"Before they give you pre-frontol Lobotomy and I have to smother you with a pillow!"

[Blackdrop]

While I was brushing up on my Psionics I came across one power that seemed like an overly cheap way to kill someone.

Decerebrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/decerebrate.htm)

So that got me thinking, how many wizards remember to cast Contingency for lobotomies? :smallconfused:

[Reel On, Love]

While I was brushing up on my Psionics I came across one power that seemed like an overly cheap way to kill someone.

Decerebrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/decerebrate.htm)

So that got me thinking, how many wizards remember to cast Contingency for lobotomies? :smallconfused:

Not as many as remember to cast Spell Turning.

[Zeful]

I would like to point out that removing part of someone brain stem doesn't count as a labotomy, I think.

The best plan would be to hit a cleric with this, now there's no way to save him.

But that's not as cool as the psychic warrior power Dissipating Touch. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dissipatingTouch.htm) A 20th level you can deal 20d6 damage (that's what 70 damage on average? 120 at max), which is cool if you need a whole made in the simple dirt/stone wall. Not powerful but very usefull and cool

[Jack_Simth]

While I was brushing up on my Psionics I came across one power that seemed like an overly cheap way to kill someone.

Decerebrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/decerebrate.htm)

Overly cheap? It's a 7th level Fort Save or Lose. Okay, yeah, it's Teleportation, so it's difficult to become immune if you don't know it's coming (as opposed to how a Scarab of Protection to keep away all those nasty [Death] attacks).

Compare to, say, Flesh To Stone (Sor/Wiz 6).

Decerebrate:
Close range
7th level effect
Living targets only
Cured by 7th+ level effects.

Flesh to Stone:
Medim range
6th level effect
Fleshy (usually living, but not always) targets only
Cured by a 6th level level effect (Flesh to Stone).

They have similiar immunity profiles, both are fort saves, both allow the appropriate resistance type, both can be cured without the subject's death. But the Sor/Wiz version is lower-level.

It's an unexpected method of lose, but it's hardly cheap. Assuming a target that isn't particularly immune to either, Flesh to Stone is strictly superior (other than the lower spell level, which is useful in and of itself, as it means you can get more of them out there).



So that got me thinking, how many wizards remember to cast Contingency for lobotomies? :smallconfused:
Spell Turning will put the hurt on the Psion that tries it - and with the duration on Spell Turning, a higher-level Batman Wizard can keep it up basically continuously.


I would like to point out that removing part of someone brain stem doesn't count as a labotomy, I think.

The best plan would be to hit a cleric with this, now there's no way to save him.

Limited Wish, while pricy, is worth it to revive the Cleric... and it's a fairly appropriate 7th level effect available to the Wizard.


But that's not as cool as the psychic warrior power Dissipating Touch. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dissipatingTouch.htm) A 20th level you can deal 20d6 damage (that's what 70 damage on average? 120 at max), which is cool if you need a whole made in the simple dirt/stone wall. Not powerful but very usefull and cool
Your analysis of the ability is pretty accurate, yes.

[Zeful]

Hey I like that power, it allows you to pretend that you are Edward Aileric(I know i spelt it wrong) and clap your hands together to get rid of barriers.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Edward Aileric(I know i spelt it wrong)

Elric. Now you know. :smallwink:

Also, Jack, Spell Turning would not help in the slightest against a Decerebate power considering...y'know...it's a psionic power and not a spell...Unless your using psionic/magic transperancy or whatever it's called.

'Sides, it's not cheap. It's pretty damn funny.

[Reel On, Love]

Elric. Now you know. :smallwink:

Also, Jack, Spell Turning would not help in the slightest against a Decerebate power considering...y'know...it's a psionic power and not a spell...Unless your using psionic/magic transperancy or whatever it's called.

'Sides, it's not cheap. It's pretty damn funny.

Psionic/magic transparecy is the default. Without it, wizards and psions can mercilessly and casually slaughter each other.

