Subclass Gestalt Design

[Catullus64]

I told my players that I would consider organizing a brief (5-6 Sessions) game in which they could play as subclass gestalt characters. (One class, two subclasses.) There are few logistical issues with organizing such a game, and while I could probably figure them out, I enjoy hearing alternate suggestions. So my questions are as follows.


At what level should the game be played? Multiple subclass features means that subclass levels are massive power jumps, and since different classes receive features at different levels, some levels will massively skew in favor of certain classes.
How do I adjust encounter difficulty to accompany increased player power? After all, everybody's HP, AC, spell slots, and Ability Scores are the same as in a normal game of the same level.
What combinations are just too darn good? Given the volume of subclasses available through UA (which I would rather not ban altogether), what specific combinations of two subclasses could be potentially gamebreaking? I do intend to out-and-out ban certain combos, and for the sake of my sanity I'm going to disallow multi-classing.


Even if this premise ends up proving infeasible, it's still an enjoyable thought experiment. Let me know your thoughts

[j_spencer93]

This could be a neat concept. Honestly not sure there is much more you could do but increase the amount of creatures they fight, use creatures a CR or two higher, or better yet, specifically design each encounter to involve traps and tricks to catch them off guard.

[Elminster298]

I told my players that I would consider organizing a brief (5-6 Sessions) game in which they could play as subclass gestalt characters. (One class, two subclasses.) There are few logistical issues with organizing such a game, and while I could probably figure them out, I enjoy hearing alternate suggestions. So my questions are as follows.


At what level should the game be played? Multiple subclass features means that subclass levels are massive power jumps, and since different classes receive features at different levels, some levels will massively skew in favor of certain classes.
How do I adjust encounter difficulty to accompany increased player power? After all, everybody's HP, AC, spell slots, and Ability Scores are the same as in a normal game of the same level.
What combinations are just too darn good? Given the volume of subclasses available through UA (which I would rather not ban altogether), what specific combinations of two subclasses could be potentially gamebreaking? I do intend to out-and-out ban certain combos, and for the sake of my sanity I'm going to disallow multi-classing.


Even if this premise ends up proving infeasible, it's still an enjoyable thought experiment. Let me know your thoughts

DO NOT, and I repeat, DO NOT let anyone play a "Lore/Theurgy" wizard! HonesHonestly off the top of my head this is the only one I can think of. This is an interesting way of doing gestalt and I like the concept.

[clash]

So the problem with this is that some subclasses add a lot more in terms of power than other ones. A cleric with 2 subclasses will have a few extra ways to use his already limited resource. A fighter will get spell slots and battle master maneuvers should he so choose. Where both add a substantial bump in his power.

If you are proceeding I would suggest level 3. By then everyone has there subclass to experience it, and many signature features comes as the first subclass feature so it will probably be the most balanced with only one subclass feature.

[proselus]

I run a full gestalt campaign in 5e, so things are a tad different than just gestalting subclasses, but I can share some of my advice and experience.

My players are not much stronger, in the sense that they don't deal more damage or kill things more quickly, but they are much more durable. The biggest limitation is action economy, and 5e really doesn't allow for the same kind of abuse that 3.5 did. The main advantage they have is options. Between 4 characters, they have 8 classes worth of options, so any problem has multiple solutions they can easily work together on.

With your subclass only gestalt, durability won't increase like it did for me, but the options (depending on the class I suppose) will. I would hesitate at ramping up the difficulty too quickly, as their health and saves will be as standard, and action economy will prevent them from truly unloading on enemies. YMMV

[Aett_Thorn]

My main concern with this is that you have some classes where the subclasses would compete for certain resources. For instance, while Warlocks would get most of the benefits of their Patrons, their spell lists are only options that they can add to the Warlock spell list - they don't get them for free. So they still have their limited amount of spells known, but now have even more to chose from, which might frustrate them a bit. Compare to Clerics, where having two Domains means having extra spells prepared for free, giving them more versatility. Warlocks do get all of the other benefits, though, so I'm not sure it would be a huge deal, but it might come up.

[Elminster298]

My main concern with this is that you have some classes where the subclasses would compete for certain resources. For instance, while Warlocks would get most of the benefits of their Patrons, their spell lists are only options that they can add to the Warlock spell list - they don't get them for free. So they still have their limited amount of spells known, but now have even more to chose from, which might frustrate them a bit. Compare to Clerics, where having two Domains means having extra spells prepared for free, giving them more versatility. Warlocks do get all of the other benefits, though, so I'm not sure it would be a huge deal, but it might come up.

