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View Full Version : Optimization Tk Tk the Blender [One-Round Tarrasque Kill, Including Wish]



9erik1
2017-08-09, 02:05 AM
References: Player's Handbook (PHB), Dungeon Master's Guide (DMG), Expanded Psionics Handbook (XPH), Unearthed Arcana (UA), Dungeonscape (DS), Complete Warrior (CW), Monster Manual II (MM2), Savage Species (SS), Magic Item Compendium (MIC)

Note: Some of the language is over-explanatory to help people that don't necessarily know all the content. I'm sure there are also other game-breaking ways to do this, but I tried to be as minimalistic as possible while still being able to kill the Tarrasque on the first round of initiation, with no shennanigans like pre-loading a cow with energy-exchanged fire seeds and sending it in to be eaten, etc.

Also, big thanks to Anthrowhale, Diarmuid, VisitingDaGulag, Aracor and Hackulator for pointing out the flaws in the initial build. Checking the SRD is hard cause I don't have my books, only PDFs to cross reference. The new build is now a 30-point stat buy and almost goes over the wealth limit.

Tk Tk, "The Blender"


Race: Thri-Kreen (XPH)
Class: Racial HD 2 / Factotum 8 / Dervish 10
Stats: STR 18 / DEX 20 / CON 8 / INT 14 / WIS 10 / CHA 4 (30-point buy)
BAB: +18/13/8/3 (2 Racial, 6 Factotum, 10 Dervish)

Skills: Tumble 23, Jump 5, Perform (Dance) 3 *** to qualify for Dervish, the rest are irrelevant
First 4 Feats (to Qualify for Dervish): Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (Gythka)
Remaining 3 Feats: Multiweapon Fighting, Improved Multiweapon Fighting, Power Attack
Stat Increases: All into STR for 23 at level 20

Necessary Variant Rule: from Unearthed Arcana, there's a variant rule where you can pay off level adjustment with experience as you level up. Under this system, it would cost 19k XP to pay off a Thri-Kreen's +2 level adjustment (because of the 2 racial HD). That would put the total XP at 209,000 which is just shy of the regular level 21. This is key because Factotum 8 and Dervish 10's class abilities are both specifically needed.

• Potions: Fox's Cunning [300 gp], Aid [300 gp], Heroism [750 gp], Haste [750 gp]
• 4x Oil of Keen Edge [3,000 gp]
• +1 Padded Armor of Roaring (MIC +3 bonus) [16,155 gp]
• Gloves of DEX +6 [36,000 gp]
• Belt of Giant STR +6 [36,000 gp]
• Cloak of Etherealness [55,000 gp]
• Ring of Three Wishes* [97,950 gp]
• 2x Gythka** with (on each end of the weapon):
+4 Enhancement Bonus, Bane (Magical Beast), Frost, Shock, Merciful*** [513,320 gp]

TOTAL [759,525 gp]

* Preliminary: First wish on the ring goes toward raising STR by 1. This puts you to 30 strength along with the belt.
** Thri-Kreen double slashing weapon; deals 1d10 damage with x2 critical. From XPH.
*** Because all damage dealt to the Tarrasque is non-lethal anyways.



• From the Factotum class, you get these free action spends called Inspiration Points. At level 8, you get 5 of them per encounter. One of his abilities lets you spend 1 point to cast any spell from the wizard list (that you've predetermined for the day, but don't have in a book or anything -- you can pick any set of spells from the list, provided they're within your level capability). This capability for level 8 is up to 3rd level spells. We need 2 spells: Wraithstrike and Nerveskitter. The other key ability of the Factotum is called Cunning Surge, acquired at level 8, which lets you spend 3 points to take another standard action in a round.

• From the Dervish class, you can go into a Dervish Dance whereby you get a +5 hit/dmg bonus with slashing weapons. Then the big kicker, at level 10 you have A Thousand Cuts which lets you double your number of attacks in a full attack action once per day. It also specifies that you can get an extra attack from haste, but it's a bit vague about whether or not you can double that extra attack, so I decided not to. I'm aware the enhancement bonuses to speed don't stack, and AC, whether it stacks or not, is irrelevant.

• So, the thri-kreen has 4 arms and 2 double weapons. Improved Multiweapon Fighting lets him make 2 off-hand attacks (he has 3 off hands for 6 off-hand attacks total), three at BAB and three at -5 from full BAB. Combined with his 4 main hand attacks, that's a total of 10 attacks at a lowest attack bonus of +3. Using a full -18 power attack, our lowest attack bonus is now -15. You then have to factor in that Gythkas aren't light weapons in the offhand (even as a double weapon). All attacks take only take a -4 penalty because of Multiweapon Fighting. So the lowest attack is at -19. The fact that Gythkas aren't light weapons in the offhand is key, because this means we can use Power Attack's damage bonus with each head of the weapon.

