OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Demon 997]

I feel like I'm missing the point on this one. What's Durkon planning?

[Saint Jimmy]

I feel like I'm missing the point on this one. What's Durkon planning?

He's probably distracting the spirit from his real plan, whatever that is.

[hroþila]

I feel sorry for vampires. Their early existence is nothing but frustration, disgust and boredom.

[Auburn Bright]

Not often that I laugh before opening the comic. Nice title.

[andreas002]

"For you, the day Durkula graced your temple was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday."

[mouser9169]

Go Durkon! Love these campground scenes (reminds me of DBZ).

Also, seems Durkula and Xykon have something in common - neither are disgusting biophiliacs.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I feel like I'm missing the point on this one. What's Durkon planning?

First rule of main characters' plans: if we got told in advance (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnspokenPlanGuarantee), it wouldn't work. We'll only see what he was planning when it comes to fruition.

GW

[IntelectPaladin]

Well done, Mr. Burlew. Well done.

[ThatNickGuy]

I am seriously loving this sassier Durkon.

[cobaltstarfire]

The threat of an extended pus squeezin' montage really got a good giggle out of me.

[Alaska Fan]

Love to see Greg being led around by Durkon. And now Durkon has yet another way to distract and mislead.

[Talion]

And now I'm wondering what in the name of Thor's Unsanitary Ear Canal could have gotten around that good ol' "+2 vs Poisoning" to give Durkon "Food Poisoning" :smallwink:

[Anarion]

I wonder if Durkon is trying to make the vampire more like him. It's an evil spirit, but it's still a thinking creature and the two are linked in a way that allows Durkon the ability to influence the vampire (if not actually make it do anything). So, show it a lot of memories and see if its opinions are as strong as it thinks.

[georgie_leech]

Whether this is a part of Durkon's overarching master plan (now there's a phrase I never expected to type), nothing wrong with a bit of perfectly petty obstruction :smallamused: Go Durkon!:smallbiggrin:

[Kantaki]

Durkon! That was as disgusting as it was awesome!
Keep up the good work.:smallbiggrin:


"For you, the day Durkula graced your temple was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday."

Are you sure you don't mean razed your temple?:smalltongue:

[ti'esar]

I feel sorry for vampires. Their early existence is nothing but frustration, disgust and boredom.

I'd feel a lot sorrier for the vampire if he wasn't such an utter jerk. Even Xykon seems like a more personable dude.

Though on the other hand, if he finds this gross, I do wonder how he's going to be able to handle Durkon's memories of puberty at all.

[Basement Cat]

Greg's been in Durkon's head for weeks...but now Durkon is learning how to get into Greg's head. He nearly made a Vampire spirit barf! Go Durkon.

I've a fear that Durkon's mother is going to show up and things may turn badly for her. :smalleek:

[King of Nowhere]

Well, durkon is certainly being resourceful with his limited resources. I've never expected that from him. Seems like some character development. I wonder if he'll become a more powerful cleric afterwards

[woweedd]

Hmmm...On the one hand, i'm not a fan of crusde scantological humor. On the other hand, some good writing and a hilarious pun in the title. Yeah, this is good.

[2D8HP]

"thar's six more hours o' me runnin' ta the can an' ye'll haf ta smell ev'ry minute o' it"


:biggrin:

I'm so going to use that line ar work!

Thank you sincerely Mr. Burlew!

[woweedd]

I feel sorry for vampires. Their early existence is nothing but frustration, disgust and boredom.
To be fair, given that they're physical embodiments of Evil who are puppeteering another person's body against their will and are just generally monstrous in more ways than one...They deserve everything they get.

[2D8HP]

.They deserve everything they get.


Except existence.

[FallenFallcrest]

I'm still thinking that Durkon has something else planned. The title of the last comic doesn't seem like it would be a red-herring.

[ThePhantasm]

I feel like I'm missing the point on this one. What's Durkon planning?

Pretty sure its nothing more than what it says on the tin: keeping Durkula away from innocents while stalling until Roy can get there.

He probably has some other plans for helping Roy fight Durkula, but that's it for the moment.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

The look of horror on the vampire spirit's face--! :smallbiggrin:

Also 'I told you about the hall because I know it's empty and there's no one you can kill there' is very thoughtful of Durkon. :smallsmile:

[hroþila]

To be fair, given that they're physical embodiments of Evil who are puppeteering another person's body against their will and are just generally monstrous in more ways than one...They deserve everything they get.
But they're still free-willed creatures, and they didn't have a say in the whole puppeteering thing either. It's like blaming a parasite for being parasitic.

You wouldn't want to be so mean to this cute little thing, would you?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/74/a6/19/74a619b8a5db9bd5f563a0cbfe622de2.jpg

[Peelee]

I feel sorry for vampires. Their early existence is nothing but frustration, disgust and boredom.

Imean, same for humans, but we're just not conscious enough to realize it at the time.

[Riftwolf]

Interesting; Durkon can't withhold information, but can give more information than he needs to. I'd forgotten this detail from the beginning of the current book. And it appears to have worked in preventing the vampire from interrogating him further; the vampire isn't privy to everything, like thought processes, so has to demand them. I've a feeling the 'you didn't know the right questions to ask' will be Phyrnglsnyx's downfall.

[Ironsmith]

As usual, Greg completely misses the point. :smalltongue: Given how often something like this happens, I have to wonder if vampires even have a concept of "selflessness". Malack and Greg both provide examples of vampires who willingly subordinate themselves to another, but as Malack himself said earlier in the story...

"Through service, we are rewarded. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html)"

Malack's was not a devotion to his deity, he was still ultimately in the game for himself, similar to Qarr... he found someone much bigger and more powerful than himself and glued his lips to their ass.

And here, we see Greg has repeatedly failed to see why Durkon behaves the way he does, and is generally quick to dismiss it if Durkon stops to explain himself. Even here, the only conclusion he can come to on his own is that Durkon might be "plotting something", like his own release... not that he might have willingly surrendered information to keep the death toll down.

The Exarch seems to be on a similar train of thought... he dismissed his host's decision to abandon an abundant lifestyle to become a cleric as "going to worship rocks", which he expressed extreme disdain for. From a purely selfish standpoint, that would make sense... the Exarch basically would've been set for life if he hadn't altered course. Instead going and making himself a subordinate to something that can't, on its own, offer something in return for services rendered would definitely seem like, bare minimum, a stupid decision... but if the Exarch's goal was ultimately to help people, or even just the Neutral goal of finding spiritual satisfaction, it's a good thing for him to do. And again, he's sucking up to Greg, by calling him a "great leader" in spite of all evidence to the contrary (do we know for sure if Durkon is/was of a higher level than the Exarch? That'd lend more to this whole thing...)

Now, most of the other vampires haven't been on-panel long enough to establish much in the way of character, but the pattern certainly seems to hold...

[137beth]

I love the call-back to the first Durkon-memory in the book:smallsmile:

[Silverblob5]

Haven't been around for a long time, but I felt it needed to be said:

Garlic.

[137beth]

First rule of main characters' plans: if we got told in advance (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnspokenPlanGuarantee), it wouldn't work. We'll only see what he was planning when it comes to fruition.

GW
You...why was that a link to TVTropes when there is a perfectly good OOTS link to use instead? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html):smalltongue:

[SilverCacaobean]

Yeah, eat pus memories Greg!

I'm starting to really like Durkon's relatives and family friends. Durkon's memories are going to be my favourite part of this book. I almost feel sad we'll only get to see them in this book. I also can't help feeling that the next time Durkon sees his mother won't end well...

[danielxcutter]

And Durkon scores again!

[PhantomFox]

Tuesday is the night before the holy day? I would have thought the holy day was Thorsday, not Wednesday...
Hmm...

[Fuzzypickles]

Tuesday is the night before the holy day? I would have thought the holy day was Thorsday, not Wednesday...
Hmm...

For Odin's followers, Wednesday is the holy day. Durkon specifically mentions Odin.

[danielxcutter]

Tuesday is the night before the holy day? I would have thought the holy day was Thorsday, not Wednesday...
Hmm...

They were Odin worshipers. Wednesday is named after Woden, or Odin IIRC.

Edit: Ninja'd.

[Ironsmith]

Tuesday is the night before the holy day? I would have thought the holy day was Thorsday, not Wednesday...
Hmm...

Yes, but it's Odin's day, so naturally he comes before Thor... :smalltongue:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hah! I love that weapon that Durkon now has in its arsenal against the High Priest of Hel. Also, still loving these flashbacks. Poor Sigdi. :smallfrown:

[Talion]

Tuesday is the night before the holy day? I would have thought the holy day was Thorsday, not Wednesday...
Hmm...

Wednesday is Odin's holy day (The name is derived from Old English Wōdnesdæg and Middle English Wednesdei, "day of Woden", reflecting the pre-Christian religion practiced by the Anglo-Saxons.) So Tuesday would be the day before Odin's holy day (and the hall owners are worshipers of Odin)

Edit: So many forum ninjas!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You...why was that a link to TVTropes when there is a perfectly good OOTS link to use instead? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html):smalltongue:

"Give a man one example, and he is entertained for a day. Get a man hooked up with tvtropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WikiWalk), and they are entertained for a lifetime (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife)".


Tuesday is the night before the holy day? I would have thought the holy day was Thorsday, not Wednesday...
Hmm...

It's a meeting hall of Odin's followers, not Thor's.

GW

[DougTheHead]

Interesting how Durkula's utter lack of empathy continues to be foregrounded. He doesn't seem to realize that Durkon is focusing on others more than himself because Durkon is more interested in helping others than he is in how he was feeling in a particular moment. At the same time, Durkula is right that it's caused Durkon to be more passive than he would otherwise be...

Really, if Rich has a constant stance on the nature of good vs. evil, it's that Good learns from its mistakes while Evil repeats them (though that could be an accident of dramatic necessity). I'm interested to see where he takes this.

[Fortis]

Something tells me that Durkon just passed an important bluff check. And used the gross memory to thrown the vampire off his train of thought.

[Gift Jeraff]

Tuesday is the night before the holy day? I would have thought the holy day was Thorsday, not Wednesday...
Hmm...

In that same sentence Durkon says the hall owners are Odin-worshipers, though I'm not sure why Odin's church would consider wetness holy...

[Ironsmith]

Really, if Rich has a constant stance on the nature of good vs. evil, it's that Good learns from its mistakes while Evil repeats them (though that could be an accident of dramatic necessity). I'm interested to see where he takes this.

Really, I would argue that it's a question of "acts in own interests" versus "acts in another's interests".

Good: Acts in other's interests, even to the detriment of their own.
Neutral: Acts on own interests, except where it conflicts with others, or acts on others interests, except where it conflicts with their own.
Evil: Acts on their own interests, even when it's a detriment to others.

Of course, as Rich has said before, alignments are guidelines, not straightjackets... An evil character can still be selfless once in awhile, and a good character can still be selfish every now and then. The relative dominance of these attitudes is what determines their alignment.

[Hiro Quester]

Garlic. I smell garlic coming.

Vampires are repelled by it, according to SRD.

I thought that was what the smell was going to be when Durkula smelled it.

Perhaps the mess hall serves garlic bread on Tuesdays (Dwarves might never change such a routine), so all the people there will be armed with a way to keep them at bay?

[woweedd]

In that same sentence Durkon says the hall owners are Odin-worshipers, though I'm not sure why Odin's church would consider wetness holy...
Wednesday is actually named after Odin, just as Thursday is named after Thor. In certain traditions, Odin as known as Woden. Hence, Woden's Day, hence, Wednesday.

[Hiro Quester]

Ooh. Tuesday is named for the Germanic god of law, heroic glory, and war (according to Wikipedia's entry on Tyr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Týr)).

And Tyr is god of war in the Godsmoot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) voting.

So perhaps if it's Tuesday, the hall is nowadays filled with the city's finest Tyr-worshipping warrior Fearless Vampire Hunters?

[Ron Miel]

For Odin's followers, Wednesday is the holy day. Durkon specifically mentions Odin.

This confused me too. I always thought that Odin and Woden were different gods. I just looked it up and now I know differently.

[King of Nowhere]

On the other hand, it may have been safer to direct the vampires to kill some people. that way, they would die with honor, and if hel wins they would at least be spared.

then again, durkon is a supporter, and supporters tend to be trusting; it would be hard to devoting all your skills to helping someone else if yoou don't trust that someone else to then do a good job with what you're giving him.

[woweedd]

On the other hand, it may have been safer to direct the vampires to kill some people. that way, they would die with honor, and if hel wins they would at least be spared.

then again, durkon is a supporter, and supporters tend to be trusting; it would be hard to devoting all your skills to helping someone else if yoou don't trust that someone else to then do a good job with what you're giving him.
I DO NOT like what that logical chain implies. Seriously, you sound like Eugene , with his "Have every dwarf on the planet throw themselves at a dragon." solution.

[Jay R]

And now I'm wondering what in the name of Thor's Unsanitary Ear Canal could have gotten around that good ol' "+2 vs Poisoning" to give Durkon "Food Poisoning" :smallwink:

http://orig14.deviantart.net/804d/f/2007/258/7/4/3d_d20___1_by_boulayo.jpg

[TheBeggarDwarf]

Though I feel like the reason Durkon is directing Greg towards the banquet hall is probably for the reason he gives, I do wonder if there might be enchantments that come into play only on Odin's holy day. Perhaps a hallow effect, or something like that. I know there's no indication that banquet hall has any other significance to their religion other than being owned by Odin's followers, but I could see it. It would trap the vampires in the room, weaken them against turning attempts, and prevent any other victims from immediately being turned into undead. Just a thought.

[Talion]

http://orig14.deviantart.net/804d/f/2007/258/7/4/3d_d20___1_by_boulayo.jpg

Ah, probability, thou art a cruel and fickle mistress.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Hey, someone finally found a use for those horrid memories of puberty!

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Durkon isn't a spectator in his life just because he's not always the center of attention. One can have many roles at many points in life. People and dwarves are social animals.

Without the men who worked the off-stage microphones, Rocky would have been a silent movie. Without the citizenry, a nation is nothing. Without someone to make the tools and dig the marble from the Earth, there is no Michelangelo's David.

Humility doesn't make you think less of yourself, it helps you thinks less about yourself. There are other, valid things on which one can focus, things that are not "me".

So shut up, you parasitic soul-snatcher, because you aren't alive and never will be. You don't understand life at all. You're a mirror to it, but mirrors get everything backwards.

[danielxcutter]

Durkon isn't a spectator in his life just because he's not always the center of attention. One can have many roles at many points in life. People and dwarves are social animals.

Without the men who worked the off-stage microphones, Rocky would have been a silent movie. Without the citizenry, a nation is nothing. Without someone to make the tools and dig the marble from the Earth, there is no Michelangelo's David.

Humility doesn't make you think less of yourself, it helps you thinks less about yourself. There are other, valid things on which one can focus, things that are not "me".

So shut up, you parasitic soul-searching, because you aren't alive and never will be. You don't understand life at all. You're a mirror to it, but mirrors get everything backwards.

That's... actually super neat. Can I sig this?

[Ironsmith]

Durkon isn't a spectator in his life just because he's not always the center of attention. One can have many roles at many points in life. People and dwarves are social animals.

Without the men who worked the off-stage microphones, Rocky would have been a silent movie. Without the citizenry, a nation is nothing. Without someone to make the tools and dig the marble from the Earth, there is no Michelangelo's David.

Humility doesn't make you think less of yourself, it helps you thinks less about yourself. There are other, valid things on which one can focus, things that are not "me".

So shut up, you parasitic soul-snatcher, because you aren't alive and never will be. You don't understand life at all. You're a mirror to it, but mirrors get everything backwards.

I'm convinced this will be at least part of Durkon's "You were always going to lose" speech to Greg.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Certainly, Danielxcutter. :smallredface:

Just, please, fix the mistake my auto-correct made in changing, "soul-snatcher" to, "soul-searching".:smalltongue:

[B. Dandelion]

It took me a minute to realize Durkon must have switched to a different memory at the end rather than having merely left the old memory running like a movie in the background, and had been wondering why in the world the dwarves in the dwarven hall had been eating human food in the first place.

[KorvinStarmast]

And now I'm wondering what in the name of Thor's Unsanitary Ear Canal could have gotten around that good ol' "+2 vs Poisoning" to give Durkon "Food Poisoning" :smallwink: Bad oysters.

Though on the other hand, if he finds this gross, I do wonder how he's going to be able to handle Durkon's memories of puberty at all. I see what you did there.

Cents Ability. Nice. :smallbiggrin:

[martianmister]

In that same sentence Durkon says the hall owners are Odin-worshipers, though I'm not sure why Odin's church would consider wetness holy...

As a sky god, Odin is the god of wet air and humidity. It's not a coincidence that the god of storms and thunder is his son. Seems legit, isn't it?

[Fish]

Durkon has now established an all-purpose excuse for any omissions he makes in the future.

[h0m3st4r]

That food poisoning memory made me snicker far more than I should have.

[dtilque]

Wednesday is Odin's holy day (The name is derived from Old English Wōdnesdæg and Middle English Wednesdei, "day of Woden", reflecting the pre-Christian religion practiced by the Anglo-Saxons.) So Tuesday would be the day before Odin's holy day (and the hall owners are worshipers of Odin)

Just so anyone doesn't get the wrong idea, Wednesday was not sacred to Odin/Woden in the Germanic/Norse religion. The Germanic peoples didn't even have an equivalent to the week before they borrowed it from the Romans. This is something Burlew added for his northern religion.