[Tengu]

Jack_Simth said what I wanted to, so instead I'll state that this thread has an awesome title.

[Jack_Simth]

Elric. Now you know. :smallwink:

Also, Jack, Spell Turning would not help in the slightest against a Decerebate power considering...y'know...it's a psionic power and not a spell...Unless your using psionic/magic transperancy or whatever it's called.

Which is, incidentally, the default rule.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Which is, incidentally, the default rule.

Maybe for you. :smallbiggrin: I personally enjoy the thought of a psion teleporting away part of a wizards most valued organ. (And yes I consider the brain an organ in case it's not)





...Er...wait. Or did they change that from the first psionic's handbook where I remember the psionic/magic transperancy was the variant. (Or maybe I am truly deluded now and just imagaining that it was the variant there and not the default) Incidentally I think it's hoppiecock to have psionic/magic transperancy. (If you haven't noticed)

[tainsouvra]

...Er...wait. Or did they change that from the first psionic's handbook where I remember the psionic/magic transperancy was the variant. (Or maybe I am truly deluded now and just imagaining that it was the variant there and not the default) Incidentally I think it's hoppiecock to have psionic/magic transperancy. (If you haven't noticed) I believe transparency was the standard rule even in that horrible, horrible 3.0 version. I'd check, but that book is currently 60 miles away from me, and not by coincidence.

[Citizen Joe]

Dimensional anchor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm) might prevent it.

[TheLogman]

Psionics and Magic are the same thing are in fact the standard, even in the 3.0 version.

However, I object to calling the 3.0 version "Horrible, Horrible". What do you have against it?

The only problems I can see are the near-lack of distinction between types of Psions, and the near brokenness that followed, but that's like hating Wizards, cause they are easy to exploit for ultimate power, except its easier with Wizards, or Clerics, or Druids.

As for the Power, you have at least 1 day to save them, and at that level, if the Wizard isn't hit, he can tele them to a place where it can get fixed, and if the Wizard IS hit, then the Cleric/Psion can take care of it. Sure, you're a little weak, and it would be terrible if you were hit in Combat with it, but once again, at that point, Save vs. Lose spells/powers/incantations/weapons/stuff are a staple, and most Clerics and Wizards are prepared to either deal with it, or go to a place where said dealing can be done.

Edit: Although the Dimensional Anchor would be a creative solution, I don't think it is teleported out, just violently sliced out/disintegrated.

[tainsouvra]

However, I object to calling the 3.0 version "Horrible, Horrible". What do you have against it? It had significant balance issues in the printed version that were not in the version the author had submitted, and that's by far the biggest one. Editors/playtesters changed things to the point that even the author couldn't make some things work right--he ended up posting alternate rules on his website, and incorporated them into the new edition later. If even he couldn't make it work without houserules, that's pretty horrible in my mind.

As for a couple specific problems that I still remember even now...
* Powers that were made useless by their own displays...persistent distinctive sound/odor/slime on someone who is charmed, or following an invisible manifester, for the entire duration of the power? C'mon.
* Making prestige classes that were inferior at their main reason for existing to the base class they sprouted from--the printed 3.0 Metamind in particular was problematic, it supposedly gave up upper-level powers for more power points, but a 10 Psion / 10 Metamind had fewer PP than a 20 Psion.

[JackMage666]

I do like the Soul Knofe PrC in the Psionic's Handbook, though, better than the Base Class in the Expanded version.

[TheLogman]

As for the Displays, I agree, I kind of just ignored those, going for a more Silent AND Deadly Psionics. As for the Soulknife Prestige, the old one did rule, and easily beats the 3.5 one.

As for the De-braining, wouldn't it be kind of stupid to get THAT close to the guy that has been Brain-Blasting us for the entirety of the battle? Unless this is a battle-opener, or a Sneak Attack, which makes it a bit more limited than Flesh to Stone, so it seems fair to me.

