Universal WoD using different editions

[frost890]

So one of the local storytellers at my game shop is wanting to try and do a universal WoD game. Right now it is looking like he is going to allow old WoD and New WoD books. I am wondering if anyone has tried to mix the two versions? I am still waiting on some specifics but it looks like we will be mixing Fey, Mage, Werewolf, Vampire and maybe some others. Are there any red flags that I should watch out for?

[comicshorse]

I've never played it myself but from what I've heard OWoD Mages can, if given an inch, be overwhelmingly powerful.
Also the problem with running Vampires with other Supernaturals is the Vampire players tend to get bored because as soon as the sun starts to come up they have to run and hide and are then completely out of the game for the next 6 - 12 hours of game time( depending on season)

[Mr Blobby]

Seek out: Vampire: Translation Guide. It talks in length between converting between VtM and VtR. Don't know if they did similar for Werewolf and Mage. Though interestingly said Guide doesn't mention meshing both together. [At least, don't recall them doing it].

If the ST is doing a full hybrid [and not simply say playing VtM with VtR Covenants or something] the main thing which I'm aware is an issue is Generation - Blood Potency. The former is needed for the whole Antediluvians metaplot and the latter makes the walking Ancients almost impossible [for they'd all be cannibals].

Then there is the big, big problem of meshing all the cWoD games into one large one.

Now, it *can* be done, but the wannabe-ST has to do a lot of work on it *and* has to know the core books equally well for each group. To underpower Garou enough so they're not the broken killing machines, to settle the whole Weaver-Wyrm-Wyld metaplot etc.

The main red light for me would be: do you trust the skills and knowledge of this ST to be able to pull off such a thing? I'd class this at at least a difficulty 8 extended roll...

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Honestly, if your ST hasn't been Storytelling these systems since they first came out, the very proposal alone is a red flag. He wants to mix at least 4 different games with wildly different themes, power levels, and even mechanics, to try and make a single game? And from different editions to boot? If he can pull that off and still make it fun and not a headache for his players to deal with, he's a damn Antediluvian himself, and even then he's giving HIMSELF the most massive headache ever.

[Anonymouswizard]

Seek out: Vampire: Translation Guide. It talks in length between converting between VtM and VtR. Don't know if they did similar for Werewolf and Mage. Though interestingly said Guide doesn't mention meshing both together. [At least, don't recall them doing it].

Translation guides for Werewolf, Mage, and Demon (which is relatively weird, they're very different games) exist. None for Promethean, Changeling, Mummy, or any of the others though. Vampire is the best, Werewolf is useful for translating ideas across but I think the section on tribes is lacking, and I just can't wrap my head around the mage one.

Honestly, mixing books doesn't go over well. Really all PCs should be from one book, with the other books being used for supporting characters, sometimes. Even in the nWoD/CoD. Both versions of Mage should be especially careful, a powerful mage can invalidate everyone.

Mixing books is of course better with CoD because everyone runs on the same set of rules (although with the latest edition cross splat balance is no longer a thing), so it's fine to just use Forsaken for your werewolves instead of hacking them together with Disciplines. I'd still recommend one splat for the players though, the books have rather different themes (and rather different settings, although the diverseness of the cosmologies strangely makes them blend better than the oWoD*).

Cross editions, you'll have to work out the rules you're using and homebrew to it. I wish the ST the best of luck, and suggest he tries something simpler like just a CoD crossover.

* It helps that nobody really shares the same bit of the metaphysical realms, bar the mages with everyone, and things like the underworld have been kept mostly consistent. Then you have Mummies, who are older than the setting's cosmology or something. But every splat adds to the base instead of interpreting stuff wildly differently.

[Mr Blobby]

You're right; it's either a) a mesh of the games which will end up falling apart rapidly or b) so many edits and patches the game ends up being 75%+ homebrew. And as I've learned over time, many players *hate* homebrew - I've had complaints about it even when I'd limited it to strict 'critical patch' level...

Also, there is a difference between getting the other critters to work as enemies, and working as PC's.

