Need Help with Bad Guy Tactics

[Palanan]

I need some tactical advice on how to run combat encounters more effectively. The party is second level, and while I know that low-level combat can be very swingy, I can tell that I’m not challenging the party as fully as I could.

I’m good with story and world-building, but not so good with the tactical details of combat encounters—how to maneuver into position for flanking, how to use terrain and cover, how to make best use of five-foot steps and other move/attack combos.

When I’m sending thugs and bandits against the party, I can justify my poor tactics on the grounds that the bandits aren’t that bright, and aren’t used to fighting against targets who fight back. But the party will be facing much more than bandits from here on out, and I need to be able to play an opposing group as an experienced, cohesive fighting team.

So, what are some specific tactics that could help me run more challenging combat encounters?

.

[denthor]

Not a correct premise.

Chaotic opponents will make bad moves and not really coordinate.

Play them with the first volley of arrows having poison.

Give them personality will they run at 1/2 hit points.

Traps. Poorly fastened door lots of space for light to pore thru this warning time.

[flappeercraft]

It really depends on the composition of the group. More details would be useful. Without that information, all I can really say is have synergistic abilities and or focus opponents, target whoever is vulnerable and don't hold back unless strictly necessary.

[Celestia]

Cavalry charges are always effective. *nods*

[daremetoidareyo]

Give the bad guys objectives other than killing all of the PCS. If the bad guys want to rob a caravan, they only need to get the goods from the Caravan, or more specifically just the most expensive goods from that Caravan.

At low levels I like putting Rogues with maxed out UMD and half charged Wands of baleful transposition, there are by locking PCS in the boonies or behind difficult terrain, and possibly the Rogue in Prime sneak attack position. Plus the PCS if they defeat that Rogue get a cool little trick of their own to use but only a limited number of charges.

Bad guys that use terrain to their advantage are so much more fun then bad guys that fight till they die.

Don't be afraid to put the bad guys on some crazy mounts. Spiders lizards lions giant chickens. Put a goblin with a handful of blasting Scrolls and a UMD score in a backpack on the back of an ogre, then put that ogre on a giant skateboard.

Imbued summoning is another great feet to put on enemy casters. Summon some fiendish Hawks with jaws of the Moray attached, or some invisible crocodiles.

Another fun technique, although it needs a little bit of information leaked to the PCS, is to have enemies disagree and even hate each other that have to work together and thus can be split with social rolls. Even some unhappy abused wolves can get that Ranger with wild empathy a moment to shine by bucking its Rider.

Bolas and Nets and tanglefoot bags are also very vexing for PCs and they hate it but they love it

[Goaty14]

Is asking you to use special attacks bad advice?
Example: Fighter Brawler and Rogue Assassin start killing people, the fighter starts grappling people, while the rogue starts bringing on the sneak attack

[AnimeTheCat]

Ambushes are a good next step from disorganized thugs. Alleyways that the pcs need to go down blocked by burly thugs the get flanked by hidden rogues. It really tests party tactics, especially if they're used to having the wizard and/or cleric in the back. Putting the heat on one of them can quickly make a 4 player party scramble and burn resources against as few as 2 opponents.

Also, a cutpurse or two nabbing valuables from the party and then leading them on a chase into an ambush works great.

[Stelio Kontos]

It's hard to give specific advice, and hard to suggest you use certain tactics well as a GM when you aren't familiar with them as a player. You'll need to brush up on the rules and your micro-level tactics.

That said, two things generally differentiate the bad guys from the good guys in ways that you can take advantage of in a neutral setting:

1) They care a lot less about collateral damage, so large explosions, catching innocents in the way of area of effects (or using them as shields), or destruction of buildings or landscape are all on the menu; and
2) They tend to care a fair bit less about their allies than the PCs do. Bad guys expect attrition. PCs can't afford it, it means one of them is dead. This means sending out sacrificial lambs to distract the party or concentrate them in a certain place are great tactics.

