Have you been utterly bewildered by a new system, despite understanding it?

[SangoProduction]

So, I've played D&D and its siblings for quite a number of years, decades even...mostly because that's what those around me are willing to play. But with the advent of internet gaming, that's much less of a concern. However small, if there's an established game system, there's no doubt a couple games looking for players. That's so amazing.

Anyway, I found Fate recently, and it looks extremely elegant. Of course, this is also coming from the guy who likes to play those characters who are just "out there," such as a gelatinous cube that can shapeshift to a humanoid form, and multiclassed 20 ways to level 4. Thus, I always liked the more freeform systems like BESM and GURPS, since you weren't given a bundle of stuff and told that was your character - you were given options to pick from instead.

D&D (3.5) sits quite well on the former side of the fence, and 4.0 being even further. BESM goes quite to the latter. But hot dawg, Fate (accelerated) is so far on the latter side it's like trying to build a character from raw star stuff. I just sit there going..."What do I even do?", even though it's not complicated in the least ...Which is apparently how my friends felt when I told them about GURPS. I finally understand.

You, just as with all the free-form RPG systems, definitely need a character concept before starting "building" your character, unlike the more structured ones where a character can logically emerge from a build. But I've never seen a system as free form as Fate, which gives no attempt for inspiring characters. It's just so strange, and was my first experience in actually having to straight up copy characters from other media because there were no mechanics to ground the concept. (I think it's called option paralysis or something.)

Have any of you experienced something like this? Perhaps not with this particular system, but the basic concept of utter bewilderment at a new system?

[Fouredged Sword]

Nobilis man. Nobilis is like taking a hit of LSD and tripping bawls. Fun though, but crazy. I literally made a character with the ability to be in any scene the DM narrated. He was the living incarnation of the news and he existed wherever the story did. Unless you took active steps to keep him out he was ALWAYS THERE as soon as the story happened.

It helps that this is a system that things are ranked 1-5 during character creation and a nuke registers somewhere around a high zero. You defeat your opponents by eroding at the anchors of what they are rather than attempting to stab them or anything like that (though that works too, if you are strong enough)

[the_david]

I had some roleplayers stare at me in disbelief when I mentioned that I started my RPG addiction by playing a classless system. They had never heard of such a thing even though they should be somewhat experienced, considering we were playing a high level D&D game. (Level 18-ish.)

[Menzath]

That was my initial impression of the hero system as well. But after reading through it a few times I realized it was almost the opposite in that it was highly structured, and required the ability to count fractions and do percentages just for character creation.

But creating a PC still requires imagination or you'll stare at.the sheet like a dead fish.

I decided to tell a game(that sadly fell apart) and was a little sad at most of the players lack of imagination. Was still fun though.

[inuyasha]

Just curious, have you seen BESMd20? It's kinda weird, but I really like it, with a weird blend of freeform character generation (like GURPS, or presumably the normal BESM system) and the D20 framework.

EDIT: And if you are more interested in the system, I actually just homebrewed a class for it a while ago, but never posted it since I figured not very many people probably play it.

[khadgar567]

well i know rping already but dresden files( fate) made me ask some one to help me to build character

[SangoProduction]

Just curious, have you seen BESMd20? It's kinda weird, but I really like it, with a weird blend of freeform character generation (like GURPS, or presumably the normal BESM system) and the D20 framework.

EDIT: And if you are more interested in the system, I actually just homebrewed a class for it a while ago, but never posted it since I figured not very many people probably play it.

Yeah. BESM d20 was actually a cool way to try and adapt BESM to be more familiar. They really could have made it more obvious that the "class features" or whatever just meant "go to the powers section, and increase your level in that power by 1" or something the other. If they did that better, maybe gave it a more D&D-ized "class features" section of text for the classes which said that, maybe people could have caught on.

[ryu]

I'm going to get the obligatory dark side point for everyone in the thread out of the way by mentioning FATAL. I'm sorry everyone. It was necessary. For those of you who don't know I wouldn't recommend googling. Save your sanity. Fly you fools.

[Pugwampy]

4th edition rules.....YIPES !!!!

[SangoProduction]

4th edition rules.....YIPES !!!!

What about it?

[Pugwampy]

What about it?

No comment

[Buufreak]

No comment

I will comment!