[fishyfishyfishy]

I can see something like this working if you're exclusively using Chronicles of Darkness 1e or 2e. It's also possible, but a right pain in the ass, to do it with the 20th anniversary editions of the World of Darkness games. If one of these two things is what this person is going for then it will be a lot of work for them but it won't necessarily fall apart.



So one of the local storytellers at my game shop is wanting to try and do a universal WoD game. Right now it is looking like he is going to allow old WoD and New WoD books. I am wondering if anyone has tried to mix the two versions? I am still waiting on some specifics but it looks like we will be mixing Fey, Mage, Werewolf, Vampire and maybe some others. Are there any red flags that I should watch out for?

This however? Terrible idea. It will never work without a massive pile of house rules that I doubt they'll properly keep track of.

[Nerd-o-rama]

"Two versions"

Oh you sweet naive fool.

Really though, I'd ask for a lot more details on what the prospective ST is proposing. The settings and plot can be welded together with some creativity and ideally a tranlation guide, but for mechanics you're dealing with completelt fundamentally different systems that only share superficial similarities. At least ask which dice mechanic you're using.

[SaurOps]

Seek out: Vampire: Translation Guide. It talks in length between converting between VtM and VtR. Don't know if they did similar for Werewolf and Mage. Though interestingly said Guide doesn't mention meshing both together. [At least, don't recall them doing it].

They did, but the results for the Apocalypse/Forsaken conversion left out an awful lot. Actual Rage, for example.



If the ST is doing a full hybrid [and not simply say playing VtM with VtR Covenants or something] the main thing which I'm aware is an issue is Generation - Blood Potency. The former is needed for the whole Antediluvians metaplot and the latter makes the walking Ancients almost impossible [for they'd all be cannibals].

Then there is the big, big problem of meshing all the cWoD games into one large one.

Now, it *can* be done, but the wannabe-ST has to do a lot of work on it *and* has to know the core books equally well for each group. To underpower Garou enough so they're not the broken killing machines

Why even live, without a proper war form? Or, more to the point, why introduce crossover if the prospect of it seems like it would be a huge disruption?



to settle the whole Weaver-Wyrm-Wyld metaplot etc.

That's not a metaplot. It's a central conceit of a game. The metaplot is a series of rolling events that change the game's setting as time goes on.



The main red light for me would be: do you trust the skills and knowledge of this ST to be able to pull off such a thing? I'd class this at at least a difficulty 8 extended roll...

You can't put them all together; it's a task designed to fail. You, at minimum, will have to refuse to definitively answer cosmology questions, which you won't be able to do when you're trying to mesh together Garou and Mages and the Umbra comes into the picture, because the former don't hold that outer space is the spirit world, and their setting writeups support this. The latter, though, are a confused mass of vidares that mess up slices of what other games hold as a much more uniformly-structured spirit world, and outer space past the asteroid belt is a particular point of contention.

[Mr Blobby]

'Broken killing machines'; it's a combination of how cWoD measures damage, the Initiative system, the simple Dex-Brawl mechanic and the fact Crinos Dex bump. Don't mind them being the killing machine part; simply object to them being like this if you're going cross-genre - the ST will need to either dial them back a touch and/or give their 'companions' a little more toughness.

Sometimes, the disruption is worth it. Despite the mutual hate between the groups, I *can* see examples of cross-genre play; from Etherites/Adepts and Glass Walkers taking down a Technocracy lab experimenting on Garou, a Ratkin-Nosferatu 'task group' sent deep underground to take out things worse than they are etc.

I hold that you *can* splice all the different strands of cWoD. But I do agree that a) significant amount will have to go out of the window b) one hell of a job and c) will end up with such a homebrew % it will almost be a new game.

[SaurOps]

'Broken killing machines'; it's a combination of how cWoD measures damage, the Initiative system, the simple Dex-Brawl mechanic and the fact Crinos Dex bump. Don't mind them being the killing machine part; simply object to them being like this if you're going cross-genre - the ST will need to either dial them back a touch and/or give their 'companions' a little more toughness.

Well, if Initiative is a problem, consider making it more like earlier editions and totaling your Wits + Awareness instead of Dexterity + Wits? I doubt that's the lion's share of your problem, but it does exist as an option.