[ManuelSacha]

People and dwarves
Dwarves are people, too. :smalltongue:
In the playground, or elsewhere.

[Talion]

Just so anyone doesn't get the wrong idea, Wednesday was not sacred to Odin/Woden in the Germanic/Norse religion. The Germanic peoples didn't even have an equivalent to the week before they borrowed it from the Romans. This is something Burlew added for his northern religion.

Right, right, use that post for etymological reference for the joke/plot point, not as a societal/religious reference. My bad on the clarity.

EDIT: However, that does bring up an interesting in-universe point. Odin's followers take Tuesday (night) and presumably Wednesday off. Thor followers presumably follow a similar methodology with Thursday, and so on for the rest of the relevant pantheon. That must have some interesting effects on Dwarf society if there aren't set 'weekends' that a majority of businesses follow. "Och, best be gettin' to tha beer master 'fore they close. Can't afford ta run outta tha fer two days."

...Then again, as long as its consistent in its cycling I'm sure they could cope to it.

[a_flemish_guy]

wasn't the wintersoltice the sacred day for odin?

I know santa claus was based on him bringing gifts down to earth then

[DougTheHead]

Really, I would argue that it's a question of "acts in own interests" versus "acts in another's interests".

Good: Acts in other's interests, even to the detriment of their own.
Neutral: Acts on own interests, except where it conflicts with others, or acts on others interests, except where it conflicts with their own.
Evil: Acts on their own interests, even when it's a detriment to others.

Of course, as Rich has said before, alignments are guidelines, not straightjackets... An evil character can still be selfless once in awhile, and a good character can still be selfish every now and then. The relative dominance of these attitudes is what determines their alignment.

That's closer to the more classic idea of "Good vs. Evil," but I think if you go through the characters in OOTS, the thing that sticks out the most is that the good characters learn from their mistakes and evolve while the evil characters repeat the same patterns until it causes them to screw up and lose somehow. Nale keeps lashing out from the same resentments until he dies from doing so, Tsukiko keeps believing that control=love until it kills her, Miko keeps jumping to conclusions until she jumps to one that leads to her death. There's hints that something similar is happening to Redcloak, as his obsession with a goblin republic seems to be taking a hard swerve into dictatorship just as he leaves. Meanwhile, V, Roy, Haley, and the others can all do selfish or shortsighted things, but they learn from them and change their behavior accordingly--even Belkar does this, right when he's at a point where repeating his previous bad behavior would have led to him getting abandoned and possibly killed.

I'd need to go through it in further detail to confirm/modify the basic theory, but the morality Rich has set up (leaving aside the alignment system) suggests that the heart of goodness is about growth and self-recognition, and the differences between Durkon and Durkula seem to confirm this.

[BriarHobbit]

I am not persuaded that an undead creature would be bothered by a bad smell, but I still enjoyed the comic.

[Cazero]

That's closer to the more classic idea of "Good vs. Evil," but I think if you go through the characters in OOTS, the thing that sticks out the most is that the good characters learn from their mistakes and evolve while the evil characters repeat the same patterns until it causes them to screw up and lose somehow. Nale keeps lashing out from the same resentments until he dies from doing so, Tsukiko keeps believing that control=love until it kills her, Miko keeps jumping to conclusions until she jumps to one that leads to her death. There's hints that something similar is happening to Redcloak, as his obsession with a goblin republic seems to be taking a hard swerve into dictatorship just as he leaves. Meanwhile, V, Roy, Haley, and the others can all do selfish or shortsighted things, but they learn from them and change their behavior accordingly--even Belkar does this, right when he's at a point where repeating his previous bad behavior would have led to him getting abandoned and possibly killed.

I'd need to go through it in further detail to confirm/modify the basic theory, but the morality Rich has set up (leaving aside the alignment system) suggests that the heart of goodness is about growth and self-recognition, and the differences between Durkon and Durkula seem to confirm this.
Well, Miko was Good and altruistic to the very end while Belkar remains an immoral murderer with very little redeeming qualities, so the divide you are pointing seem to be more of a protagonist/antagonist axis.

[Avianmosquito]

And now I'm wondering what in the name of Thor's Unsanitary Ear Canal could have gotten around that good ol' "+2 vs Poisoning" to give Durkon "Food Poisoning" :smallwink:

A natural 1?

[Onyavar]

And the day that the comic was published was... a Tuesday. Perfect!


Tuesday is the night before the holy day? I would have thought the holy day was Thorsday, not Wednesday...
Hmm...

Wednesday is Odin's holy day (The name is derived from Old English Wōdnesdæg and Middle English Wednesdei, "day of Woden", reflecting the pre-Christian religion practiced by the Anglo-Saxons.) So Tuesday would be the day before Odin's holy day (and the hall owners are worshipers of Odin)


Just so anyone doesn't get the wrong idea, Wednesday was not sacred to Odin/Woden in the Germanic/Norse religion. The Germanic peoples didn't even have an equivalent to the week before they borrowed it from the Romans. This is something Burlew added for his northern religion.


Right, right, use that post for etymological reference for the joke/plot point, not as a societal/religious reference. My bad on the clarity.

EDIT: However, that does bring up an interesting in-universe point. Odin's followers take Tuesday (night) and presumably Wednesday off. Thor followers presumably follow a similar methodology with Thursday, and so on for the rest of the relevant pantheon. That must have some interesting effects on Dwarf society if there aren't set 'weekends' that a majority of businesses follow. "Och, best be gettin' to tha beer master 'fore they close. Can't afford ta run outta tha fer two days."

...Then again, as long as its consistent in its cycling I'm sure they could cope to it.

Great conversation here.

ALL weekdays are celebrations of ancient Roman/Germanic deities:

Sunday - obvious, it's the day of the Sun, or Sunna in OotSverse (or, in christian times, the Lord).
Monday - obvious again, it's the day of the Moon, or Mani in OotSverse. In Roman languages, it's Luna's day.
Tuesday - not entirely obvious, but this is Tyr's day, also called Ziu, Ciw, Tio. In Roman languages, it's Mars' day.
Wednesday - is, as was pointed out, Wodan's day, also called Odin. In Roman languages, it's Mercur's day, as these two gods were considered equivalent.
Thursday - obviously Thor's day. In Roman languages, it's Jupiter's day, again, these two were seen as equivalent.
Friday - seems obvious but isn't. Freya is well known today as a goddess of fertility, but most historians are stating that it's Frigg's day. Frigg, also called Frija was once better known, and weirdly considered to be equivalent to Venus (it's Venus' day in Roman languages). However, some historians believe that Freya is a mythological offshoot of Frija, so both goddesses might actually be the same.
Saturday - was the day of the ancient Roman god Saturn, and I really have no clue why there wasn't a germanic god(dess) to take care of that day.

[The MunchKING]

Human food bad enough to overcome that Racial +2 Poison Resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0083.html)?

That had to be some REALLY bad stuff...

[Ruck]

And the day that the comic was published was... a Tuesday. Perfect!
Well, it was still Monday where Rich is.

[Samzat]

To add on to that, Tarquin keeps trying to assert himself as the big bad and put Elan as the leader, which leads to him being stranded in the desert anticlimatically (for hin that is worse than death) and having a breakdown, Kobuta is obsessed with a title that garuntees a nonexistent throne and his belief that he is the chessmaster, but in revealing his next plan thinking that there is nothing the order can do about it. Xykon believes himself untouchable and that hubris prevents him from putting in any effort to defeat the party that is catching up to him level-wise and location-wise. Generally speaking villains also tend to intentionally conform to tropes. Xykon hams it up, Tsukiko conformed to insane evil chick trope, Kobuta tried to be the chessmaster, Tarquin wanted to be a chessmaster and an evil overlord, and Nale styled himself a bond villain (if you dont believe that last one remember what Girard's Phantasm showed him). Redcloak breaks the mold somewhat, leading me to believe he has a chance of redeeming and allowing a peaceful resolution for the goblinoids and the other races. (Also the point about the republic is debatable because it never really seemsed like the plan was a republic).
Edit: this is a reply to DougTheHead's comment, i forgot to quote

[Avianmosquito]

Well, it was still Monday where Rich is.

He probably figured most people wouldn't read it until tomorrow, given the time of day.

[Quebbster]

Right, right, use that post for etymological reference for the joke/plot point, not as a societal/religious reference. My bad on the clarity.

EDIT: However, that does bring up an interesting in-universe point. Odin's followers take Tuesday (night) and presumably Wednesday off. Thor followers presumably follow a similar methodology with Thursday, and so on for the rest of the relevant pantheon. That must have some interesting effects on Dwarf society if there aren't set 'weekends' that a majority of businesses follow. "Och, best be gettin' to tha beer master 'fore they close. Can't afford ta run outta tha fer two days."

...Then again, as long as its consistent in its cycling I'm sure they could cope to it.
A smart employer would employ both Thor- and Odin-worshippers so there was Always someone who could keep the shop open while the others were off celebrating their holy day.

Saturday - was the day of the ancient Roman god Saturn, and I really have no clue why there wasn't a germanic god(dess) to take care of that day.
In Scandinavia the day Before Sunday is called "lördag" (Swedish Spelling, but the name is the same in Danish, Norwegian and Icelandic), which means "washing up-day". Scandinavians were big fans of personal hygiene even in the first millenium, the English less so. Apparently there were complaints from Englishmen living in the Danelaw that the English Girls all prefered Viking suitors... possibly because they were better groomed.

[Quebbster]

He probably figured most people wouldn't read it until tomorrow, given the time of day.

It's also quite possible he just put the comic up when it was done without giving too much thought about what day of the week it was. :smalltongue:

[Talion]

Great conversation here.

ALL weekdays are celebrations of ancient Roman/Germanic deities:

Sunday - obvious, it's the day of the Sun, or Sunna in OotSverse (or, in christian times, the Lord).
Monday - obvious again, it's the day of the Moon, or Mani in OotSverse. In Roman languages, it's Luna's day.
Tuesday - not entirely obvious, but this is Tyr's day, also called Ziu, Ciw, Tio. In Roman languages, it's Mars' day.
Wednesday - is, as was pointed out, Wodan's day, also called Odin. In Roman languages, it's Mercur's day, as these two gods were considered equivalent.
Thursday - obviously Thor's day. In Roman languages, it's Jupiter's day, again, these two were seen as equivalent.
Friday - seems obvious but isn't. Freya is well known today as a goddess of fertility, but most historians are stating that it's Frigg's day. Frigg, also called Frija was once better known, and weirdly considered to be equivalent to Venus (it's Venus' day in Roman languages). However, some historians believe that Freya is a mythological offshoot of Frija, so both goddesses might actually be the same.
Saturday - was the day of the ancient Roman god Saturn, and I really have no clue why there wasn't a germanic god(dess) to take care of that day.

So, in other words, until further notice, everyone in Dwarfland is open for business on Saturday. :smallbiggrin:

[Hopeless]

Oh he's trying to annoy his vampiric self into stopping using him to research what defences his settlement has!

Wasn't it the High Priest of Odin who was responsible for exiling Durkon?

So maybe Durkula thinks it's for revenge so doesn't question Durkon's motives too much?

[Unoriginal]

So, do you think there are some Tyr worshippers guarding the place on Tuesday?

[Hopeless]

Did they convert any of their dwarven lunch?

[warmachine]

I suspect what Durkon is hiding is the tactic of stopping the vampires killing anyone else. When the OotS party does arrive, there'll still be reinforcements to tackle the lower level vampires. The disgusting biological memories discourage any further interrogation or analysis that could reveal the deception.

[Skourge]

Just a guess on Durkon's plan
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
He's bringing Durkula, priest of Hel, in Odin's banquet hall, that could easily be a sacred place (more beer!)
At midnight it will start Odin's sacred day
Roy will arrive just before midnight
Connect the dots

[Quebbster]

Did they convert any of their dwarven lunch?

Most likely not. Greg used his staff to insta-vamp the Creed of Stone, but the staff was left behind at the godsmoot and then destroyed.

[Kardwill]

Saturday - was the day of the ancient Roman god Saturn, and I really have no clue why there wasn't a germanic god(dess) to take care of that day.

Never noticed the engish name for the days were mostly from the germanic gods. You learn something every day :)

The weird stuff is that while my language kept most of the roman gods names (Lundi for Luna, Mardi for Mars, Mercredi for Mercure, Jeudi for Jupiter, Vendredi for Venus...), the one we changed (Samedi) is the only Roman god the germanics kept (saturday).

[goto124]

Perhaps the mess hall serves garlic bread on Tuesdays (Dwarves might never change such a routine), so all the people there will be armed with a way to keep them at bay?

The vampires returns with cloth pegs on their noses :smallbiggrin:


Though on the other hand, if he finds this gross, I do wonder how he's going to be able to handle Durkon's memories of puberty at all.

How do you say "I need to install a lock on the bathroom door" in Dwarvish?

[schmunzel]

I wonder if Durkon is trying to make the vampire more like him. It's an evil spirit, but it's still a thinking creature and the two are linked in a way that allows Durkon the ability to influence the vampire (if not actually make it do anything). So, show it a lot of memories and see if its opinions are as strong as it thinks.

I do think that the way it works is that the evil energy spirit is formed and educated by the exact same experiences that form the original host (in this case durkon).
This eans that the vampire (*Durkula, Greg whatever) relives the live of durkon exactly the way it happened.
Only the *result* the way the memories are interpreted and form the vampire leads to a completely different result or *person*, as the vampire has a completely different way to experience / see the world. (negative energy spirit)

So Durkon in extension cannot make the vampire like him, but he seems to be able to affect the vampires' behaviour by having him consciously *and* unconsciously reacting to his memories.
unconsciously means that as a negative energy spirit he does not seem to be able to grasp or understand *good emotions* - things like friendship / warmth / loyality whereas he seems to thrive on bad feelings like hate and fear.

Durkon is pulling the vampires nose mostly by distracting him with memories whose impact he is not understanding.
Durkon is proud to serve Thor and his people. His (extended) family is proud of him. They stand together and help each other.
That is who Durkon is. His Parasite is the exact opposite.
The parasite rejects these memories and thus casts them and their meaning aside.
The true meaning of these memories might be to remind Durkon who he is fighting for. Perhaps the main weapon by which the parasite supresses the host is desperation. And now Durkon gains the strength to eventually break free from its control when he is hit by Roy with the news that he was free to return to dwarven lands. The truth always has a use!
How a freed Durkon soul might wrestle control of its body back will remain to be seen.

sch

[schmunzel]

As usual, Greg completely misses the point. :smalltongue: Given how often something like this happens, I have to wonder if vampires even have a concept of "selflessness". Malack and Greg both provide examples of vampires who willingly subordinate themselves to another, but as Malack himself said earlier in the story...

"Through service, we are rewarded. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html)"

Malack's was not a devotion to his deity, he was still ultimately in the game for himself, similar to Qarr... he found someone much bigger and more powerful than himself and glued his lips to their ass.

And here, we see Greg has repeatedly failed to see why Durkon behaves the way he does, and is generally quick to dismiss it if Durkon stops to explain himself. Even here, the only conclusion he can come to on his own is that Durkon might be "plotting something", like his own release... not that he might have willingly surrendered information to keep the death toll down.

The Exarch seems to be on a similar train of thought... he dismissed his host's decision to abandon an abundant lifestyle to become a cleric as "going to worship rocks", which he expressed extreme disdain for. From a purely selfish standpoint, that would make sense... the Exarch basically would've been set for life if he hadn't altered course. Instead going and making himself a subordinate to something that can't, on its own, offer something in return for services rendered would definitely seem like, bare minimum, a stupid decision... but if the Exarch's goal was ultimately to help people, or even just the Neutral goal of finding spiritual satisfaction, it's a good thing for him to do. And again, he's sucking up to Greg, by calling him a "great leader" in spite of all evidence to the contrary (do we know for sure if Durkon is/was of a higher level than the Exarch? That'd lend more to this whole thing...)

Now, most of the other vampires haven't been on-panel long enough to establish much in the way of character, but the pattern certainly seems to hold...

I do not think its a "sucking up". The Vampire is the opposite. Durkon is everything but certainly *not* a leader (I talk of the view of his self not the reception or the metaanalysis of his abilities- thats a different discussion). So Durkula* is the contrary (he wants to lead - its important for him).
The exarch might have been exarch because he was a narural born leader of men (dwarves) and he wanted to lead his flock - so his negative energy equivalent seems to be servil.

His mastering attitude towards inanimate objects (open you unobidient door its YOUR place in existance) comes from the original exarchs world view where inanimate objects (like stone) wrere the original exarchs master while he was their servant.

so orig exarch leader (master) of the creed - servant to inanimate object (Stone) will get follower of a master and wants to be master of inanimate objects whereas
Durkon servant to his people (dwarves his family, the order, Roy) wants to master Roy and the order and followers in general.

I agree with the view that Hel is a means to this end. He gives a fig for Hel and her plans other than it hurts the dwarves.

sch

[Centaur]

Never noticed the engish name for the days were mostly from the germanic gods. You learn something every day :)

The weird stuff is that while my language kept most of the roman gods names (Lundi for Luna, Mardi for Mars, Mercredi for Mercure, Jeudi for Jupiter, Vendredi for Venus...), the one we changed (Samedi) is the only Roman god the germanics kept (saturday).

