A Wizard / Sorcerer as a better Monk in 3.PF ?

[Altair_the_Vexed]

With a selection of touch attack spells, speed improving spells and such like, I reckon we can make a Wizard or Sorcerer that achieves the design goal of the Monk, better than the actual core class does it - but I need help! I'm not big on "building" characters: I tend to just play straight out of the box, so to speak.

I think Pathfinder will allow this best, but I'd be interested to hear about 3.5's ability to deliver, too.

I'll lay out what I consider that design goal to be: high mobility, high damage per round, no armour but hard to hit, unarmed fighting / not using weapons - and most importantly: wuxia style!

Taking the standard array for abilities: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 - I'll need high STR, DEX, CON and either INT or CHA. WIS is a dump stat.

Being human - get a +2 to one of those scores: I think DEX? Also, get an extra feat - that'll be Improved Unarmed Strike.

1st level feat - Combat Casting seems sensible to me, as we'll be getting into melee and trying to cast spells

Spell selection:
0-level: Daze, Touch of Fatigue, Resistance, Ray of Frost 1st level: Mage armour, Shocking grasp

Bloodline: I really can't decide on this one - the ones that grant touch attaches are good, but they're limited in uses per day...

Is that a good start? Can it be better? I've only got access to the Pathfinder stuff in the Resource Docs online, so please steer away from obscure splatbooks!

[Florian]

Oracle with the "Ascetic" mystery is very monk-y and also comes equipped with the oracular spellstrike revelation.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Oracle with the "Ascetic" mystery is very monk-y and also comes equipped with the oracular spellstrike revelation.

Not bad... But the Cleric spell selection is poor for wuxia style action.

[Florian]

Not bad... But the Cleric spell selection is poor for wuxia style action.

Then use an Elf (Dusk Elf) and Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle archetype to get the arcane spells you need. You automatically know any Inflict spell, which work fine with oracular spellstrike, and you want to go for Harm anyways.

[Psyren]

I think Pathfinder will allow this best, but I'd be interested to hear about 3.5's ability to deliver, too.

3.5 has a higher ceiling an thus gives you more power for this concept. All you really need to be a "monk" is the ability to fight unarmed and without armor - for the latter, preferably in a way that can't be dispelled. 3.5 has more ways to do this thanks to feats like Kung-Fu Genius, Carmendine Monk or Ascetic Mage.

3.5 also rewards you more for dipping around, or at the very least has fewer tradeoffs for doing so.

[Karl Aegis]

Cast Haste and you have the core class features of the Monk.

[digiman619]

Yeah, I can see using spells to make your "monk", but why do you need 9th level spells to do it? 6th would do the job just as well. You listed this as 3.P, so why not a Magus? They have ways to empower your punches with the arcane pool before even touching their spells.

[Psyren]

For an easy "punch-Magus" check out the Esoteric (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo-magus-archetypes/esoteric-magus-archetype/) archetype from OcA.

[dude123nice]

For an easy "punch-Magus" check out the Esoteric (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo-magus-archetypes/esoteric-magus-archetype/) archetype from OcA.

That is literally worse than the standard magus at being an arcane monk. Nothing stops the normal magus from using Spell Combat and Spellstrike with unarmed strikes, so if we compare everything that the Esoteric gains versus everything it looses compared to the standard magus it comes of as a big nerf. The only advvantage the Esoteric has is in being able to use arcane pool to empower unarmed strikes, but you can use items to add enchantments to your punches.

EDIT: For an archetype that actually helps the magus be more monk-like without replacing anything to important try the Spell Dancer from advanced race guide. Only restriction is that you have to be an Elf, Half Elf or Human with a certain feat to take it. You can see the archetype here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/elf/spell-dancer-magus-elf/

[Buddy76]

I was lurking in a thread a few months back and AvatarVecna posted a pretty badass melee wizard build. It does use some cheese (Incantatrix) and I have now idea when it comes online, but here you go:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527478-Most-Optimized-Wizard-a-Fighter-Can-Beat/page4

It's the sixteenth post down.

Just retool a few things to make him a unarmed fighter and change the fluff from Thor to Immortal Taoist Sage or something like that.

[AvatarVecna]

I was lurking in a thread a few months back and AvatarVecna posted a pretty badass melee wizard build. It's does use some cheese (Incantatrix) and I have now idea when it comes online, but here you go:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527478-Most-Optimized-Wizard-a-Fighter-Can-Beat/page4

It's the sixteenth post down.