The Warlock throws an additional quirk into this form a gestalt... do you get to pick a second boon? The Warlock class is split up in its "archetype" choices. This creates more flexibility and opens up additional builds but limits their benefit from this idea.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

One concern is that some classes are more dependent on their subclass than others, and thus will get greater benefits from multiple ones. For example, a Fighter will benefit from two Archetypes much more than a Barbarian will benefit from two Paths.

Also, some classes have levels where subclasses give essentially the same feature, which will either be wasted or double up in a problematic way - consider, for example, a 8th level Life/War Cleric getting two instances of Divine Strike, or a Knowledge/Fire Cleric getting Potent Spellcasting twice. Clerics and Paladins also have the factor of two sets of Domain/Oath spells increasing their options considerably. Paladins in particular will have more Oath Spells than non-Oath ones.

Multiclassing could be highly problematic, as small dips (particularly in Cleric, Sorcerer and Warlock) become even more powerful. Probably don't allow it.

Specific problematic combinations that come to mind:

Revised Ranger: Beastmaster + anything else. Beastmaster is very much balanced around not getting extra attack, now you have it back.

Nature + Arcana Cleric, combining Shillelagh, Booming/Greenflame Blade, Divine Strike, and Potent Spellcasting for a tidy 3d8+2*Wis (3*Wis if you take a more favourable view regarding Shillelagh and Potent Spellcasting). Not bad for a full caster with zero expenditure. Also doesn't run into the rules headaches of doubling up on Divine Strike/Potent Spellcasting I mentioned above.

At 17th+, Thief/Assassin Rogue. Why yes, I would like to get Assassinate/Death Strike in twice. Could do upwards of 300 damage with that.

Abjurer/Bladesinger Wizard: Dying is basically something you don't do. Especially once you hit 9th level spells and combo it with Shapechange - Yea verily, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am a Pit Fiend with AC 24 and three overlapping health pools.

[Spiritchaser]

Abjurer/Bladesinger Wizard: Dying is basically something you don't do. Especially once you hit 9th level spells and combo it with Shapechange - Yea verily, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am a Pit Fiend with AC 24 and three overlapping health pools.

This was the very first thing that came to my mind, and well worth joking about!

[MrStabby]

I think it could work as a system (ignoring multiclass) and if you confine yourself to PHB races.

Yes, not all classes would be equal - less important for a one off campaign. Also somewhat mitigated by classes being different to how they normally would be.

A few classes spring to mind as being very good even discounting obvious abuse from stacking abilities.

Druid. Never having to chose between powerful wildshape and more spells. Can burn spellslots fast in the knowledge they can get them back AND can turn into powerful animals.

Bard. This would appeal to me for a lot of builds. Now you can have a great gish at love levels. Level 6 will let you play with powerful weapon/armour proficiencies, two attacks and a spell like spirit guardians or Armor of Agathys. You can even dump Cha and focus on spells that don't need it as you won't need to multiclass. Now you can get all this and the advantages of grappling like a god or whatever skills you want to add.

Paladin. Nothing much stacks here. Apart from the Auras. On the other hand more auras is seriously powerful

[Aett_Thorn]

Bard. This would appeal to me for a lot of builds. Now you can have a great gish at love levels. Level 6 will let you play with powerful weapon/armour proficiencies, two attacks and a spell like spirit guardians or Armor of Agathys. You can even dump Cha and focus on spells that don't need it as you won't need to multiclass. Now you can get all this and the advantages of grappling like a god or whatever skills you want to add.

You could also make one heck of an Arcane Archer with the Bard with this system. At level 6 you get Extra Attack as well as being able to pick up Lightning Arrow and Hail of Thorns. Plus, all of those great ways to use Bardic Inspiration!

[JBPuffin]

Depending on the optimization-love your players have, you might not have any problems or be bogged down from the get-go by rule-shatterers. Level 3 is a minimum starting level (everyone has their subclass by then, after all), and most combinations have problems with overlapping resources, with the exception of Fighters and Rogues. Honestly, though, since all that changes for most classes is the number of options they have in a given fight, I'm not sure you'll have too many issues. As for fights, throw more hard/challenging encounters at them.

[Lombra]

I say that you'll find it smooth and clean. The action economy stays the same, so having more options is not gonna wreck encounters. I'd leave everything unchanged at least for the first session, after which you'll decide if the encounters were as difficult as you wanted them to be, and eventually balance the next encounters.
Official material only I can't see any "broken" combinations, but I wouldn't allow multiclassing, not for power but for simplicity.

[Rowan Wolf]

I run a full gestalt campaign in 5e

Did you allow gestalt spellcasters (non-warlock) 2 pools of spell slots or just the better progression and both prepared/known lists?