• Now factor in attack bonuses: +10 from STR, +5 from Dervish Dance, +4 from enhancement bonus, +1 from weapon focus, +2 from Heroism and +1 from Aid is +23 altogether. That puts our lowest attack at +4 now. That's all we need.

• Your main hand damage bonus will be 10 STR + 4 Enhancement + 5 Dervish Dance + 18 Power Attack = 37. It will be 32 on the off-hand attacks because you only get to use half your strength to damage for those. Because of Bane (Magical Beast) on the weapons, the effective enhancement bonus will become +6 to bypass the epic DR.

• The other enchantments on your weapon do extra dice on each hit: Bane (2d6), Frost (1d6), Shock (1d6) and Merciful (1d6). These don't get affected by spell resistance.

• A big part of the fight is winning initiative, so we'll guarantee it. One of our uses of Wish will be before we move in to initiate, duplicating the Heroics spell to get Improved Initiative (+4, unnamed). When we begin the fight the Roaring armor will activate giving us a +4 competence bonus to initiative. Dervish class gets a +2 unnamed bonus. We have 26 DEX for a bonus of +8. That's +18 so far. Then Factotum's Brains over Brawn ability lets use use our INT mod on Dexterity checks; with the potion of Fox's cunning active that will give us 18 INT for another +4 (+22 total); with Nerveskitter that will put us up to +27, guaranteeing first place in initiative.

• The Tarrasque has scent, which will detect you at 30 feet, 60 feet if you're upwind. Stand 65 feet away and out of sight while he's on his rampage. Before moving in, prepare with the following (in order): Use second Wish to duplicate Heroics (Improved Initiative), use Oils of Keen Edge on each Gythka weapon head, drink potions of Heroism, Aid & Fox's Cunning.

• From there, use the cloak of etherealness so he can't see, hear or smell you from the ethereal plane and begin moving in. Float over to behind him, and you'll be undetected. Dismiss ethereality and you've caught the Tarrasque flat-footed. Activate Nerveskitter as an immediate action (1 inspiration point out of 5) and drink the potion of Haste in the surprise round. You're at +27 initiative (compared to the Tarrasque's +7), giving you first place in combat.

• Start by activating Wraithstrike as a swift action (2 inspiration points out of 5). You're now ignoring natural armor, putting the Tarrasque at 5 AC, and you have 21 attacks for one round (the extra 1 being from Haste).

• All attack rolls except 1 hit and all criticals (which occur on a 19 from your Oils of Keen Edge) will be auto-confirmed because you have a +4 attack bonus on your lowest attack, and he's only got 5 AC.

• You have to move 5 feet in between every 2 attacks because of Dervish Dance, but that's not a problem with a base movespeed of 40 + Haste. Because of your 23 ranks in Tumble + Jump synergy, you can accelerated Tumble around him to avoid attacks of opportunity. You're literally dancing circles around him shredding him up like a (merciful) blender and he can't do jack to stop you.

• On average you'll deal about 22d10 + 100d6 + 750, which itself will average out to 1221 damage. It's only 100d6 instead of 110d6 because you'll average 1 miss and 2 criticals, but the extra dice from weapon enhancements don't get multiplied.

• So yeah, buddy drops to past -10 HP after a full attack action. Now use a free action to spend your last 3 inspiration points from Factotum and use Cunning Surge to get another standard action. Use standard action to activate the Ring of Three Wishes and wish the thing dead with your last charge.

ONE ROUND, FEELS GOOD

As far as I've calculated (because it seemed cool to do at the time), the chances of this failing are ridiculously low. About 1 in 1000 as a generous rough estimate (I'd have to write a program to do the calculations properly). Even if you roll four ones, all on your main hand, and get no criticals to compensate, you're still doing 17d10 + 85d6 + 569. That'll average out to 960 ± 56 (the error margin being the sum of the 2 sigma value for both dice distributions, both rounded up)... so yeah, you'd have to roll at least 5 misses with no criticals, and even still, if all of those misses are off hand misses you still do 925 ± 54. The chances of 5 misses and no criticals on its own is 1 in 2117, nevermind the additional chances of rolling on the lower end of two dice distributions.



Race: Thri-Kreen (XPH)
Class: Racial HD 2 / Factotum 8 / Dervish 10
Stats: STR 17 / DEX 13 / CON 8 / INT 13 / WIS 10 / CHA 4 (17-point buy)
BAB: +18/13/8/3 (2 Racial, 6 Factotum, 10 Dervish)

Skills: Tumble 3, Perform (Dance) 3 *** to qualify for Dervish, the rest are irrelevant
First 4 Feats (to Qualify for Dervish): Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (Gythka)
Remaining 3 Feats: Multiweapon Fighting, Improved Multiweapon Fighting, Power Attack
Bonus Feat from Dervish: Spring Attack
Stat Increases: All into STR for 22 at level 20

Necessary Variant Rule: from Unearthed Arcana, there's a variant rule where you can pay off level adjustment with experience as you level up. Under this system, it would cost 19k XP to pay off a Thri-Kreen's +2 level adjustment (because of the 2 racial HD). That would put the total XP at 209,000 which is just shy of the regular level 21. This is key because Factotum 8 and Dervish 10's class abilities are both specifically needed.