Heh. Now consider Japanese.

nichiyoubi — Sun weekday
getsuyoubi — Moon weekday
kayoubi — Fire weekday
suiyoubi — Water weekday
mokuyoubi — Wood weekday
kinyoubi — Metal weekday
doyoubi — Earth weekday

Sun and Moon are the same as European, but the rest seems completely different? Look at the planets (from the Sun outwards, skipping Earth):

(Mercury) suisei — Water star
(Venus) kinsei — Metal star
(Mars) kasei — Fire star
(Jupiter) mokusei — Wood star
(Saturn) dosei — Earth star
(Uranus) tennousei — Heaven king star
(Neptune) kaiousei — Sea king star
(Pluto) meiousei — Dark king star

The Japanese mapping of weekdays to elements to planets is the same as the European mapping of weekdays to gods to planets. Curious, huh?

[Unoriginal]

At midnight it will start Odin's sacred day

Well-spotted, but to be fair Hel said "before midnight" not "a few instants before"

In any case, it's probably Odin's clergy will come to prepare the hall and see the battle, ruining the vampire surprise


Never noticed the engish name for the days were mostly from the germanic gods. You learn something every day :)

The weird stuff is that while my language kept most of the roman gods names (Lundi for Luna, Mardi for Mars, Mercredi for Mercure, Jeudi for Jupiter, Vendredi for Venus...), the one we changed (Samedi) is the only Roman god the germanics kept (saturday).


It's because England kept being invaded by Germanic people well after than France had settled on the "let's claim we are the heirs of the glorious Roman Empire" idea.

[factotum]

It's because England kept being invaded by Germanic people well after than France had settled on the "let's claim we are the heirs of the glorious Roman Empire" idea.

There was a fairly major invasion by the French (well, the Normans, who were technically not French, but you know what I mean) that changed the language significantly, which is why English uses different terms for the meat of an animal than the animal itself--the Anglo-Saxon peasants looking after the herds still used their own names for them, while the Norman overlords who ate the meat used the old French names for them. Over the years both these got converted into modern English, so we eat beef from cows and pork from pigs.

[DigoDragon]

*fastens his seatbelt*

Alright! Bring on the montage!!

[goto124]

*fastens his seatbelt*

Alright! Bring on the montage!!

I'll get the paper bags!

[Unoriginal]

There was a fairly major invasion by the French (well, the Normans, who were technically not French, but you know what I mean) that changed the language significantly, which is why English uses different terms for the meat of an animal than the animal itself--the Anglo-Saxon peasants looking after the herds still used their own names for them, while the Norman overlords who ate the meat used the old French names for them. Over the years both these got converted into modern English, so we eat beef from cows and pork from pigs.

I know that. I'm just saying the Germanic influence was more recent than the Latin one, even if the French influence had its effect after.

Also the Normans were French, including "technically", even if they descended from Norse men.

[KorvinStarmast]

EDIT: However, that does bring up an interesting in-universe point. Odin's followers take Tuesday (night) and presumably Wednesday off. Thor followers presumably follow a similar methodology with Thursday, and so on for the rest of the relevant pantheon. That must have some interesting effects on Dwarf society if there aren't set 'weekends' that a majority of businesses follow. "Och, best be gettin' to tha beer master 'fore they close. Can't afford ta run outta tha fer two days." This means that there's always a bar/tavern open somewhere. :smallbiggrin:


Also the Normans were French, including "technically", even if they descended from Norse men. A mix.

[johnbragg]

I feel like I'm missing the point on this one. What's Durkon planning?

It's actually possible that Durkon's plan is the one out in the open--save the lives of a handful of dwarves, and trust in his allies to stop Greg.

[JumboWheat01]

When you can gross out a being of negative energy, I think you're doing good. Almost feel sorry for Greg. Also wonder what happens to all that blood he intakes if none of it gets expelled...

[dtilque]

I am not persuaded that an undead creature would be bothered by a bad smell, but I still enjoyed the comic.

The undead creature is not smelling a bad smell. He's remembering a living being smelling a bad smell.




Wednesday - is, as was pointed out, Wodan's day, also called Odin. In Roman languages, it's Mercur's day, as these two gods were considered equivalent.

I've never read a convincing reason the Romans equated Woden to Mercury. By all logic, Woden should have been considered the equivalent of Jupiter, both being the chief god of their pantheon.



Thursday - obviously Thor's day. In Roman languages, it's Jupiter's day, again, these two were seen as equivalent.

If Woden does not equal Jupiter, then it makes sense that Thor is. Both are gods of thunder and lightning.



Saturday - was the day of the ancient Roman god Saturn, and I really have no clue why there wasn't a germanic god(dess) to take care of that day.

Saturn was the father/grandfather of the other gods (most of them, anyway) and Germanic mythology didn't have such a being.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also wonder what happens to all that blood he intakes if none of it gets expelled...

Same thing the ghouls do with the food they consume: it is 100% efficiently turned into negative energy to power them, it seems (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html).

GW

[Calemyr]

My bet, he's testing the waters to see how destructive his memories of Hilgya (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html) will be.

Greg: Urk! Wha-? I- Why would you make me watch something so disgusting?
Durkon: Figured it'd be more yer speed.
Greg: Why would I want to watch that?
Durkon: If'n tha bother ye, word of advice? Don't try readin' any stories 'bout vampires.

[zimmerwald1915]

I've never read a convincing reason the Romans equated Woden to Mercury. By all logic, Woden should have been considered the equivalent of Jupiter, both being the chief god of their pantheon.
Considering the whole idea of the surrounding peoples equating their gods to the Roman pantheon was made up by 19th century German romantic nationalist academics looking to cover themselves in reflected glory, you are correct to be dubious.

[goto124]

My bet, he's testing the waters to see how destructive his memories of Hilgya (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html) will be.

I hope MitD is an adult.

[hroþila]

Considering the whole idea of the surrounding peoples equating their gods to the Roman pantheon was made up by 19th century German romantic nationalist academics looking to cover themselves in reflected glory, you are correct to be dubious.
What? Interpretatio romana was absolutely a thing, and the names of the days of the week in the Germanic languages were absolutely borrowed from the Romans.

[dtilque]

Considering the whole idea of the surrounding peoples equating their gods to the Roman pantheon was made up by 19th century German romantic nationalist academics looking to cover themselves in reflected glory, you are correct to be dubious.

Never heard of that before and it's totally irrelevant. By the 19th century, the days of the week had been established for centuries.

It was the Romans who did the equating way back in the 1st or 2nd century BCE. They were following a longstanding tradition here. Previously there'd been the equation of Roman to Greek pantheons and Greek to Egyptian and Babylonian pantheons. There was always a considerable amount of force-fitting when this was done, but they usually managed to match up the chief gods to each other.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What? Interpretatio romana was absolutely a thing, and the names of the days of the week in the Germanic languages were absolutely borrowed from the Romans.

Did the germanic tribes even have the concept of "week" before they adopted the Roman week's size and nomenclature? It's a very weird time division in the first place, so I'd expect most cultures to not have them at all (indeed, the Romans themselves didn't until they adopted Christianity, dividing the month* into three periods counting down to the kalends, nones, and ides).

Grey Wolf

*months, on the other hand, is a perfectly logical moon-based division of time which I'd expect pretty much every culture to have an equivalent form.

[Unoriginal]

A mix.

Pretty sure they were in France for at least three generations before the battle of Hasting.


I've never read a convincing reason the Romans equated Woden to Mercury. By all logic, Woden should have been considered the equivalent of Jupiter, both being the chief god of their pantheon.

Because they're both mischievous yet very knowledgeable travelers who carry a staff

[Onyavar]

Never noticed the engish name for the days were mostly from the germanic gods. You learn something every day :)

The weird stuff is that while my language kept most of the roman gods names (Lundi for Luna, Mardi for Mars, Mercredi for Mercure, Jeudi for Jupiter, Vendredi for Venus...), the one we changed (Samedi) is the only Roman god the germanics kept (saturday).

What about "dimanche" ?


Heh. Now consider Japanese.
[...]
The Japanese mapping of weekdays to elements to planets is the same as the European mapping of weekdays to gods to planets. Curious, huh?

Yeah, that's a neat observation. Yet, I guess that the concept of "seven weekdays" only spread in other countries during the colonial era.


[about Roman/Germanic influence on English] I think it was the other way around, first the Anglo-Saxon invasion from Germany, afterwards the Norman invasion from France. After William the conqueror, there was no further (cultural) invasion to change the weekday names.



I've never read a convincing reason the Romans equated Woden to Mercury. By all logic, Woden should have been considered the equivalent of Jupiter, both being the chief god of their pantheon.

If Woden does not equal Jupiter, then it makes sense that Thor is. Both are gods of thunder and lightning.

Saturn was the father/grandfather of the other gods (most of them, anyway) and Germanic mythology didn't have such a being.

Yeah, it's confounding, until you learn HOW and WHEN these gods where equated to one another:


Odin: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin) The earliest records of the Germanic peoples were recorded by the Romans, and in these works Odin is frequently referred to—via a process known as interpretatio romana (where characteristics perceived to be similar by Romans result in identification of a non-Roman god as a Roman deity)—as the Roman god Mercury. The first clear example of this occurs in the Roman historian Tacitus's late 1st-century work Germania, where, writing about the religion of the Suebi (a confederation of Germanic peoples), he comments that "among the gods Mercury is the one they principally worship.


Considering the whole idea of the surrounding peoples equating their gods to the Roman pantheon was made up by 19th century German romantic nationalist academics looking to cover themselves in reflected glory, you are correct to be dubious.

Nope, that's not how it worked. The seven weekdays named after gods are assumed to be invented by Greek and spread via the Roman empire - or how would you explain that old-english names, and also old-german names already are distributed exactly as the roman names? And that French and Italian use the same schema? Look that up here. (https://www.crowl.org/Lawrence/time/days.html)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because they're both mischievous yet very knowledgeable travelers who carry a staff

Also have a pair of animal companions somewhat connected to death & decay? Just guessing here, but that was what first came to mind for me.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

Durkon is moving from passive-aggressive to downright aggressive. He's realized he can show Durkula memories that Durkula is not interested in, and that in fact interfere with his ability to function.

I wonder how bad human cooking must be, from a dwarves' perspective, if it actually overcomes their legendary constitution and resistance to poisoning for 6 hours?

I'm wondering what's up with Durkon showing them the hall of the Odin worshipers. Is he just trying to keep them from killing any more dwarves? Or is there something else going on? The suspense is killing me!

Durkula doesn't get that Durkon loved his mother. Evil spirit birthed in the dark halls of Hel herself, is evil. And clueless. Durkon's memories of his mother give him strength and hope to overcome adversity, and Durkula can't even begin to comprehend that he doesn't understand.

I dearly hope Rich doesn't feel that we need to see the extended pus-squeezing montage.

[factotum]

It's a very weird time division in the first place, so I'd expect most cultures to not have them at all (indeed, the Romans themselves didn't until they adopted Christianity, dividing the month* into three periods counting down to the kalends, nones, and ides).


The Babylonian calendar used seven-day weeks long before Christianity did--it's actually a reasonably useful measure, being as near as you can get to one-quarter of a lunar cycle without using fractions of days.

[Kardwill]

Pretty sure they were in France for at least three generations before the battle of Hasting.



Because they're both mischievous yet very knowledgeable travelers who carry a staff

Well, to be honest, "a mix" is a pretty accurate description of both the French and English people at the time (well, not called "English" yet, but you get my meaning)
The joy of invasions following several invasions on top of another invasion... The genealogic trees were probably gloriously twisted ^^

[Kardwill]

Evil spirit birthed in the dark halls of Hel herself, is evil. And clueless. Durkon's memories of his mother give him strength and hope to overcome adversity, and Durkula can't even begin to comprehend that he doesn't understand.

Yeah, if Greg didn't need a pretty good score to throw his spells around, I'd say he's got an abysmal WIS score. The guy know his "dark part of the soul" stuff, but otherwise, he's completely clueless ^^

[Peelee]

Also the Normans were French, including "technically", even if they descended from Norse men.

A philosophical question for the ages. What makes one French? The answer, of course, is the Maurice Chevalier laugh.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The Babylonian calendar used seven-day weeks long before Christianity did--it's actually a reasonably useful measure, being as near as you can get to one-quarter of a lunar cycle without using fractions of days.

Yes, I was aware that it ultimately is Babylonian. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the Israelites used to have a six-day week before they too adopted the Babylonian calendar while in exile. Given that this gets religious quickly, I'd rather drop the topic, though, fascinating as it is.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

Seven day weeks correspond nicely to the phases of the moon. Full to waning to new to waxing, and I suspect that accounts for it.

Also, spring tides occur at full and new moons, while neap tides occur at the quarter moons. Any coastal civilization would care about tides.

[hroþila]

A philosophical question for the ages. What makes one French? The answer, of course, is the Maurice Chevalier laugh.
Well, for the Normans that would be:
- speak French
- be a Christian
- live in lands considered to be part of the kingdom of the French
- recognize the suzerainty of the king of the French
- engage in French politics, or recognize the political authority over you of someone who does
- take a French name/Frenchify your name
- intermarry with the locals if you're not a local yourself
- be thoroughly absorbed, like, in record time

Argument against:
- claim you still have a distinct culture, exactly like every other French region

I don't know how exactly they laughed, but it was probably more hehehe and less høhøhø.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, spring tides occur at full and new moons, while neap tides occur at the quarter moons. Any coastal civilization would care about tides.

Oh, I like this explanation. I'm adopting it as my new head canon. Do you know of any original sources to back it up?

GW

[happycrow]

Oh, clever Durkon. That's how you use your WIS stat.

Yeah, Roy will arrive at Thor's temple at midnight. Unopposed. Meanwhile, Count Durkula and Gonetor think they will have lots of ability to take down Roy & Co, because they have clever plans for that.... instead of clever plans to take down tOOTS and every pissed-off dwarven cleric in all of Firmament.

Calling it: this will be a complete curbstomp made possible solely by Durkon rendering Count Durkula an unfortunate sideshow with Hel raging impotently at her wannabe boyfriend demigod (and many copious feels in Durkon's direction as he's hopefully brought back into the fray, because much as he's earned the afterlife, he has to help His Friend Roy).

[Rogar Demonblud]

British invasions didn't stop with Hastings. Svein Estridsson and the Danes showed up in 1070 (IIRC), the Frisians a generation later, the Welsh, Scots and Norse kept coming for another few centuries, occasional raids by the Irish, the Dutch came calling a few times before they helped William III invade and overthrow James II, the Spanish invaded to try and restore the Stuarts, etc. Actually, there were several invasions related to dynastic politics, most notably with King Stephen versus Empress Maud.

[Chei]

Oh, clever Durkon. That's how you use your WIS stat.

Yeah, Roy will arrive at Thor's temple at midnight. Unopposed. Meanwhile, Count Durkula and Gonetor think they will have lots of ability to take down Roy & Co, because they have clever plans for that.... instead of clever plans to take down tOOTS and every pissed-off dwarven cleric in all of Firmament.

Calling it: this will be a complete curbstomp made possible solely by Durkon rendering Count Durkula an unfortunate sideshow with Hel raging impotently at her wannabe boyfriend demigod (and many copious feels in Durkon's direction as he's hopefully brought back into the fray, because much as he's earned the afterlife, he has to help His Friend Roy).

The Order, and Durkon in particular, do not want low-level people fighting high-level threats. They will die. When you look at the OOTS's behavior just in this book, you have Roy telling the Mechane's crew to leave the giants to him. You have Haley telling the Gnomeland Security forces to get away from the rampaging golem.

Durkula & Co. have already shown they're capable of effortlessly killing a level 5+ cleric and his guards. Firmament, which is just a town and not a major city or dwarven capital, is not going to have a standing force equipped to fight high-level vampire clerics. Even if it did, the Order still wouldn't consider it worthwhile to sacrifice the lives of those dwarves for a minimal tactical advantage. Not in this story.

[Unoriginal]

Also have a pair of animal companions somewhat connected to death & decay? Just guessing here, but that was what first came to mind for me.

GW

Err, not really, Mercury's serpents weren't connected to decay.

On the other hand, it's true that some traditions make Mercury a psychopomp, and Odin was a death deity (among other things).


British invasions didn't stop with Hastings. Svein Estridsson and the Danes showed up in 1070 (IIRC), the Frisians a generation later, the Welsh, Scots and Norse kept coming for another few centuries, occasional raids by the Irish, the Dutch came calling a few times before they helped William III invade and overthrow James II, the Spanish invaded to try and restore the Stuarts, etc. Actually, there were several invasions related to dynastic politics, most notably with King Stephen versus Empress Maud.

To be fair, the invaders didn't manage to conquer much after Hasting, as far as I recall.

[Jay R]

Human food bad enough to overcome that Racial +2 Poison Resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0083.html)?

That had to be some REALLY bad stuff...

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/p__/images/9/96/Wednesday.gif/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/300?cb=20120811204158&path-prefix=protagonist: Is it made from real humans?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Err, not really, Mercury's serpents weren't connected to decay.

Neither were Huginn and Muninn, which were more spies than devourers of eyeballs (except in Discworld, of course). Although on the other hand, the modern use of Hermes' staff to represent medicine is in part due to the connection between snakes, poison and sickness, AFAIK, so there is a certain connection to decay, at least.

But in any case snakes and ravens in general are associated with death. To a Roman, confronted with a god with a couple of animal companions you'd normally not think of as pets, I can see the jump to the conclusion. Other connections - such as the traveling - would need to be explained to said Roman, but on seeing a picture of Odin with his staff & ravens may bring up a memory of Hermes with his staff and snakes, without needing for the translator to explain anything.

Nevertheless, as I said, it was my own first impression. It's not like I have anything other than the above reasoning to back it up, so I'm likely wrong, if nothing else because the search space of connections is likely huge.