Imagine summoning a moderately annoying monster. The party, or at least all the melee types, will tend to swarm it to kill it quickly (because attrition is bad, and while one of them could probably kill it slowly, it's better if they all do it quickly). Now drop a cage from the ceiling. Suddenly your melee guys are stuck worrying about that, and your casters are worrying because their meat shields are unavoidably detained. This doesn't have to be a permanent effect; even a couple of rounds delay can change the course of a combat.

For defensively-oriented bad guys (like, any time the PCs are invading a dungeon/marauding the countryside/attempting to arrest the bad guy in his home), you have all manner of traps and tricks available, and remember that they will design their home with the intent to deter intruders. Imagine you're a wealthy, hated person in a modern poor city with no friendly law enforcement. You're going to invest heavily in alarms, safes, locks, and more lethal methods to keep you safe. Think about that, and then adapt to your setting.

The simplest and best way to cause chaos is usually to attempt to divide the party. A well placed wall spell, a mechanical trap that drops a doorway, or a narrow crossing that causes the party to move single file are all great ways to accomplish this simply.

As far as ambushes, distract the eye. PCs are usually in alert mode, and then when combat happens they're in combat mode. Find something to trigger combat mode; this will make them less alert for the real attack. A smart enemy will send small tests (again, they don't care about cannon fodder!) to trigger a response, then craft a plan to counter that response. Most PC groups fall into predictable patterns. Find out what they are, because your smart enemies certainly will want to know.

In natural settings, terrain is always an advantage. Trees provide cover, hills provide higher ground, rivers prevent easy crossing. Take advantage of your PCs weaknesses. If they're weak at range, shoot at them from across the river, and have someone ready to cut the bridge. If they're weak at melee, attack in places where they have a tough time engaging at long distance (i.e. a forest). Obviously don't do this all the time -- but smart enemies, especially ones "on their home turf", will have thought of these things. A smart enemy won't wait patiently in its lair.

Finally, remember that in a lot of settings, the bad guys don't HAVE to fight on the PCs terms. Sometimes it's unavoidable, sometimes it's not. But a smart one will choose to fight where they can create an advantage -- just as your PCs will.

One nice way to flavor up certain enemies IMO is with teamwork and betrayal feats; these also tend to shape the tactics that you will use for an enemy.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos
You'll need to brush up on the rules and your micro-level tactics.

It’s the micro-level tactics that I really need help with. I simply don’t have a good feel for tactical options.

What I need is a better understanding of how to most effectively position the adversaries—how to get them into the best positions, and how to keep them in advantageous spots as the fight progresses. If there’s a guide to tactical movement somewhere, that would be ideal. It just doesn’t come naturally to me.


Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos
One nice way to flavor up certain enemies IMO is with teamwork and betrayal feats; these also tend to shape the tactics that you will use for an enemy.

Interesting suggestion, thanks. Teamwork feats in particular could be helpful, since that would help make a team of adversaries a much tighter combat unit than the PCs.


Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos
Find something to trigger combat mode; this will make them less alert for the real attack. A smart enemy will send small tests (again, they don't care about cannon fodder!) to trigger a response, then craft a plan to counter that response.

Also good advice. The real trick is coming up with a plan on the fly—and then, of course, executing it via micro-tactics. I'm not good at thinking in those terms.


Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo
…there are by locking PCS in the boonies or behind difficult terrain….

I can’t work out the syntax here. Autocorrect strikes again?


Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo
Bolas and Nets and tanglefoot bags are also very vexing for PCs and they hate it but they love it

Worth keeping in mind, thanks.

[daremetoidareyo]

I can’t work out the syntax here. Autocorrect strikes again?



The boonies is an american colloquialism that refers to a "vaguely unpleasant swampy outdoor environment far from where they would rather be."