[tainsouvra]

I do like the Soul Knofe PrC in the Psionic's Handbook, though, better than the Base Class in the Expanded version. The ideas in the book were good overall, and a lot of it was usable if you had sufficient house rules...but in my opinion, a book that can't work without major houseruling (to the point that the author used houserules to play, remember) is not a good sourcebook.

I kind of wish he hadn't pulled all the 3.0 material off brucecordell.com, even if it was made obsolete when the 3.5 expanded book came out. It'd be a heck of a lot easier to point out some of the glaring problems if I could just link to his own page about how to fix them.

[Callos_DeTerran]

...Then apparently I have in fact gone completely insane. Please...someone...decerebrate me. n.n

[Citizen Joe]

Edit: Although the Dimensional Anchor would be a creative solution, I don't think it is teleported out, just violently sliced out/disintegrated.


Actually, right there at the top it says Psychoportation [Teleportation]

I think its an ingenious way of defeating a teleporter. They even have dimensional shackles that do this continuously for like 28,000 gp or something. Note that it isn't actually supposed to be a defense, per sae, but imagine the look on the Decerebrator when he teleports in behind you to try yanking your brain and you just smile and gut him.

You do sort of need to KNOW that your opponent uses this technique to justify the cost though.

[Blackdrop]

From the way the power is described, it sounds like the the brain stem is teleported to you, you aren't teleported behind them.

They way I phrased that makes me want to make a sound I've rarely may before.

Ewwww :smalleek:

[Paragon Badger]

Would the Regeneration spell/ability allow you to regrow that part of the brain?

I mean, it can regrow limbs... And I vaguely recall the regeneration spell having some effect to delay the incubation process of a Mind flayer baby. :smallconfused:

Just curious.

[Leon]

Maybe for you. :smallbiggrin: I personally enjoy the thought of a psion teleporting away part of a wizards most valued organ. (And yes I consider the brain an organ in case it's not)



Teleporting away the Bards most Valued Organ is a different matter

[Blackdrop]

Would the Regeneration spell/ability allow you to regrow that part of the brain?

I mean, it can regrow limbs... And I vaguely recall the regeneration spell having some effect to delay the incubation process of a Mind flayer baby. :smallconfused:

Just curious.


True Regeneration only. And with 1d4 days. Otherwise you die of brain death. (You think it would take less time for that to kick in.



Teleporting away the Bards most Valued Organ is a differmt matter

Um...Ow. :smallfrown:

[Dervag]

I would like to point out that removing part of someone brain stem doesn't count as a labotomy, I think.Yeah. It isn't part of the lobes.

A lobotomy may wreck your mind, but it won't kill you, because the part of your brain that's responsible for things like remembering to breathe and eat and such is on a lower level. That's precisely why lobotomies were (are?) occasionally used in mental institutions on patients that the staff couldn't (can't?) find any way to control (such as Randle McMurphy). It doesn't kill you.

On the other hand, knocking out someone's brain stem would kill them, or be very likely to kill them. It might well do that in less than d4 days, for that matter. Moreover, it could achieve any effect that a broken neck could as well, because the nerve signals pass through the brain stem to reach the body.


Maybe for you. :smallbiggrin: I personally enjoy the thought of a psion teleporting away part of a wizards most valued organ. (And yes I consider the brain an organ in case it's not)I prefer a wizard setting a psion on fire, thank you very much. Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Besides, the default rule isn't necessarily the version you use. You don't have to acknowledge it as being a rule that binds your gaming group, but it's still the default.


...Er...wait. Or did they change that from the first psionic's handbook where I remember the psionic/magic transperancy was the variant. (Or maybe I am truly deluded now and just imagaining that it was the variant there and not the default) Incidentally I think it's hoppiecock to have psionic/magic transperancy. (If you haven't noticed)Well, nontransparency enormously inflates the powers of wizards or of psions, whichever is more rare. Because it makes psions virtually defenseless against wizards and vice versa.

