Starfinder is pretty Cool. AMA. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Steampunkette

2017-08-10, 08:25 AM

Ooh ooh ooh

I'm curious, because I want Starfinder, but I know there are some system changes from Pathfinder. In your opinion, how easily compatible are the two?

Moderately! You could probably use a Pathfinder Monster to fight a Starfinder Character with relative ease. But a fighter isn't going to match up against a soldier terribly well. The Soldier's weapons are going to seem ridiculous by comparison. Rather than having a ton of progressively worse attacks, everyone gets 1 normal attack, or 2 or more attacks in a Full Attack action, with all the attacks taking a -4 penalty. So the weapon's damage itself scales as you gain levels.

A level 1 pistol might do a d6. But by the time you grab a level 16 pistol it'll be flinging 12d6.

Hm...

1) Ok, did I understand the previews right and there´ sonly two "caster classes" and no "partial casters"?

2) Spells and spell lists. Do both classes have separate lists? How about the archetypical "broken" spells, are things like Planar Binding, Gate and Wish still in?

The two Caster Classes are Mystic and Technomancer. Neither is Arcane, Divine, or Psionic. Magic is just Magic in this game system. If you wanna make a Psychic Mystic feel free, you wanna make a Divine Technomancer? Go right ahead.

Wish and Miracle don't exist as spells. Instead they're level 20 class abilities of the Mystic and Technomancer. They cost 2 Resolve and 2 6th level spell slots to cast.

The spell lists are separate, but with some overlap on spells like Flight, which exists as a different spell at different levels... Essentially Flight is Featherfall, Levitate, and Flight depending on what level you cast it at.

Psyren

2017-08-10, 08:36 AM

1) Are the actions still Move Swift Immediate Standard?
2) What action is the "Full-Attack?"

Steampunkette

2017-08-10, 08:54 AM

1) Are the actions still Move Swift Immediate Standard?
2) What action is the "Full-Attack?"

Standard, Move, Swift, Reaction.

Standard and Move are the same as in Pathfinder. Swift covers both Swift and Immediate actions you can take on your turn. Reactions are attacks of opportunity or other actions you can take when it's not your turn.

Full Attack is a Full Round Action. You can make a 5ft adjustment, but other than that you're stuck swinging or firing shots.

The system relies on the movement/attack breakdown (Particularly Spring Attack) to ensure people don't hang out in cover for the whole fight, shooting from behind objects. So you still have to move then attack or attack and then move outside of the feat.

Serafina

2017-08-10, 09:01 AM

1) Are the actions still Move Swift Immediate Standard?
2) What action is the "Full-Attack?"It's Standard Action and Move action and Swift Action OR a Full Action. Standard can be downgraded to Move or Swift, Move can be downgraded to Swift as well.
You also get one Reaction per round, which replace Immediate Actions. That includes Attacks of Opportunity, and there is no equivalent to Combat Reflexes.

The Full Attack is a Full action, thus consuming all your actions but your Reaction.
It can not be used with a lot of weapons (some melee weapons, basically all area-weapons), gives a -4 penalty to attacks (and there are very few attack-boosting effects in the game), and only allows two attacks. However, the Solarian eventually gets three attacks with full melee attacks, the Operative can get up to four melee attacks, and the Soldier can learn to move as part of a full attack.

While keeping the full attack improvements for melee might seem especially silly, a 5-foot step is now also a move action and the Step Up feat allows you to follow them as a Reaction, with Step up and Strike allowing an attack of opportunity and 10 foot movement instead.
The Withdraw-action is a full action as well, and while it allows you to move double your speed without provoking from one enemy, they can just follow up with a Charge (also a full action). The Operative also gains a higher movement speed, and the Solarian gets some easy access to alternate movement modes.

Steampunkette

2017-08-10, 09:03 AM

One Freebie without being asked:

Every Class has a boatload of customization. Soldiers pick their specializations which grant different class abilities as they level. Mechanics choose drone or exocortex but also get to customize drones and get mechanic tricks from a list. Operatives get exploits, Technomancers get Magic Hacks... the list goes on.

So you could easily have two operatives in a team and have them feel COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Even down to how they handle fighting. An Operative can do a Trick Attack as a full round action by using a skill to make an enemy susceptible to the trick (And the different Operative Specializations get to use different skills like Computers, Sense Motive, Survival, or Acrobatics). Tricks deal extra d4s of damage at first but quickly scale to d8s and by level 20 you're doing 10d8 Trick Attack Damage...

