D&D Beyond Pricing Released

[McNinja]

D&D Beyond has released it's pricing structure. Be aware that you do (somehow) receive offline access to the book you purchase via DNDB.

The announcement:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/pricing-details

FAQ for the pricing:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/beta-testing-feedback/5743-faq-d-d-beyond-pricing-purchase

Announcement forum post:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/news-announcements/5742-full-pricing-details-for-d-d-beyond

Comments on the pricing:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/825-mega-thread-user-thoughts-subscriptions-costs-and

How their subscriptions work:
http://www.dndbeyond.com/full-subscription-details-for-d-d-beyond

Associated thread:
http://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/news-announcements/5772-full-subscription-details-for-d-d-beyond

It personally don't like it one bit. My issues are:
- books purchases are absurd if you already own the books.
- ads still show on other parts of the site if you buy books. They don't show on the specific content you buy.
- only a subscription removes ads and removes the arbitrary limit on created characters.
- the costs of buying individual races, items, feats, or spells is steep.

[Hooligan]

It's like they tried to make up for being late to the party by defecating in a trash can and calling it a present.

[Blacky the Blackball]

The pricing is utterly ridiculous.

It wouldn't be so bad if they were providing something like an improved Roll20, but from what I can see they've just got searchable e-books and a character builder. And you even have to pay extra for the e-book content!

There's nothing on there that is worth paying anything for, assuming you have the physical books. And if you don't already have the physical books the prices are set high enough that you might as well just buy the physical books.

If they want the service to be a replacement for the books, they need to price it a lot lower. And if they want it to be an addition to the books that's actually worth paying extra for they need to give it a much better feature set.

As it stands, it's not something I'd pay a penny for - never mind the ridiculous prices they're asking for e-book access.

[Anonymouswizard]

But they still won't put pdfs on DriveThruRPG/DMsGuild, where everybody and their mum wants them? Even if they were still those jerks that charge £20 for ebooks it would be less annoying (and let's be honest, they're already charging more for less of a service).

Honestly, the reason I like pdfs is that I can stick them all on a memory stick and carry them without breaking my back, and then use them when not connected to the internet (which isn't completely uncommon), or just print out the sections I need. This is exactly the opposite of what most people I know want from them (which is....... official pdfs on DriveThruRPG/RPGNow/DMsGuild).

[McNinja]

But they still won't put pdfs on DriveThruRPG/DMsGuild, where everybody and their mum wants them? Even if they were still those jerks that charge £20 for ebooks it would be less annoying (and let's be honest, they're already charging more for less of a service).

Honestly, the reason I like pdfs is that I can stick them all on a memory stick and carry them without breaking my back, and then use them when not connected to the internet (which isn't completely uncommon), or just print out the sections I need. This is exactly the opposite of what most people I know want from them (which is....... official pdfs on DriveThruRPG/RPGNow/DMsGuild).

I'll have to add this to the OP since the DNDB mods don't seem to think this is important:

You do get offline access to the books you buy. They are not in an ebook or pdf format, but you do get offline access.

[Anonymouswizard]

I'll have to add this to the OP since the DNDB mods don't seem to think this is important:

You do get offline access to the books you buy. They are not in an ebook or pdf format, but you do get offline access.

The question is, can I stick them on a USB stick? Because if not I have to go online to get them, which defeats the point of being able to use them offline...

[McNinja]

The question is, can I stick them on a USB stick? Because if not I have to go online to get them, which defeats the point of being able to use them offline...
Honestly I have no idea. I'd assume you'd be able to download the tool to your phone, because the compendium is 100% proprietary. The FAQ doesn't make much of an attempt to explain it.

[jaappleton]

If I get a subscription, do I get access to all the content, so long as my subscription is active?

As in, can I forgo purchasing the books and just subscribe?

[McNinja]

If I get a subscription, do I get access to all the content, so long as my subscription is active?

As in, can I forgo purchasing the books and just subscribe?
Nope. All a subscription gets you is:
- removes ads
- removes the limit on the character creator
- allows you to share your stuff with others



Players can get the most out their D&D Beyond experience by signing up for one of two subscription tiers:

The Hero Tier at $2.99/ month is intended primarily for players. It removes ads on the site, allows players to create an unlimited number of characters, and add publicly-shared homebrew content to your collection to use within the toolset.

The Master Tier at $5.99/ month is intended primarily for Dungeon Masters and full groups. It grants all the benefits of the Hero Tier, and also allows a DM to share all her unlocked official content with other players within a campaign - so content does not have to be unlocked by every player.

[McNinja]

Added the FAQ to the OP.

Also, there is a difference between "compendium only" and "full sourcebook" content. It was added a bit ago to the FAQ.


The compendium content includes the full pages of content that you can read through - in essence all of the content of the physical book. Think of it like an online browsable version of the Player's Handbook.

It does NOT include digital assets that can be used with the character creator.

For example, if you purchase, PHB Compendium Content, you have the full Player's Handbook that you can read, reference and search through using D&D Beyond. However, you would not unlock the ability to use the additional subraces, subclasses, spells, feats etc for use in the character creator.

If you should later decide that you would like the digital assets as well, you can upgrade to the full Player's Handbook by paying the difference.

[Anonymouswizard]

Reading the FAQ, and $29.99 is the lowest price they've seen for a digital sourcebook? That's interesting, it's actually relatively hard to find ones so expensive, they generally seem to be about $19.99. Quite a few down at $14.99 and $9.99 as well, have they actually ever browsed DriveThruRPG? (Just going through it now I'll pull out the Star Trek Adventures core rules (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/214552/Star-Trek-Adventures-Core-Rulebook?src=hottest), Fantasy AGE Basic Rulebook (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/153066/Fantasy-AGE-Basic-Rulebook?term=fantasy+age&test_epoch=0), Vampire the Requiem 2e (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/123898/Vampire-The-Requiem-2nd-Edition?term=vampire+the+requiem+edition&test_epoch=0), The Dresden Files: Your Story (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/80984/Dresden-Files-RPG-Your-Story?term=dresden+files&test_epoch=0), and the Rocket age core rulebook (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/117400/Rocket-Age---Core-Rulebook?term=rocket+age&test_epoch=0) as evidence that plenty of core rulebooks are available for less as digital books [although those also often cost $29.99, e.g. the Dr Who RPG, Exalted 3e, and the oWoD 20ths], and supplements are generally cheaper.)

Oh, and the hints seem to be no 'stick on a memory stick and go' option. Seriously, all I want is a pdf I can carry in my pocket. But not, I have to use a mobile app (which I hate).

Oh god, the 'pay three times for the sourcebook' hint turned out to be true. Say, anybody remember how a lot of companies are doing Bits and Mortar and other ways to get free pdfs with your physical book?