Since we don't actually know the first thing about the mechanisms that power magic and psionics, I don't think we're justified in saying that the mechanisms must be separate.


Dimensional anchor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm) might prevent it.But what wizard would cast Dimensional Anchor on himself right before a battle unless he knew that an enemy was going to try teleporting his brain one foot to the left?


Would the Regeneration spell/ability allow you to regrow that part of the brain?

I mean, it can regrow limbs... And I vaguely recall the regeneration spell having some effect to delay the incubation process of a Mind flayer baby. :smallconfused:

Just curious.It should, I think. If a regeneration spell can restore sensation in a limb (as it must to fully restore the limb) then it can heal nerve and presumably brain damage. On the other hand, it would also qualify as "extreme measures... of 14th level or higher."

[Citizen Joe]

Regeneration should work because its a "7th level spell or power" which is the requirement for fixing decerebrate

[nagora]

Maybe for you. :smallbiggrin: I personally enjoy the thought of a psion teleporting away part of a wizards most valued organ. (And yes I consider the brain an organ in case it's not)


Since 1981, mine's been a small harpsichord.

[goat]

I don't understand why if you can teleport a chunk of brain out, you take a bit that leaves them alive for a few days. With the way it's described, you're doing some AMAZINGLY selective brain surgery.

And how the &!*^ does fortitude negate?

"Oh, I never used that bit of my brain anyway!"
"It'll grow back."

[Neon Knight]

I don't understand why if you can teleport a chunk of brain out, you take a bit that leaves them alive for a few days. With the way it's described, you're doing some AMAZINGLY selective brain surgery.

And how the &!*^ does fortitude negate?

"Oh, I never used that bit of my brain anyway!"
"It'll grow back."

"It's just a flesh wound."

"She teleported my brain away!"

*pause*

"I got better."

[Callos_DeTerran]

And how the &!*^ does fortitude negate?

"Oh, I never used that bit of my brain anyway!"
"It'll grow back."

Exactly, all the people most likely to make the save don't use their brains. :smallwink:





Look at it this way, if you make the save that important bit of grey/pink/black matter isn't removed at all.

And I'm ashamed to know all those above who stick to the traditional instruments. *le sigh* Brain opera I'll know ye yet.

[Clove]

I think Flesh to Stone is better also because it is more versatile.

You can store someone for an indefinite period of time.

You could even use a contingency to Stone to Flesh yourself in XX days, months, years, decades, centuries... Then turn yourself into a statue. Instant time travel to the future. You just need a safe place so no one breaks off any of your pieces...

[Dervag]

And how the &!*^ does fortitude negate?

"Oh, I never used that bit of my brain anyway!"
"It'll grow back."I don't know. My theory is that spells like Disintegrate (and this psychic power) which, based on their effects should be instantly mortal all the time can simply not happen to the target if the target passes their Fort Save.

So maybe the 'life force' of a high-Fort-save character has some chance of blocking or nullifying outright the effects of attacks on their molecular structure like this spell.

[Zeful]

I think Flesh to Stone is better also because it is more versatile.

You can store someone for an indefinite period of time.

You could even use a contingency to Stone to Flesh yourself in XX days, months, years, decades, centuries... Then turn yourself into a statue. Instant time travel to the future. You just need a safe place so no one breaks off any of your pieces...

Or if you want to be really mean, cast it on a bunch of people (most notibally the PC's) and chuck them in a permanent antimagic feild in a mountain or forest and watch them run around without any real freedom... or not, I just realized Flesh to stone has an instantanious duration.

[Jack_Simth]

I think Flesh to Stone is better also because it is more versatile.

You can store someone for an indefinite period of time.

You could even use a contingency to Stone to Flesh yourself in XX days, months, years, decades, centuries... Then turn yourself into a statue. Instant time travel to the future. You just need a safe place so no one breaks off any of your pieces...
Contingency won't do the job - it has a duration. Craft Contingent Spell, on the other hand....