Or if you prefer to be a two-guns blazing Operative you can grab a couple of pistols and use the classes 4 (FREAKING FOUR THAT IS NOT A TYPO THEY GET THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF ATTACKS IN THE GAME) and just blast your target, repeatedly, with more bullets instead of a single well placed bullet.

Also: A Correction about my earlier 12d6 statement: The biggest pistols are 5d12, 8d4, and similar values. They never get more than 8 dice. But 5d12 with 4 attacks or 5d12+10d8 once per turn... you choose.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-08-10, 09:21 AM

Alright, three quick questions from someone who only has a vague idea of what Starfinder is (Spelljammer+Pathfinder).

1. Looking at those damage values Steampunkette describes...how are typical HP values compared to, say, Pathfinder? Those look like they have a decent chance of killing low-level characters/monsters in a single shot. That would give low levels a massively different tone than typical D&D-ey fare, and those have plenty of potential lethality...
2. What kind of sci-fi is Starfinder closest to?
3. How much homebrew would you need to make it fit other kinds?

Ninjaxenomorph

2017-08-10, 09:35 AM

I saw that races now have HP; how exactly does the HP/Stamina system work?

Buufreak

2017-08-10, 09:53 AM

(Spelljammer+Pathfinder)

WOAH! That's a thing? Alright, buying me yet another book!

jesterjeff

2017-08-10, 10:11 AM

You get hp for race and class at 1st lvl. At 1st and beyond you get stamina which is a set total plus con mod. You loose stamina, which is energy. When you run out of stamina you take hp damage. Hp damage represents actual damage, illness, or injury. You get resolve points equal to 1/2 lvl + primary class ability. Spend those to use class abilities and reset stamina.

Anonymouswizard

2017-08-10, 10:24 AM

A level 1 pistol might do a d6. But by the time you grab a level 16 pistol it'll be flinging 12d6.

Is that weapons come in different levels, or that a level 16 character deals more damage with a pistol than a level 1 character? It sounds like the former, I'll likely change to the latter if I run this.

Secondly, I'm interested enough in Starfinder to check it out at some point, but I'm worried about something. So far people have been focusing on the FANTASY elements of this Science Fantasy system that I see before me, I want to know more about the SCIENCE.

1) I assume this is 'technology with magic' rather than Spelljammer's 'magic in space'?

2) How do starships work? Is it a case of you blast off from a planet with your rockets, engage the magitech FTL drive, and then use your rockets to help land on another planet? Are we just using spells to teleport from one planet to another? Are ships essentially Spelljammers with the serial numbers filed off?

3) How does hacking work? I've heard it brought up a couple of times, with both the mechanic and the Technomancer (who 'hacks spells' apparently), but is there a system for it?

4) Robots and AI, how are they treated? Are the AIs low AI or high AI? Are AI sentient?

Ninjaxenomorph

2017-08-10, 10:36 AM

I heard spaceship combat is a not-insignificant part of them game, have you looked at it?

Ellrin

2017-08-10, 10:39 AM

How easily backwards compatible with PF (or even 3.5) do you think the classes might be?

Florian

2017-08-10, 10:47 AM

Serafina

2017-08-10, 11:01 AM

On weapons:
The game is very very gear-dependent. A level 1 laser rifle does 1D6 damage and costs 425 credits, a level 20 laser rifle does 11D6 damage (and also has higher range and clip) and costs 722000 credits. The same goes for armor (with armor class).

I'm personally not the biggest fan of it, for a variety of reasons (wealth is way too important for character power, it's the same weapons over and over again just with more damage, it makes eclectic weapon collectors way too weak etc.)

But I imagine it would be pretty easy to just houserule that all away. Weapons and armor just get better when you level up, without needing any wealth to be spent on the upgrades. If you're Xth level, your weapons and armor function as Xth-level items of their type, or the next-lowest equivalent. That leaves wealth as a factor for stuff like power armor, armor and weapon upgrades, augmentations, and other gear. Obviously, WBL can be radically reduced that way - but it's also much less of a power-to-wealth ratio, so it's much easier for the GM to handle.

For an explanation of how that works, it's very easy to just go with "higher level characters do more damage since they're better with their weapons".
But you can also throw in stuff like your characters having better maintenance to keep their gear in better shape, knowing all the tricks on how to get the most out of a weapon, or even semi-magical stuff like channeling miniscule amounts of magical power in just the right way into the weapon.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-08-10, 11:17 AM

The leveling-gear stuff sounds a lot like the magic items of 3.5, only without the explicit magic. It should be interesting to see how that changes things...is there a Starfinder SRD, or will there be one soonish?

