Polymorph Any Object Queston

[Sugashane]

Ok guys, some input would be incredibly helpful.

Scenario -
I have a changeling druid with the Shadow template. He did do the level buyoff already and is level 12, gaining on 13. Through clever gameplay and adhering to busywork/sidemissions for a very powerful mage who is essentially becoming a controller behind the scene, he has been given a reward of just over 8000gp (he requested a banking of gold from each of these ordeals).

So now this player is asking for 2 scrolls of polymorph any object to be cast on him by this elder spellcaster to permanently change him into a War Troll, which would be 6000gp and the remaining 2000gp for his services. This was all well played, he has encountered War Trolls and fought along a small clan of them as they were paid to aid the effort in a major war.

My question is what happens with his template. He did a level buyoff for it, so if it disappears does he just sacrifice the XP loss he accrued for that? Or does it follow him, and he just adds the template to his War Troll form? As his hit dice are going to be above that of a War Troll I have no issues with his plan, but I'm just not sure of the proper way to administer this change. I know he loses the changeling ability to alter his appearance, but I'd like your input on how to work it.

[Anxe]

RAW, most of Shadow template goes along for the ride. PaO is based off of Polymorph which is based off of Alter Self. Alter Self says, "You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form..."

He doesn't keep extraordinary abilities from the template though, so he'll lose the movement speed buff, darkvision, lowlight vision, cold resistance, and anything from the extra list that isn't specifically a supernatural or spell-like ability. While not a hard rule, the default for most abilities is extraordinary, so most of the things on that list are gone.

However, RAW doesn't have to be king. You can do what you want. Starting with more of the abilities with a warning that "the shadows might slowly leave" if the power is too much isn't a bad way to handle it if you're upfront about it. If the shadow power is important enough to him and his character, he can always get the polymorph dispelled and go back to the way he was.

Additionally, I've always been dubious about the use of two PaO spells to permanently turn into something. It says the duration is determined by your original state, which I've always taken to mean the target's natural body no matter what it currently is. If it were me he would have to drink some Intelligence Drain poison to make it permanent. I realize that might have come off as critical, but I intended it as conversational. You should do what's fun for you and your group.
EDIT: Realized I reverse logicked the spell in my head. Is his Intelligence low enough that its not permanent? I figured it was same Kingdom and Class already so you just need another +2 for permanent. You doing an initial one for size?

[Remuko]

RAW, most of Shadow template goes along for the ride. PaO is based off of Polymorph which is based off of Alter Self. Alter Self says, "You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form..."

He doesn't keep extraordinary abilities from the template though, so he'll lose the movement speed buff, darkvision, lowlight vision, cold resistance, and anything from the extra list that isn't specifically a supernatural or spell-like ability. While not a hard rule, the default for most abilities is extraordinary, so most of the things on that list are gone.

However, RAW doesn't have to be king. You can do what you want. Starting with more of the abilities with a warning that "the shadows might slowly leave" if the power is too much isn't a bad way to handle it if you're upfront about it. If the shadow power is important enough to him and his character, he can always get the polymorph dispelled and go back to the way he was.

Additionally, I've always been dubious about the use of two PaO spells to permanently turn into something. It says the duration is determined by your original state, which I've always taken to mean the target's natural body no matter what it currently is. If it were me he would have to drink some Intelligence Drain poison to make it permanent. I realize that might have come off as critical, but I intended it as conversational. You should do what's fun for you and your group.
EDIT: Realized I reverse logicked the spell in my head. Is his Intelligence low enough that its not permanent? I figured it was same Kingdom and Class already so you just need another +2 for permanent. You doing an initial one for size?

I bolded the part where most people differ on the subject. That's why he asked for two. One to turn into it or something similar then a second to turn into it making it permanent. That seems to be how theyre making it work too.

[Sugashane]

That is a solid bit of feedback.

His intelligence is 9 now that I look at it, so he has just barely beat out the intelligence of the average War Troll.

I forgot all about Extraordinary Abilities diminishing, but looking at the template I see Shadow Blend is indeed a supernatural ability. So he will still retain that and the Cause Fear ability, but will lose speed, resistances, fast healing 2, and evasion. The War Troll has superior darkvision and fast healing anyway and other goodies.

Now he does have a permanicied Enlarge Person, but since that is still able to be dispelled I wasn't counting that and assuming it wouldn't count. To be fair though, he has been set like this ever since he found a bracers of armor with cold resistance on it. He did that and just makes himself appear as a fire giant, helping to reduce the damage as some focus on him with cold spells. That was at like 8th level, so he has had that for a while. I might let him have it, or roll a percentile on it.