Just retool a few things to make him a unarmed fighter and change the fluff from Thor to Immortal Taoist Sage or something like that.

For what it's worth, that build has some issues, namely that a number of the spells involved can't be usually Persisted - but this can be solved by putting Ocular Spell on them first (although this means it's harder to get the big effects on, and as a result you'll be generally less powerful than you're supposed to be at that point). That said, if you have Ocular Spell and Persistent Spell, the earliest you can bring things "online" with that build is lvl 8, when you have Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3.

Middle-Aged Sun Elf Necropolitan Wizard 5 (Elven Generalist 1 and 3)/Incantatrix 3
Rat Familiar
Traits: Hardy/Passionate

Attributes (Lvl 8, no items, 32 pb): Str 13/Dex 13/Con -/Int 22/Wis 6/Cha 14
Attributes (Lvl 8, items, buffs): Str 17/Dex 15/Con -/Int 26/Wis 6/Cha 16

Max out the 6 creature knowledge skills, with the remaining skills points split between Concentration, Spellcraft, and UMD as needed/preferred.

Feats:
HD 1: Insightful Reflexes
Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll
Flaw (Pathetic Wisdom): Faerie Mysteries Initiate
Flaw (Pathetic Wisdom): Keen Intellect
HD 3: Knowledge Devotion
Otyugh Hole 4: Iron Will
Wizard 5: Extend Spell
HD 6: Ocular Spell
Incantatrix 1: Persistent Spell


Items (22300+greathammer cost):
Headband Of Intellect +4 (16000)
+1 Minotaur Greathammer (2300+base cost (?))
Cloak Of Charisma +2 (4000)


Buffs:
Bite Of The Werewolf (Persisted via Incantatrix)
Blindsight [or Tremorsense if preferred] (Persisted via Incantatrix)
Fly (Persisted via Incantatrix)
Wraithstrike (Persisted via Incantatrix)
Aerial Alacrity (Persisted via Incantatrix)
Haste (Ocular'd/Persisted via Incantatrix)
Shield (Persisted via Incantatrix)
Greater Resistance
Extended Greater Mage Armor
Ruin Delver's Fortune [Fort] (Persisted via Incantatrix)
Extended Greater Mighty Wallop
Enlarge Person (Persisted via Incantatrix)
Heroics [EWP: Greathammer] (Persisted via Incantatrix)
Heroics [Power Attack] (Persisted via Incantatrix)


Combat Stats:
AC 28 (Base 10+Armor 6+Shield 4+Dex 3+Dodge 2+Natural 4-Size 1)
FF AC 23 (Base 10+Armor 6+Shield 4+Natural 4-Size 1)
Touch AC 14 (Base 10+Dex 3+Dodge 2-Size 1)
HP 116 (8d12+64)
Speed: Land 60 ft/Fly 120 (good maneuverability)
Fort +14 (Base 2+Con 0+Rat 4+Traits 2+Greater Resistance 3+Cha 3)
Ref +16 (Base 2+Int 8-Traits 1+Greater Resistance 3+Dodge 2)
Will +19 (Base 7+Int 8+Iron Will 2-Trait 1+Greater Resistance 3)
Full Attack +10/+10 targeting Touch AC (BAB 3+Str 3+Enh 1+Haste 1+KD 3-Size 1) or +7/+7 with Power Attack
Damage 6d6+8 or 6d6+14 with Power Attack
Crit 19-20/x4 (24d6+32, or 24d6+56 with power attack)




There's a few things to mention about this build, as far as cheese goes: it uses Dragon Magazine content (which some tables aren't cool with), it uses both metamagic reduction and metamagic cost substitution (which is always extremely cheesy), and it uses Flaws (both of which dump your Con score into the sea). This build goes Necropolitan instead of Otherworldly because the former is better for Fighter!Wizard, while the latter is better for Monk!Wizard (Otherworldly makes you Outsider, and thus proficient with all simple/martial weapons, including Unarmed Strike).

Honestly though, Wizard isn't the best way to go about this: if you're wanting to play a full caster as Monk 2.0, CoDzilla would be perfect (particularly a DDM Persist Cleric). Really, I'd recommend a build like Monk 2/Cloistered Cleric 4/Divine Fist X or whatever.