• Potion of Aid [300 gp]
• Potion of Heroism [750 gp]
• Belt of Giant STR +6 [36,000 gp]
• Cloak of Etherealness [55,000 gp]
• Ring of Three Wishes* [97,950 gp]
• 2x Gythka** with (on each end of the weapon):
+1 Enhancement Bonus, Bane (Magical Beast), Frost, Shock, Merciful*** [201,320 gp]

That's it -- TOTAL [391,320 gp]

* Preliminary: First 2 wishes on the ring go toward raising STR by 2. This puts you to 30 strength along with the belt.
** Thri-Kreen double slashing weapon; deals 1d10 damage with x2 critical. From XPH.
*** Because all damage dealt to the Tarrasque is non-lethal anyways.



• From the Factotum class, you get these free action spends called Inspiration Points. At level 8, you get 5 of them per encounter. One of his abilities lets you spend 1 point to cast any spell from the wizard list (that you've predetermined for the day, but don't have in a book or anything -- you can pick any set of spells from the list, provided they're within your level capability). This capability for level 8 is up to 3rd level spells. We need 2 spells: Wraithstrike and Haste. The other key ability of the Factotum is called Cunning Surge, acquired at level 8, which lets you spend 3 points to take another standard action in a round.

• From the Dervish class, you can go into a Dervish Dance whereby you get a +5 hit/dmg bonus with slashing weapons. Then the big kicker, at level 10 you have A Thousand Cuts which lets you double your number of attacks in a full attack action once per day. It also specifies that you can get an extra attack from haste, but it's a bit vague about whether or not you can double that extra attack, so I decided not to. I'm aware the enhancement bonuses to speed don't stack, and AC, whether it stacks or not, is irrelevant.

• So, the thri-kreen has 4 arms and 2 double weapons. Improved Multiweapon Fighting lets him make 2 off-hand attacks (he has 3 off hands for 6 off-hand attacks total), three at BAB and three at -5 from full BAB. Combined with his 4 main hand attacks, that's a total of 10 attacks at a lowest attack bonus of +3. Using a full -18 power attack, our lowest attack bonus is now -15. You then have to factor in that Gythkas aren't light weapons in the offhand (even as a double weapon). All attacks take only take a -4 penalty because of Multiweapon Fighting. So the lowest attack is at -19. The fact that Gythkas aren't light weapons in the offhand is key, because this means we can use Power Attack's damage bonus with each head of the weapon.

• Now factor in attack bonuses: +10 from STR, +1 from enhancement bonuses, +1 from weapon focus, +5 from Dervish Dance, +1 from Aid and +2 from Heroism is +20 altogether. That puts our lowest attack at +1 now. That's all we need.

• Your main hand damage bonus will be 10 STR + 1 Enhancement + 5 Dervish Dance + 18 Power Attack = 34. It will be 29 on the off-hand attacks because you only get to use half your strength to damage for those. Because of Bane (Magical Beast) on the weapons, the effective enhancement bonus will become +6 to bypass the epic DR.

• The other enchantments on your weapon do extra dice on each hit: Bane (2d6), Frost (1d6), Shock (1d6) and Merciful (1d6). These don't get affected by spell resistance.

• The Tarrasque has scent, which will detect you at 30 feet, 60 feet if you're upwind. Stand 65 feet away and out of sight while he's on his rampage. Use the cloak of etherealness so he can't smell you from the ethereal plane.

• From there, drink your potions, then use your haste (1 inspiration point out of 5). Float over to behind him, and you'll be undetected. Dismiss ethereality as a free action, activate Wraithstrike as a swift action (2 inspiration points out of 5) and begin assault with free-action Dervish Dance and A Thousand Cuts.

• You're now ignoring natural armour and have caught the Tarrasque flat-footed, putting him at 2 AC, and you have 21 attacks for one round (the extra 1 being from Haste).

• All attack rolls except 1 hit and all criticals will be auto-confirmed because you have a +1 attack bonus on your lowest attack, and he's only got 2 AC.

• You have to move 5 feet in between every 2 attacks because of Dervish Dance, but that's not a problem with a base movespeed of 40 + Haste. Because of Spring Attack, he gets no attacks of opportunity on you while you move. You're literally dancing circles around him shredding him up like a (merciful) blender and he can't do jack to stop you.

• On average you'll deal 21d10 + 100d6 + 654, which itself will average out to 1119 damage. It's only 100d6 instead of 105d6 because you'll average 1 miss and 1 critical, but the extra dice from weapon enhancements don't get multiplied.

• So yeah, buddy drops to past -10 HP after a full attack action. Now use a free action to spend your last 3 inspiration points from Factotum and use Cunning Surge to get another standard action. Use standard action to activate the Ring of Three Wishes and wish the thing dead with your last charge.

