Challenge!!! Make an epic progression for base classes

[lade]

I have come across all kinds of variants to base classes but no attempt to make a 21st to 40th progression. Would anyone try their hand at this gauntlet? To try to make an epic progression from 21st to 40th?

[Lalliman]

You didn't say which edition!

[Morphic tide]

Almost certainly 3.X, given that it's the only one to have 1-20 progression with an attachment that gives an infinite progression listing 21-30. And yes, it's an infinite progression, it doesn't stop at 30.

Personally, I'd start with overhauling the existing Epic progressions to be actually worth grabbing Epic levels instead of just going into more PRCs and other classes entirely. The Epic classes typically don't actually continue the feature progressions. Most of them have annoying clauses about features not progressing into Epic, with nobody getting anything for casting beyond feats and CL.

As for 21-40 progression, this gives room for long-period abilities. Anything with a period of 11 levels or more can't be listed in the existing Epic setup, though it rarely comes up. You kinda have to build a class to make it happen.

In terms of stuff to do, the non-full-casters can stand to have slot progression past level 20 to bring them to 9th level spells, defining the list in the sort of notes you get for all the fixed-list casters. Giving entirely new abilities is kinda a large no, but building on what's already there, like giving Monks an Epic Ki Strike list and making everyone get workarounds for their class features that are uses/day, like Barbarian being able to take Fatigue to get an extra Rage/extend an existing one and making Bards be able to trade slots for Bardic Music, would make everyone better.

Druids excluded from this because they really don't need any additional Wild Shape in Epic. Additional bonuses for being in Wild Shape can give them a reason to stick to Animals, Plants and Elementals instead of jumping ship to Dragon Wild Shape ASAP would be welcome, but main casters really should just get stuff to stop them from running out of power entirely at Epic levels.

In general, I suppose the big "theme" of Epic abilities for classes should be Endurance. To hold off running out of power entirely by giving cooldowns and penalties-for-pushing to supplement daily uses. Like having Paladin be able to use X point of Lay on Hands pool for an extra Smite or Cure Disease, and being able to convert Cure Disease into a sizeable fraction of Lay on Hands pool points, then having Lay on Hands automatically recharge some points each round. Similarly, Monk getting Wholeness of Body altered to become Fast Healing with overflow storage would solve some endurance issues they have.

[rferries]

Here's my take on the epic wizard. Since wizards get huge Intelligence scores and I've always hated how skill points aren't gained retroactively (as with Constitution and hp), I gave them a class feature to address that. Gandalf/Elminster/Raistlin and all the other archamages all have forceful personalitites too, so I gave them social skills. Finally, I've never understood the "cap" on 20th-level spellcasting, so they get 10th+ level spell slots as an alternative to epic spells.

Weaknesses that become apparent are the Fort and Ref saving throws - though I homebrewed feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?521627-Revamped-basic-feats&p=21923676#post21923676) to deal with that.

If anyone does epic fighters or other full-BAB classes, I suggest giving them more than 4 iterative attacks, and/or making iterative attacks at the full BAB.

The point about "endurance" is a good one - I could incorporate something along the lines of lower-level spell slots eventually doubling and/or becoming spontaneous slots or spell-like abilities.

Epic Wizard

Hit Die
d4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
2 + Int modifier.




Saves

Spells Per Day


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
10th
11th
12th
13th
14th
15th
16th
17th
18th
19th


21st
+10/+5
+7
+7
+12
Eureka!, Experienced
3
1
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—


22nd
+11/+6
/+1

+7
+7
+13
—
4
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—


23rd
+11/+6
/+1

+7
+7
+13
—
4
2
1
—
—
—
—
—
—
—


24th
+12/+7
/+2

+8
+8
+14
—
4
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—


25th
+12/+7
/+2

+8
+8
+14
Bonus feat
4
3
2
1
—
—
—
—
—
—


26th
+13/+8
/+3

+8
+8
+15
—
4
3
2
2
—
—
—
—
—
—


27th
+13/+8
/+3

+9
+9
+15
—
4
4
3
2
1
—
—
—
—
—


28th
+14/+9
/+4

+9
+9
+16
—
4
4
3
3
2
—
—
—
—
—


29th
+14/+9
/+4

+9
+9
+16
—
4
4
4
3
2
1
—
—
—
—


30th
+15/+10
/+5

+10
+10
+17
Bonus feat
4
4
3
3
2
2
—
—
—
—


31st
+15/+10
/+5

+10
+10
+17
—
4
4
4
4
3
2
1
—
—
—


32nd
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+10
+18
—
4
4
4
4
3
3
2
—
—
—


33rd
+16/+11/+6/+1
+11
+11
+18
—
4
4
4
4
4
3
2
1
—
—


34th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+11
+11
+19
—
4
4
4
4
4
3
3
2
—
—