Skill challenges, aka "combat against a skill with a skill!" was the worst possible thing. It essentially boiled down to needing (3,5,8) success before 3 failures, depending on the "difficulty," with arbitrary numbers thrown out for the sake of balancing against 4e's skill system of "ability mod+1/2 level+other" where other can be any number of +2s and +5s. So by level 20~ you could easily expect challenges asking for skill checks of 40, in rapid succession, for reasons of "lolz, story."

Then we have combat system, which is (aside from psionics) 2 at wills, 3 encounters, 3 dailies, a paragon encounter, a paragon daily, a paragon utility, an epic utility, and 7 level up utilities. You also have abilities that get swapped out as you level, somewhat like a 3.5 sorcerer can, because "simplicity." Now, on top of this, each (attack, power, spell, prayer, invocation, etc) had its own long list of description, effects, stipulations, what have you. In short, every class became a wizard. Fighter? You have a "punching" spell book. Cleric? "Prayer" spell book! Assassin? ... well, you get the idea.

Equipment got literally thousands of esoteric effects and abilities, and anything as simple as "+1 for fire" was right out the window, because an extra d6 was too OP! Weapons went up by +1 every 5 levels, and +6 become non epic, and by non epic, I mean you will get it by level 30, because that is the very hard and unmoving level cap, so nothing progresses passed it (though I seem to remember the wand of orcus could under the right circumstances reach +7).

Another thing about weapons: artifacts. They all had personality, and made demands from their user. Some was simply "use me!" while others were "stab your friend in the back at the most inappropriate moment" or the like. Then, as the item changed its friendliness score, or whatever the hell they called it, it would scrub all previous stats and abilities and replace them with others. So if keeping up with your own character and all the crap thrown into it wasn't hard enough, you get to keep track of this too.

Then all monsters leveled, with solid 1 to 1 on most stats, that as CR went up by 1, so did all attacks and defenses. Speaking of, Fort, Ref, and Will became solid numbers, comparable to 3.5 if you took a 10. So it now all comes down to the attacker, and each ability stated if it attacked against AC, F, R, or W.

There is so much more to the system beyond this, but I feel like I've made a solid point of "I understand the system, I only wish I didn't." I will still to this day defend the fluff, because there were books completely filled with it, and I generally enjoyed what it had to say. The numbers, though? Well, there is a very good reason some combats took an average of 6 hours, even when ran optimally.

[Psyren]

I don't think it's possible to really be bewildered at something I understand. If I get it, I'm not bewildered, but I may conclude that it's simply not for me. FATE is in that category.

There have been things I was bewildered by but eventually knuckled down and understood. Incarnum is in that category, and I'm slowly getting there on Spheres of Power.

[Fouredged Sword]

I don't think it's possible to really be bewildered at something I understand. If I get it, I'm not bewildered, but I may conclude that it's simply not for me. FATE is in that category.

There have been things I was bewildered by but eventually knuckled down and understood. Incarnum is in that category, and I'm slowly getting there on Spheres of Power.

When you gaze on it and understand HOW such a thing is, but for the life of you all you can ask is WHY such a thing exists.

[Ashtagon]

The rules from torg (sometimes called masterbook), a game from the early 90s. Amazing setting. Incomprehensible rules.

[GreatWyrmGold]

New Gods of Mankind is an excellent game which deserves more attention than it gets (which is part of why I'm mentioning it here), but I've had trouble figuring out how to run games with it. Though it might be in part because of all the PBP god-games I've played, which use structures and tropes that wouldn't work so well at the tabeletop.

[Psyren]

When you gaze on it and understand HOW such a thing is, but for the life of you all you can ask is WHY such a thing exists.

Ah. Honestly the only system I've felt that way about is FATAL, all the rest I can easily think of a why (i.e. they serve some sort of niche in a way other games don't).

[Uckleverry]

I will comment

I wish you'd also understand it. :(

Skill check DCs based on 'lolz'? Everyone has a spellbook? 6 h combats? Maybe it's been a while and your memory's playing a trick on you?

[Florian]

I don't think it's possible to really be bewildered at something I understand.