Anonymouswizard

2017-08-10, 11:20 AM

@Anonymouswizard:

Androids, Robots and AI already got a good treatment in PF (Iron Gods, Technology Guide). Androids are a standard player race and the Security Robot (First Contact) seems very similar to what´s already been published.

That's not quite what I mean. I'm talking about, are androids and robots considered the same thing? The same for robots and AI. What's the difference between a sentient and nonsentient AI? If I download an AI to two separate bodies, are they different beings? If so, can an AI store backups in case it's body gets destroyed? What about transferring it's data to another body once it's destroyed? Stuff like that.

Oh, and are AI available as PCs?

Ellrin

2017-08-10, 11:28 AM

What's the difference between a sentient and nonsentient AI?

Do you mean sapient and nonsapient, or do you actually just mean whether they're capable of perception?

Anonymouswizard

2017-08-10, 11:31 AM

Do you mean sapient and nonsapient, or do you actually just mean whether they're capable of perception?

Yes, sorry, mentally exhausted today for some reason.

Steampunkette

2017-08-10, 11:55 AM

I'm at work and on my cell phone so I can't respond too deeply for the next 6 hours or so. But Starfinder is closest in tone and style to Farscape and Star Wars.

As for ship combat, it is involved and tactical.

Thealtruistorc

2017-08-10, 12:34 PM

Okay, confession time, everyone.

Me and some of the other developers on this forum recieved developer editions of Starfinder in late June, so we've had the game for quite a while and have been making content for it. By the the end of the month, there will be a sequel to Arcforge available that contains content for Starfinder as well as a Path/Starfinder crossover adventure I'll be deploying at this year's Geek Kon.

Hence, I feel that I can answer some of the questions on here.

The leveling-gear stuff sounds a lot like the magic items of 3.5, only without the explicit magic. It should be interesting to see how that changes things...is there a Starfinder SRD, or will there be one soonish?

The description of the gear is a bit misleading. Every item has multiple variations across levels, such as plasma rifles which have varying levels of power and are suggested for characters of different levels.
Just a note that WBL scales differently than in Pathfinder, with players getting much less up until 7th level or so and then getting much more at higher levels.

How easily backwards compatible with PF (or even 3.5) do you think the classes might be?

From what I've seen, the classes require a bit of conversion work but could be made to operate in the pathfinder ruleset with a few adjustments. The altered full attack rules means that each class has abiliities with a great deal of damage scaling (I mean literally all of them have a class feature which adds their BAB to all damage rolls), so changes are needed to put them in line with pathfinder classes. Some classes such as the soldier and solarian rely on certain rules alterations or changed ability expectations to power their class features, so that needs tweaking. We at TPK Games are currently writing a supplement to address this exact issue.

I heard spaceship combat is a not-insignificant part of them game, have you looked at it?

I did more than look into it, I wrote an entire supplement on it.

Spaceship combat feels inspired by Artemis Bridge Simulator. By the core rulebook, it is almost entirely separated from land combat, so how much it is implemented is entirely up to the GM. Starship fighting is a lot of fun on its own, but is rather constrained (as in players can't do anything that they saw in Tartakovsky cartoons and on top of that aren't allowed to teleport between ships). The emphasis seems to be on simplicity and fluidity, which is admirable but may not suit some players (hence why I created a supplement)

Also, starships can be brought into player-scale combat but are quite powerful when they are. Even the weakest possible starship is going to be a CR 11 threat at minimum, and some of the stronger ones they have in the book (not just TO, but in the books) have enough firepower to one-shot the tarrasque.

mystic is the divine caster, 1st through 6th, with a set of connections to give divine domainish abilities. The technomancer is a 1st-6th arcane caster who hacks spells and can summon tech. The Technomancer can burn two 6th lvl spell slots to cast a wish. The Mechanic is a hard science version of summoner, either you craft drones or create an AI that piggybacks your brain and gives hacker powers. The Solarion is a sun worshiping warrior who can either create stellar or singularity weapon or armor and has warlock invocation-like star powers.
For the normies, the soldier has lots of options including a magic rune weapon/armor user. The Operative is a sweet ass sci-fi rogue, and the envoy is a militant bard/noble.
the rules to upgrade pathfinder classes are a bit vague and left up to the DMs. Pretty much give them a hp/stamina upgrade, light and or heavy armor, swap out skills, and swap or delete pathfinder spells for starfinder spells or re-scale spell damage.