[jaappleton]

Beyond is such a damn joke if these are the price points. Seriously, **** this thing.

[Easy_Lee]

From my experiences with D&D Online, I had a feeling something like this might happen. Subscriptions that don't even grant you access, having to pay for the same thing multiple times, arbitrarily limited character slots, it's the same thing all over again.

I don't know what WotC's deal is. I don't know if it's corporate greed or just seriously outdated ideas about pricing. Maybe they're all still living back in the eighties when online-anything was expensive and fantasy gamers took what they could get and were grateful for it. I can't say.

But what I can say is that for those prices, I'd just write everything up myself. Writing relevant rules and features down in a journal is faster access and better for memory, anyway.

[Discord]

I blame Hasbro

[mgshamster]

Pricing is comparable to their leading competitor: Paizo.

Look at HeroLab, the primary competitor for D&D Beyond.

Adventure pricing is $25, for both HeroLab PF and D&D Beyond. PF Core books are $13-35 each, but considering there's 9 rule book add-ons, 7 essential rule books, and the two core books (CRB + B1), it's competitive.

PF CRB: $25 (or $35 plus access to other books, with prices as low as $13/splat book)
D&D PHB: $30 (discounted to $20 for week 1, no increased cost to access other books).

Looking at the HeroLab price guide, all their starting books for all of their games are $25 for the core book, plus some more to access full packages available.

This is the market research they did. They looked at their primary competitor and no further.

[Anonymouswizard]

*good analysis of likely source for pricing*

This is the market research they did. They looked at their primary competitor and no further.

How silly of me to look at a site dedicated to selling pdfs from all companies to determine the lowest price I've seen for a source book (~$5, after excluding free and PWYW, although I suspect if I dug further I could find $2 because I remember it). I should have just looked at one company that happens to be my biggest competitor.

This is just insane. I'd rather pay £15/$20 for the core rulebook for The Dark Eye/DSA in pdf format. Heck, even if they charged $30 dollars for that book I'd still be getting more game for my money. :smallannoyed:

Oh, and even though I don't own it, I do know that the PF CRB includes the GM's stuff as well. I don't own it because I don't want it.

Every time WotC seems to prove they have competent people on their team I see the evidence of people not doing their research and despair anew.

[Tetrasodium]

I'll have to add this to the OP since the DNDB mods don't seem to think this is important:

You do get offline access to the books you buy. They are not in an ebook or pdf format, but you do get offline access.

WotC can't disintegrate your dead tree format book when they get bored of yet another too late digital thing & dump it too.

[mgshamster]

How silly of me to look at a site dedicated to selling pdfs from all companies to determine the lowest price I've seen for a source book (~$5, after excluding free and PWYW, although I suspect if I dug further I could find $2 because I remember it). I should have just looked at one company that happens to be my biggest competitor.

Ha! Yeah. :)

Our mistake was looking at PDFs for market comparison. WotC is not selling PDFs. They're selling a product competing with HeroLab - a character generators program. So that's the pricing they're trying to be competitive with.

I bet that their internal logic is: "Sure, we're back little pricier than PF on HL, but we have fewer books so the over all cost is cheaper."

I also predict that they're going to turn D&D Beyond into a competitor for Roll20 in the future. Otherwise, what's the point of including the adventures in the program? If they did that, the price would be more in line with the true value.

[Matrix_Walker]

Asking people to pay that much for books they probably already own in print is a recipe for disaster. This is going to be a major fail for them.

[mgshamster]

Asking people to pay that much for books they probably already own in print is a recipe for disaster. This is going to be a major fail for them.

People said the same thing about HeroLab when it came out. They're still going strong.

I predict this will work out just fine. May have to adjust the price in the future, but I find it unlikely that they'll do so. 5e has a large enough base that it will still be profitable for them.

[Anonymouswizard]

Ha! Yeah. :)

Our mistake was looking at PDFs for market comparison. WotC is not selling PDFs. They're selling a product competing with HeroLab - a character generators program. So that's the pricing they're trying to be competitive with.

The thing is, that's not what they're telling us they're selling. Looking at it I can see that this is what they're selling, but from what they've written we're getting a super-SRD with attached character builder, while HeroLab is primarily a character builder.


I bet that their internal logic is: "Sure, we're back little pricier than PF on HL, but we have fewer books so the over all cost is cheaper."

Sure, but looking at HeroLab it's something I'm much more likely to buy. I can get a lot more out of it for only $5 extra at time of purchase (... of course I'm getting the authoring kit first, it allows me to use it for games like Victoriana who don't have this service).

Actually, I'm getting the free version of HeroLab to try it out, it includes Fate Core. Plus the Pathfinder beginner box, but I'm more interested in Fate. I've been looking for a good way to generate electronic Fate characters, especially NPCs.


I also predict that they're going to turn D&D Beyond into a competitor for Roll20 in the future. Otherwise, what's the point of including the adventures in the program? If they did that, the price would be more in line with the true value.

I mean, I suspect the current reason for the adventures is 'superSRD', but I wouldn't be surprised if it happened.


Asking people to pay that much for books they probably already own in print is a recipe for disaster. This is going to be a major fail for them.

Honestly, I suspect even a short term 'send us a picture of your face, book, and receipt and we'll give you a free copy, only valid for one month' promotion would go a long way towards easing the resentment I can feel coming. If this even matters long term (because honestly, there's going to be 5 different copies of each PhB subclass as 'homebrew' within a week). It'll depend on how easy adding homebrew is.

[Hypersmith]

Nope. All a subscription gets you is:
- removes ads
- removes the limit on the character creator
- allows you to share your stuff with others

You can't even share without a sub? lol, well I'm not even attracted to this then. Shame, I thought it would turn out well.

[Hooligan]

The question I'll always ask myself is:
What does this give me that Roll20 doesn't provide for free?

[Pex]

Bah!

In my day I had to lug my Player's Handbook up hill both ways. Tablets? Ptooey. We used actual paper character sheets that would get stained by soda and greasy fingers and pencils that would run out of eraser before you know it. You kids have it too easy.

[Gwalchavad]

This is interesting - I've kind of been waiting for the DndBeyond topic to be brought up here to get a good view of what the reaction would be outside of the beta echo chamber. It is - well, pretty much exactly what I thought it would be.

A few things - even though Wizards has slapped their name all over the product in their press releases, DndBeyond isn't actually Wizards - it's actually a web company called Curse who are licensing D&D 5e from Wizards.

If all you want are pdf or kindle style digital books, yeah, this sucks and Wizards really hasn't "moved into the 21st century" like their marketing would have you believe. That said, if all you want is the info in the books available in a digital format, the prices aren't *too* bad - the compendium content is $20 for the corebooks, which is about the price point I'd see Wizards trying sell pdfs for if they could get away with it.