ONE ROUND, FEELS GOOD

As far as I've calculated (because it seemed cool to do at the time), the chances of this failing are ridiculously low. About 1 in 600 as a rough estimate (I'd have to write a program to do the calculations properly). Even if you roll four ones and get no criticals to compensate, if only one of them is on your main hand, you're still doing 17d10 + 85d6 + 533. That'll average out to 924 +/- 56 (exactly 868 damage at the -56 end of the error margin; the error margin there is the sum of the 2 sigma value for both dice distributions, both rounded up)... so yeah, you'd have to roll at least 4 misses with no criticals to compensate, and at least 2 of those misses have to be on the main hand.

I wholeheartedly welcome commentary.

EDIT: Formatting
EDIT 2: Posting of new build draft.

Anthrowhale
2017-08-09, 03:23 AM
There may be a flaw? The Dervish Dance does not provide an enhancement bonus so the bane property only creates a +3 enhancement which does not count as epic.

9erik1
2017-08-09, 08:54 AM
Ah you know what, you're right -- I thought that was the case, but it's hard to find the sources that actually confirm that. Took a few reads over the Epic Magic Weapons description to realize. My first draft of this build was a +4 enhancement and Bane, so I'll edit and redraw the numbers. Thanks!

Diarmuid
2017-08-09, 10:31 AM
Should dismissing the Etherealness be a Standard Action?

ExLibrisMortis
2017-08-09, 10:38 AM
Nice, I like it. Nothing too custom or too weird, and a clean kill.

When it comes to weapon enchantments, I'd recommend collision. It's a flat +5 damage for +2 bonus equivalent, and flat damage is multiplied on crits.

Aracor
2017-08-09, 12:17 PM
Should dismissing the Etherealness be a Standard Action?

You are correct about this, since it's as per spell.

VisitingDaGulag
2017-08-09, 12:55 PM
Isn't "getting the drop" on an enemy what I surprise round is? Creatures are limited in their action during surprise rounds.

You could always win initiative, though.

9erik1
2017-08-09, 07:48 PM
Thanks for the input guys. I made this build on not a lot of sleep, and I'm out here in Japan without all my books, so it's been tough tracking down all the rules. My original build used a +4 enhancement, but I thought I could cheat the system. That's ok, we can up the enhancement bonus to +4 without going overboard on gold. I'll reduce the stat point buy to compensate. Collision for the flat damage is good, but I'd rather two of the frost/shock/merciful to collision because it's an average of 3.5 damage per d6 of dice, and this will fail-proof the build by adding more damage on the low end. Even allowing 2-sigma variation on 2d6 will outweigh the benefit of +5 damage on 3 misses and no criticals (worst case scenarios).

Either way, the dismissal of etherealness is a problem as far as the "perfection" of the build goes. The limitations on surprise rounds also pose a slight problem, but that can be fixed by adding a +3 to hit by potions or the like. It'd suck if this build has to come down to winning initiative, but we'll see what I can do.

EDIT: I would imagine you can delay your action in the surprise round to get top initiative in the first round, right?

Aracor
2017-08-10, 12:27 PM
My guess is that you'll simply need to optimize your initiative. The system is designed that if you want to have a full-round action before your opponent, you need to win initiative.

Another piece of bad news worth noting:
Because of Spring Attack, he gets no attacks of opportunity on you while you move. That's not true, because spring attack only allows a single attack - not a full attack. Dervish Dance specifically allows attacks of opportunity.

AvatarVecna
2017-08-10, 07:58 PM
A good Swift Hunter/Knowledge Devotion build, a splitting force bow, and a Belt Of Battle can take the Tarrasque out with a couple Greater Manyshots even with only a single FE assigned to Magical Beast; such a build would be pretty generally good against most things, which I think is better than a build that's specifically good against Magical Beasts. With an Artificer cohort to cheese your items to hell and back, and tons of stuff focusing on Magical Beasts, you could probably kill the Tarrasque with a single Greater Manyshot (and thus not need the Belt Of Battle). I'd have to go make such a build to check, though.

Goaty14
2017-08-10, 08:56 PM
I'm sorry, but how does using Wish make a fainted enemy die without DM input?

Bucky
2017-08-10, 08:57 PM
Getting killed by Wish when fainted is a Tarrasque special ability.

Hackulator
2017-08-10, 11:04 PM
How are you qualifying for improved multiweapon fighting with dex 13? I think it also requires Multidexterity.

ExLibrisMortis
2017-08-11, 04:39 AM
How are you qualifying for improved multiweapon fighting with dex 13? I think it also requires Multidexterity.
Multidexterity is a 3.0 feat, the three-handed replacement of Ambidexterity. A 3.5 conversion of Improved Multiweapon Fighting should require only Multiweapon Fighting and 15 dex.

9erik1
2017-08-11, 04:55 AM
How are you qualifying for improved multiweapon fighting with dex 13? I think it also requires Multidexterity.