A low level rogue with UMD in such a place, like hiding in the middle of a nasty 10 feet radius of briar patch with a clear view of an ambush site could be posted as a tactical reinforcement option if things get dangerous. Rogue swaps places with the PC, who is now left watching the melee from 10 feet deep of briars 100 feet away from the ambush site as the rogue moves into a flanking position on the sorcerer. It forces the PC to use ranged items at a penalty or spend 2-1/2 rounds just using move actions to re-enter the fray. And if you knock out the rest of the PCs before the swapped member reaches them, hit them with another go on the wand while the rest of the crew readies actions.

You'll be selling your players to neogi slavers on the way to a ysgardian gladiatorial colliseum in no time. You know, the kind of slavers who go to a place where they test the qualities of katanas by seeing how many bodies they can cut through in a single running pass, like a sociopathic samurai tom sawyer clacking a stick against a picket fence; all on a plane that brings you back to life every dawn. While slaad and fiend factions sign a magical peace treaty to gamble souls that they acquire on how many bodies their finest (often stolen) artisan blades can cut through. I hope they got spell slots left...

[Mutazoia]

Bandits tend to be cowards (for the most part) and tend to attack groups that they think are weaker than they are. They will usually hide and try to surround their target, both to cut off escape, as well as intimidate (if someone can't run, they have a higher chance of just surrendering with out a fight) as well as the added effect of making their numbers look bigger than they might actually be.

They will most likely have scouted their intended target well in advance, so they will know how many is in the group, and will have identified any possible problem people, such as the guy dressed in wizard robes, to be attacked first.

They will have the ambush point set up, most likely where their target will pass through a gully or ravine, or anywhere where their movment options will be restricted, that also boasts plenty of cover for the bandits to hide in. They will also use this cover to hide and shield their archers (they will have a few) during combat. A higher elevation, such as a hill or, if necessary in the trees, would be ideal, so that anyone trying to attack the archers will have to fight uphill. These archers will be sure to concentrate fire on the pre-determined problem people first. Take down that mage before he starts slinging spells! They'll wait until they can pop out of hiding in front of, behind, and in the middle of the target group, before starting combat.

In combat, they will attempt to gang up on people as much as possible. 1 on 1, or 2 on 1 is for idiots. If they have the numbers on their side (and they most likely wouldn't attack unless they did) 3 or more to 1 odds at least (more on the "problem people" if possible). They will definitely try to set up flanking boni for each other, and the archers. If they have a caster of their own, he/she will most likely be prepaired with movement hampering magics as well as spells like Sleep, hold person, etc. The idea is to try to win with the first strike if at all possible, with as little damage to their own forces as they can manage.

While they may jump out and threaten a group of unarmed commoners, they will definitely shoot first and ask questions later when it comes to armed advenurers, if they decide to engage at all. Bandits also seldom (read as "never") fight to the death, unless there is no way out for them. If the odds start to swing in the targets favor (drop below 3 on 1), they'll break off and retreat (yet another reason for their caster(s) to use movement hampering magics, to deter persuit). It's better to be a live dog, than a dead lion.

[Rickey]

Detectorall Co., Ltd. produces metal detectors and security devices with excellent quality and favorable price.

[Calthropstu]

I second the use of terrain. The best fights take a really long time. My group is still talking about the grueling 32 round combat I put them through a while back, draining them to the last... all because of wind preventing archery combat.
Many of my attacks on the party threaten tpk. To be fair, it's only 3 pcs plus a dmpc, but it's that grueling threat of death around every corner that makes my dming memorable.

Here's the thing to remember: monsters, be they bandits or dragons have abilities. USE THEM. Put a wizard directing the combat standing on a balcony with protection from arrows, Put a pair of blink dogs who drop into flanking, use a summoner who brings flankers into being, throw in a brawler who likes to bull rush people off of balconies or cliffs.
PFS has a scenario where goblin alchemists run in the rafters dropping bombs... took the party I gm'd it for 9 rounds to take them down because I used their abilities.
Use terrain, use abilities and you are sure to have the party fighting rather than strolling through combat encounters.
Also, use the "run away" option. Villains who get away and keep coming back are quite memorable.