35th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+11
+11
+19
Bonus feat
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
2
1
—


36th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+12
+12
+20
—
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
3
2
—


37th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+12
+12
+20
—
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
2
1


38th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+12
+12
+21
—
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
3
2


39th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+13
+13
+21
—
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
3


40th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+13
+13
+22
Bonus feat
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4



Spells (Ex)
The wizard’s caster level is equal to her class level. A wizard gains access to 10th-level and higher spell slots as she gains epic levels. These spell slots may be used to cast spells of 9th level and lower that have been enhanced with metamagic feats, or to cast spells of 10th level or higher. Each time the wizard achieves a new level, she learns two new spells of any spell levels that she can cast (according to her new level), though spells of 10th level or higher must generally be independently researched by the wizard herself.

Eureka! (Ex)
At 21st level, an epic wizard's intellect reaches a critical point and grants her an epiphany that reshapes her entire outlook. She loses all her current skill points and skill ranks and then recalculates her skill points using her current Intelligence score (as though she had that score for all prior levels). She may invest these new skill points in the same skills she did originally, in new skills, or any combination of the two. Note that she may lose the benefits of some feats if she has insufficient skill ranks to meet their prerequisites. This process is repeated each time she takes another level of wizard.

Experienced (Ex)
A wizard does not reach epic levels without a keen understanding of magical items and the ability to browbeat/cajole/trick her underlings and fellow archmages. Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device are added to her wizard class skills.

Bonus Feats (Ex)
The epic wizard continues to gains bonus feats (selected from the list of epic wizard feats) every 5 levels after 20th.

Epic Wizard Bonus Feat List
Augmented Alchemy, Automatic Quicken Spell, Automatic Silent Spell, Automatic Still Spell, Combat Casting, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Rod, Craft Epic Staff, Craft Epic Wondrous Item, Efficient Item Creation, Enhance Spell, Epic Spell Focus, Epic Spell Penetration, Epic Spellcasting, Familiar Spell, Forge Epic Ring, Ignore Material Components, Improved Combat Casting, Improved Heighten Spell, Improved Metamagic, Improved Spell Capacity, Intensify Spell, Multispell, Permanent Emanation, Scribe Epic Scroll, Spell Focus, Spell Knowledge, Spell Mastery, Spell Penetration, Spell Stowaway, Spell Opportunity, Spontaneous Spell, Tenacious Magic. In addition to the feats on this list, the wizard may select any item creation feat, familiar feat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?523630-Familiar-Feats-(for-both-you-and-your-familiar)), or metamagic feat not listed here.

In addition to the feats listed above, the epic wizard may spend a bonus feat to gain any archmage high arcana (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm#highArcana) without eliminating a spell slot (even for the Spell-Like Ability high arcana). Her effective archmage level is equal to her wizard level.

Familiar
The wizards’s familiar continues to increase in power. Every two levels beyond 20th the familiar’s natural armor and Intelligence each increase by +1. The familiar’s spell resistance is equal to the master’s class level + 5. At 21st level and again every ten levels higher than 21st, the familiar gains the benefit of the Familiar Spell epic feat for a spell of its master’s choice.

[Morphic tide]

That... Is not how Epic works. Epic classes don't have BAB or save columns. Epic BAB is a flat 1/2 level increase that doesn't grant iteratives for all characters, while Epic saves are a flat +1 every even numbered level(22, 24, 26, 28, 30 and so on). Epic classes are also infinite progressions, not a set number of levels. The tables go to 30 for the sake of demonstration. Here's the basic rules for Epic. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm)

As for Eurika, it's stepping on the Skillmonkey territory too much and is hellish bookkeeping besides that. As for slots above 9th level, there's a feat to give them for large ability scores. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity) The way I'd do it is just continue the normal progression of slots, extending the maximum level past 9th. Describing this as an infinite progression, which is what Epic classes are, would be difficult, but that's what Epic is. Infinite progression classes are the standard for Epic.

[Knaight]

That... Is not how Epic works. Epic classes don't have BAB or save columns. Epic BAB is a flat 1/2 level increase that doesn't grant iteratives for all characters, while Epic saves are a flat +1 every even numbered level(22, 24, 26, 28, 30 and so on). Epic classes are also infinite progressions, not a set number of levels. The tables go to 30 for the sake of demonstration. Here's the basic rules for Epic. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm)

That would be why it's a homebrew progression and not the existing epic rules, yes.