Grey Wolf

[Svata]

Did the germanic tribes even have the concept of "week" before they adopted the Roman week's size and nomenclature? It's a very weird time division in the first place, so I'd expect most cultures to not have them at all (indeed, the Romans themselves didn't until they adopted Christianity, dividing the month* into three periods counting down to the kalends, nones, and ides).

Grey Wolf

*months, on the other hand, is a perfectly logical moon-based division of time which I'd expect pretty much every culture to have an equivalent form.

I mean, a week is a quarter of a lunar month. So it makes sense, too. One fourth is a common subdivision of things, and it especially makes sense to me, because you have precedent for quarter-measures of time, given that a season is a quarter of a year.

[Shining Wrath]

Oh, I like this explanation. I'm adopting it as my new head canon. Do you know of any original sources to back it up?

GW

Unfortunately, it looks like the Babylonians held the number 7 to be sacred: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/0/20394641 because there were 7 visible "planets"; Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. Given the Babylonian fascination with astronomy, that makes more sense, especially because Babylon was not particularly near the ocean.

So alas for the nautical explanation, it appears ancient numerology is the real cause.

[GM_3826]

Neither were Huginn and Muninn, which were more spies than devourers of eyeballs (except in Discworld, of course). Although on the other hand, the modern use of Hermes' staff to represent medicine is in part due to the connection between snakes, poison and sickness, AFAIK, so there is a certain connection to decay, at least.

It's a common misconception that Hermes' staff Caduceus is the Rod of Asclepius... The Rod of Asclepius is the symbol of medicine and a completely separate thing from Caduceus. That said, Caduceus is often mistakenly used as a symbol of medicine thanks to confusion between the two.

Asclepius is the god of medicine and thus the Rod of Asclepius is the symbol of medicine, but there has to be some reason as to why it's a staff with a snake coiled around it, so you're right in that there may be a connection.

[Asmodean_]

My guess is Durkon's planning to DDoS Durkula with disgusting memories so he gets distracted and can't do anything. Note that time is still passing while this exchange is taking place.

[georgie_leech]

My guess is Durkon's planning to DDoS Durkula with disgusting memories so he gets distracted and can't do anything. Note that time is still passing while this exchange is taking place.

Uh... about that... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html)

[Unoriginal]

Although on the other hand, the modern use of Hermes' staff to represent medicine is in part due to the connection between snakes, poison and sickness, AFAIK, so there is a certain connection to decay, at least.

No, there is no such connection, and no, the USA do not use Hermes's staff to represent medicine for that reason.

Hermes's staff is the Caduceus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus). The only reason it's used in medicine is that American people got confused between the Caduceus and the Rod of Asclepius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius), which is an actual symbol of medicine.


But in any case snakes and ravens in general are associated with death.

Snakes were more associated to knowledge, change, and rebirth/immortality by the Greeks/Romans (which is why it was on the Rod of Asclepius). Unless we're talking about the dragon-sized ones.



Other connections - such as the traveling - would need to be explained to said Roman, but on seeing a picture of Odin with his staff & ravens may bring up a memory of Hermes with his staff and snakes, without needing for the translator to explain anything

Except the Germanic tribes the Romans had contact with did not represent their gods in that kind of pictures -not at the time, anyway. It was noted they used more abstract signs to represent the deities rather than depicting them as characters.

If the two ravens were associated with the two snakes, it's due to the knowledge aspect.


Asclepius is the god of medicine and thus the Rod of Asclepius is the symbol of medicine, but there has to be some reason as to why it's a staff with a snake coiled around it, so you're right in that there may be a connection.

There are theories that say the serpent is used as symbol of the ambiguity between healing and death that pharmakons had (the Greek used this word to design both poison and medicine) as the snake can kill or heal, but that's one theory/interpretation.


It could just as easily be because Asclepius's father is Apollo, and Apollo has been associated with snakes, or a lot of other reasons. Asclepius's cult used non-venomous snakes, in any case.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's a common misconception that Hermes' staff Caduceus is the Rod of Asclepius... The Rod of Asclepius is the symbol of medicine and a completely separate thing from Caduceus. That said, Caduceus is often mistakenly used as a symbol of medicine thanks to confusion between the two.

Asclepius is the god of medicine and thus the Rod of Asclepius is the symbol of medicine, but there has to be some reason as to why it's a staff with a snake coiled around it, so you're right in that there may be a connection.

Damn. I knew that. Should've remembered that there's two staffs with snakes. Sorry about perpetuating the myth. Still, it does seem that the caduceus was supposed to be able to bring people back from the dead (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus) ("It is said the wand would wake the sleeping and send the awake to sleep. If applied to the dying, their death was gentle; if applied to the dead, they returned to life."), so there's a connection to death right there, if Wikipedia is to be trusted (YMMV).

GW

[schmunzel]

A philosophical question for the ages. What makes one French? The answer, of course, is the Maurice Chevalier laugh.

without a doubt the frommage!!!

sch

[schmunzel]

Oh, clever Durkon. That's how you use your WIS stat.

Yeah, Roy will arrive at Thor's temple at midnight. Unopposed. Meanwhile, Count Durkula and Gonetor think they will have lots of ability to take down Roy & Co, because they have clever plans for that.... instead of clever plans to take down tOOTS and every pissed-off dwarven cleric in all of Firmament.

Calling it: this will be a complete curbstomp made possible solely by Durkon rendering Count Durkula an unfortunate sideshow with Hel raging impotently at her wannabe boyfriend demigod (and many copious feels in Durkon's direction as he's hopefully brought back into the fray, because much as he's earned the afterlife, he has to help His Friend Roy).

That brings up an interisting question - how much visual and aural input does Durkon get as an enslaved soul?
from http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1002.html I assume that he sees and hears everything the vampire sees and hears. So he might now know that Roy arrives at midnight.
How long will these Vampires need until they arrive at that hall?
Perhaps it is now indeed a temple to Thor were they are at that point holding a ceremony??

sch

[Cazero]

The answer, of course, is the Maurice Chevalier laugh.
Somebody call a doctor, we have a case of old age.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Perhaps it is now indeed a temple to Thor were they are at that point holding a ceremony??

sch

Durkon's stated intention is to ensure the safety of dwarves by guiding Greg to a room that should be empty. If he is in fact intending to guide him to a Thor worship, he'd be lying. Durkon doesn't lie, preferring to use partial truth when the full truth might get him or his friends into trouble.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Somebody call a doctor, we have a case of old age.

Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain.

[goto124]

I wonder how bad human cooking must be, from a dwarves' perspective, if it actually overcomes their legendary constitution and resistance to poisoning for 6 hours?

Maybe human food is too raw for dwarves, who feed on largely preserved food and the stuff they find underground?


I dearly hope Rich doesn't feel that we need to see the extended pus-squeezing montage.

He spared us the vomit scene, so we'll most likely be spared this too.

[Chei]

That brings up an interisting question - how much visual and aural input does Durkon get as an enslaved soul?
from http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1002.html I assume that he sees and hears everything the vampire sees and hears. So he might now know that Roy arrives at midnight.
How long will these Vampires need until they arrive at that hall?
Perhaps it is now indeed a temple to Thor were they are at that point holding a ceremony??

sch

Durkon sees and hears everything the vampire does. He's been able to follow along with events as if he were experiencing them himself.

That said, Durkon is not trying to get the vampires to encounter resistance, Thor-aligned or not. Three or four strips ago, he watched the vampires easily kill a cleric of Thor and some guards. He tricked the vampires into giving up on gaining access to the temple, and his stated reason for doing so is to save the lives inside. He won't then turn around and lead them straight to another group. He wants the dwarves to live, not throw away their lives doing minimal and easily reversible damage to the vampires before the OOTS even gets there.



Durkon's stated intention is to ensure the safety of dwarves by guiding Greg to a room that should be empty. If he is in fact intending to guide him to a Thor worship, he'd be lying. Durkon doesn't lie, preferring to use partial truth when the full truth might get him or his friends into trouble.

Grey Wolf

Yup. This doesn't mean he might not be wrong and that things have changed in 20 years, but I am guessing that dwarven society is actually very static, and this particular hall won't have changed much, if at all.

[littlebum2002]

Durkon sees and hears everything the vampire does. He's been able to follow along with events as if he were experiencing them himself.

That said, Durkon is not trying to get the vampires to encounter resistance, Thor-aligned or not. Three or four strips ago, he watched the vampires easily kill a cleric of Thor and some guards. He tricked the vampires into giving up on gaining access to the temple, and his stated reason for doing so is to save the lives inside. He won't then turn around and lead them straight to another group. He wants the dwarves to live, not throw away their lives doing minimal and easily reversible damage to the vampires before the OOTS even gets there. die with honor so they can avoid going to Hel


Sorry, I just felt like Durkula's perspective was missing in this thread

[littlebum2002]

I think I, for the first time ever, discovered a grammatical error in the strip before anyone else!

In the 4th panel on the second page, there's an errant comma after "you"

[schmunzel]

Durkon's stated intention is to ensure the safety of dwarves by guiding Greg to a room that should be empty. If he is in fact intending to guide him to a Thor worship, he'd be lying. Durkon doesn't lie, preferring to use partial truth when the full truth might get him or his friends into trouble.

Grey Wolf

that is true

stupid me

sch

[Ariko]

Sorry about perpetuating the myth.
GW

That myth about myths? :smallwink:

Sorry, the phrasing amused me.

[Peelee]

He spared us the vomit scene, so we'll most likely be spared this too.

Vomit? Oh, sweet summer child....

[Chei]

Sorry, I just felt like Durkula's perspective was missing in this thread

Isn't that Eugene's perspective? I don't think Durkula has raised the point that any dwarves who die resisting won't go to Hel.

[goto124]

Vomit? Oh, sweet summer child....

Oh, the other end? No wonder Durkon mentioned running to the can. It's Gregula who's throwing up.

[Chei]

Oh, the other end? No wonder Durkon mentioned running to the can. It's Gregula who's throwing up.

Yep, Durkon got the runs. +2 to Poison saves and +1 general Constitution modifier should make dwarves virtually impervious. That must have been some really rancid stuff.

[Shining Wrath]

Durkon's not going to send vampires to slaughter dwarves because Durkon still has faith in Roy and the OotS. He thinks Roy is going to save them from Hel, not honorable death in combat against Durkula. And I think we got some foreshadowing from Durkula in this strip that Durkon's faith in Roy is going to matter, precisely because Durkula attempts to quash that faith.

For that matter, we get confirmation from Durkula that his thoughts are secret from Durkon; he's got schemes that Durkon doesn't know about, or so he believes. And Durkon likewise has thoughts that he believes to be secret from Durkula; in fact, we get to see Durkula asking Durkon why he's acting in a certain way.

As an analogy, it's a real-time operating network with a shared memory buffer accessible by two different CPUs. They can only see what the other one puts in the shared memory space. And it's a master-slave relationship; Durkula can compel Durkon to populate shared memory with certain memories.

[Peelee]

Oh, the other end? No wonder Durkon mentioned running to the can. It's Gregula who's throwing up.

Yeah. Running to the bathroom constantly for a lengthy period of time is associated with sitting, rather than kneeling. If you're throwing up, it's likely not going to be for a very long time (if it was, it'd just be dry-heaving after a certain point early on), and while the smell is very unpleasant, it doesn't hold a candle to the other option.

That you do not know all this means you have had a much more blessed life so far than I.

[happycrow]

That brings up an interisting question - how much visual and aural input does Durkon get as an enslaved soul?
from http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1002.html I assume that he sees and hears everything the vampire sees and hears. So he might now know that Roy arrives at midnight.
How long will these Vampires need until they arrive at that hall?
Perhaps it is now indeed a temple to Thor were they are at that point holding a ceremony??

sch

My call (which will almost certainly be wrong - my track record is less than glorious) assumes that he's able to see stuff. Mostly because the more he can see, the more of a punishmen that would usually be, and in my headcanon that's precisely the sort of pathetically spiteful thing Hel lives for, and because the comics don't make a lot of sense to me otherwise.

[Svata]

The physical sensation of vomiting is worse than the other, though. At least in my opinion.

[Keltest]

The physical sensation of vomiting is worse than the other, though. At least in my opinion.

Ive had some nasty vomiting, but its always over quickly. Sitting on the can for an hour with the runs is easily the worst bathroom experience of my life.

[GM_3826]

Vomiting is awful. I'm not sure I've ever had the kind of runs you do but either way I don't want to if it's worse than the physical sensation of vomiting.

[2D8HP]

Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain.


It's also in the "Tao of Coot" to pay by writing a check.

The punks can just wait to go hotrodding to the malt shop!

[Peelee]

Vomiting is awful. I'm not sure I've ever had the kind of runs you do but either way I don't want to if it's worse than the physical sensation of vomiting.

The time alone can make it worse. And that's not even mentioning the times it can be painful or burning. Then there are all the different consistencies, some of which can make the experience much more unpleasant.

[Paladin's Pride]

Durkon isn't a spectator in his life just because he's not always the center of attention. One can have many roles at many points in life. People and dwarves are social animals.

Without the men who worked the off-stage microphones, Rocky would have been a silent movie. Without the citizenry, a nation is nothing. Without someone to make the tools and dig the marble from the Earth, there is no Michelangelo's David.

Humility doesn't make you think less of yourself, it helps you thinks less about yourself. There are other, valid things on which one can focus, things that are not "me".

So shut up, you parasitic soul-snatcher, because you aren't alive and never will be. You don't understand life at all. You're a mirror to it, but mirrors get everything backwards.

*Cheers* Well said, sir! Gosh, that's great

[Nomen]

I think that Durken is trying to influence how Darken grows up since he put those two memories together and Darken didn't know what he's talking about. Its clear that Darken will never be Durken but its worth a try.
I think Darken does on some level either care about Durken or see himself as Durken. Why else would he actually be upset by Durken devoting his life to others? That's Durken's wasted life what does it matter to him?
I also think Darken in this comic is wording Durkens problems wrong.
Elan was a spectator in his own life for the first part of the comic. On some level he chose to be a bard because they can't do anything and therefore are not expected to. That attitude was freaking annoying to everyone else in the party.
Durken is active but his life is about others. He chose to become a priest so that he could help his mother. He also chose to fight Malack alone instead of hiding and watching or getting his party because he didn't want to risk his party members.

[Syncrogti]

It appears that Durkon is learning how to control greg to a small extent by forcing him to smell/see/hear things Greg didn't ask for. Is that what everyone else is seeing? Perhaps Durkon could use this to an advantage to distract Greg during a fight with Roy.

[Doug Lampert]

It's also in the "Tao of Coot" to pay by writing a check.

The punks can just wait to go hotrodding to the malt shop!

Bah, kids these days with their newfangled checkbooks.

You pay in cash. With a coin purse, that you carefully count coins out of one at a time into the cashier's hand. Remember to stop and look at least five times, because you're sure you have another penny in there somewhere so you can make exact change.

This has the added benefit that there's an excellent chance whoever's behind you or the cashier will hand you some extra pennies just to get you to move. (Why in the name of all the OotS gods do we still mint pennies in the USA? The modern quarter is worth substantially less in purchasing power than the half-penny was when we eliminated it, the fifty cent piece is worth less in earning power than that half-penny was when we got rid of it. Our distant ancestors who cared far more about small amounts of money than most moderns decided that a coin worth more than our four most common coins wasn't worth bothering with. You can round off costs, you've been going to gas-stations for your entire life that price in mills, but round the cost off to the nearest penny. The modern penny is made from zinc, and the zinc, chosen as the cheapest metal usable for a coin, is now worth more than the coin.)

[danielxcutter]

Bah, kids these days with their newfangled checkbooks.

You pay in cash. With a coin purse, that you carefully count coins out of one at a time into the cashier's hand. Remember to stop and look at least five times, because you're sure you have another penny in there somewhere so you can make exact change.

This has the added benefit that there's an excellent chance whoever's behind you or the cashier will hand you some extra pennies just to get you to move. (Why in the name of all the OotS gods do we still mint pennies in the USA? The modern quarter is worth substantially less in purchasing power than the half-penny was when we eliminated it, the fifty cent piece is worth less in earning power than that half-penny was when we got rid of it. Our distant ancestors who cared far more about small amounts of money than most moderns decided that a coin worth more than our four most common coins wasn't worth bothering with. You can round off costs, you've been going to gas-stations for your entire life that price in mills, but round the cost off to the nearest penny. The modern penny is made from zinc, and the zinc, chosen as the cheapest metal usable for a coin, is now worth more than the coin.)

Help, I'm too young and foreign for this! :smalltongue:

[Ornithologist]

Simply Put, It costs the US Gov more to print a penny than it is worth. In theory, you could buy rolls of american pennies from the bank, melt them down and sell them to the US Gov for more than the pennies cost you.

Also: Don't do that, its not worth your time.

Finally, The main reason there is still a penny around is the fact that there is a surprisingly active penny lobbyist community here in the US.

I wish I was making this up.

[Peelee]

Simply Put, It costs the US Gov more to print a penny than it is worth. In theory, you could buy rolls of american pennies from the bank, melt them down and sell them to the US Gov for more than the pennies cost you.

Huh. I wonder if...

Also: Don't do that, its not worth your time.
Dammit.

[goodpeople25]

Wow, I was never quite sure if the US was still using pennies or not, good to know. Now I just need to keep straight how long ago it was when we stopped using them.

[Ruck]

He probably figured most people wouldn't read it until tomorrow, given the time of day.

The thread was started at 7 PM Eastern; I'd be surprised if that didn't leave most people (in the Americas, at least-- I assume most of the fanbase is still U.S.-based, though I know there's a strong international presence here) plenty of time to read it.