This description is also kinda misleading. Different types of magic do not exist in starfinder, so mystics and technomancers can be flavored as either arcane, divine, or psychic without mechanic changes. Envoy is a radical redesign of the 3.5 marshal class, and can be a lot of fun, but sadly has limited options in most situations. Operative is a reboot of the 3.5 scout, with plenty of influence from shadowrun, but has some arbitrary restrictions which I find annoying. Mechanics are nowhere near as powerful as summoners (their companions can only take one action per round until higher levels), but have some fun utility and reward creative use of your toolset. Solarian is pretty accurately summed up as a combat warlock done right, and Soldier is the fighter that we all wanted.

Some other major changes I've noticed which nobody has pointed out:
-Evocation spells no longer scale in damage as people level up. Revised Fireballs (I can't be bothered to look up their actual name) do 9d6 damage regardless of who is using them
-Five-Foot-Steps are now a move action
-Combat reflexes no longer exists, but neither do dodge, point-blank shot, and precise shot. Feat prerequisites are typically much easier to meet.

Florian

2017-08-10, 01:42 PM

That's not quite what I mean. I'm talking about, are androids and robots considered the same thing? The same for robots and AI. What's the difference between a sentient and nonsentient AI? If I download an AI to two separate bodies, are they different beings? If so, can an AI store backups in case it's body gets destroyed? What about transferring it's data to another body once it's destroyed? Stuff like that.

Oh, and are AI available as PCs?

- Androids are artificially engineered humanoids, flesh nano-tech, capacity for empathy, soul and all.
- Robots are intelligent constructs with the Robot subtype. Not capable of forming a personality when not given one for special purposes. Able to learn, but not able to change.
- AI differ vastly from what you can expect from hard science or transhuman sources. They are, in short, artificial gods.

Serafina

2017-08-10, 02:38 PM

A really nice thing about Spaceships:
Their progression isn't tied to character wealth at all. They do have a cost, but that's just for figuring out what's appropriate for an encounter and the PCs starship based on their level. It's not money (that you could spend on other things), and most importantly you never lose anything from refitting or replacing your ship.

As for how you actually build a ship:
First, you pick a hull. There's 14 categories, ranging from Tiny (by spaceship sizes, of course) Fighters over Medium Transports to Huge Cruisers and Colossal Dreadnoughts.
You then have to put in a Power Core (some ships can have multiple ones, and it provides the power for the other systems), Thrusters (which determine your speed and maneuverability) and Drift Engine (smaller ships can have faster ones, but the smallest ones can't power the best ones. It's also technically optional.)
You can also add armor (which improves your AC, but makes it harder to turn and evade missiles), improved computers (which can add circumstance bonuses to checks), Defensive Countermeasures (which defend against missiles) and of course Shields (which provide ablative HP that must be distrubuted across four arcs)
Weapons must be put into weapon racks, which come with the hull but ships can also be upgraded to carry more. They come in light, heavy (which can only be put on medium and larger ships) and capital size (which can only be put on huge or larger ships, and can't target tiny and small targets), as well as direct-fire and tracking (=missile) varieties.
Then, each ship that isn't a tiny fighter has expansion bays, which can hold everything from extra power cores over laboratories to hangar bays, and also serve as cago bays.

Thanks to the upgrades, you can make even a medium hull really nasty. Players are usually not going to have anything bigger than a large (Destroyer or Heavy Freighter) hull, since everything else needs too much crew to function

If you wanted to max one out, you could pick a Transport hull (a medium-sized ship, costing 15 Build Points) and use that for basically the entire game.
You could max out all it's weapon slots and make them heavy - giving you three forward, aft, port and starboard weapons, as well as three in a turret - that'd cost 86 BP.

Put in the best possible power core, providing 300 PCU for 30 BP. Thrusters are always a tradeoff between speed and maneuverability, but a good pilot doesn't need huge maneuverability anyway so let's go with the fastest (just 6 BP, consuming 80 PCU). The heaviest armor that doesn't make you turn slower costs 45 BP, the best computer costs 200 BP and consumes 55 PCU. The heaviest point defense, 45 PCU and 90 BP, the best Drift Engines cost 60 BP. The best sensors cost 14 BP. The heaviest shields cost 40 BP, and consume 160 PCU.
Obviously, we're down to -40 PCU at this point, and we still have 15 weapons to power. But we can put an extra power core into an expansiob bay, providing 300 PCU more for 40 BP - and you can do that twice, putting us back at 560 PCU.