If you want to use the character or homebrew generators (and the hopefully forthcoming DM tools such as encounter builders and so on), that's where the $30/book hits you. And yeah, assuming you just use the 3 core books, $90 for the services they offer right now is a bit steep.

I'll be getting the books to use in the generators, but I'll be buying during the first week sale when the core books are a $60 investment. That's about the sweet spot for me for a software suite. But, I also never run pre-published adventures, so the only further cost for me would be things like Volo's and the backgrounds and subclasses from SCAG, and whatever looks good when Xanathar's comes out. I can understand how the adventure costs might be a bit much for those of you who run them (as someone who until this year last played 2nd edition, anything over $5 seems crazy to me, dead tree or not!).

And a small plus for everyone that games online - after DndBeyond launches, the adventures and core books content for FantasyGrounds (not sure about Roll20 - though I know they will have that option if they choose to go for it) will be coming down to match the DndBeyond prices. Apparently the Curse team was able to present the case to Wizards that their overall digital prices were too high and the DndBeyond prices will be the new standard for VTTs that license the D&D brand.

I will say that I see a lot of potential in the beta. I wish they'd flesh out more things before release - the DM tools are embarrassingly skimpy (a campaign name, a single field for hidden and player notes each), using the 4d6 drop lowest method of character creation requires rolling physical dice, and beta testers haven't had a chance to play with the soon-to-be released mobile app that is supposed to allow offline access which tells me the first few updates of the app will probably be horrendously buggy. But at the same time, the beta has helped me flesh out a few high level NPCs complete with custom magic items in just a few minutes and I would really like to see DndBeyond become a "one stop shopping" site for DMs to manage their campaigns.

[Easy_Lee]

Asking people to pay that much for books they probably already own in print is a recipe for disaster. This is going to be a major fail for them.

I hope this is the case. I really hope D&D fans don't accept this system. Expecting people to purchase the same content multiple times is unacceptable, regardless of the price.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I wanted it to be better, but I had a feeling it was going to turn out this way. This is the horse armor of D&D.

[jaappleton]

I wanted it to be better, but I had a feeling it was going to turn out this way. This is the horse armor of D&D.

It'd be a lot easier to accept if people who already owned copies of the books could get digital versions through Beyond for a discounted rate.

[Waterdeep Merch]

It'd be a lot easier to accept if people who already owned copies of the books could get digital versions through Beyond for a discounted rate.
Yeah, it's just not reasonable to ask people to pay for something they already own a second time for mild convenience. My group has five different PHB's, two DMG's, and three MM's already on top of two SCAG's and one Volo's. I allow all of it in my games. So to make this worthwhile for me, I'd need to sink a bare minimum of $150 alongside a $6/monthly Master subscription to realistically utilize it, as the group's primary DM, all for rules that I already bought and have legal access to.

[jaappleton]

Yeah, it's just not reasonable to ask people to pay for something they already own a second time for mild convenience. My group has five different PHB's, two DMG's, and three MM's already on top of two SCAG's and one Volo's. I allow all of it in my games. So to make this worthwhile for me, I'd need to sink a bare minimum of $150 alongside a $6/monthly Master subscription to realistically utilize it, as the group's primary DM, all for rules that I already bought and have legal access to.

Exactly.

It's somewhat mitigated if your table of 5 people total says, "Ok, each of us will pitch in __ and we'll all use the account", but... Yuck.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yet I'm certain there's already people who have bought it three times. :smallsigh: But if anyone but Wizards of the Cost did this without a significant price drop there would be rage among most of their customer base (okay, Paizo might be able to get away with it, but they already put everything on their SRD which generates goodwill). As it is most of D&D's customers don't play other RPGs, how will they know how it's done in the industry at large.

I'm not giving WotC any money until they're dragged into the 21st century, kicking and screaming if necessary. So no pdf for me.

[Easy_Lee]

Yet I'm certain there's already people who have bought it three times. :smallsigh: But if anyone but Wizards of the Cost did this without a significant price drop there would be rage among most of their customer base (okay, Paizo might be able to get away with it, but they already put everything on their SRD which generates goodwill). As it is most of D&D's customers don't play other RPGs, how will they know how it's done in the industry at large.

I'm not giving WotC any money until they're dragged into the 21st century, kicking and screaming if necessary. So no pdf for me.

All of tabletop gaming needs to be dragged into the 21st century if you ask me. It's too difficult to find local groups for almost anything besides D&D. Roll20 and similar are good, but they don't quite match up to a physical table.

It's possible that, similar to work from home for most jobs, the technology just isn't quite there yet.

[obryn]

The idea of paying $300 up-front for a glorified character builder and SRD is comical.

[jaappleton]

The idea of paying $300 up-front for a glorified character builder and SRD is comical.

Precisely. It's a damn joke.

There's plenty of other character builders available.

[Pex]

Exactly.

It's somewhat mitigated if your table of 5 people total says, "Ok, each of us will pitch in __ and we'll all use the account", but... Yuck.

Sounds fair, but I would be reluctant due to reality. (No snark intended.) By reality I mean that life happens and gaming groups don't last forever. I have been fortunate to be in one group that lasted 12 years, but that was a glorious exception. We sort of have a reunion with my recently joining a group that has two other players from that group. Unless you're an already established group with confidence you'll remain such, it's too risky to ask this of players just forming a new group or have been in one for a couple of months when this website appears. What happens if someone has to leave for non-gaming related reasons? What if there are issues that would result in a player quitting or getting kicked out? What if the DM can't be the DM anymore for whatever reason? Who has control of the account? Who makes the subscription payments? It can get ugly fast.

[Finlam]

It can get ugly fast.

I believe that's when you roll for initiative.

[Cybren]

I hope this is the case. I really hope D&D fans don't accept this system. Expecting people to purchase the same content multiple times is unacceptable, regardless of the price.

if it was $5 a book i'd accept it quite a bit, actually. But full price or even half price is too much. I already own two copies of most of my books thanks to roll20

[Theodoxus]

Bwahahahha

They're so late to the table.... Hero Labs: for a flat $20 fee that gets you all the content WotC has produced to build as many characters as you want with. You can pay for 3rd party bundles if you're a fan of Green Ronin et al.

You can get PDFs of any book if you look hard enough online...

Cat's out of the bag, WotC... this is for either very honest folk or friends and family of WotC employees who don't want to be caught with 3rd party apps and/or pirated material.

Give me a break.

Maybe for D&D6 they can start off with a proprietary app and have everything digital which will make it hard (not impossible, but harder) to convert to PDF and generate revenue that way... I doubt they'll sacrifice their brick and mortar FLGS, but maybe...