Yaaa that's right, gotta up DEX to 15. The goal of the build is to be as minimalistic as possible, but I guess I should get the build working properly, then minimalize.

As far as Multidexterity goes, I had thought that going from 3.0 to 3.5 made MWF the replacement for TWF for a creature with multiple arms, and thus the requirements would have disappeared. I guess the cross-version-ness of the build makes that a bit more complicated. If the Multidexterity requirement wouldn't get waived that can be dealt with though.


spring attack only allows a single attack - not a full attack. Dervish Dance specifically allows attacks of opportunity.

Thanks for that clarification. I guess there's just no way in the rules to force your way into the top of initiative with a full attack action, even with the element of surprise, which is kind of weird. From the looks of it, this build would have to win initiative or at least not get swallowed or killed on the first round, then use a non-Dervish Dance full attack.

ASIDE: Still learning the forums, how do you get the quote to show the quoted person?

ExLibrisMortis
2017-08-11, 04:58 AM
Thanks for that clarification. I guess there's just no way in the rules to force your way into the top of initiative with a full attack action, even with the element of surprise, which is kind of weird. From the looks of it, this build would have to win initiative or at least not get swallowed or killed on the first round, then use a non-Dervish Dance full attack.

ASIDE: Still learning the forums, how do you get the quote to show the quoted person?
A flat-footed creature can't make any AoOs, so the surprise/first round should be safe even without Mobility. Nevermind, the Tarrasque has Combat Reflexes. I didn't realize it has 16 dex :smallconfused:.

To quote someone, use the "reply with quote" button at the bottom of their post, or the multiquote button next to it (which has no text), and then "reply" for multiple posts.

Pleh
2017-08-11, 06:42 AM
To quote someone, use the "reply with quote" button at the bottom of their post, or the multiquote button next to it (which has no text), and then "reply" for multiple posts.

You can also do it manually.

[ Quote ][ /quote ] gives quote box with no attributed speaker.
[ Quote="speaker" ][ /quote ] gives quote box attributed to speaker
[ Quote=username;postidnumber ][ /quote ] gives quote box attributed to "username" and links to "postidnumber" so they can click to go straight to the quoted post.

Hitting the "reply to" and "reply to multiple" is the easiest way to quote (especially if you want the links that lead straight back to the quoted post), but all of the options are valid.

9erik1
2017-08-11, 07:56 AM
Thanks for the help on that guys!

I've almost got the character rebuilt for success; there's a few things I don't understand about Tumble though:

When tumbling you add 2 to the DC for "each additional opponent" (emphasis mine) you're trying to Tumble past in a round. Would that mean you only have to roll once to constantly tumble around the same opponent? My common sense tells me no; I don't play that way anyways. But it would make my life easier in this case if I'm wrong.

In regards to speed, does one tumble reduce your movement for the whole round, or does it just mean 1 square of movement becomes 2 when you make the check and then you move normally? I think the latter, but I'd like to be sure. For example, If I have 30 ft. speed normally, that would mean I could move 20 ft. and make a 5 ft. tumble, right?

When you use Tumble multiple times in a round, do they all have to be the same type of tumble? Or can some be half-speed and some accelerated?

Thanks again!

AvatarVecna
2017-08-11, 08:26 AM
Thanks for the help on that guys!

I've almost got the character rebuilt for success; there's a few things I don't understand about Tumble though:

When tumbling you add 2 to the DC for "each additional opponent" (emphasis mine) you're trying to Tumble past in a round. Would that mean you only have to roll once to constantly tumble around the same opponent? My common sense tells me no; I don't play that way anyways. But it would make my life easier in this case if I'm wrong.

In regards to speed, does one tumble reduce your movement for the whole round, or does it just mean 1 square of movement becomes 2 when you make the check and then you move normally? I think the latter, but I'd like to be sure. For example, If I have 30 ft. speed normally, that would mean I could move 20 ft. and make a 5 ft. tumble, right?

When you use Tumble multiple times in a round, do they all have to be the same type of tumble? Or can some be half-speed and some accelerated?

Thanks again!


Tumbling is part of movement, so a Tumble check is part of a move action.

Tumbling is a thing you can do as part of a move action. Under normal circumstances, you cannot move through a space occupied by an enemy, and if you move through a space threatened by an enemy, they get an AoO against you. When you move, you can choose to operate under the normal movement rules (taking a move action to move your full speed, a full action to move double speed at no penalty, or a full action to run at quadruple speed in exchange for some penalties), you can withdraw (use a full action to move twice your speed, with the first square of movement not triggering AoOs), or you can try and Tumble (which lets you avoid AoOs by slowing down if you can succeed on a check). When you decide to Tumble, you determine the base DC by whether you move through any enemy spaces with your movement; if yes, it's 25, if no, it's 15. From there, if there's more than one enemy you're tumbling past, you add one point to the DC for each additional enemy (you're obviously tumbling past at least one enemy, which is factored into the base DC). Whether you succeed or fail, you only get to move up to half your speed as this movement. If you spend multiple Move Actions in the same turn tumbling past people, you make one Tumble check per move action spent tumbling, and any factors (such as whether you decide to attempt to accelerated tumble) are determined for each individual check.