That's easily enough to put the most power-consuming weapon into every mount.
For the front arc, you could go with a triple long-range particle gun, consuming 120 PCU and 85 BP.
For the broadsides, each gets a heavy missile launcher (total 30 PCU and 24 BP), a tractor beam (80 PCU and 60 BP) and laser point defense (30 PCU, 24 BP).
The aft-arc gets a nice, balanced twin-linked plasma cannon (60 PCU and 50 BP) and another point defense (15 PCU, 12 BP).
And the turret a triple-linked heavy laser array to chase off fighters (45 PCU and 35 BP)

In total, this ship would cost 935 BP - and you'd only get 900 at 19th level, 1000 at 20th. The best cost-saving measure is the computer, by the way.
It should be really strong in combat, and everything but the front-arc has as much firepower as a stock battleship.
And this can easily be a starting ship that you upgraded again and again and again, until it's one of the best in the galaxy, Millenium Falcon style.

Florian

2017-08-10, 02:42 PM

@Serafina:

How do the ship combat rules hold up against the navy combat rules from Skulls & Shackles, both single and fleet?

If you can compare them, how do the ship construction rules compared to Rogue Trader or MGT Traveller?

Steampunkette

2017-08-10, 06:34 PM

Okay. I'm home! So. Let's talk about hit points, stamina, and resolve.

You have very few HP. Your race gives you 2-6 hit points and your class gives you a further 5-7. When you hit 0hp you hit the floor and start bleeding out.

However, your class gives you a further 5-7 Stamina points, plus constitution modifier, each level. And stamina is where the real ebb and flow of combat goes.

Sure, Mystics and Envoys can throw out stamina and hit point healing through their abilities, but some classes also allow you to recover stamina in the middle of a fight by expending part of your turn and a Resolve point.

You have a number of Resolve Points equal to 1/2 character level (Minimum 1) + Key Ability Mod of your Class with a minimum of 1 Resolve Point. During a 10 minute short rest you can expend 1 Resolve to recover all of your missing Stamina Points.

However, some Class Features (Like many of the Envoy's buffing and debuffing abilities) allow you to expend Resolve to improve their effects (Or in some cases require you to use Resolve to activate the ability, at all).

So you don't have a ton of HP, but between HP -and- Stamina you're going to start out with Fighter or even Barbarian levels of resilience, overall. And the damage of pretty much every weapon under level 5 is 1d12 maximum. At level 1 you're pretty much stuck wielding 1d6-1d8 weapons and so are the enemies.

Steampunkette

2017-08-10, 06:50 PM

Starship Combat:

You've got four sections of ship. Fore, Aft, Port, and Starboard. Each section has it's own shields and the like. You have five (or more) Office positions. Captain, Science Officer, Engineer, Pilot, and Gunner(s).

At the start of the round, you roll initiative for your ship and the enemy ship. The Captain passes out orders during different combat phases. The first phase of which is Movement.

During the Movement Phase, whoever has the highest initiative goes -last-. This gives them the tactical advantage by allowing them to wait until the other ship has declared it's movement and respond to it. Either facing stronger shields toward the enemy who wants to be on the damaged side of you, or chasing down an escaping ship, or flying away from a ship that is chasing you and forcing them to adjust their heading next turn and waste time trying to catch up to you.

Captains can Demand (Intimidate check to grant a +4 bonus to another officer's roll), Encourage (Diplomacy to grant a +2 bonus to another officer's roll), Taunt (Bluff or Intimidate another ship's crew into having a -2 penalty to their rolls), Give Orders (Spend a Resolve to give another Officer an extra action), or Offer a Rousing Speech (Spend a Resolve to allow allies to roll twice on any starship rolls and take the better of the two results).

Science Officers can Balance out the shield (Rerouting Power to heal some shields at the cost of others), Scan enemy ships (to gather information about their status), Target Systems (Directing Critical Hit damage to specific parts of the enemy ship), Lock On (Granting ally gunners a +2 to hit a single enemy), and Improve Countermeasures (Making it harder for an enemy to attack your ship in turn).

Gunners can shoot things.

Pilots can use a bunch of different maneuvers to shift the battle around and put themselves and their crew into some pretty advantageous positions!