[mgshamster]

Bwahahahha

They're so late to the table.... Hero Labs: for a flat $20 fee that gets you all the content WotC has produced to build as many characters as you want with.

Not quite. It's $35 for a new user, or $25 for a current user, and that gets you the basic rules plus SRD. From there, you can get the community content, which may be close enough to official (if identical to official, WotC may request they pull it, like they did when my Planescape conversions got pulled from the DMs Guild). Either way, HeroLab doesn't have the license to get any official content beyond the SRD.

[War_lord]

Yeah, this is pretty much nonsense. I'm a Roll20 person, that's what I do my gaming through. I own all the core books except SCAG along with CoS and I've also forked out full price for MM, Volo's and CoS digitally. Now I didn't mind paying for those three twice, because it plugs into Roll20 in a way that saves me time and makes my game look super professional. I don't feel I need a character builder, because 5e character creation is a painless process, and NPC creation uses different rules. I also pay the (optional) Roll20 subscription for enhanced features.

Beyond would cost me just as much, if not more then Roll20, with a fraction of the features. They're 5 years behind the curve with this thing. The only real trump card they seem to have is the Homebrew database, and that's weaksauce. There's plenty of free homebrew out there, and any uncurated database is going to have a serious Sturgeon's law problem at best, just look at D&D wiki's reputation.

[McNinja]

Looks like they've expanded on how their subscriptions work:
http://www.dndbeyond.com/full-subscription-details-for-d-d-beyond

Associated thread:
http://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/news-announcements/5772-full-subscription-details-for-d-d-beyond

It seems there was some confusion in their forums on how the subs worked, so they decided to expand on it. Still disappointingly adequate.

Also, the Product Lead for DDB has outright said that they can't offer purely sub-based access. Not that they won't, or don't want do, but they can't. I don't know how to take that, because it seems... wrong. I'm sure they have some reason, but it's not clear to anyone not directly involved with their pricing.

[Gwalchavad]

Also, the Product Lead for DDB has outright said that they can't offer purely sub-based access. Not that they won't, or don't want do, but they can't. I don't know how to take that, because it seems... wrong. I'm sure they have some reason, but it's not clear to anyone not directly involved with their pricing.

It's probably because DDB is just licensing the content from Wizards and Wizards (or even more likely Hasbro) won't let them. DDB isn't a Wizards-run project, it's being published by an outside developer (Curse) who managed to make a pitch that WotC/Hasbro liked. Wizards has been throwing more marketing money at it and assoiciating their name with it more than they have for things like their partnerships with FantasyGrounds and Roll20, but at the end of the day, it's pretty much the same type of deal as those.

[Kane0]

Hahahahaha

No. I'm happy with what I've got now. Thanks for the beta though!

[Susano-wo]

This is insane to me, but then again, I haven't looked at Paizos pricing of digital content either. But ****! $2 for a spell? but I can get the PHB spells for $5? why not just eliminate individual spell buying?

Can someone tell me what compendium is in this context? like the PHB compendium content is only $20 vs the ludicrous $30 they want for the whole thing. whats missing in compendium?

[Gwalchavad]

Can someone tell me what compendium is in this context? like the PHB compendium content is only $20 vs the ludicrous $30 they want for the whole thing. whats missing in compendium?

The ability to use that content in the digital tools like the character builder and spell/item/monster creators.

[Susano-wo]

The ability to use that content in the digital tools like the character builder and spell/item/monster creators.

Ah, so they want to charge me $10 for every book I want to actually use in their application. wooooow:smallsigh: (thanks for explaining that:smallsmile:)

[Ugganaut]

Hard pass. $30 per book I already own. Welcome to Nopeville.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Maybe they're all still living back in the eighties when online-anything was expensive and fantasy gamers took what they could get and were grateful for it.

I've got news for you, there was no "online" in the eighties.

[Mortheim]

So, to use others homebrew content i will pay to WotC? Well...

And those prices are killing me. Paying for hardbacks was pretty harsh (cause i live in poor region), but now i need to buy them again.

[Anonymouswizard]

There's plenty of free homebrew out there, and any uncurated database is going to have a serious Sturgeon's law problem at best, just look at D&D wiki's reputation.

Plus looking at this forum's reaction, I suspect most competent homebrewers won't bother with D&DB. I mean, of they want it officialish not like DMsGuild is going away, if I'm not going to use this why should I add my homebrew?

[Ruebin Rybnik]

Ok so biggest thing that jumps out to me is that Wizards doesn't know basic math. If you add up all the e source books full prices you get $299.87, %15 off would come out to $254.89 not $279.99. So already i don't agree with any of their pricing.

Ok so if you can get past their math problems, then you have to deal with them slamming the door on current customers. If i purchased the hard copy of the book and can show proof, why are you going to make me pay full price again. How about if i can show proof of purchase why not give me a reduced cost. Say $9.99 for the PHB. This way you're still making money and appealing to current customers. Actually they would probably make more money as there would be 5 times more current customers purchasing the e sources.


Lastly i can somewhat understand them not wanting to allow PDF download. So as a compromise why not have a offline version of DNDB that you can download to x number of laptops/mobile devices with all you source material you have purchased. This way you can use it offline with out too much worry of mass duplication.

Their only saving grace is the feature where the GM with the master subscription can share content with their players. But that still requires a big purchase on the GM's part.

[Anonymouswizard]

The sad thing is, many people who'd love to pay for a pdf of the book's can't, and PDFs can be incredibly easy to browse and search. I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't want the rules in some sort of wiki, just a legal PDF with bookmarks and a search bar. Releasing one wouldn't increase piracy, people who want to pursue a pdf can (and likely have been able to since about two hours after launch).

While no pdf does make sense in a 'drive people to our latest project' theme, it's just giving me no reason to change my 'until there's a pdf' boycott of D&D. I have the PhB, I'm unlikely to run 5e, so I have no reason to buy their books.

EDIT: my reading is that a GM can share anybody's content, as long as they're in the campaign.

[Beelzebubba]

Their only saving grace is the feature where the GM with the master subscription can share content with their players. But that still requires a big purchase on the GM's part.

"Hey everyone, want to chip in equally on this? It's much cheaper divided by five."

"Ok"
"Sure"
"Yeah"
"No problem"

[DanyBallon]

Ok so if you can get past their math problems, then you have to deal with them slamming the door on current customers. If i purchased the hard copy of the book and can show proof, why are you going to make me pay full price again. How about if i can show proof of purchase why not give me a reduced cost. Say $9.99 for the PHB. This way you're still making money and appealing to current customers. Actually they would probably make more money as there would be 5 times more current customers purchasing the e sources.