[RoboEmperor]

My question is what happens with his template. He did a level buyoff for it, so if it disappears does he just sacrifice the XP loss he accrued for that? Or does it follow him, and he just adds the template to his War Troll form? As his hit dice are going to be above that of a War Troll I have no issues with his plan, but I'm just not sure of the proper way to administer this change. I know he loses the changeling ability to alter his appearance, but I'd like your input on how to work it.

1. Permanent Duration is dispellable. So if I cast dispel magic on him, he's gonna turn back into a non-wartroll. Instantaneous Duration is what you are looking for and that can only be achieved by Wish spell per Savage Species, or Epic Spells.
2. Because his War Troll form is actually a fake form, his real form exists somewhere, aging. So the shadow template never disappears.
3. In anycase, no template transferring. Use Polymorph rules to find out what he keeps and what he loses.
4. It is well within RAW, where if the 1st PaO loses its duration, it disappears, making the 2nd PaO adjust its duration based on the new target, the original form, so a DM is well within his rights saying casting PaO twice doesn't do anything.

edit:
5. The Permanencied Enlarge Person will not be removed, however it will not enlarge him.


One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. For example, if a wizard is using a shapechange spell to take the shape of an eagle, a polymorph spell could change her into a goldfish. The shapechange spell is not negated, however, and since the polymorph spell has no effect on the recipient’s special abilities, the wizard could use the shapechange effect to take any form the spell allows whenever she desires. If a creature using a shapechange effect becomes petrified by a flesh to stone spell, however, it turns into a mindless, inert statue, and the shapechange effect cannot help it escape.

monstrous humanoid =/= humanoid.

[Fouredged Sword]

He will keep his template the same way he would keep his natural form. Polymorph does not actually turn you into something else, it is like a magical slip cover over your shape. He will always be a Dark Changling polymorphed into a war troll. At no point does he actually change into a war troll, he just has the shape and many of the benefits of being a war troll.

Changing your actual race requires something weird like reincarnation.

[Sugashane]

He will keep his template the same way he would keep his natural form. Polymorph does not actually turn you into something else, it is like a magical slip cover over your shape. He will always be a Dark Changling polymorphed into a war troll. At no point does he actually change into a war troll, he just has the shape and many of the benefits of being a war troll.

Changing your actual race requires something weird like reincarnation.

So basically he will retain the benefits of not only the template but his Changeling abilities like his Minor Shapechange ability, while getting the bonuses and abilities of a War Troll until dispelled. So this means while he wild shapes, he will take the form of the normal creature and then will revert to his War Troll form when that wears off/is dismissed.

With the template being carried over, would any physical bonuses carry over with this or Wild Shape? Like if a Druid read a Manual of Gainful Exercise +4, would that +4 bonus be added to these other forms too? Or just the form read in?

[Beheld]

So basically he will retain the benefits of not only the template but his Changeling abilities like his Minor Shapechange ability, while getting the bonuses and abilities of a War Troll until dispelled. So this means while he wild shapes, he will take the form of the normal creature and then will revert to his War Troll form when that wears off/is dismissed.

With the template being carried over, would any physical bonuses carry over with this or Wild Shape? Like if a Druid read a Manual of Gainful Exercise +4, would that +4 bonus be added to these other forms too? Or just the form read in?

The template isn't carried over.

You can make up whatever houserule you want about inherent bonuses, but there really isn't a clear RAW. But the template, again, isn't carried over, it's still attached to his regular form, and he loses most or all of it when polymorphed.

[Fouredged Sword]

The template isn't carried over.

You can make up whatever houserule you want about inherent bonuses, but there really isn't a clear RAW. But the template, again, isn't carried over, it's still attached to his regular form, and he loses most or all of it when polymorphed.

He loses only the specific thing that Polymorph states he loses. NOTHING ELSE. The template is still there, it is just covered over by a permanent magical effect. Some of the features will be disabled, but if you had a spell that "detect dark creature" he would trigger it.

Write out his character sheet, read polymorph and polymorph any object carefully, and then replace exactly the things it tells you to replace, nothing more, nothing less.

He is not a wartroll. He is a dark changling POAed into a wartroll. There is a mechanical and IC difference.

[Beheld]

He loses only the specific thing that Polymorph states he loses. NOTHING ELSE. The template is still there, it is just covered over by a permanent magical effect. Some of the features will be disabled, but if you had a spell that "detect dark creature" he would trigger it.

Write out his character sheet, read polymorph and polymorph any object carefully, and then replace exactly the things it tells you to replace, nothing more, nothing less.

He is not a wartroll. He is a dark changling POAed into a wartroll. There is a mechanical and IC difference.

Yes, I know, that is why I said that. I just also know the features of the dark template, and how polymorph takes away most of them.