[AnimeTheCat]

I was actually just reading another thread on a similar topic, only this time from the players perspective and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454210-Thread-from-the-Wizard-Forums-Guide-to-Alternate-Goals-in-Combat) link showed up. It gives a pretty good guideline for different ways to do combat.

(That link was courtesy of Barakaka from the thread "How do you as a player handle your character becoming listless (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?532524-How-do-you-as-a-player-handle-your-character-becoming-listless)")

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat
I was actually just reading another thread on a similar topic, only this time from the players perspective and this link showed up. It gives a pretty good guideline for different ways to do combat.

Okay, thanks. Those are some potentially useful scenarios, but a little too broad-brush to help with what I’m asking here.

What I’m looking for is very fine-grained advice on how to move adversaries around the battlemat. I can work up scenarios just fine—it’s executing them that gives me headaches.


Originally Posted by Mutazoia
These archers will be sure to concentrate fire on the pre-determined problem people first. Take down that mage before he starts slinging spells! They'll wait until they can pop out of hiding in front of, behind, and in the middle of the target group, before starting combat.

Focusing on the “problem people” is definitely part of the strategy….


Originally Posted by Mutazoia
They will definitely try to set up flanking boni for each other….

…but it’s the fine details of how to set up the flanking and etc. that still give me trouble.


Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat
I was actually just reading another thread….

Speaking of other threads, did you get my PM about my questions on the healer build?

[Mutazoia]

…but it’s the fine details of how to set up the flanking and etc. that still give me trouble.

Flanking isn't hard to set up, especially if you use the above mentioned "Lurk in a tree/high ground and drop into the middle of the party" method. Also, your bandits are going to have (or should have) a few levels of rogue. With a successful DC check, they can tumble through a threatened area, with out provoking an AOP. Now they are behind their target, and providing a flanking bonus. Also, have a bruiser or two...your basic tank that can charge in, suck an AOP and still remain standing...get a tank in some ones face and they won't have time to worry about what's happening to anybody else.

Have your caster open combat by casting "sleep". If your bandits have a cleric (they should) then he/she can use "silence 10' radius" to mask any noise that the ambush party might make as they crouch above the road....

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mutazoia
With a successful DC check, they can tumble through a threatened area, with out provoking an AOP. Now they are behind their target, and providing a flanking bonus.

This is really helpful, thanks—exactly the sort of tactical advice I’m looking for.

In this case, it’s a good reminder about tumble, which is something I’ve neglected. Definitely will be adding this to the bad guys’ combat repertoire.

More suggestions along these lines are very welcome.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Positioning is very subtle and usually is encounter and party specific. However, here are a few general principles.

1. If you can, have your bad guys charge. +2 to hit is good. So charge whenever they can.

2. Try not to get in your own way. For example consider bad guys A,B, and C vs PC P in this scenario. Numbered squares are empty.

ABC
123
456
7P8

Assume for simplicity sake that A and C are not in the way of B. (Maybe they're one square back). B is charging. Squares 4, 5, and 6 are equidistant so he can charge to any one of them. But if he charges to either 4 or 6 he will interfere with bad guy A or C's charge so the correct answer is for him to charge to 5. Then the other two can charge as well.

3. Always flank whenever possible.

4. Don't give things away for free. Its ok to take an opportunity attack-especially from a weakened character- in order to threaten a more vulnerable or significant character (stereotypically the wizard, but sometimes an Archer or a cleric). But never do it if there is a movement path that gets you there without taking an opportunity attack.

5. Set up ways for the players to give you freebies. If you position your bad guys so that in order to reach the evil wizard, the PCs have to provoke opportunity attacks, you have given the PCs a chance to give you free attacks. It pays to be in the way.

6. Don't forget other situational bonuses like the +1 for higher ground. Have the bad guys climb on top of that table. It's cinematic and optimized.