Lastly i can somewhat understand them not wanting to allow PDF download. So as a compromise why not have a offline version of DNDB that you can download to x number of laptops/mobile devices with all you source material you have purchased. This way you can use it offline with out too much worry of mass duplication.

Their only saving grace is the feature where the GM with the master subscription can share content with their players. But that still requires a big purchase on the GM's part.

To be fair, if you put yourself in WotC shoes, how would you make sure that the person that request a discount for owning the physical copy isn't cheating you? Picture of the book with bar code? can easily done in a retail store. Picture of you with the book in your hand? Can be done in a store or a single copy of the book can be used for many person. Picture of the store receipt with the book? Could be a better solution, but honestly do you still have the proof of purchase of all your books? and still it can be switch around between people, unless WotC thoroughly investigate every picture sent so that there's no proof of purchase that are use more than once, which would be quite expensive to implement.

The best way would be that in every new purchase there is a unique redeem code that could be used only once, but that won't let owner of previously released book any mean for a discount.

[Pex]

"Hey everyone, want to chip in equally on this? It's much cheaper divided by five."

"Ok"
"Sure"
"Yeah"
"No problem"

"My wife had the baby. I can't DM anymore, sorry."

"I got a new job with a new schedule. I can't play."

"You're being unfair. I quit and am not paying the subscriptions anymore."

[Anonymouswizard]

To be fair, if you put yourself in WotC shoes, how would you make sure that the person that request a discount for owning the physical copy isn't cheating you? Picture of the book with bar code? can easily done in a retail store. Picture of you with the book in your hand? Can be done in a store or a single copy of the book can be used for many person. Picture of the store receipt with the book? Could be a better solution, but honestly do you still have the proof of purchase of all your books? and still it can be switch around between people, unless WotC thoroughly investigate every picture sent so that there's no proof of purchase that are use more than once, which would be quite expensive to implement.

The best way would be that in every new purchase there is a unique redeem code that could be used only once, but that won't let owner of previously released book any mean for a discount.

I mean, I'd offer a steeper discount initially, like $10-15 (the standard price of a digital book), so people who already have the book don't have to shell out another $30 (if you have a physical copy and roll20 copy you've already dropped $100 on each corebook, so maybe $300 in total, and now you have to pay another $30 to use it on D&DB), I don't begrudge the timescale they have here only the actual price drop. I'd then do some sort of Bits and Mortar* style scheme, where buying a digital copy of the rules is $30, but if you buy a physical copy you get a code to buy a digital copy for less or potentially free.

People with physical books aren't adverse to dropping $10-15 on a pdf copy of the rules, sure we might grumble about how we wish they used Bits and Mortar so we'd get them for free, but we'll still stump up the cash for the convenience. It's just the pricing that's annoying.

$20 is about the limit on what I'll pay for a nice searchable pdf I can carry around with me (ideally with layers so I can turn off the background), not some wiki-thing that's annoying to navigate and has a bunch of annoying visuals. I 100% understand the 'subscription or ads' model, it makes perfect sense, it's all the other unnecessary visuals that annoy me. Just give me a pdf that I can read in a pdf viewer, it'll be so much nicer.

* Which frankly is a great name for the 'free pdf with physical purchases' scheme, which makes me like Bits and Mortar all the more. Actually do have some free pdfs from it.

[Lombra]

By the look of things it seems like the target are the players who don't already own the books. It's pricey but less than buying the actual books. I don't understand the monthly subscription fee tho.

[Anonymouswizard]

By the look of things it seems like the target are the players who don't already own the books. It's pricey but less than buying the actual books. I don't understand the monthly subscription fee tho.

For the basic level it removes some restrictions and stops you from seeing ads. Either you let WotC (or Curse, the guys that make this) make ad revenue from the parts you haven't paid for, or you pay them a fee to use it. Because there are costs for running this (including server maintenance and likely continued development).

For the 'target players that don't own the books', maybe but it's not the vibe I'm getting. I'm getting a 'put money towards this because it's easier to character create' vibe. Not to say that you're wrong, but it feels a lot more like 'pay again for content you already own'.

Then again I think very different to WotC, I'd certainly have put out pdfs by now, and potentially done some sort of 'free/PWYW/$1 PhB pdf sale' as a promotion. It's probably obvious why I'm not working on 5e for Hasbro/WotC, half my ideas would likely help and the other half would lose too much money (that and really not being the right age or in the right profession).

[DanyBallon]

I mean, I'd offer a steeper discount initially, like $10-15 (the standard price of a digital book), so people who already have the book don't have to shell out another $30 (if you have a physical copy and roll20 copy you've already dropped $100 on each corebook, so maybe $300 in total, and now you have to pay another $30 to use it on D&DB), I don't begrudge the timescale they have here only the actual price drop. I'd then do some sort of Bits and Mortar* style scheme, where buying a digital copy of the rules is $30, but if you buy a physical copy you get a code to buy a digital copy for less or potentially free.

People with physical books aren't adverse to dropping $10-15 on a pdf copy of the rules, sure we might grumble about how we wish they used Bits and Mortar so we'd get them for free, but we'll still stump up the cash for the convenience. It's just the pricing that's annoying.

$20 is about the limit on what I'll pay for a nice searchable pdf I can carry around with me (ideally with layers so I can turn off the background), not some wiki-thing that's annoying to navigate and has a bunch of annoying visuals. I 100% understand the 'subscription or ads' model, it makes perfect sense, it's all the other unnecessary visuals that annoy me. Just give me a pdf that I can read in a pdf viewer, it'll be so much nicer.

* Which frankly is a great name for the 'free pdf with physical purchases' scheme, which makes me like Bits and Mortar all the more. Actually do have some free pdfs from it.

Then you're definitely not the target audience, D&D beyond is not a pdf. From what I understand (I haven't tried it yet), it's an integrate database that let you as a player and/or a DM have access to your owned material, and homebrew, on a digital device. As for you spending money on roll20 books, it's sad to say but they don't really care as the company behind D&D Beyond is not related to roll20 and is in part in competition with them. They would prefer that you spend that 30$ on their product instead of on the competition.

As for myself, I'm not the target audience either as I like to own physical copies of books I buy and music albums as well. Actually I'm considering buying a second PHB just to have at leave one copy up to date with the errata.

[Lombra]

Beyond can find it's spot in the local game store that wants to host games, with a master tier suscription and all the content bought by the shop, anyone can go there and play with the digital sourcebooks on their devices. It will be more comfortable and economic for the shop to keep everything digital, and it will be more comfortable for the players that don't have to constantly look through a physical PHB.