Engineers can Divert Power (Which gives the ship a +2 speed, or more shields, or make the weapons do more damage), Hold it Together (To keep malfunctioning or damaged systems functioning), Patch (Fix damaged systems), Overpower (Like Divert, but you can do multiple systems at once), and Quick Fix (Fixing damaged systems faster than Patch).

So you get your Pilot and your Science Officer acting during the Helm Phase (Ship and Missile movement phase) and your Engineer and Gunners acting in the Engineering and Gunnery phases, respectively. The Captain can do her stuff in any phase. Once everyone's had their turns, the next round starts with an initiative check.

RedWarlock

2017-08-10, 08:38 PM

What's the material say about the multitude of PF races? Where did they go? Is there a conversion guide, and what do they have in the base rules aside from humans from old Golarian?

Sayt

2017-08-10, 10:56 PM

What's the material say about the multitude of PF races? Where did they go? Is there a conversion guide, and what do they have in the base rules aside from humans from old Golarian?

There's is a chapter with the PF core races updated to SF in the SFCRB, from what I understand, but others have not yet been ported.

Serafina

2017-08-10, 11:25 PM

Just to be clear, your hitpoints aren't actually that low. You DO get extra hitpoints with each level - that'll only be between 5 HP (Technomancer) and 7 HP (Solarian or Soldier) depending on your class, with no increase from Constitution or other ways to increase them.
Well, apparently temporary hitpoints can also shield against hitpoint damage, but in most cases they'll be substracted first, even before stamina points, so they're not a reliable way to increase your HP.

So the most HP you could ever have would be by picking up a high-HP race (though the range is only 2 to 6, with 4 being for medium-sized non-con-increase races) and being a 20th-level Solarian or Soldier, for 146 HP.

You will get your Constitution modifier to your stamina points (and Toughness is still a thing), with classes granting the same amount of Stamina as they do Hitpoints.

There really seems to be no effect that bypasses Stamina and deals hitpoint damage right away. Not with critical hits, bleeding, burning, spells or anything like it.

So really, what the Stamina/Hit Point split means is that most of your health can be recovered by either sleeping eight hours, or resting 10 minutes and spending a resolve point (of which you have half your level + one ability score modifier, which can be increased by feats and such). It's not a lethality increase (in fact, a Starfinder character should end up with more total health), and instead a way to let people heal much faster on their own without magical healing.

As for Pathfinder, there's a short chapter on conversion at the end of the book. It also includes a section on the core PF races (Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Halflings), with updated racial abilities and of course a short section on what the race is now doing.

And one last thing: Ability Scores.
They're calculated differently now.

Specifically, you start with 10 in every stat, then add your modifiers from race, then from your theme, and then spread 10 points as you wish with a maximum of 18 at character creation.
You also get to increase four different scores at level 5, 10, 15 and 20. The increase is a +2 if your current score is 16 or lower, otherwise it's +1.

Overall, this has several effects.
First, race matters much less if you want optimized ability scores. You can have a super-charismatic Android if you want - just put in all your 10 points to increase your Charisma from 8 to 18.
Second, it does interesting things to the value of maximized abilit scores. Getting an 18 isn't significantly more expensive than a 16 - it's just points more. But it gets interesting with increases.

If you start out with an 18, you'll go 18->19->20->21->22. That's the maximum you can get (well, and another +6 from a personal upgrade), but it costs you quite a few points in other scores.
If you start with 16, you'll go 16->18->19->20, and then put the last increase somewhere else since there's no point to a 21. That means you'll have three or four extra points in anothe ability score.
Or you could go 15->17->18, and then either spend two more increases to go to 20, or stick them someplace else.

Suppose your character really wants Intelligence, but also wants Dexterity and Constitution, and won't mind Strength and Wisdom.
You start out with +2 to Int and Dex, and -2 to Strength. You also pick a Theme that increases your Constitution. You then spend your 10 points to go Strength 8, Dexterity 16, Constitution 13, Intelligence 16, Wisdom 10 and Charisma 10.
Your first increase gives you Strength 10, Dexterity 18, Constitution 15, Intelligence 18.
Your second gives you Strength 12, Constitution 17, Intelligence 19 and Wisdom 12.
Your third goes Strength 14, Dexterity 19, Constitution 17, and Intelligence 20.
Your last one goes Strength 16, Dexterity 20, Constitution 18 and Wisdom 14 (with Intelligence 20, and Charisma 10).

Of course, there's a bunch of other ways to do this. At any rate, it's some interesting new variety.

Steampunkette

2017-08-11, 04:23 AM

Serafina's got the right of it, top-down and across the center. Listen to her for she is wise!