[rferries]

That... Is not how Epic works. Epic classes don't have BAB or save columns. Epic BAB is a flat 1/2 level increase that doesn't grant iteratives for all characters, while Epic saves are a flat +1 every even numbered level(22, 24, 26, 28, 30 and so on). Epic classes are also infinite progressions, not a set number of levels. The tables go to 30 for the sake of demonstration. Here's the basic rules for Epic. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm)

Er, yeah? Wasn't that the whole point of this thread, to replace the current system and give an actual progression? :D


As for Eurika, it's stepping on the Skillmonkey territory too much and is hellish bookkeeping besides that. As for slots above 9th level, there's a feat to give them for large ability scores. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity) The way I'd do it is just continue the normal progression of slots, extending the maximum level past 9th. Describing this as an infinite progression, which is what Epic classes are, would be difficult, but that's what Epic is. Infinite progression classes are the standard for Epic.

Eureka isn't hellish, in fact it makes to easier to write up a high-level character from scratch. For any other character they're simply getting a bunch of extra skill points for the first "Eureka", plus a few extra if their Intelligence increases after that. Unless the player decides to reinvest in entirely different skills every level, though I don't see why they would. The extra class skills are for flavour.

I'm quite familiar with Improved Spell Capacity (note I basically copied the epic wizard bonus feats from the Epic SRD, with some minor additions) and feel that my interpretation of an epic wizard progression should offer "more', hence a more generous spell allotment. You do raise a point about the progression not quite seamlessly continuing from the non-epic wizard, but then again wizards should technically be getting 10th-level spells at 19th level (spell level x 2 -1, as for all their other spells).

It would be easy to continue this as an infinite progression, learning higher and higher-level spell slots but only to a maximum of 4 slots per day for each level (not including those granted by high ability scores).

Of course, this chassis could be stripped down and just replicate the non-epic wizard progression into epic levels, but I assume the original poster wanted something more interesting than that, or else he/should would have just used the current rules in the SRD.

[rferries]

That would be why it's a homebrew progression and not the existing epic rules, yes.

Precisely!

On an unrelated note, I have a suggestion for anyone tackling epic cleric:

"Miracleworker (Su): At 21st level a cleric may spend a turn attempt to use atonement, greater restoration, mass heal, miracle, or true resurrection as a spell-like ability."

"High Priest (Ex): At 21st level a cleric gains access to the domain spells and granted powers of all of his deity's domains. He may spontaneously cast spells from those domains as he would a cure spell."

"Hierophant (Ex): At 22nd level and every two levels thereafter a cleric can select a hierophant special ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm#specialAbility)." (or alternatively incorporate the special abilities into any cleric epic bonus feats you give them).

[Westhart]

Precisely!

On an unrelated note, I have a suggestion for anyone tackling epic cleric:

"Miracleworker (Su): At 21st level a cleric may spend a turn attempt to use atonement, greater restoration, heal, miracle, or true resurrection as a spell-like ability."

"High Priest (Ex): At 21st level a cleric gains access to the domain spells and granted powers of all of his deity's domains. He may spontaneously cast spells from those domains as he would a cure spell."

"Hierophant (Ex): At 22nd level and every two levels thereafter a cleric can select a hierophant special ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm#specialAbility)." (or alternatively incorporate the special abilities into any cleric epic bonus feats you give them).

These look very nice, although I would replace Heal with mass heal.

[rferries]

These look very nice, although I would replace Heal with mass heal.

Good point! Also: woohoo, you're back! :D

[Westhart]

Good point! Also: woohoo, you're back! :D

yes, just uploaded a bunch of new refined materials, I *might* tackle the cleric but it will probably be a week or so... Although I might make some adjustments for my homebrew to be able to be used with this as it is interesting ^^

Working on a warlock rework, soon good enough where I can post... might need help with more invocations though...

EDIT:
here is a few ideas for the cleric, rough unrefined ideas of course:

?: The cleric may rebuke (or command) worshipers of the same deity or creatures with the same alignment as the cleric's deity. she may turn (or destroy) of the opposite alignment of her deity. (Could add servants of enemy gods, which is frequent in Faerun campaigns...)

Aligned Weapon: Any weapon the cleric wields has the unholy/holy/archaic/axiomatic property for as long as the cleric wields it. (If you wish you could split this into 2 groups, getting one component at X level and the second at X level.)

One for the Druid:
Path of Neutrality: The druid gains immunnity to any spell or effect that targets depending on alignment, such as the Dark speech (has a different effect depending on evil/non-evil) or the multiple word spells.

And a possible idea for the barbarian:
At every 4 levels past 20th, the bonus to strength and constitution granted by a barbarian's rage increases by 2 points (at level 40 this would be +10, alternatively you could make every two levels, giving a +20 bonus.)

[lade]

What I mean is for 21st to 40th to contain new and unique class features that each character gets for progressing beyond 2oth level in a class. Please use 3rd edition or pathfinder rules to develop epic features for each class.

[JBPuffin]

What I mean is for 21st to 40th to contain new and unique class features that each character gets for progressing beyond 2oth level in a class. Please use 3rd edition or pathfinder rules to develop epic features for each class.

They caught on pretty quick >.> :smallsmile:.