I think that the general consensus that came up here saying that it is bad happened because none of us are the target of the product. Most of us have physical books or are in a group where the books are shared, so there's no need to pay for them again in digital version.

[Easy_Lee]

Beyond can find it's spot in the local game store that wants to host games, with a master tier suscription and all the content bought by the shop, anyone can go there and play with the digital sourcebooks on their devices. It will be more comfortable and economic for the shop to keep everything digital, and it will be more comfortable for the players that don't have to constantly look through a physical PHB.

I think that the general consensus that came up here saying that it is bad happened because none of us are the target of the product. Most of us have physical books or are in a group where the books are shared, so there's no need to pay for them again in digital version.

If everything is digital, then what would the shop sell?

Regarding your second point, 5e has been out long enough that most of the people who want to play already have a PHB in some form. If Beyond had launched with 5e, then it wouldn't be as bad.

But subscriptions, ads, and paying multiple times are pretty bad.

[Lombra]

If everything is digital, then what would the shop sell?

Regarding your second point, 5e has been out long enough that most of the people who want to play already have a PHB in some form. If Beyond had launched with 5e, then it wouldn't be as bad.

But subscriptions, ads, and paying multiple times are pretty bad.

The intent would be that the shop sells the sessions that you play there. New players keep coming so the fact that the books have been out for so long isn't an issue for what I believe to be the target to be(casual/new groups).

I can envision a shop with tablets connected to Beyond so that players won't even need to make accounts to use the service there, just pay whatever the shop feels right in order to play.

[Anonymouswizard]

Then you're definitely not the target audience, D&D beyond is not a pdf. From what I understand (I haven't tried it yet), it's an integrate database that let you as a player and/or a DM have access to your owned material, and homebrew, on a digital device.

*grumble* which a pdf does just as well. Heck, even as a database I find it incredibly frustrating to browse, 1/10 would consider setting fire to.


As for you spending money on roll20 books, it's sad to say but they don't really care as the company behind D&D Beyond is not related to roll20 and is in part in competition with them. They would prefer that you spend that 30$ on their product instead of on the competition.

Well sure, and it actually makes sense to buy some product on Roll20 as you're getting a benefit on the site. I don't like how expensive the stuff is on Roll20, but it's at least giving more functionality to the site. While that's true here, they're pushing the compendium more than the character builder in my experience, and the compendium is just blargh :smallyuk:


As for myself, I'm not the target audience either as I like to own physical copies of books I buy and music albums as well. Actually I'm considering buying a second PHB just to have at leave one copy up to date with the errata.

I'm fairly certain we are the target audience. The 'buy the races and classes you want' heavily implies they expect those who only play certain classes and races to just purchase those, which implies they expect people who know the rules to buy stuff, which implies we are intended customers (even if not the primary, which I highly doubt).

[Easy_Lee]

The intent would be that the shop sells the sessions that you play there. New players keep coming so the fact that the books have been out for so long isn't an issue for what I believe to be the target to be(casual/new groups).

I can envision a shop with tablets connected to Beyond so that players won't even need to make accounts to use the service there, just pay whatever the shop feels right in order to play.

So what's stopping players from just meeting at each other's houses? And what's stopping competing shops from opening up coffee bars or selling food so they don't have to charge people to play? I don't think that model will work simply due to the nature of D&D. Besides the fact that tablets are expensive and people's hands are grimey and gross.

[Lombra]

So what's stopping players from just meeting at each other's houses? And what's stopping competing shops from opening up coffee bars or selling food so they don't have to charge people to play? I don't think that model will work simply due to the nature of D&D. Besides the fact that tablets are expensive and people's hands are grimey and gross.

Those who will have the opportunity will play at each others houses, what's the point of the question? It's a service aimed at new, casual, or people that just want to try out the game because they just heard of it with some experienced people (the DM will be provided by the shop in my hypothesis).

I have no degree of competence in economy studies but I believe that inter-shop competitivity is beyond (pun not intended) the point of the discussion. Every shop that wants to use this system will have its own way of dealing with customers and other shops to stay competitive.

Beyond looks good to me for this kind of initiative because it allows the promoters of such initiative to handle everything digitally and at a smaller price than if the owner were to buy the actual books. The income will be from the players intreasted that will pay to play and will visit the shop (having customers that don't buy off the shelf is better than not having customers at all)

[Easy_Lee]

One app that was released several years late isn't going to change anyone's business model. Furthermore, going digital removes the need to have a shop at all if WotC really wants to push this.

Fortunately, d&d represents a small portion of actual game shop sales. I doubt most will notice.

[Lombra]

One app that was released several years late isn't going to change anyone's business model. Furthermore, going digital removes the need to have a shop at all if WotC really wants to push this.

Fortunately, d&d represents a small portion of actual game shop sales. I doubt most will notice.

My idea is one way to use the app, I'm not saying that it is how it is intended to be used.

I'm saying that large groups that want to provide D&D sessions as a service may find this useful, generally speaking. 5th edition is pretty good at attracting new players, so I don't see it as a useless application of Beyond.

Again, I don't want to discuss marketing models, it's just an example off the top of my head, because I want to find uses to this, since it won't be of any use to me.

[Anonymouswizard]

It's a service aimed at new, casual, or people that just want to try out the game because they just heard of it with some experienced people

[citation needed]

Seriously, provide ACTUAL evidence that this isn't aimed at everyone who's interested in D&D, rather than telling me it's just aimed at new people. Because I've yet to see it, even WotC seems to talk as if it's something for everyone.

EDIT: I'll agree that Lombra's idea is a possible way to use it. I highly suspect it's one WotC either didn't think of, or didn't consider significant.

(I will, however, put forward a theory that they see people running multiple events/con games a year using it to make a lot of pregenerated characters, which I can see the logic behind)

[Lombra]

[citation needed]

Seriously, provide ACTUAL evidence that this isn't aimed at everyone who's interested in D&D, rather than telling me it's just aimed at new people. Because I've yet to see it, even WotC seems to talk as if it's something for everyone.

(I will, however, put forward a theory that they see people running multiple events/con games a year using it to make a lot of pregenerated characters, which I can see the logic behind)

I was referring to my idea of "shop that sells comic books and D&D sessions with "professional" DMs" not to the D&D Beyond app in what you cited, sorry if it wasn't clear.

Big events can make use of this to become more organized and simple too, but I can see both pros and cons to that.

Edit: ultimately, i want to believe that this is not aimed at every D&D next player in the world, because it clearly doesn't appeal to every D&D next player in the world, me in primis. And since I have a bit of faith and hope towards the people at Curse that planned this thing, I choose that I am not their target, rather than them screwing up that badly, until something official will be stated on this argument.
TL;DR: I give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Anonymouswizard]

I was referring to my idea of "shop that sells comic books and D&D sessions with "professional" DMs" not to the D&D Beyond app in what you cited, sorry if it wasn't clear.