Uh... about that... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html)

This has always confused me a little, because even though the vampire says the process takes a "split second", he also says that the process of absorbing memories takes "a few months." How would that be the case if they could be absorbed instantaneously? There must be some kind of limiting factor on the process. (And even if does take an actual "split second," as opposed to being instantaneous, that would eventually accumulate to the point someone might notice or it might prevent the vampire from taking action, right?)


My bet, he's testing the waters to see how destructive his memories of Hilgya (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html) will be.

Greg: Urk! Wha-? I- Why would you make me watch something so disgusting?
Durkon: Figured it'd be more yer speed.
Greg: Why would I want to watch that?
Durkon: If'n tha bother ye, word of advice? Don't try readin' any stories 'bout vampires.

Hm, now this is an angle I could actually see working-- Durkon using his memories of Hilgya to disgust and distract the vampire-- although I wouldn't say it'd be more effective a memory than food poisoning. (Plus, we know the actual act grossed out Thor and Loki; maybe Hel's Shell would find it entertaining for the same reasons.)


That's closer to the more classic idea of "Good vs. Evil," but I think if you go through the characters in OOTS, the thing that sticks out the most is that the good characters learn from their mistakes and evolve while the evil characters repeat the same patterns until it causes them to screw up and lose somehow.

I don't think it's good vs. evil exactly-- it's more that the characters that survive do so because they can change and adapt to and grow from circumstances, whereas the people who die, to some degree, by and large refuse to do so. Miko refused to accept the truth first about the OOTS and then about her own fallibility. Tsukiko refused to accept the truth about the undead. Malack refused to accept that Nale would let his personal grudges override business; Nale refused the idea that the things he'd done might actually have consequences for him.

[Unoriginal]

Huh. I wonder if...

Dammit.

It's illegal to destroy pennies to get the copper, anyway.

[Chei]

This has always confused me a little, because even though the vampire says the process takes a "split second", he also says that the process of absorbing memories takes "a few months." How would that be the case if they could be absorbed instantaneously? There must be some kind of limiting factor on the process. (And even if does take an actual "split second," as opposed to being instantaneous, that would eventually accumulate to the point someone might notice or it might prevent the vampire from taking action, right?)

Individual memories offered by the host take only a split-second to absorb no matter how many there are, but the host doesn't offer too many memories at once - the vampire calls upon them when needed or, presumably, fairly slowly over time. Absorbing all of the memories certainly takes a while, given that these include forgotten memories of an entire lifetime. There is a distinction between the two groups - memories offered at one time vs. all the memories the host has - that I think you're missing here.

[Peelee]

It's illegal to destroy pennies to get the copper, anyway.

I'd like to see the coppers try and get me for it.

[Nomen]

The thread was started at 7 PM Eastern;
This has always confused me a little, because even though the vampire says the process takes a "split second", he also says that the process of absorbing memories takes "a few months." How would that be the case if they could be absorbed instantaneously? There must be some kind of limiting factor on the process. (And even if does take an actual "split second," as opposed to being instantaneous, that would eventually accumulate to the point someone might notice or it might prevent the vampire from taking action, right?)

.
That particular memory took a split second. Darken actually said the speed of thought. That can vary based on a number of things.

[Peelee]

This has always confused me a little, because even though the vampire says the process takes a "split second", he also says that the process of absorbing memories takes "a few months." How would that be the case if they could be absorbed instantaneously? There must be some kind of limiting factor on the process. (And even if does take an actual "split second," as opposed to being instantaneous, that would eventually accumulate to the point someone might notice or it might prevent the vampire from taking action, right?)


Individual memories offered by the host take only a split-second to absorb no matter how many there are, but the host doesn't offer too many memories at once - the vampire calls upon them when needed or, presumably, fairly slowly over time. Absorbing all of the memories certainly takes a while, given that these include forgotten memories of an entire lifetime. There is a distinction between the two groups - memories offered at one time vs. all the memories the host has - that I think you're missing here.


That particular memory took a split second. Darken actually said the speed of thought. That can vary based on a number of things.

Thought processing time, presumably (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html)

[dtilque]

Simply Put, It costs the US Gov more to print a penny than it is worth. In theory, you could buy rolls of american pennies from the bank, melt them down and sell them to the US Gov for more than the pennies cost you.

Also: Don't do that, its not worth your time.

It's also illegal.


Finally, The main reason there is still a penny around is the fact that there is a surprisingly active penny lobbyist community here in the US.

I wish I was making this up.

The penny lobby is made up of 1) Jarden Zinc Products (a company that sells coin blanks to the Mint) and 2) Coinstar. That's it. Yes, you can find a lobbying group called Americans for Common Cents, but guess what, they're funded by 1) above.

[Erys]

It's illegal to destroy pennies to get the copper, anyway.

Also, modern pennies have very little copper in them. To even consider such an attempt you would need pennies from 1981 and before.

Scrolling up to the original post (I believe):

Bah, kids these days with their newfangled checkbooks.

You pay in cash. With a coin purse, that you carefully count coins out of one at a time into the cashier's hand. Remember to stop and look at least five times, because you're sure you have another penny in there somewhere so you can make exact change.

This has the added benefit that there's an excellent chance whoever's behind you or the cashier will hand you some extra pennies just to get you to move. (Why in the name of all the OotS gods do we still mint pennies in the USA? The modern quarter is worth substantially less in purchasing power than the half-penny was when we eliminated it, the fifty cent piece is worth less in earning power than that half-penny was when we got rid of it. Our distant ancestors who cared far more about small amounts of money than most moderns decided that a coin worth more than our four most common coins wasn't worth bothering with. You can round off costs, you've been going to gas-stations for your entire life that price in mills, but round the cost off to the nearest penny. The modern penny is made from zinc, and the zinc, chosen as the cheapest metal usable for a coin, is now worth more than the coin.)

The zinc in a modern penny is not worth more than the coin... that is partly why there is so much zinc in there now.
(That said, it is somewhat close to breaking even; as of now zinc is 1.30/lbs and there are about 145-180 pennies in a pound (depending on metal content); but, as our buying power continues to decline the zinc will become more valuable in the not too distant future).

Rome, when its economy started to crumble, would 'chip' their coins. Taking small chunks off many coins to create new coins in the hopes no one noticed the lighter coins... Modern governments do the same, they are just craftier about it.

Also: fiat money is the devil. But, that is a discussion for another thread (and probably another forum).

[8BitNinja]

They say the best way to a man's heart is through the stomach, so I guess Durkon will destroy the heart of his problems by first destroying its stomach.

[Ironsmith]

That's closer to the more classic idea of "Good vs. Evil," but I think if you go through the characters in OOTS, the thing that sticks out the most is that the good characters learn from their mistakes and evolve while the evil characters repeat the same patterns until it causes them to screw up and lose somehow. Nale keeps lashing out from the same resentments until he dies from doing so, Tsukiko keeps believing that control=love until it kills her, Miko keeps jumping to conclusions until she jumps to one that leads to her death. There's hints that something similar is happening to Redcloak, as his obsession with a goblin republic seems to be taking a hard swerve into dictatorship just as he leaves. Meanwhile, V, Roy, Haley, and the others can all do selfish or shortsighted things, but they learn from them and change their behavior accordingly--even Belkar does this, right when he's at a point where repeating his previous bad behavior would have led to him getting abandoned and possibly killed.

I'd need to go through it in further detail to confirm/modify the basic theory, but the morality Rich has set up (leaving aside the alignment system) suggests that the heart of goodness is about growth and self-recognition, and the differences between Durkon and Durkula seem to confirm this.

Maybe, except we have examples of villains who develop from near-death situations in OotS: Tarquin, Redcloak, Xykon, and even Nale, to some degree.

Tarquin learned from his mistakes in his backstory: he started as a straight-up conqueror, but when that almost got him killed, he switched to the "puppet nation" method we see him using during the Empire of Blood arc. While he doesn't do a lot to adapt in the comic proper, he's certainly capable of it. He's still an example of self-recognition and growth, he just doesn't end up as a better person because of it... for example, he finally learns that his methods of winning Nale back over aren't going to work, so he changes his approach, and Elan becomes an only child.

Xykon actually has his "evolve or die" moment twice, both times in Azure city. First, Soon shows him that no, he is most certainly not invulnerable, phylactery be damned, and if Miko hadn't been a wrench in the works, we wouldn't have a central villain anymore. This event is what causes him to be receptive to the idea of researching the defenses Kraagor's Tomb has, so he doesn't end up being smote again. Then, he has it again when V's company shows up, and that causes him to lose his phylactery and shake him up again, urging both himself and Redcloak on to the gate instead of sitting on his tailbone and waiting until he's safely prepared. It might just seem like a reset button, but compare his approach to Kraagor's Tomb to that of Azure City; in the former case, he brings along a party of high-level characters, whereas in the latter he just dropped behind enemy lines on his own. He's playing more cautiously, even if it's not directly pointed out.

Redcloak had a moment like this at Azure City, as well, specifically with his "what am I? Some kind of racist?" speech during the siege. That still is a point of character development, even if it's him going from Stupid, Petty Evil to Practical, Philosophical Evil on a single point. Start of Darkness, from what I understand, has more of these in it, and even his moment with Tsukiko makes it clear he's grown quite a bit from how he was at the beginning of the comic.

And finally, Nale. After being beaten in a direct confrontation once, he tries again with subterfuge. When that doesn't work, he hides out and doesn't even attack again until it looks like the Order's caught up to him. It's easy to write off as a tactical change, but it at least shows he's smart enough to know when he's outmatched, even if he never loses his ego.

Now, granted, none of them ever really lose or change their motivations, but that might have something to do with the stability of their goals and how closed-off they are to altering them, since the only reason they would want to change is for themselves. It's not so much a question of "do they recognize their own faults?" as much as it is "why would they consider them faults?".

Roy changed his leadership style in response to how it affected the party; Haley started getting over her trust issues thanks to "Elan", V started changing priorities when they saw how they affected Inkyrius, Elan changed as a result of the tutelage from Julio and a good, long look at his own family, and while Durkon hasn't changed that much since the beginning of the comic, what growth he has seen is as a result of his interactions with the party and people close to him. Even Belkar straddles the line with this, since he changes in response to the party, but for more selfish reasons.

Tarquin, Redcloak, Xykon and Nale, however, don't experience this shift because ultimately, they have self-centered worldviews. The only changes they make are in how they approach obstacles, because nobody gives them any reason to change... since they have a much smaller pool of concerns, there's not nearly as much reason to alter themselves to meet them. They can, they just don't because it doesn't suit them.

[Svata]

Also: fiat money is the devil. But, that is a discussion for another thread (and probably another forum).

All currency is fiat currency, as nothing but food/clothing/shelter has inherent value. Decoupling it from a natural resource just means it can keep up with how much we need in our current market.

[mouser9169]

That's closer to the more classic idea of "Good vs. Evil," but I think if you go through the characters in OOTS, the thing that sticks out the most is that the good characters learn from their mistakes and evolve while the evil characters repeat the same patterns until it causes them to screw up and lose somehow. Nale keeps lashing out from the same resentments until he dies from doing so, Tsukiko keeps believing that control=love until it kills her, Miko keeps jumping to conclusions until she jumps to one that leads to her death. There's hints that something similar is happening to Redcloak, as his obsession with a goblin republic seems to be taking a hard swerve into dictatorship just as he leaves. Meanwhile, V, Roy, Haley, and the others can all do selfish or shortsighted things, but they learn from them and change their behavior accordingly--even Belkar does this, right when he's at a point where repeating his previous bad behavior would have led to him getting abandoned and possibly killed.

I'd need to go through it in further detail to confirm/modify the basic theory, but the morality Rich has set up (leaving aside the alignment system) suggests that the heart of goodness is about growth and self-recognition, and the differences between Durkon and Durkula seem to confirm this.

I think you're missing it a bit. The B-List villians need to keep making mistakes so that they lose. The main characters get character development because story.

Redcloak has made a very calculated decision (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html) to keep following The Plan (not to mention, pretty much all clerics put the directives of their deity foremost). He also had a great character arc where he put aside his prejudices (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) from his childhood, as well as outgrowing his naivete (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html).

Miko was Good, right up until the end (she committed an evil act - that doesn't mean her alignment shifted). And who could forget "Good is not Dumb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)."

Belkar is an example that helps disprove your point - He is Evil. A 'likeable' Evil, to be sure, but Evil nonetheless.

[factotum]

Rome, when its economy started to crumble, would 'chip' their coins. Taking small chunks off many coins to create new coins in the hopes no one noticed the lighter coins...

Which is why modern coins generally have milled edges, because it makes it very obvious if someone's been trying to chip bits off coins. It's not really much of an issue nowadays since modern coins aren't made of precious metals, of course.

[KorvinStarmast]

The penny lobby is made up of 1) Jarden Zinc Products (a company that sells coin blanks to the Mint) and 2) Coinstar. That's it. Yes, you can find a lobbying group called Americans for Common Cents, but guess what, they're funded by 1) above. I for one am grateful that they are doing this.

I have too much respect for Abe Lincoln to condone the loss of the penny.
Without the penny, the phrase "my two cents worth" would lose its meaning.
The phrase A penny for your thoughts? would pass further out of circulation.
I'd have to find a coin of more value to mark my golf ball on the green before putting
The easy understanding of the value of "a copper piece" in D&D would fade.


Keep the penny, it's not about the copper.

[Quebbster]

I for one am grateful that they are doing this.

I have too much respect for Abe Lincoln to condone the loss of the penny.
Without the penny, the phrase "my two cents worth" would lose its meaning.
The phrase A penny for your thoughts? would pass further out of circulation.
I'd have to find a coin of more value to mark my golf ball on the green before putting
The easy understanding of the value of "a copper piece" in D&D would fade.


Keep the penny, it's not about the copper.
6. Batman's greatest villain, The Penny Plunderer (http://about-faces.livejournal.com/60179.html), would not make any sense any more.
Not that he ever did...

[Corian]

What about "dimanche" ?

From latin domini, (of the) lord, in this case day of The Lord. Slightly more obvious in italian domenica, or spanish/portuguese domingo.

[GreenSerpent]

Something to note: Greg prepares spells at dusk, not dawn.

If Durkon can stall him long enough for Roy to arrive it would be significantly easier to take on Greg without his full compliment of spells.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Something to note: Greg prepares spells at dusk, not dawn.

If Durkon can stall him long enough for Roy to arrive it would be significantly easier to take on Greg without his full compliment of spells.

As has been pointed out, Durkon cannot stall Greg with memories. First, Greg can leave, as seen in the current comic. But more importantly, very little time passes in the mind's theater (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html).

Grey Wolf

[Erys]

All currency is fiat currency, as nothing but food/clothing/shelter has inherent value. Decoupling it from a natural resource just means it can keep up with how much we need in our current market.

While I will, sadly, agree that most of the world now has a central bank issuing fiat currency (and the reason for that is rather nefarious if you understand the MIC)- you are completely wrong when you say "Decoupling it from a natural resource just means it can keep up with how much we need in our current market."

You know what happens when you have intrinsic money, like gold and silver, as the currency and the amount of goods out paces the amount of silver/gold? You purchase power increases. It takes less money to buy things, not more.

Inflation is you losing purchasing power- and slowly all fiats return to their intrinsic value of 0. It's just a matter of time.

Money is a unit of exchange that should represent/reflect the very work put into whatever service or good you are attempting to acquire. Intrinsic metal requires actual work to produce. Work for work will always be superior to work for what is effectively an IOU.

[Ornithologist]

It's also illegal.

The penny lobby is made up of 1) Jarden Zinc Products (a company that sells coin blanks to the Mint) and 2) Coinstar. That's it. Yes, you can find a lobbying group called Americans for Common Cents, but guess what, they're funded by 1) above.

Fun fact: lots of amusement parks (at least all the ones I have ever been to: anecdotal evidence only) have vending machines that use a penny as a base to press out a commemorative coin of their park. Also still Illegal.


I figured that the phrase "its also illegal" was more of a given. I guess I assumed its illegal in most countries?


... I really didn't want to do a full dive into penny lobby blah blah blah.... But, it turns out Jarden spends on average 150,000 US a year on lobbyists in the US, and typically receives contracts for 48 million US from the government on the metals to produce coins.

Back to a slightly more relevant topic: Durkon must have crit failed his save from food poisoning. That has to be the answer.

Just my two cents...

I'll see myself out.

[KorvinStarmast]

Back to a slightly more relevant topic: Durkon must have crit failed his save from food poisoning. That has to be the answer. There's nothing magical about food poisoning. It's mundane. Hence, no saving throw is (necessarily) on the table.

[Peelee]

I for one am grateful that they are doing this.

I have too much respect for Abe Lincoln to condone the loss of the penny.
Without the penny, the phrase "my two cents worth" would lose its meaning.
The phrase A penny for your thoughts? would pass further out of circulation.
I'd have to find a coin of more value to mark my golf ball on the green before putting
The easy understanding of the value of "a copper piece" in D&D would fade.


Keep the penny, it's not about the copper.


Lincoln is on the five dollar bill. And Mount Rushmore. And has a monument in DC. I don't think the penny would be a great loss for him.
As of right now, it means "basically worthless." If a five cent coin is the smallest denomination, then two cents still means "basically worthless." I fail to see the problem here.
Spending millions of dollars to keep a phrase that's already dying out seems.... unwise (I'm trying to be polite here).
Nickels would be easier to spot anyway. Hell, quarters are the best, since they have good contrast with the green and are the largest coin.
It's a base ten system. I don't think that's difficult to grasp without a penny.