EDIT: I have to run an errand, so I can't look it up myself, but I imagine there might be a rule in the movement section saying you can't move more than your speed by spending multiple Tumble checks in the same round, although I'm really unsure about such a rule's existence.

Eldariel
2017-08-11, 08:28 AM
Yes, +24 Tumble suffices to full speed Tumble around one opponent forever. It's beyond trivial for a level 20 character; you can have +25 from ranks and Jump-synergy alone. Let alone Dex, Mw. Tool, etc. Basically, rank Tumble and don't mention it.

9erik1
2017-08-11, 12:48 PM
EDIT: I have to run an errand, so I can't look it up myself, but I imagine there might be a rule in the movement section saying you can't move more than your speed by spending multiple Tumble checks in the same round, although I'm really unsure about such a rule's existence.

This isn't what I was getting at; I'm pretty sure that's not possible. As far as I know, a tumble check as part of a 5 foot movement out of a threatened square would be considered a 10 foot movement unless you make an accelerated tumble. The question there was whether or not one tumble reduces your speed for the whole round of movement. That is, on a regular tumble with a 30-movespeed character, you could tumble 5 ft. and then move another 20?

Then there's the other question of whether or not you can do both regular and accelerated tumbling in a round; for example tumble normally past one enemy at DC 15 and then do an accelerated tumble at DC 17 with -10 for the next.

I ask these because although the consensus seems to be you can tumble circles around one enemy on one tumble check, it still seems weird to me. It does say each additional enemy, and my idea of the logic behind that is tumbling multiple times in the timespan of a round gets progressively harder, and that's why it's +2 for successive tumbles, and multiple enemies in one tumble is just a harder tumble to warrant the +2. If you could tumble 10 times around one enemy on one roll, why should it be harder to tumble past two enemies (spaced apart) on two rolls? That is, with two enemies spaced apart, why shouldn't their tumble DC's both be 15? When we play, even if there's one enemy and you're passing through two of his threatened squares, you make a DC 15 and 17 check.

AvatarVecna
2017-08-11, 03:27 PM
This isn't what I was getting at; I'm pretty sure that's not possible. As far as I know, a tumble check as part of a 5 foot movement out of a threatened square would be considered a 10 foot movement unless you make an accelerated tumble. The question there was whether or not one tumble reduces your speed for the whole round of movement. That is, on a regular tumble with a 30-movespeed character, you could tumble 5 ft. and then move another 20?

Then there's the other question of whether or not you can do both regular and accelerated tumbling in a round; for example tumble normally past one enemy at DC 15 and then do an accelerated tumble at DC 17 with -10 for the next.

I ask these because although the consensus seems to be you can tumble circles around one enemy on one tumble check, it still seems weird to me.

That's not how Tumbling works. When you decide that your movement involves Tumbling, then you spend a move action and move half your speed (or your whole speed, if you're using accelerated tumbling). The result of the Tumble check doesn't determine your speed, only whether you take AoOs or not. Well, if you're trying to tumble through an enemy space and fail the check, I think you just fail to move, but anyway...

But halving your speed or no, it only matters for that particular move action, for that particular Tumble...but you don't get to split a single move into "tumbling" and "not tumbling" depending on how much of the movement is next to enemies. If you're Tumbling around an enemy, then you're spending a move action to move half your speed without provoking AoOs; if you're Accelerated Tumbling, then you're spending a move action to move your full speed without provoking AoOs.

Additionally, because you've got multiple move actions in a turn, one of them could be Accelerated and one could not; this would result in you moving a total of 1.5 times your speed, and if you made both checks you would avoid provoking AoOs.

To be clear: Tumbling is part of a single move action. If you are making multiple Tumbles (that is, if you're spending multiple move actions on Tumbling), you are spending multiple move actions and so much make multiple Tumble checks. These checks don't affect each other.

D&DPrinceTandem
2017-08-11, 09:08 PM
I FEEL INDPIRED!!!! I am going to try and kill the tarrasque as well, just difrently, maybe find a way around its regeneration if possible but still gonna doit it either way.

9erik1
2017-08-12, 12:24 AM
That's not how Tumbling works. When you decide that your movement involves Tumbling, then you spend a move action and move half your speed (or your whole speed, if you're using accelerated tumbling). The result of the Tumble check doesn't determine your speed, only whether you take AoOs or not. Well, if you're trying to tumble through an enemy space and fail the check, I think you just fail to move, but anyway...

But halving your speed or no, it only matters for that particular move action, for that particular Tumble...but you don't get to split a single move into "tumbling" and "not tumbling" depending on how much of the movement is next to enemies. If you're Tumbling around an enemy, then you're spending a move action to move half your speed without provoking AoOs; if you're Accelerated Tumbling, then you're spending a move action to move your full speed without provoking AoOs.