Okay, that makes sense.


Edit: ultimately, i want to believe that this is not aimed at every D&D next player in the world, because it clearly doesn't appeal to every D&D next player in the world, me in primis. And since I have a bit of faith and hope towards the people at Curse that planned this thing, I choose that I am not their target, rather than them screwing up that badly, until something official will be stated on this argument.
TL;DR: I give them the benefit of the doubt.

I've given up expecting WotC to have much sense in this area, the lack of an official pdf two-three years down the line was what killed it. I'm going to be looking at what's presented, rather than trying to be optimistic about what they could intend, and what's presented is that they want people to buy their rules a third time.

[Yagyujubei]

thats too bad i was actually pretty excited for this but **** those prices so hard

[DanyBallon]

*grumble* which a pdf does just as well. Heck, even as a database I find it incredibly frustrating to browse, 1/10 would consider setting fire to.



Well sure, and it actually makes sense to buy some product on Roll20 as you're getting a benefit on the site. I don't like how expensive the stuff is on Roll20, but it's at least giving more functionality to the site. While that's true here, they're pushing the compendium more than the character builder in my experience, and the compendium is just blargh :smallyuk:



I'm fairly certain we are the target audience. The 'buy the races and classes you want' heavily implies they expect those who only play certain classes and races to just purchase those, which implies they expect people who know the rules to buy stuff, which implies we are intended customers (even if not the primary, which I highly doubt).

Book PDF have a major drawback, that if you are looking for all races, or all classes available, you can't do so through a single file. A database like D&D Beyond, can let you search through all the books you have at once. It's not a replacement to a digital version of the book, but something with a different use in mind.

And I'm still not convinced that long time player are the target audience. Having the possibility to buy a single class or race can be great for a casual player that only play elves, or play fighters/ranger and paladin. This way he don't need to buy the full rulebook, only the package that he find useful. Is it really worth it? I doubt so, but I've so many times be proven wrong by popularity of micro-transaction that I'm not a good reference here :smallbiggrin:

[Waterdeep Merch]

Book PDF have a major drawback, that if you are looking for all races, or all classes available, you can't do so through a single file. A database like D&D Beyond, can let you search through all the books you have at once. It's not a replacement to a digital version of the book, but something with a different use in mind.

And I'm still not convinced that long time player are the target audience. Having the possibility to buy a single class or race can be great for a casual player that only play elves, or play fighters/ranger and paladin. This way he don't need to buy the full rulebook, only the package that he find useful. Is it really worth it? I doubt so, but I've so many times be proven wrong by popularity of micro-transaction that I'm not a good reference here :smallbiggrin:
I've used PDF's a lot in the past for convenience or because I could get them cheaply, and I totally understand and respect people that like them. I prefer books because I like books, plain and simple, and have a memory good enough to remember about what page I saw a particular rule on for when it's important.

But I agree, a database is a wholly different creature and one that would be worth paying for. Just not the kind of price they're asking for here.

I still might get some use out of the freebie rules compendium. Shame the character creator doesn't do the ONLY THING I wanted it to- create printable character sheets, a kind of bizarre oversight. I dislike when my players use digital character sheets at my table because I've had instances where they've been caught cheating. Too easy when I'd have to physically grab their phone/tablet to check their stats.

[JAL_1138]

Way to price yourselves out of sales, guys. No way am I paying that much plus a subscription for books I already own, and I strongly suspect much of the market will react similarly. I also suspect piracy of pdf versions will increase significantly.

Just drop affordable pdfs on DMsguild, WotC. Seriously. They'll make up more in volume than this will through price, AND cut piracy since people will have a legal way to get the stuff for a reasonable price.

[MeeposFire]

I've got news for you, there was no "online" in the eighties.

I have news for you but my family had access to the internet using Prodigy in the 1980s and heck while it is just after the 80s the original Neverwinter Nights game was from 1991 and there were things that were used before that to play online before that.

[Gwalchavad]

I still might get some use out of the freebie rules compendium. Shame the character creator doesn't do the ONLY THING I wanted it to- create printable character sheets, a kind of bizarre oversight. I dislike when my players use digital character sheets at my table because I've had instances where they've been caught cheating. Too easy when I'd have to physically grab their phone/tablet to check their stats.

You can print up character sheets as of the update on 8/4. It's... not entirely the best right now. Navigating to the printable pdf is unintuitive and requires going into the editor you use to create the character or selecting "export sheet" from a dropdown next to the character name. The way the printable sheets list features and traits needs a *lot* of work - at the moment they list unnecessary info like "hit points" and "proficiencies" (and just that, the actual hit points and proficiencies show up at the expected places on the sheet) while leaving out necessary info for features such as fighting style (they don't show you what type of fighting style) or pact boon (they don't list what pact boon you selected). It's beta still, so hopefully they smooth it out by the actual release.

[Waterdeep Merch]

You can print up character sheets as of the update on 8/4. It's... not entirely the best right now. Navigating to the printable pdf is unintuitive and requires going into the editor you use to create the character or selecting "export sheet" from a dropdown next to the character name. The way the printable sheets list features and traits needs a *lot* of work - at the moment they list unnecessary info like "hit points" and "proficiencies" (and just that, the actual hit points and proficiencies show up at the expected places on the sheet) while leaving out necessary info for features such as fighting style (they don't show you what type of fighting style) or pact boon (they don't list what pact boon you selected). It's beta still, so hopefully they smooth it out by the actual release.
Ahh, there it is. I thought that was a strange thing to be missing. It really should be somewhere easier to find. There's some hope for it yet.

Still won't be dropping any money here.

[obryn]

I have news for you but my family had access to the internet using Prodigy in the 1980s and heck while it is just after the 80s the original Neverwinter Nights game was from 1991 and there were things that were used before that to play online before that.
Neverwinter Nights was released in 2002. :smallsmile:

As for online gaming in the 80's - there were MUDs and the like that started back in the 80's. Text-based stuff was the limit back then. You also had usenet groups, too. And yeah, I am sure there was some stuff on CompuServ and Prodigy and the like, but mostly I stuck to local dial-up BBSes, myself.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Neverwinter Nights was released in 2002. :smallsmile:
No, he's right. You're thinking of the third person RPG released by Bioware. He's talking about (debatably) the world's first MMO, which was actually a major selling point for AOL back in the day.

[Pex]

I have news for you but my family had access to the internet using Prodigy in the 1980s and heck while it is just after the 80s the original Neverwinter Nights game was from 1991 and there were things that were used before that to play online before that.