I´ve had some RPGs where I totally understood the rules, the underlying math was crystal clear, but I could not, ever, find out what the game itself was supposed to be an how to play it. Artesia, Nephilim or Undying are examples for that.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Speaking of, Fort, Ref, and Will became solid numbers, comparable to 3.5 if you took a 10. So it now all comes down to the attacker, and each ability stated if it attacked against AC, F, R, or W.
This is one of the few changes in 4e that I kinda liked. It's a nice little touch of standardized mechanics, and gives players a greater sense of agency over their own actions, without changing the actual numbers meaningfully.



I wish you'd also understand it. :(

Skill check DCs based on 'lolz'? Everyone has a spellbook? 6 h combats? Maybe it's been a while and your memory's playing a trick on you?
I might take your reply seriously if you provided more than "You're wrong and must have forgotten," which is only slightly better than "You're stupid and wrong".

[Uckleverry]

I might take your reply seriously if you provided more than "You're wrong and must have forgotten," which is only slightly better than "You're stupid and wrong".

So when someone claims that in 3.5 clerics, sorcerers, wilders, duskblades, warblades, and totemists all have a spellbook, your reaction is to nod in agreement? (Only wizards have a spellbook in 4e btw.)

Do you really think the designers of 4e would assign skill check DCs just randomly, for 'lolz'? Maybe they're assigned from a different design perspective than 3.5 DCs...

[Buufreak]

So when someone claims that in 3.5 clerics, sorcerers, wilders, duskblades, warblades, and totemists all have a spellbook, your reaction is to nod in agreement? (Only wizards have a spellbook in 4e btw.)

Do you really think the designers of 4e would assign skill check DCs just randomly, for 'lolz'? Maybe they're assigned from a different design perspective than 3.5 DCs...

When I would print characters using the official builder available at wizards.com, no fleshed out character was less than 8 pages, with half of that being power cards printed on a 3x3 grid. Call it a spell pamphlet if you want, but I remember using enough paper and ink for a book and then some for all characters printed.

[Uckleverry]

When I would print characters using the official builder available at wizards.com, no fleshed out character was less than 8 pages, with half of that being power cards printed on a 3x3 grid. Call it a spell pamphlet if you want, but I remember using enough paper and ink for a book and then some for all characters printed.
Wait, because the character builder gave you detailed descriptions of all your abilities, you call it a spellbook? How does that make any sense? Only arcane characters cast 'spells' in the first place. Or is 'melee basic attack' a spell? Is a 3.5 fighter casting an at-will spell when they swing their sword? Lol.

[Buufreak]

Obviously you've never heard of a metaphor or a simile. I'm not going to explain this concept further than it already has been, because we've now spent more time on it than RnD did.

[Uckleverry]

You realize you can make similar cards for 3.5 classes too? For non-casters even? Doesn't make it a 'spell pamphlet'.

I think my memory comment was pretty apt in this case.

[Buufreak]

You realize you can make similar cards for 3.5 classes too? For non-casters even? Doesn't make it a 'spell pamphlet'.

I think my memory comment was pretty apt in this case.

Except how horribly moot an argument that is when discussing with someone with a photographic memory. ;)

[SimonMoon6]

The rules from torg (sometimes called masterbook), a game from the early 90s. Amazing setting. Incomprehensible rules.

I thought the rules for TORG were pretty straightforward, but then it was just a variation on the DC Heroes RPG by Mayfair in having a logarithmic scale for abilities. Now, it did have *problems* to be sure (the "glass ninja" problem for example: when rolling a die to see if you hit, how well you rolled also affects your damage, so that if someone is hard to hit, they will only be hit by a really good die roll which means massive damage, so any hit on a ninja will instantly kill that ninja).

The only part of TORG that I had major difficulties with was trying to figure out their ridiculously over-complicated procedure for creating a new spell... in a system where it is expected that you will be creating new spells all the time (or else be limited to just casting a handful of spells ever). I seem to recall some idea that one might "on the fly" create a spell during a round of combat when it was likely to take at least half an hour to work out the details of such a spell. I did eventually figure out the system enough to be able to create spells if I needed to, but I can't imagine anybody creating a spell in the middle of combat.

For me, the most complicated part of the "main" rules of TORG is how they discuss the "theory" behind why things work the way they do ("The Rule of One," "The Rule of Two," etc.)... despite then showing examples that contradict those underlying principles of the multiverse.