Additionally, because you've got multiple move actions in a turn, one of them could be Accelerated and one could not; this would result in you moving a total of 1.5 times your speed, and if you made both checks you would avoid provoking AoOs.

To be clear: Tumbling is part of a single move action. If you are making multiple Tumbles (that is, if you're spending multiple move actions on Tumbling), you are spending multiple move actions and so much make multiple Tumble checks. These checks don't affect each other.

I'm not concerned with using tumbles with 2 move actions, I'd understand those would be separate things. I'm looking at how the tumbling mechanic works, and seeing contradiction in the above; on one hand you've said you're spending a move action to tumble, then at the bottom you mention the skill as described in the book: you can tumble at one half speed as part of normal movement. The latter makes more sense to me; you're only tumbling through threatened squares, so if the threatened square is 15 ft. away from you, you hustle 15 ft., then tumble 5 ft. out of the square which counts as 10 ft. movement. That would result in 25 ft. of movement against your normal limit, but only 20 ft. of actual movement. So tumbling past multiple enemies (that is, spaced apart, tumbling through two separate threatened squares in one movement) would in essence be multiple tumbles, which should be splittable into accelerated and non-accelerated tumbles as you see fit, no?

AvatarVecna
2017-08-12, 02:44 AM
I'm not concerned with using tumbles with 2 move actions, I'd understand those would be separate things. I'm looking at how the tumbling mechanic works, and seeing contradiction in the above; on one hand you've said you're spending a move action to tumble, then at the bottom you mention the skill as described in the book: you can tumble at one half speed as part of normal movement. The latter makes more sense to me; you're only tumbling through threatened squares, so if the threatened square is 15 ft. away from you, you hustle 15 ft., then tumble 5 ft. out of the square which counts as 10 ft. movement. That would result in 25 ft. of movement against your normal limit, but only 20 ft. of actual movement. So tumbling past multiple enemies (that is, spaced apart, tumbling through two separate threatened squares in one movement) would in essence be multiple tumbles, which should be splittable into accelerated and non-accelerated tumbles as you see fit, no?

The rules are not required to - and in many places, pretty explicitly do not - make perfect sense. My understanding is that if your movement would involve Tumbling, you decide whether this move action's Tumbling will be accelerated or not, and this sets the maximum distance your Tumbling can take you regardless of the spacing and positioning of enemies. If the rule was "movement spent tumbling through an enemies space counts as difficult terrain" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#terrain), then I would be more inclined to believe that your view of it is RAW...but it doesn't say "tumbling movement around enemies costs double", it just says "your speed is halved".

In any case, it makes more sense to me that, when you're moving past a bunch of enemies in close quarters, and you're taking steps to avoid getting attacked, you have to decide whether you're going at full speed or half speed at the start of your movement, rather than saying "I'll take this guy slow, but run around this guy 'cause he won't stand a chance"; to me, it makes more sense that the decision to take things fast and risky is made when you start your movement, and doesn't really have time to vary in between foes in that movement.

There's obviously some realism issues that can come up with this reading of the rules, but I'm not seeing anything that really contradicts it either. For what it's worth, I don't see any real issue with interpreting the rules as "tumbling halves your speed when moving through an opponent's space, but not otherwise" and "you can decide to tumble full speed around some people and half speed around others in the same move" (other than that it's probably a significant boost to Tumble, but martials need nice things), I'm just saying I'm pretty sure it's not how the rule is supposed to be played if you're playing it by the letter.

EDIT: And reading everything over, while I'm not seeing anything saying my way is wrong, I'm also not seeing anything (other than the lack of a "difficult terrain around enemies" as mentioned) that says yours is a wrong reading of the written rules. Unfortunately RAW isn't always as clear as we'd like it to be, because things aren't always very clear. I would recommend looking over the FAQ or the Errata to see if this vague language issue got officially cleared up by anybody, if you're looking for an official ruling.

Outside of that, probably best to have the DM look at it and make a judgement call.

9erik1
2017-08-12, 02:31 PM
it doesn't say "tumbling movement around enemies costs double", it just says "your speed is halved".

It specifically says you can tumble at one half speed as part of normal movement, that's why I bring up the contradiction. "Part of" would imply that normal movement (i.e. hustling) outside of the tumble action is possible, hence being able to hustle and tumble in one move action. Other than that, as I'm new to the forums I don't understand what RAW means, despite seeing it on many forum posts.

The way I'm looking at it, it seems that successive tumbles reset the DC 15 check, and the +2 DC's you add come from moving out of a square threatened by multiple enemies, and the direction you're moving determines the order of the DC's. So, in that sense, +24 tumble would suffice to let you tumble circles around an enemy all round.

Mr Adventurer
2017-08-12, 02:44 PM
If you can also get immunity to being Dazed, the Greater Celerity spell straight-up grants you an additional full-round action, and you could cast it on your surprise round.