As to the other PF races not listed in the book: You could homebrew-port them pretty quickly using the guidelines provided in the book. There are some differences, but really they're not -that- big a gulf.

Serafina

2017-08-11, 05:50 AM

So unless anyone minds, I'll be posting some builds/character ideas/neat tricks here on occasion, because why not?

First, an Operative Jack-of-All Trades.
Operatives are really fun. They are only proficient with basic melee weapons, small arms and sniper rifles, but they get Trick attack (which is a combined move and attack that deals extra damage and gets rider-effects), can make up to four melee attacks at once later on, and get a bunch of cool tricks - some of which they even get 5 levels earlier depending on their specialization!
Oh, and they get +1 to all skills and Initiative, which scales up to +6, and will be vital to this character.

Now, the Operative already gets 8+Int skill ranks per level, and they have every skill in the game as a class skill - so why go for a build that has lots of untrained skills?
But there's 20 skills in the game - Acrobatics, Athletics, Bluff, Computers, Culture, Diplomacy, Disguise, Engineering, Intimidate, Life Science, Medicine, Mysticism, Perception, Physical Science, Piloting, Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth and Survival - so even with that amount of skill ranks, it's not possible to have everything fully trained. (Also, Profession is the only skill that's still subdivided into a bunch of separate ones).

And there's an Operative Exploit called Jack of All Trades.
It doubles your Operative's Edge (the +1++ to skills) on skills that you don't have ranks in, and lets you use them untrained.
And this just goes really really well with the Spacefarer-Theme. At 6th level, it gives you a +2 bonus in all untrained skills, and later on tha turns into a +4 if you roll a natural 20.

With this, a 7th-level Operative can effectively have at least +8 in every skill, compared to having +10 in a trained skill.
At 2nd leve, when you get your first exploit, this'd be still a +2. And it'll scale all the way up to +14 at 19th level.

So, here's Cesca, Shireen Science-Operative:
Race: Shireen (+2 to Culture and Diplomacy, Blindsense, Limited Telepathy, Communalism)
Ability Scores: Strength 12, Dexterity 18, Constitution 14, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 15, Charisma 10
Theme: Spacefarer (Theme Knowledge, Eager Dabbler)
Class: Operative 7 (Explorer)
Operative Exploits: Ever Vigilant (always act during surprise, no perception-penalties while asleep), Jack of All Trades, Alien Archive (double bonus on identifying creatures), Bleeding Shot (Trick-attacks deal (level) bleed damage)
Skills: Full Ranks in Culture, Computer, Engineering, Life Science, Physical Science, Medicine, Mysticism, Stealth, Survival. +8 (+ability mod) for every other skill)
Feats: Skill Focus (Culture, Survival), Connection Inkling (get two at will 0th-level and one 1/3 levels/day 1st-level Mystic Spell), Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus, Versatile Focus
Spells: Detect Magic, Token Spell, Identify

Obviously, being capable with every skill is already pretty good. But Cescas speciality lies in Knowledge-skills, where she doubles her bonus for identifying creatures.
They're also a great explorer, with innate blind sense, silent communication via short-range telepathy, Detect Magic and great survival-skills.
In combat, they're good at every range, depending on their weapon - sniping, pistol-shooting and melee attacks all work, and the latter deal good damage thanks to +4D8 trick attack that's almost guaranteed to land (with a +22 to the skill, vs. 20+Enemy CR). Trick attacks are also very mobile, and at the next level they'll be able to make three melee attacks on a full attack if that's called for.
During starship combat, they could take both the Engineering or Science officer position. They may not be the best possible person for those due to average Intelligence, but the +3 from Operatives Edge helps a lot.

Anonymouswizard

2017-08-11, 05:52 AM

Steampunkette

2017-08-11, 06:16 AM

What's the fluff content of the book like? Barring stuff like AI, does it lean more towards 'fantasy with spaceships' or 'science fiction' (e.g. is a fuel source specified)? Is there any fluff for how FTL travel works (I assume this is what the Drift Engine is)? If this is closer to science fiction, with a lot of computers and robots and ships using reaction engines then I might buy it, but I'm not interested in 'D&D with guns and spaceships'.

Oooo! Good questions!

It's not so much "Fantasy with Spaceships" in the way Spelljammer was, it's more "Cyberfantasy in Space". Like taking Shadowrun off the ground and into orbit.

The fuel sources are mostly sciency, there's no Magic Engine that Magics the Magic across Magic. Your ship is powered by fuels, electricity, power generators, the whole nine yards.