Lose the penny, it's not about the copper, it just sucks.

[georgie_leech]

There's nothing magical about food poisoning. It's mundane. Hence, no saving throw is (necessarily) on the table.

Neither are vipers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/snake.htm#viperSnake), and yet they have one too. Saving Throws are for resisting effects, not necessarily magical ones.

[littlebum2002]

Fun fact: lots of amusement parks (at least all the ones I have ever been to: anecdotal evidence only) have vending machines that use a penny as a base to press out a commemorative coin of their park. Also still Illegal.



This is a very common myth. It is not generally illegal to destroy coinage (paper money is a different issue). You can go directly in front of the US mint and crush thousands of pennies and they won't do anything about it, because it is not illegal.

It is only illegal to deface currency with fraudulent intent. If you don't plan on scamming anyone with your destroyed coins, it is not illegal.

In fact, it was such a common misconception that the US Mint itself saught to clear it up:


The Treasury's Letter to Vance Fowler
Is it legal to press pennies or other coins?
Mr. Angelo Rosato reproduced this letter from the Department of the Treasury to Mr. Vance Fowler in his book "Encyclopedia of the Modern Elongated", (ISBN 0-9626996-2-4) [email protected]. The letter was dated July 22, 1980, letterhead: The Department of the Treasury, Office of the Director of the Mint, and is probably the source of many quotes collectors have seen over the years. It reads in part:

"This is in reply to your letter of Jun 20, 1980, concerning United States statutes governing the destruction, melting, or other extramonetary uses of United States coins. You refer to and question the legality of a souvenir machine which compresses coins and returns a souvenir. You refer to Title 18, U. S. C. sections 331 and 475.

As you are already aware, a federal statute in the criminal code of the United States (18 U.S.C. 331), indeed makes it illegal if one "fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales or lightens" any U.S. coin. However, being a criminal statute, a fraudulent intent is required for violation. Thus, the mere act of compressing coins into souvenirs is not illegal, without other factors being present.

Section 475, which you refer to in your letter, regarding the attachment of notice or advertisement to legal tender, does not apply to your souvenirs in this case. Your are not impressing or attaching a business or professional card, notice or advertisement to a coin, your are simply making an impression on the coin.

We hope this information answers your question. If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us.

Sincerely,

Kenneth B. Gubin
Counsel to the Mint
(emphasis mine)


But what about melting down coins?, you ask. Well, this is exactly why melting down coins was such a big problem, because it was technically legal. And that's why, in 2006 when the price of copper skyrocketed, the US Mint created a ban on melting down coins (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=2725597)

[Crisis21]

Saturday - was the day of the ancient Roman god Saturn, and I really have no clue why there wasn't a germanic god(dess) to take care of that day.

Fun fact straight from the Wikipedia article on Saturn:


In the Westphalian dialects of Low Saxon, in East Frisian Low Saxon and in the Saterland Frisian language, Saturday is called Satertag, also akin to Dutch Zaterdag, which has the same linguistic roots as the English word Saturday. It was formerly thought that the English name referred to a deity named Sætere who was venerated by the pre-Christian peoples of north-western Germany, some of whom were the ancestors of the Anglo-Saxons. Sætere was identified as either a god associated with the harvest of possible Slav origin,[5] or another name for Loki[6] a complex deity associated with both good and evil; this latter suggestion may be due to Jacob Grimm.[7] However, modern dictionaries derive the name from Saturn.[8][9][10][11]

TLDR: Apparently the western germanic language origin for 'Saturday' might have been based on some god named Sætere, which may or may not be one of Loki's aliases.

[factotum]

Something to note: Greg prepares spells at dusk, not dawn.

If Durkon can stall him long enough for Roy to arrive it would be significantly easier to take on Greg without his full compliment of spells.

How does that work? Durkula doesn't actually have to cast any of the spells he's prepared at dusk, so he could have just as many spells available to cast if Roy turns up 23 hours later as he would if he turned up immediately afterward.

[goodpeople25]

I for one am grateful that they are doing this.

I have too much respect for Abe Lincoln to condone the loss of the penny.
Without the penny, the phrase "my two cents worth" would lose its meaning.
The phrase A penny for your thoughts? would pass further out of circulation.
I'd have to find a coin of more value to mark my golf ball on the green before putting
The easy understanding of the value of "a copper piece" in D&D would fade.


Keep the penny, it's not about the copper.
My pennies didn't have Lincoln on them, but the rest of your points I haven't seem being a problem whatsoever. Well I don't play golf, but I think the general principle still applies for former uses of pennies, plus I'm pretty certain you could just keep some pennies if it was the value.

[littlebum2002]

I for one am grateful that they are doing this.

I have too much respect for Abe Lincoln to condone the loss of the penny.
Without the penny, the phrase "my two cents worth" would lose its meaning.
The phrase A penny for your thoughts? would pass further out of circulation.
I'd have to find a coin of more value to mark my golf ball on the green before putting
The easy understanding of the value of "a copper piece" in D&D would fade.


Keep the penny, it's not about the copper.

The US spends $132 million a year on minting pennies.

The USDA estimates that, on a thrifty food plan, you can feed a family of 4 for $509 a month. That's $6120 a year.

So for the money we spend for no better reason than so you can keep using the phrase "a penny for your thoughts" we could feed over 86,000 people a year.

If the US didn't have anyone who was hungry, or homeless, or couldn't afford health care, would i support keeping the penny? Sure, why not. But since this isn't our situation, it's kind of a slap in the face to those people to tell them that their life means less to us than our own sentimentality towards a worthless piece of metal.

[Peelee]

The US spends $132 million a year on minting pennies.

The USDA estimates that, on a thrifty food plan, you can feed a family of 4 for $509 a month. That's $6120 a year.

So for the money we spend for no better reason than so you can keep using the phrase "a penny for your thoughts" we could feed over 86,000 people a year.

If the US didn't have anyone who was hungry, or homeless, or couldn't afford health care, would i support keeping the penny? Sure, why not. But since this isn't our situation, it's kind of a slap in the face to those people to tell them that their life means less to us than our own sentimentality towards a worthless piece of metal.

There's so much I'd like to add onto this, but don't wanna risk skirting the wrong side of the forum rules.

[Ornithologist]

There's nothing magical about food poisoning. It's mundane. Hence, no saving throw is (necessarily) on the table.

Really, a player would probably not have to roll because the time you spend rolling for a mundane task like eating dinner is time the group spends not rolling for tasks like break into a bank, or dodge the flying death wheel.

Still, I could see the following exchange (at a table I'm running):

Player 1: I look for a good Inn in town to stay the night. (Rolls)
D - 1
GM: The place you find looks good, though something about the food as you eat tastes off to you.
By the next morning, you are at -2 Con all day from being up all night on the Loo.

Player 1: Well that was a crappy result.

We all groan/laugh at the pun and move on. (and the player is happy they didn't get robbed blind in the night!)

On the coin front, I learn something new everyday. On an unrelated note, I am predicting its time for a change in scene back to the OotLORtVnRD.

[Svata]

You know what happens when you have intrinsic money, like gold and silver, as the currency and the amount of goods out paces the amount of silver/gold? You purchase power increases. It takes less money to buy things, not more.



Silver and gold HAVE no intrinsic value though. It was already value by fiat. The only things with intrinsic value are necessities to live.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Silver and gold HAVE no intrinsic value though. It was already value by fiat. The only things with intrinsic value are necessities to live.

(See: the collapse of the Roman gold/silver currency during the Crisis of the third century, when hyperinflation due to insufficient gold for the size of the economy caused the imperial government to start collecting taxes in kind: shirts, wheat, bricklaying quotas, etc)

GW

[Chei]

In the paraphrased words of a great man: "Potatoes get you through a time of no gold much better than gold gets you through a time of no potatoes."

[Svata]

So unless you want to trade primarily in bushels of wheat, you'll need some level of abstraction and fiat in your currency.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So unless you want to trade primarily in bushels of wheat, you'll need some level of abstraction and fiat in your currency.

Exactly. I'd go as far as to say that the more intrinsic value the medium of exchange has, the worse it is as a currency, because it gives people a reason to horde it beyond its actual purpose of facilitating the exchange of goods and services. Money works best when it is literally just a way to keep score: who owes whom how much. Full stop.

Grey Wolf

[Ornithologist]

Exactly. I'd go as far as to say that the more intrinsic value the medium of exchange has, the worse it is as a currency, because it gives people a reason to horde it beyond its actual purpose of facilitating the exchange of goods and services. Money works best when it is literally just a way to keep score: who owes whom how much. Full stop.

Grey Wolf

That just makes me think of the Star Munchkin RPG book for DND3.5 The in game currency was credits, because everyone owed so much from their family lines' loans all currency was just based of how much it would pay towards their family debts. Don't think to hard on how that would actually work, it is an rpg supplement based on a sci-fi variant card game based on a game satirizing Munchkin-esk players in DND.

[Reddish Mage]

Silver and gold HAVE no intrinsic value though. It was already value by fiat. The only things with intrinsic value are necessities to live.

Silver and gold both have intrinsic value. In fact, I recall watching an analyst claim not too long ago that the Silver prices were based more on industrial demand than anything else.

Limiting things with "intrinsic values" to "necessities to live" is far too limiting. People value more than just basic food, plain clothing, and rude shelter.

Fiat value is limited though. Just because a price-tag is placed on a pure luxury item doesn't mean people will pay it. Prices for luxuries, just like necessities, are negotiated and usually determined by markets.

Fiat value is really only extant for currency and other sorts of negotiable instruments. Some government declared that a certain sort of paper would carry value far beyond what paper rags go for.

Gold is really in its own category, as it has value for use in industry and as jewelry but its price is mostly determined by its use as an alternative for paper & electronic currency.

Not sure how you tie this back into the comic or a D&D game. I once calculated that silver and gold purchasing power in 3.5 worked well with actual medieval purchasing power the basic labor and soldier rates (going up to knights but excluding seige engineers and arquebus gunners).

[hamishspence]

That just makes me think of the Star Munchkin RPG book for DND3.5 The in game currency was credits, because everyone owed so much from their family lines' loans all currency was just based of how much it would pay towards their family debts.

Star Munchkin: (page 49)


Through the miracle of compound interest, it is now estimated that, in total, the universe owes itself roughly 700,000 times its own net worth, including the value gained by selling it off for parts. Thus, money is now measured with credits. The more credits you have, the more leverage you have against the total lien of universal debt.

[georgie_leech]

Silver and gold both have intrinsic value. In fact, I recall watching an analyst claim not too long ago that the Silver prices were based more on industrial demand than anything else.

Limiting things with "intrinsic values" to "necessities to live" is far too limiting. People value more than just basic food, plain clothing, and rude shelter.

Fiat value is limited though. Just because a price-tag is placed on a pure luxury item doesn't mean people will pay it. Prices for luxuries, just like necessities, are negotiated and usually determined by markets.

Fiat value is really only extant for currency and other sorts of negotiable instruments. Some government declared that a certain sort of paper would carry value far beyond what paper rags go for.

Gold is really in its own category, as it has value for use in industry and as jewelry but its price is mostly determined by its use as an alternative for paper & electronic currency.

Not sure how you tie this back into the comic or a D&D game. I once calculated that silver and gold purchasing power in 3.5 worked well with actual medieval purchasing power the basic labor and soldier rates (going up to knights but excluding seige engineers and arquebus gunners).

Trouble is, silver and gold were used long before they had industrial uses. They were used primarily because they were pretty, weren't impossible to acquire if you knew how but were difficult to counterfeit, and they didn't expire or otherwise get used up over time. You know what also shares these qualities? Cowry shells. Coincidentally, guess what many coastal or pre-metallurgy peoples used for currency. :smallamused:

[LadyEowyn]

While I will, sadly, agree that most of the world now has a central bank issuing fiat currency (and the reason for that is rather nefarious if you understand the MIC)- you are completely wrong when you say "Decoupling it from a natural resource just means it can keep up with how much we need in our current market."

You know what happens when you have intrinsic money, like gold and silver, as the currency and the amount of goods out paces the amount of silver/gold? You purchase power increases. It takes less money to buy things, not more.

Inflation is you losing purchasing power- and slowly all fiats return to their intrinsic value of 0. It's just a matter of time.

Money is a unit of exchange that should represent/reflect the very work put into whatever service or good you are attempting to acquire. Intrinsic metal requires actual work to produce. Work for work will always be superior to work for what is effectively an IOU.

Eh, metal-based currency is also subject to inflation. (The Spanish went bankrupt after conquering and looting the Americas in the 1500-1600s, partly due to inflation caused by a massive influx of gold. High military spending was the rest of the reason.)

If your currency is linked to gold, its value is based on the amount of gold available in the world - a rather arbitrary number, as gold has no intrinsic value ( compared to other metals it's not very useful, which is what made it a good currency) If your currency isn't linked to any metal its value is based on other people's/nations' confidence that you'll pay back your debts.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Eh, metal-based currency is also subject to inflation. (The Spanish went bankrupt after conquering and looting the Americas in the 1500-1600s, partly due to inflation caused by a massive influx of gold. High military spending was the rest of the reason.)
Also, the lack of any significant industry: Spain was selling its wool to the Netherlands and buying it back as clothes, for example.


If your currency is linked to gold, its value is based on the amount of gold available in the world - a rather arbitrary number
Indeed. These days, the entirety of the gold known to exist on Earth (170000 tons - about 7 billion dollars) is obviously insufficient to cover anywhere near the needs of the US market. Heck, Apple alone has cash reserves larger than that... by two orders of magnitude.

GW

[Kish]

It's a base ten system. I don't think that's difficult to grasp without a penny.
It is notably difficult to grasp for a lot of people who seem to instinctively expect 100 silver pieces to the gold piece and 100 copper pieces to the gold piece. The existence of the penny does not seem to help with this.

[drazen]

Eh, metal-based currency is also subject to inflation. (The Spanish went bankrupt after conquering and looting the Americas in the 1500-1600s, partly due to inflation caused by a massive influx of gold. High military spending was the rest of the reason.)

If your currency is linked to gold, its value is based on the amount of gold available in the world - a rather arbitrary number, as gold has no intrinsic value ( compared to other metals it's not very useful, which is what made it a good currency) If your currency isn't linked to any metal its value is based on other people's/nations' confidence that you'll pay back your debts.

The first half of this is true, but (and I'm not sure we disagree) the critique that it's arbitrary falls a bit flat when fiat currency is also subject to something that is, arguably, also quite arbitrary: the whims of the government churning it out. It is how hyper-inflation always happens, whether in South America, Zimbabwe, and even the early United States (the Continental Dollar).

This does make things like Bitcoin interesting, as I believe the Bitcoin supply increases at a fixed, constant rate, which I think would be a new currency phenomenon? Curiously, Bitcoins have managed to go from virtually worthless in 2009 to over $3,000 this summer. This seems odd to me -- I'd think a currency with a steady increase in suppy would remain relatively stable, unless the increase was too low for expanded activity (I tend to imagine a fiat money supply as being like shares of stock in the country, though this doesn't work fully, such as declining prices during a recession).

[Shining Wrath]

I created my own currencies for my D&D setting, and to do that I wanted to set a ratio of the value of gold to silver, and silver to copper, in a quasi-medieval world.

Guess what? It's arbitrary. It varies all over the place. In fact, historically, the ratio g/s was a little higher on one side of the Channel than the other (I forget which), but the result was merchants engaging in international trade spent silver on one side and gold on the other.

If you then start asking what the price of wheat ought to be in ounces of gold, the answer is of course supply and demand - but the supply of gold also varies. In a global economy, the production of gold is simply not equally distributed among nations, or even anything close, which allows for an OPEC-like cartel of gold producers to form and decide what this year's inflation rate looks like. Not good.

[Jay R]

Silver and gold HAVE no intrinsic value though. It was already value by fiat. The only things with intrinsic value are necessities to live.

I see what you're trying to say, but that's not what the jargon phrase "fiat money" means.

People already value silver and gold. Buying something with gold or silver coins, or bills that are silver or gold certificates, are straightforward barter - trading one valued commodity for another. The coin does not get its value from the government printing on it; we already wanted the silver and the gold. The printing merely regularizes the value by telling you how much silver or gold it is. Silver and gold certificates represent actual silver or gold in the bank or treasury, and (when money was in that form), you could always go there and claim your metal. The printed bill was basically a deed for the stored metal. And it's not "value by fiat". Melt the coin down, and it's still worth the same amount. You'd just have to prove the actual metal content.

By contrast, "fiat money" does not represent an actual commodity. A modern "Federal Reserve Note" (in America) only has value because the government said it does. That's why the government printed, "This note is legal tender for all debts, public or private." We didn't particularly want those pieces of paper before the government put printing on it.

[JumboWheat01]

It is notably difficult to grasp for a lot of people who seem to instinctively expect 100 silver pieces to the gold piece and 100 copper pieces to the gold piece. The existence of the penny does not seem to help with this.

I think that's because so many games that use the Gold/Silver/Copper system go in 100s, rather than 10s. Heck, even Neverwinter Online has 100 copper to the silver and 100 silver to the gold, and it's set in the Realms!

[DataNinja]

Wow, I was never quite sure if the US was still using pennies or not, good to know. Now I just need to keep straight how long ago it was when we stopped using them.

I coulda sworn it was 2015, but, no. Apparently back in 2013...

(Also, it's fun going down to the States when visiting elderly relatives and bringing along toonies and plastic bills to show them and their friends. "What? This is actual money? You're joking, right?") :smallamused:

[Erys]

Silver and gold HAVE no intrinsic value though. It was already value by fiat. The only things with intrinsic value are necessities to live.