Eldariel
2017-08-12, 02:49 PM
You can use two standard actions to start and finish a full-round action too.

9erik1
2017-08-12, 09:41 PM
If you can also get immunity to being Dazed, the Greater Celerity spell straight-up grants you an additional full-round action, and you could cast it on your surprise round.

Celerity is ultimate cheese, I've considered it but would like to avoid it. I've already got the build re-drafted with initiative optimized by using Nerveskitter on surprise round and replacing the Haste spell with just a potion/oil of haste. Guaranteed initiative win.


You can use two standard actions to start and finish a full-round action too.

The key feature of the build is to get 'er done on first turn of initiation. I need the full-round action for the attack and the Cunning Surge is what lets me finish the job with Wish. The only thing there doesn't seem to be consensus on is Tumble, which, in other threads has lengthy Q/A sessions with varying opinions than what is seen here. But as far as I can see, as one other person mentioned, +24 Tumble would suffice to circle around the Tarrasque for the move action, so I'll be posting the updated version probably today or tomorrow.

Mr Adventurer
2017-08-13, 03:03 AM
You could use Cunning Surge twice in the surprise round: start, then finish the Full Attack, then use the RoW...

9erik1
2017-08-13, 06:27 AM
At Factotum level 8 you only get 5 inspiration points in an encounter; it costs 3 to use Cunning Surge.

Eldariel
2017-08-13, 06:58 AM
At Factotum level 8 you only get 5 inspiration points in an encounter; it costs 3 to use Cunning Surge.

There is always the Font of Inspiration, the God of Nova feat. Take it a few times and swim in extra actions.

Mr Adventurer
2017-08-13, 08:50 AM
Belt of Battle or (regular) Celerity would also do it.

I agree that Belt of Battle and Celerity are bad news in most games; but, then, I'd feel similarly about a character with 10 attacks natively, too.

Eldariel
2017-08-13, 08:54 AM
Belt of Battle or (regular) Celerity would also do it.

I agree that Belt of Battle and Celerity are bad news in most games; but, then, I'd feel similarly about a character with 10 attacks natively, too.

I dunno, 10 attacks is just TWFer with Haste/Speed, Whirling Frenzy and one natural attack (e.g. Bite). Nothing to write home about by 20.

9erik1
2017-08-13, 09:05 AM
Belt of Battle and Celerity are specifically two things I'm trying to avoid. Most of the items in the new draft are only DMG items, with the exception of the Roaring enchantment on armor for +4 initiative.

As for Font of Inspiration, that would lose me Improved MWF or Power Attack, both of which I need. Heroics could cover that, but you'll see in my new draft that I use Heroics for Improved Initiative. Stacking Heroics is also something I want to avoid. Plus, Font of Inspiration would allow for two Cunning Surges but would take away the Wraithstrike and Nerveskitter that I need for initiative and armor bypass.

Mr Adventurer
2017-08-13, 09:49 AM
I dunno, 10 attacks is just TWFer with Haste/Speed, Whirling Frenzy and one natural attack (e.g. Bite). Nothing to write home about by 20.

Haste and Whirling Frenzy are both outside of what I meant by "native". The point of this build is that it has 10 attacks which are then improved through the application of various effects, whereas what you have proposed is reaching 10 attacks through such effects.

I mean, sure, it's level 20 and no amount of melee attacks is really that impressive if you're talking about an optimisation environment with spellcasters at the top...

9erik1
2017-08-13, 10:37 AM
Meh, this is "optimized" only for killing the Tarrasque. The main idea is that it's not too excessive, and gets the job done in one round. There are a lot of shennanigans builds out there for killing the Tarrasque as low as level 11 I think I've seen, but this is just one guy, one round, no overpowered spells or cheese stacking of things like Heroics.

Also, I saw it above, but in the surprise round you only get a standard action; as someone had mentioned, the only way to begin combat with a full round action is to win initiative.

In other news though, the new draft has finally been posted. Haven't fine comb reviewed it, but it should be good.

The_Iron_Lord
2017-08-13, 11:49 AM
Meh, this is "optimized" only for killing the Tarrasque. The main idea is that it's not too excessive, and gets the job done in one round. There are a lot of shennanigans builds out there for killing the Tarrasque as low as level 11 I think I've seen, but this is just one guy, one round, no overpowered spells or cheese stacking of things like Heroics.

Also, I saw it above, but in the surprise round you only get a standard action; as someone had mentioned, the only way to begin combat with a full round action is to win initiative.

In other news though, the new draft has finally been posted. Haven't fine comb reviewed it, but it should be good.

Actually, Inevitability posted a tarrasque-killing level 1 commoner a while back, though it's certainly not PO as your build is...

EDIT: It obviously fails to kill it in one round though.

9erik1
2017-08-13, 10:32 PM
Do you have a link to it? I'm curious, but can't find it by search.