Neverwinter Nights was released in 2002. :smallsmile:

As for online gaming in the 80's - there were MUDs and the like that started back in the 80's. Text-based stuff was the limit back then. You also had usenet groups, too. And yeah, I am sure there was some stuff on CompuServ and Prodigy and the like, but mostly I stuck to local dial-up BBSes, myself.

Please don't remind me how old I am.

[MeeposFire]

Neverwinter Nights was released in 2002. :smallsmile:

As for online gaming in the 80's - there were MUDs and the like that started back in the 80's. Text-based stuff was the limit back then. You also had usenet groups, too. And yeah, I am sure there was some stuff on CompuServ and Prodigy and the like, but mostly I stuck to local dial-up BBSes, myself.

I said "original" Neverwinter Nights the one in 2002 is a separate game.

[Bohandas]

I'm not giving WotC any money until they're dragged into the 21st century, kicking and screaming if necessary. So no pdf for me.

You're just starting with this now. I've been blackballing Hasbro in general for several years.

[Anonymouswizard]

You're just starting with this now. I've been blackballing Hasbro in general for several years.

The only thing I've bought from Hasbro in the last five or six years has been one (1) 5e Player's Handbook, because it was the new edition, I'd heard it was all new and improved, people seemed to like it, and I thought I could chance it.

I got it, tried to run a game with the free monsters, and realised I didn't like running it. Fun to play though.

But yeah, I've actually been completely boycotting Hasbro completely for about the last two years, mostly for the no pdf ********. But I didn't feel like a reason for boycotting WotC was really there until three years ago, when I realised how useful pdfs are. They only thing they produce I'm actually interested in is D&D, so it's not too hard.

[Bohandas]

I've been boycotting them ever since their intrusive meddling caused MLPFIM to jump the shark in season 3, which was the straw that broke the camel's back after high prices, shutting down Dragon Magazine, deleting most of my favorite threads from their forum during one of it's unnecessary redesigns, and the half-baked 4e D&D alignment system

[Beelzebubba]

"My wife had the baby. I can't DM anymore, sorry."

"I got a new job with a new schedule. I can't play."

"You're being unfair. I quit and am not paying the subscriptions anymore."


So what? I can think of a no-brainer real-world answer to every one of these that is no drama.

Make an actual point.

[Pex]

So what? I can think of a no-brainer real-world answer to every one of these that is no drama.

Make an actual point.

The point being my point earlier where real life often interferes such that asking everyone to chip in to pay off the website to lessen the expense will lead to complications when one or more players have to leave the group, including the DM. It is not so simple as you conjectured.

[lperkins2]

I said "original" Neverwinter Nights the one in 2002 is a separate game.

The original actually looks kinda interesting, mostly for its influence on later MMORPGs. As for 'internet', the first always-on networks were alive by the end of the '70s, and some of the major networks came alive in the early '80s (FidoNet).

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Ha, why does the D&D website want me to create a Twitch account not a D&D account?

Are these the same WOTC / Hasbro guys who couldn't make money off Axis & Allies War at Sea yet Shapeways can?

There is something about Legacy and Standardization which has nothing to do with marketing or business skills.

[McNinja]

Ha, why does the D&D website want me to create a Twitch account not a D&D account?

Are these the same WOTC / Hasbro guys who couldn't make money off Axis & Allies War at Sea yet Shapeways can?

There is something about Legacy and Standardization which has nothing to do with marketing or business skills.The site/tool is made by Curse, which was bought by Twitch.tv a couple years ago, and twitch is owned by Amazon. WotC only licensed their IP to Curse, and presumably had a say in their (and roll20, and Fantasy Grounds) pricing, since FG is lowering their pricing to match DDB and R20.

From a backend standpoint, it's probably easier to use Twitch's login system than create their own from scratch.

[BW022]

Am I the only one who doesn't actually think it is a terribly good character generator?

Most other systems start with a character sheet, fill it out, and then have popups for descriptions. This one is pages of text and scrolling just to select your race... then pages of text and scrolling for your race, etc. Nor does it seem that great for new players... what XP system are we using? How are they going to know? I would say this would turn off most players.

Nor do I think any new player would pay for this... simply as they don't know what they need to buy? Until they have an actual game to play in... with an actual DM telling them the setting, races, etc. how are they going to know what to buy? Even experienced games find the pricing baffling and they know what SRD vs. PHB is?

[Anonymouswizard]

Am I the only one who doesn't actually think it is a terribly good character generator?

Nope. Compared to Herolab, which doesn't make me wade through a page of text before each option, it's downright horrible. Also Herolab is lovely, making it easy to change selections when I'm still in character creation and keeping all the fluff text out of the mechanical side.


Most other systems start with a character sheet, fill it out, and then have popups for descriptions. This one is pages of text and scrolling just to select your race... then pages of text and scrolling for your race, etc. Nor does it seem that great for new players... what XP system are we using? How are they going to know? I would say this would turn off most players.

I can see it being useful for new players, if it had a 'basic rules only' option. Four races, four classes, no feats, and the pages of words would still be useful. Stuff like 'what XP system are we using' should either default to the standard and allow updating later, or give an explicit 'I don't know' option.

It's still rubbish compared to Herolab, where I can make a beginning Pathfinder or Fate character without a ton of scrolling.


Nor do I think any new player would pay for this... simply as they don't know what they need to buy? Until they have an actual game to play in... with an actual DM telling them the setting, races, etc. how are they going to know what to buy? Even experienced games find the pricing baffling and they know what SRD vs. PHB is?

Yeah, but WotC has solved the 'not knowing what to buy' problem by allowing you to access free content for free (so Basic Rules + SRD + Elemental Evil Player's Guide). A new player doesn't have to pay for anything, but it would be confusing if you haven't read through both the PhB and the SRD to know the difference, so it's not the best solution in the world, but if you want to draw in new players and have them pay for it free content might work.

New players are also less likely to find the $30 price baffling, I mean thinking about it roleplaying games are the only time I expect to see a 66%-75% discount on digital books, otherwise I'm generally willing to get a 10% discount (but everything else is either a novel, which are relatively cheap anyway, or a textbook where I very much want physical*). Heck, the most I'm willing to pay for a pdf book is about $20, or about two fifths want it likely is printed, although printing is likely more expensive than for a novel (although less than for a textbook). For a new player, who likely doesn't know that once you get past the corebook almost nobody charges $30 for a digital book (and even then it's rather rare) it probably seems reasonable, sure it's not a physical thing but it's easier to use and they can just be online while using it.

I admit 'offline usability' is a big thing for me because I've previously lived places with rubbish internet or WiFi, but a pdf doesn't need a special phone app to work offline.

* I find it easier to reference.