Sometimes, the disruption is worth it. Despite the mutual hate between the groups, I *can* see examples of cross-genre play; from Etherites/Adepts and Glass Walkers taking down a Technocracy lab experimenting on Garou, a Ratkin-Nosferatu 'task group' sent deep underground to take out things worse than they are etc.

1 - how are the Garou telling the difference between the technocrats and technomages?

2 - those poor Nosferatu think that they're used to backstabbing, but wait until they meet a rat pack. They're literally called deceits...



I hold that you *can* splice all the different strands of cWoD. But I do agree that a) significant amount will have to go out of the window b) one hell of a job and c) will end up with such a homebrew % it will almost be a new game.

Not almost. As I said, the games are made to disintegrate on contact with each other. You're then left to fill in the gaps on your own. Just never use the "highest power rating wins" stuff from Vampire, it doesn't make sense in relation to how anyone else's powers work.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It sounds like an unholy mess, no pun intended. Like, you're basically saying "hey, I'm going to run a big D&D mashup game; we'll probably be pulling from AD&D, 4th Edition D&D, Starfinder, Mutants and Masterminds, and d20 Traveler." Ridiculously different... everything. You're probably better off translating all the mechanics into a (reasonably, at least) generic third-party system. The Dresden Files RPG jumps out as my first thought, actually-- the Fate chassis should handle the various supernatural complications pretty well, and this particular version is set up to emphasize the temptation of power, while the game has big sets of specific stunts for a wide variety of supernatural creature types.

[Mr Blobby]

The reasons why said groups would co-operate is up to the ST. It could anything from one group spotting their enemy attacking the other group, one of the NPC's acting as the bridge [such as a Dreamspeaker with a Totem, which also happens to be the local cearns'], a false-flag operation to cause a war backfires and both parties turn on the instigator, a simple lust for knowledge/power/whatever, being dragged into a larger war against their will [let's say in the Hermes - Tremere conflict explodes into a larger war as the Order calls on the Traditions to assist, while Tremere calls on the Camarilla. Before long, you've got shadier Mages talking to the Sabbat, and the Camarilla being approached by the Technocracy].

Not saying they'll be friends, or even that the 'alliance' will hold for the duration of the game - let alone beyond. I'd see it like the Allies of WWII; each side suspicious as hell, with differing goals which at times are against the goals of their allies and on occasion working out ways to screw each over.

I didn't say splicing the games would be easy. And I did explicitly state that a) you'd lose stuff in translation and b) you'd end up with so much homebrew in effect you'd be playing a new game, one which would be full of false friends to trip up players who know 'proper' WoD.

[lightningcat]

I have ran and played in more anything goes oWoD games than anyone should really think about. Just mixing those game lines together is a headache and a half. Throwing in CoD in to that mix is just tossing pure sodium in to pool with your friends. I cannot see anything about it working well.

Now if we step back and use the Transition Guides, a lot of hope, dreams, and homebrewing skill, you could take whatever you like about either system and setting and add in the parts of the other setting that you enjoy. This is not a mixing of systems, but could be made to work. When not working on my main homebrew project, I have actually been taking the CoD system and building a new setting for it. This is a major project and I have not dedicated much time on it and thus have not made it very far, but this is still simpler then mixing oWoD and CoD. I'm not saying it cannot be done, but this will take time and effort. And much playtesting and failure.

May the Triad guide your efforts, you will need the blessings of all three of them.

[Braininthejar2]

The big problem is that the various supernaturals are means for a different style of gameplay.

A character may find himself literally out of his genre - for example a mage can solve most werewolf mystery plots in minutes, but unless he's advanced enough to do permanent buffs and contingencies, he'll be one bad initiative roll away from being smeared all over the walls.

A mixed shapeshifter party could be viable, as would be mixing eastern and western vampires. But beyond that...

Well, a well done mixed party could be extremely powerful through versatility, but that takes practice, and the first attempt is much more likely to produce multiple problems (such as the above mentioned vampire losing the day part of the adventure, while a werewolf might get in possibly lethal trouble just for associating with one)


Imagine trying to make Underworld and Pan's Labirynth into a single movie.