Negative.

Silver and gold are absolutely intrinsic. They have value in and of themselves and do not need a law to require you to use them as currency. People figured that out long ago because they serve all the essential requirements of money.


So unless you want to trade primarily in bushels of wheat, you'll need some level of abstraction and fiat in your currency.

Except food spoils... so it is no good as money.

You need no level of fiat money to have a thriving economy. IMHO, any who say otherwise are either the ones profiting the most from the shenanigans or those taught by those same people.


(See: the collapse of the Roman gold/silver currency during the Crisis of the third century, when hyperinflation due to insufficient gold for the size of the economy caused the imperial government to start collecting taxes in kind: shirts, wheat, bricklaying quotas, etc)

GW

This is not entirely true though... inflation/hyper inflation happened because the currency was being debased by those in charge of preserving it. I.e.: chipping coins so people lost faith in said economy.

Had they not done that in a greedy attempt to create more wealth for themselves... Rome may not have suffered as it did. But greed and politics, sadly, go hand in hand... true today as it was two thousand years ago.


Eh, metal-based currency is also subject to inflation. (The Spanish went bankrupt after conquering and looting the Americas in the 1500-1600s, partly due to inflation caused by a massive influx of gold. High military spending was the rest of the reason.)

If your currency is linked to gold, its value is based on the amount of gold available in the world - a rather arbitrary number, as gold has no intrinsic value ( compared to other metals it's not very useful, which is what made it a good currency) If your currency isn't linked to any metal its value is based on other people's/nations' confidence that you'll pay back your debts.

True! Spain suffered horrible inflation with the influx of "new money" into the system. Not much different than how fiat money ruins economies by printing new money.

Confidence is very arbitrary.

Gold/silver is stable largely because you can only pull some much out of the ground at a time. Unless you steal another countries gold, prices should only vary based on supply and demand.



Indeed. These days, the entirety of the gold known to exist on Earth (170000 tons - about 7 billion dollars) is obviously insufficient to cover anywhere near the needs of the US market. Heck, Apple alone has cash reserves larger than that... by two orders of magnitude.

GW

That presented value is based on fiat figures. If gold was the world currency (again) golds value would simply be higher. For something today that cost an ounce of gold (about $1200) would cost maybe half an ounce, or even a hundredth of an ounce.

There is always enough gold.

And, since buying power tends to increase with gold because its limited, it encourages saving money. Whereas fiat money encourages spending it quickly since any money saved might not get you as much a year from now as it does today.



This does make things like Bitcoin interesting, as I believe the Bitcoin supply increases at a fixed, constant rate, which I think would be a new currency phenomenon? Curiously, Bitcoins have managed to go from virtually worthless in 2009 to over $3,000 this summer. This seems odd to me -- I'd think a currency with a steady increase in suppy would remain relatively stable, unless the increase was too low for expanded activity (I tend to imagine a fiat money supply as being like shares of stock in the country, though this doesn't work fully, such as declining prices during a recession).

Bitcoin is very interesting. The recent uptick in "value" is rather shocking to me.

I suspect its reflective of people losing 'confidence' in other fiat monies and the fact that it is not connected to a central bank (yay!)... hence a rapid expanse in activity and a raise in perceived value.

But that is just a guess.

[Clistenes]

ALL weekdays are celebrations of ancient Roman/Germanic deities:

Sunday - obvious, it's the day of the Sun, or Sunna in OotSverse (or, in christian times, the Lord).
Monday - obvious again, it's the day of the Moon, or Mani in OotSverse. In Roman languages, it's Luna's day.
Tuesday - not entirely obvious, but this is Tyr's day, also called Ziu, Ciw, Tio. In Roman languages, it's Mars' day.
Wednesday - is, as was pointed out, Wodan's day, also called Odin. In Roman languages, it's Mercur's day, as these two gods were considered equivalent.
Thursday - obviously Thor's day. In Roman languages, it's Jupiter's day, again, these two were seen as equivalent.
Friday - seems obvious but isn't. Freya is well known today as a goddess of fertility, but most historians are stating that it's Frigg's day. Frigg, also called Frija was once better known, and weirdly considered to be equivalent to Venus (it's Venus' day in Roman languages). However, some historians believe that Freya is a mythological offshoot of Frija, so both goddesses might actually be the same.
Saturday - was the day of the ancient Roman god Saturn, and I really have no clue why there wasn't a germanic god(dess) to take care of that day.

About Friday, I think it is derived from Fríða (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frida_(given_name)), meaning "beloved, beautiful" which was another name for Freya, but probably for Frigga too... Freya and Frigga probably were two versions of the same goddess worshipped in two different regions that diverged enough to become two different goddesses. Freya's husband was Óðr (Od) (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%93%C3%B0r), which is one of the names of Odin, the husband of Frigga...

About Saturn, the germanic people took the roman names for the days and replaced the gods with their own, but they couldn't find a god that was similar enough to Saturn:

Day of the Sun = Day of the Sun = Sunday

Day of the Moon = Day of the Moon = Monday

Day of Mercury = Mmmmm... god of messengers? Hermod, maybe? But also guide of dead souls? Odin/Woden takes the souls of brave warriors to Valhalla, so Day of Woden, it is! = Wednesday

Day of Mars = God of war? Day of Tiwaz! = Tuesday

Day of Jupiter = God of thunder, powerful and sexual... Thor! = Thursday

Day of Venus = Goddess of Love... Frida! = Friday

Day of Saturn = God of the harvest... Frey, maybe? But he is also god of time and old age, and he is old... Frey is young... Father of Jupiter/Thor? Odin, maybe? But Odin already has a day, and Odin is not a god of the harvest... Eats his own children?! WTF?! I'm not touching this! I'll leave it as Day of Saturn! = Saturday

[woweedd]

About Friday, I think it is derived from Fríða (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frida_(given_name)), meaning "beloved, beautiful" which was another name for Freya, but probably for Frigga too... Freya and Frigga probably were two versions of the same goddess worshipped in two different regions that diverged enough to become two different goddesses. Freya's husband was Óðr (Od) (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%93%C3%B0r), which is one of the names of Odin, the husband of Frigga...

About Saturn, the germanic people took the roman names for the days and replaced the gods with their own, but they couldn't find a god that was similar enough to Saturn:

Day of the Sun = Day of the Sun = Sunday

Day of the Moon = Day of the Moon = Monday

Day of Mercury = Mmmmm... god of messengers? Hermod, maybe? But also guide of dead souls? Odin/Woden takes the souls of brave warriors to Valhalla, so Day of Woden, it is! = Wednesday

Day of Mars = God of war? Day of Tiwaz! = Tuesday

Day of Jupiter = God of thunder, powerful and sexual... Thor! = Thursday

Day of Venus = Goddess of Love... Frida! = Friday

Day of Saturn = God of the harvest... Frey, maybe? But he is also god of time and old age, and he is old... Frey is young... Father of Jupiter/Thor? Odin, maybe? But Odin already has a day, and Odin is not a god of the harvest... Eats his own children?! WTF?! I'm not touching this! I'll leave it as Day of Saturn! = Saturday
Not to be too strict here, but can I have some sources on the part I bolded?

[Clistenes]

Not to be too strict here, but can I have some sources on the part I bolded?

I'm sure if you look around you will find a site where they explain the origin of the days of the week in germanic languages...

I have just looked at Wikipedia (not the best of sources, but the quickest), and it says "The Germanic peoples adapted the system introduced by the Romans but glossed their indigenous gods over the Roman deities in a process known as interpretatio germanica. In the case of Saturday, however, the Roman name was borrowed directly by Westgermanic peoples, apparently because none of the Germanic gods were considered to be counterparts of the Roman god Saturn." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday)

Wikipedia also says that some germanic people just called Saturday "the day before Sunday..." ("In Old English, Saturday was also known as sunnanæfen ("sun" + "eve" cf. dialectal German Sonnabend" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday))


Never noticed the engish name for the days were mostly from the germanic gods. You learn something every day :)

The weird stuff is that while my language kept most of the roman gods names (Lundi for Luna, Mardi for Mars, Mercredi for Mercure, Jeudi for Jupiter, Vendredi for Venus...), the one we changed (Samedi) is the only Roman god the germanics kept (saturday).

The Latino/Catholic countries replaced the Day of the Sun for the Day of the Lord (Dominus Dei) and the Day of Saturn for Sabbath because of religious reasons...

[Jasdoif]

And, since buying power tends to increase with gold because its limited, it encourages saving money. Whereas fiat money encourages spending it quickly since any money saved might not get you as much a year from now as it does today.You make an interesting point: Fiat currency's very nature encourages exchanging it, bolstering its worth as a medium of exchange.

[Clistenes]

Heh. Now consider Japanese.

nichiyoubi — Sun weekday
getsuyoubi — Moon weekday
kayoubi — Fire weekday
suiyoubi — Water weekday
mokuyoubi — Wood weekday
kinyoubi — Metal weekday
doyoubi — Earth weekday

Sun and Moon are the same as European, but the rest seems completely different? Look at the planets (from the Sun outwards, skipping Earth):

(Mercury) suisei — Water star
(Venus) kinsei — Metal star
(Mars) kasei — Fire star
(Jupiter) mokusei — Wood star
(Saturn) dosei — Earth star
(Uranus) tennousei — Heaven king star
(Neptune) kaiousei — Sea king star
(Pluto) meiousei — Dark king star

The Japanese mapping of weekdays to elements to planets is the same as the European mapping of weekdays to gods to planets. Curious, huh?

I think kinyoubi means "gold weekday" and kinsei means "gold star"

You know what I find weird? The five classical elements in East Asia are Wood, Earth, Water, Air and Fire, and four of those are present in both the planets and the days of the week, but they have skipped Air, or rather, replaced it with "Gold"...

Uranus, Neptune and Pluto were all discovered quite recently (Uranus was discovered during the XVIII century, Neptune during the XIX century and Pluto during the XX century), so the japanese scientists created names that described the roman deities they were named after as close as they were able.


Considering the whole idea of the surrounding peoples equating their gods to the Roman pantheon was made up by 19th century German romantic nationalist academics looking to cover themselves in reflected glory, you are correct to be dubious.

Nope. The romans equated almost every god to one of their own deities. Baal was Jupiter, Toutatis was Mars, Wodan was Mercury... etc.

Wodan was assimilated to Mercury because the romans worshipped Mercury mostly as a guide of the souls of the dead (his greek counterpart Hermes was more popular, being a sort of Jack of al Trades among the gods that helped travellers, merchants, thieves, messengers, heralds...etc.), and Wodan was seen by the common germanic man mostly as a god of dead warriors.

Wodan had many other responsabilities, like royalty, divination, magic, fate...etc., but only kings and sorcerers dared to pray and sacrifice to Wodan, who was perceived as a dangeous, sinister deity (Thor/Donnar, Njord and Frey were more popular among sailors and peasants, Thor and Tiwaz were more popular among warriors, and Freya and Frigga among women), so most people barely ever thought about Wodan... except when a battle was close...


But in any case snakes and ravens in general are associated with death. To a Roman, confronted with a god with a couple of animal companions you'd normally not think of as pets, I can see the jump to the conclusion. Other connections - such as the traveling - would need to be explained to said Roman, but on seeing a picture of Odin with his staff & ravens may bring up a memory of Hermes with his staff and snakes, without needing for the translator to explain anything.

Actually, both snakes and ravens had mostly positive connotations among the Romans and the Greek. They were symbols of healing. The raven was the bird of Apollo a god of healing among other things, and the snake was sacred to Asclepios, god of medicine (non-venomous snakes lived in the temples of Asclepius).

That said Apollo was a god of epidemics and sudden deaths, so there may be a connection to death too...

You know, it is interesting how differently animals were seen in different regions of Europe. The wolf, for example was seen as a symbol of evil in the north of Europe, but was looked almost with sympathy in the south. The cat was well liked in the Mediterranean basin, but the Celts and Germans saw them as sinister creatures (Cath Palug, the Yule Cat, Caith Sith...etc.).

In the tales of the kingdom of Leon, in Spain, the wolf and the vixen are brother and sister; the wolf is the good (and dumb) one, while the vixen is the wicked (and cunning) one. When they make plans to steal food from humans, she always eats all the food and leaves him behind to be captured and beaten or killed. And despite that, when the vixen had a son, the wolf became his godfather and taught him how to hunt...

[Ironsmith]

I for one am grateful that they are doing this.

I have too much respect for Abe Lincoln to condone the loss of the penny.
Without the penny, the phrase "my two cents worth" would lose its meaning.
The phrase A penny for your thoughts? would pass further out of circulation.
I'd have to find a coin of more value to mark my golf ball on the green before putting
The easy understanding of the value of "a copper piece" in D&D would fade.


Keep the penny, it's not about the copper.

For the sake of the collective sanity of this thread, can we assume this was deadpan satire? I mean, in the grand scheme of things, those are some pretty petty (and more to the point, pretty obviously petty) reasons to keep minting the coin.

...

Buuut if not, some interesting counterpoints:


I'm sure Abe Lincoln would be more touched by keeping a profile of his face in circulation than by having the government make practical decisions with the people in mind.
"Rule of Thumb" had that same problem; There are two theories regarding where the phrase came from, one that claims it was as an improvised measuring stick for carpenters, and the other that it was a reference to how thick a stick a man could legally beat his wife with. Since carpentry is not nearly as prevalent a profession as it used to be, and wife beating is sort of, you know, horribly illegal these days, by all rights, the phrase should have fallen out of use. Guess what it didn't do?
Let's be honest, not many people use the phrase "a penny for your thoughts" these days, and the ones that do generally miss the original context, at least in part because a penny was actually worth something when the phrase was coined. (Ah? :smalltongue: Ah?) It's on the chopping block for natural progression of languages, anyway.
Marking a golf ball is nothing you couldn't do with a spare button or something. Hell, you could probably just keep a penny on hand and store it with your clubs, instead of just counting on someone to have one in their wallet somewhere.
Given that we don't use gold and platinum coins as currency anymore, I've gotta wonder at the validity of this statement to begin with.

[Clistenes]

Simply Put, It costs the US Gov more to print a penny than it is worth. In theory, you could buy rolls of american pennies from the bank, melt them down and sell them to the US Gov for more than the pennies cost you.

Also: Don't do that, its not worth your time.

Finally, The main reason there is still a penny around is the fact that there is a surprisingly active penny lobbyist community here in the US.

I wish I was making this up.

In my country it is illegal to destroy money (but it's never enforced, because nobody destroys money in large enough amounts)

The reason? You are the owner of the monetary value of the coin, and you can use it as a medium of exchange... But the government keeps the property of the physical coin.

Because having coins is good for the economy, and that benefit more than outweighs the high cost of minting the coin... But if people were to start destroying them, it would be a problem...

I have heard that there is some trouble with people buying eurocents in bulk and shipping them to China, where they are made into copper wire (not sure it is true, I lack a reliable source...).


Also, the lack of any significant industry: Spain was selling its wool to the Netherlands and buying it back as clothes, for example.

That was due to inflation too. Prices rose so much in Spain that it was cheaper to bring clothes made in the Netherlands than to buy clothes made the next town over... kind of like cheap chinese wares are flooding western markets now...

It could be avoided with the right politics... but inflation was so high when the government started to tax heavily both the wool exports and the imports of clothes, people still kept buying foreign-made clothes... and at that point, the government chose to keep receiving those taxes rather than outright banning wool exports and clothes imports...

[Erys]

You make an interesting point: Fiat currency's very nature encourages exchanging it, bolstering its worth as a medium of exchange.

Problem one, fiat currency is never a free exchange.

I don't accept Greenbacks because I think I can go to the bank and trade it for something tangible- that other people would also want and accept.

I do it because the law tells me that if I don't accept them- I will be punished.

[Jasdoif]

Problem one, fiat currency is never a free exchange.

I don't accept Greenbacks because I think I can go to the bank and trade it for something tangible- that other people would also want and accept.

I do it because the law tells me that if I don't accept them- I will be punished.Sounds like a lot of people would accept them, then.

[Erys]

Sounds like a lot of people would accept them, then.

If that were true we would need no laws enforcing there use.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This is not entirely true though... inflation/hyper inflation happened because the currency was being debased by those in charge of preserving it. I.e.: chipping coins so people lost faith in said economy.

Had they not done that in a greedy attempt to create more wealth for themselves... Rome may not have suffered as it did. But greed and politics, sadly, go hand in hand... true today as it was two thousand years ago.
False. They weren't greedy - they simply ran out of gold. Inflation happens whether you are on fiat or on gold-based economy. Eventually, the supply of Spanish & German gold ran out, and Rome had to debase the currency to keep up with the increased need for coins by an ever-increasing population. That is what caused the problem. Gold-backed coins is not a magical thing that stops inflation forever, as every country that has tried the silly idea has discovered.


Gold/silver is stable largely because you can only pull some much out of the ground at a time. Unless you steal another countries gold, prices should only vary based on supply and demand.
And because there is a limited supply, but the economy and population keep increasing, sooner or later you have two choices:
1) Stand by the stupid idea, in which case the economy grinds to a halt as there is insufficient money in the system
or
2) You debase the currency, at which point you have the worst of both fiat and gold-backed currencies, without the advantage of pure fiat.


That presented value is based on fiat figures. If gold was the world currency (again) golds value would simply be higher. For something today that cost an ounce of gold (about $1200) would cost maybe half an ounce, or even a hundredth of an ounce.
You've just torpedo'ed your own position. It turns out that gold-backed currency is not stable, that gold will have to increase in value so quickly that it can only be described as hyper-inflationary deflationary. Those that have the gold never spend it, because it will always be worth more the next day.


There is always enough gold.
History has proven that to be false again and again.


And, since buying power tends to increase with gold because its limited, it encourages saving money. Whereas fiat money encourages spending it quickly since any money saved might not get you as much a year from now as it does today.
So, in short: gold-backed currency encourages economies to stop investing and hoard. Fiat currencies promote investing and using the money, and in fact have a healthy amount of inflation, nature's tax on rich people. Sounds like fiat money is much better for a healthy economy. And indeed it is.

Grey Wolf

[The MunchKING]

I don't accept Greenbacks because I think I can go to the bank and trade it for something tangible- that other people would also want and accept.

I do it because the law tells me that if I don't accept them- I will be punished.

Not really, aside from the government won't protect your right to do business with whatever medium it is you've chosen.

If you refuse to use American dollars, all the US government will do is uphold the idea that businesses don't have to do business with you. You won't get thrown in jail or anything.

[2D8HP]

The more of Durkon"s memories that the Giant shows, the more I admire and respect the Dwarves.

Except for the noble example of Durkon himself, I mostly thought of the Dwarves as rigid-minded, hard-drinking, hard-fighting, tree-haters, but what I now see is a loving community devoted to each other.



...A modern "Federal Reserve Note" (in America)...

When I was a little kid, in the1970's, one of my classmates saw that they had an old bill that read "Redeemable in gold on demand at the United States Treasury, or in gold or lawful money at any Federal Reserve Bank"...

http://buygoldandsilversafely.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/10-bill-1929.png

...we all gathered around to look at it, and then a teacher grabbed it.

[Jasdoif]

It turns out that gold-backed currency is not stable, that gold will have to increase in value so quickly that it can only be described as hyper-inflationary. Those that have the gold never spend it, because it will always be worth more the next day.Wouldn't that be hyperdeflation?

[Aron Times]

I wonder if Durkon is trying to make the vampire more like him. It's an evil spirit, but it's still a thinking creature and the two are linked in a way that allows Durkon the ability to influence the vampire (if not actually make it do anything). So, show it a lot of memories and see if its opinions are as strong as it thinks.
I honestly believe that Durkon and Durkula will eventually merge into one gestalt soul. I think this is the fate of all vampires. Remember that line about Durkula being created from Durkon's darkest memories? I think that vampires experience some dissociation and it's not a fully separate soul, more like the Beast in Vampire: the Masquerade/Requiem, except it's the Beast in control and the Man caged within.

In either iteration of Vampire, vampires can achieve enlightenment called Golconda. It's not codified in any book but the way I understand it, it's not about the vampire overcoming his hunger, but rather accepting what he is. The Man and the Beast integrate into each other into a superior gestalt.

Durkula achieving Golconda will entail him and Durkon merging into one soul that has accepted its nature as an undead predator.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wouldn't that be hyperdeflation?

For the economy as a whole, yes. From the point of gold itself, I think it would still be inflation. However, that's quibbling and I did mean deflationary in my head, so I've corrected it above and given you proper credit.

GW

[2D8HP]

(Also, it's fun going down to the States when visiting elderly relatives and bringing along toonies and plastic bills to show them and their friends. "What? This is actual money? You're joking, right?") :smallamused:


While I'd be worried that I wouldn't be able to spend it, I was often delighted when I found that I got Canadian money as change (mostly because I thought that Queen Elizabeth 2 looked foxy on the money).

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's deflationary. How fast it changes determines the 'hyper' adverb.

And there is indeed plenty of gold in the earth, something like a few quintillion tons of it. We just need to figure out how to mine it out of the mantle.

[Erys]

False. They weren't greedy - they simply ran out of gold. Inflation happens whether you are on fiat or on gold-based economy. Eventually, the supply of Spanish & German gold ran out, and Rome had to debase the currency to keep up with the increased need for coins by an ever-increasing population. That is what caused the problem. Gold-backed coins is not a magical thing that stops inflation forever, as every country that has tried the silly idea has discovered.


And because there is a limited supply, but the economy and population keep increasing, sooner or later you have two choices:
1) Stand by the stupid idea, in which case the economy grinds to a halt as there is insufficient money in the system
or
2) You debase the currency, at which point you have the worst of both fiat and gold-backed currencies, without the advantage of pure fiat.


You've just torpedo'ed your own position. It turns out that gold-backed currency is not stable, that gold will have to increase in value so quickly that it can only be described as hyper-inflationary. Those that have the gold never spend it, because it will always be worth more the next day.


History has proven that to be false again and again.


So, in short: gold-backed currency encourages economies to stop investing and hoard. Fiat currencies promote investing and using the money, and in fact have a healthy amount of inflation, nature's tax on rich people. Sounds like fiat money is much better for a healthy economy. And indeed it is.

Grey Wolf

Romes population booms were not from births, but conquest. A nation that expands too fast will fall. And when you debase your currency, no matter how pure- you fall even harder.

Fiat currency will always seem like a boon at first, because in an instant you create money to fund projects that will then be used by the workers to buy food and from which you can take back in the form of taxes. There is no limit to projects because there is no limit to how much you can create. But as the money supply swells the value of each note becomes less and less, and eventually the amount of money that used to fill a grocery cart thirty years ago will only buy you four or five items today

By contrast gold and silver currency does not generally allow fast paced projects. You can only pull the metal so fast out of the ground, therefore you can only inject so much new coin into the economy*- ergo it has stability built in.

If, say, corn became too plentiful, its value in respect to gold or silver coins goes down. If corn get too plentiful and people literally stop buying it, knowing tomorrow they can get more corn if they wait... corn farmers will start to go out of business. Corn will start to disappear and its relative value will return.

*Outside factors and inside corruption not withstanding. A government, and people of power, desire control. It is counter intuitive to horde all the money because then you have no structure for which to rule over. If the respective powers that be ignore the inherent balance within the intrinsic system, opting to conquer and acquire too fast, be too generous in allowing new people within their borders, or adding too much new money into the money supply at one time- they can break it.

[Erys]

Not really, aside from the government won't protect your right to do business with whatever medium it is you've chosen.

If you refuse to use American dollars, all the US government will do is uphold the idea that businesses don't have to do business with you. You won't get thrown in jail or anything.

Try paying your taxes in something other than FRNs.

[Erys]

When I was a little kid, in the1970's, one of my classmates saw that they had an old bill that read "Redeemable in gold on demand at the United States Treasury, or in gold or lawful money at any Federal Reserve Bank"...

http://buygoldandsilversafely.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/10-bill-1929.png

...we all gathered around to look at it, and then a teacher grabbed it.

The history of that little phrase should be taught in every classroom.

[danielxcutter]

How the heck did we start talking about this?!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Romes population booms were not from births, but conquest.
Rome stopped expanding through conquest long before the Crisis of the third century. Trajan, the last Emperor to push out the borders, had been dead for 150 years at that point.


A nation that expands too fast will fall.
False. Rome expanded extraordinarily quickly under the Republic and early Empire... and then continued to exist without failing for hundreds of years after that. Unless, of course, you are playing word games and "too fast" means only what you need it to mean for you to not be spouting nonsense.


And when you debase your currency, no matter how pure- you fall even harder.
Says you. History says otherwise.


Fiat currency will always seem like a boon at first, because in an instant you create money to fund projects that will then be used by the workers to buy food and from which you can take back in the form of taxes. There is no limit to projects because there is no limit to how much you can create. But as the money supply swells the value of each note becomes less and less, and eventually the amount of money that used to fill a grocery cart thirty years ago will only buy you four or five items today
Yes, I'm aware of what inflation is. But your word is not enough to simply declare it "bad". Other than for the extreme rich and people who like to complain about how they used to buy gum for ridiculously "low prices" back in the day, even though purchasing power remains roughly stable between then and now.


By contrast gold and silver currency does not generally allow fast paced projects. You can only pull the metal so fast out of the ground, therefore you can only inject so much new coin into the economy*- ergo it has stability built in.

Stability is what you call it. Stagnation is what reality calls it. Nothing you have said disputes or even explains why a country running out of currency due to natural inflation due to population growth would be a good thing. As Europe discovered at the onset of industrialization, when the hard currencies cannot keep up with economic growth, you either abandon the metal or crash your economy. As simple as that. No amount of decrying "stability" helps when development outstrips mining.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

If, say, corn became too plentiful, its value in respect to gold or silver coins goes down. If corn get too plentiful and people literally stop buying it, knowing tomorrow they can get more corn if they wait... corn farmers will start to go out of business. Corn will start to disappear and its relative value will return.How is that any different than with fiat currency?

[DataNinja]

While I'd be worried that I wouldn't be able to spend it, I was often delighted when I found that I got Canadian money as change (mostly because I thought that Queen Elizabeth 2 looked foxy on the money).

I don't believe that you're able to spend Canadian currency in the States, I may be wrong, though. (Though the reverse is true, we'll accept American tender... though it's usually a bit annoying for the cashiers, because exchange rates necessitates using the conversion mode. So, for their sake, try not to mix currencies, please.)

[Erys]

Rome stopped expanding through conquest long before the Crisis of the third century. Trajan, the last Emperor to push out the borders, had been dead for 150 years at that point.


False. Rome expanded extraordinarily quickly under the Republic and early Empire... and then continued to exist without failing for hundreds of years after that. Unless, of course, you are playing word games and "too fast" means only what you need it to mean for you to not be spouting nonsense.


Says you. History says otherwise.


Yes, I'm aware of what inflation is. But your word is not enough to simply declare it "bad". Other than for the extreme rich and people who like to complain about how they used to buy gum for ridiculously "low prices" back in the day, even though purchasing power remains roughly stable between then and now.


Stability is what you call it. Stagnation is what reality calls it. Nothing you have said disputes or even explains why a country running out of currency due to natural inflation due to population growth would be a good thing. As Europe discovered at the onset of industrialization, when the hard currencies cannot keep up with economic growth, you either abandon the metal or crash your economy. As simple as that. No amount of decrying "stability" helps when development outstrips mining.

Grey Wolf


The Crisis of the Third Century, also known as Military Anarchy or the Imperial Crisis (AD 235–284), was a period in which the Roman Empire nearly collapsed under the combined pressures of invasion, civil war, plague, and economic depression.

***
Internally, the empire faced hyperinflation caused by years of coinage devaluation. This had started earlier under the Severan emperors who enlarged the army by one quarter[4] and doubled the legionaries' base pay. As each of the short-lived emperors took power, he needed ways to raise money quickly to pay the military's "accession bonus" and the easiest way to do so was by inflating the coinage severely, a process made possible by debasing the coinage with bronze and copper.

wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_the_Third_Century)

Again, outside factors and inside corruption not withstanding. A government, and people of power, desire control. It is counter intuitive to horde all the money because then you have no structure for which to rule over. If the respective powers that be ignore the inherent balance within the intrinsic system, opting to conquer and acquire too fast, be too generous in allowing new people within their borders, or adding too much new money into the money supply at one time- they can break it.

In Romes case they had outside factors, inside corruption, AND they debased their currency. They swelled their money supply artificially by chipping coins and it aided in their demise.

[Erys]

How is that any different than with fiat currency?

With fiat currency it is much easier to add more money to the existing money supply. Because of this inflation (decreased buying power) is built into the system.

Even if the rate of consumption and production of corn are stable, the price will go up.

[2D8HP]

I honestly believe that Durkon and Durkula will eventually merge into one gestalt soul. I think this is the fate of all vampires. Remember that line about Durkula being created from Durkon's darkest memories?....


U find it interesting that Greg/Durkula has to get Durkon to show most useful memories (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html), but the Vampire has all the negative emotion memories so automatically that they can show them to a captive soul (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html).




....since buying power tends to increase with gold because its limited, it encourages saving money. Whereas fiat money encourages spending it quickly since any money saved might not get you as much a year from now as it does today.....


When you explain it that way (since one persons spending is another persons income) I'm definitely glad that we got off the gold standard then.

:smile:




...both snakes and ravens had mostly positive connotations among the Romans and the Greek. They were symbols of healing. The raven was the bird of Apollo a god of healing among other things, and the snake was sacred to Asclepios, god of medicine (non-venomous snakes lived in the temples of Asclepius)...


Oh boy! I love the mythology lessons!

Please keep them coming!

:biggrin:

[Erys]

When you explain it that way (since one persons spending is another persons income) I'm definitely glad that we got off the gold standard then.


Yeah, its great, till it crashes and a cup of coffee cost 10 grand.

[F.Harr]

Two really cute okes. Heh.

Hehehe

He heh heh heh.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA!

[Kish]

Yeah, its great, till it crashes and a cup of coffee cost 10 grand.
Given that by your own assertion (some time back) a gold standard causes people to try to gather money rather than spending it freely, and that those who are already rich are always better equipped to attract more money than those who are poor, even if your casual and unsupported assertion here was true (it seems mysteriously unproven outside of fiction--which is exactly the same as completely unproven, I hope you realize), it's not "ten grand" vs. "a reasonable price"--it's "ten grand" versus "infinity, since the potential purchaser is one of the vast majority of the world's population who haven't been able to hoard gold and can buy nothing."

[The MunchKING]

Try paying your taxes in something other than FRNs.

Well if you refuse to accept American dollars, you won't have any income in America, so your federal income taxes will be zero.

Property and other taxes are local, so I can't speak for what they are where you live.


I don't believe that you're able to spend Canadian currency in the States, I may be wrong, though. (Though the reverse is true, we'll accept American tender... though it's usually a bit annoying for the cashiers, because exchange rates necessitates using the conversion mode. So, for their sake, try not to mix currencies, please.)

I think near the border, stores will take it, but they need to do conversions too. it's up to the stores in question really.


Yeah, its great, till it crashes and a cup of coffee cost 10 grand.

"It's great until the gold crashes and a cup of coffee costs a wheelbarrow full of gold".

I mean it's the same argument really... What makes gold have a set value that can't be a victim of inflation?

[Snails]

I mean it's the same argument really... What makes gold have a set value that can't be a victim of inflation?

In fact, it is arguable that gold inflation and silver inflation crashed the Spanish economy so badly, that centuries later the damage is not repaired. Once the flood of New World gold ran out, Spain was simply left in the dust by competing nations that avoided both the biggest short term benefits and the brunt of the long term catastrophe.

A little inflation or a little deflation does not matter, in most years. It is the crises that prove out the superiority of fiat currency. It is very far from inevitable that fiat currencies will ever suffer severe inflation. But it is a trap built into the gold standard that a financial crises can create a sudden downward spiral reinforced by a deflationary feedback loop.

Severe inflation and severe deflation are both real risks to an economy, at least at the theoretical level. The gold standard argument is built on a very strongly biased assumption that inflation is a vastly greater threat that completely dwarves any potential downsides of deflation. Such an argument cannot be sustained by a rational examination of the historical record.

[Erys]

Given that by your own assertion (some time back) a gold standard causes people to try to gather money rather than spending it freely, and that those who are already rich are always better equipped to attract more money than those who are poor, even if your casual and unsupported assertion here was true (it seems mysteriously unproven outside of fiction--which is exactly the same as completely unproven, I hope you realize), it's not "ten grand" vs. "a reasonable price"--it's "ten grand" versus "infinity, since the potential purchaser is one of the vast majority of the world's population who haven't been able to hoard gold and can buy nothing."

Saving does not automatically equal hoarding. People will still buy food, homes, cloths, TVs, computers, games, yachts, concert tickets, fast food, and the like. Just like today.

While under certain circumstances intrinsic economies can experience hyper inflation and death. Fiat currencies always do. Over time the amount of money in circulation will become too great and the cost of goods will skyrocket. There are many examples of the price of coffee being 10 grand, or bread costing 10 million (https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2008/0325/p06s02-woaf.html) units of that nations currency.



Well if you refuse to accept American dollars, you won't have any income in America, so your federal income taxes will be zero.

Property and other taxes are local, so I can't speak for what they are where you live.

Yeah, sure, you can opt to conduct your business with just barter and trade; when it comes to paying to keep the lights on and doors open... all debts must be paid in FRNs.




"It's great until the gold crashes and a cup of coffee costs a wheelbarrow full of gold".

I mean it's the same argument really... What makes gold have a set value that can't be a victim of inflation?

The amount of gold that can be taken from the earth at a time and how fast it can be refined limits how fast it can enter in circulation; its one of the main reasons gold and silver make great currencies. Generally the only way an intrinsic economy sees inflation is when they conquer/claim new gold and immediately add it to the existing money supply.

[The MunchKING]

That's not the government punishing you though, that's the electric company refusing to take your money.

I am just saying the government isn't the bad guy in this scenario...

[Kardwill]

Well if you refuse to accept American dollars, you won't have any income in America, so your federal income taxes will be zero.

Isn't barter taxed in America? I know it is in France, which caused many self-sufficient newage communities in the country to crash and burn : They had no external income, but were still taxed over their internal "economy".

[Fishman]

No, there is no such connection, and no, the USA do not use Hermes's staff to represent medicine for that reason.

Hermes's staff is the Caduceus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus). The only reason it's used in medicine is that American people got confused between the Caduceus and the Rod of Asclepius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius), which is an actual symbol of medicine.
Americans are not confused when they use the caduceus on hospitals. We mean it: Hermes is the god of tricksters, lawyers, and thieves, and this is what hospitals represent here.

[theNater]

Yeah, its great, till it crashes and a cup of coffee cost 10 grand.
So you give the barista two 6 grand coins, drop your 2 grand of change in the tip jar, take your coffee and go.