The Drift is basically "Pseudo-Magic Subspace". Three Pathfinder Gods of machinery networked into Triune, a single deity made up of their personalities, and revealed the existence of a new plane of existence on the order of the Material Plane or Elemental Planes. But the Drift has nothing in it, naturally.

Whenever you engage your Drift Drive and slip into the Drift, you drag some of the plane you're on into it. Every ship does it, regardless of where they started out or where they're going. So there's now small islands of different planes inside the Drift... which means you can wind up fighting -anything- in it. Devils, Angels, Elementals, etc.

So there's definitely magic in the setting. But the magic is a backdrop, with lots of flavor, for the sciency stuff to work with.

jesterjeff

2017-08-11, 08:33 AM

The Drift feels like a combination of the Planescape Limbo and 40k Warp.
I've an idea of a team of technomancers and mechanics attempting to craft a Hyper Drift Drive... The HDD allows a drift ship to jump from Drift space into the planes proper.
At least that was the theory.
No one has heard from the science crew of Kosa station for weeks.
A crew of starfinders are sent to investigate, finds the crew dead or mutated, the station is now a fortress for invading outsiders.
Event Horizon +Doom+an open Hellmouth.

Hunter Noventa

2017-08-11, 08:36 AM

Some other major changes I've noticed which nobody has pointed out:
-Evocation spells no longer scale in damage as people level up. Revised Fireballs (I can't be bothered to look up their actual name) do 9d6 damage regardless of who is using them
-Five-Foot-Steps are now a move action
-Combat reflexes no longer exists, but neither do dodge, point-blank shot, and precise shot. Feat prerequisites are typically much easier to meet.

What's the reasoning behind making 5-foot-steps a move action? Are they trying to eliminate full-attacks?

Does the feat cleanup seem like it might be some kind of testbed for a Pathfinder 2.0?

It sounds really good, though it'll be a bit annoying to play with some of the mechanical disparity between it and regular Pathfinder, since the systems are still very similar.

Also...there are spaceships...but are there giant robots?

Steampunkette

2017-08-11, 09:35 AM

What's the reasoning behind making 5-foot-steps a move action? Are they trying to eliminate full-attacks?

Does the feat cleanup seem like it might be some kind of testbed for a Pathfinder 2.0?

It sounds really good, though it'll be a bit annoying to play with some of the mechanical disparity between it and regular Pathfinder, since the systems are still very similar.

Also...there are spaceships...but are there giant robots?

Giant Robots didn't make it into the release, sadly. But we might see them, soon.

Full attacks have been eliminated. And replaced by Full Attacks. When you perform a Full Attack you can make a 5ft adjustment as part of the action before or after you make your attacks. *Edit* Woops! I was wrong. No move during Full Attack.

The Feat Cleanup is minimal, and seems to mostly focus on changed mechanics. There's still dodge-mobility-spring-attack chains and stuff that, honestly, after 5e dropped I kind of hate. Like... I'm using pistols. I've got to stand still while firing even one shot and move after it (or run up, fire, and stand in the open like a sitting duck)? Ugh. I've already houseruled that Spring Attack won't exist in my game and players can move before, after, and during attack actions.

Florian

2017-08-11, 10:01 AM

The Drift feels like a combination of the Planescape Limbo and 40k Warp.

From what I get, it feels more like some of the planar things that were briefly touched on by Occult Adventures and how the "Great Wheel" model might be wrong. And yes, the Warp, which is cool.
(Especially since I´ve seen a rerun of Event Horizon a short time ago)

Milo v3

2017-08-11, 10:15 AM

From what I get, it feels more like some of the planar things that were briefly touched on by Occult Adventures and how the "Great Wheel" model might be wrong.
Just a note, golarion never used the Great Wheel model.

CharonsHelper

2017-08-11, 10:20 AM

Milo v3

2017-08-11, 10:22 AM

I'm glad to hear that they streamlined starship combat relative to most such games, but it still seems too complex for what in most games will be a rarely used sub-system.

But - I'll have to read the rules themselves before making a final judgment.

My biggest disappointment with Starfinder has actually been that starship combat relies on positioning and facing enough that it's apparently immensely necessary to play it using mini-figures and a grid.

Florian

2017-08-11, 10:25 AM

Just a note, golarion never used the Great Wheel model.

The PF Multiverse is the Great Wheel, cleared up of all the junk and clutter and actually functioning.

CharonsHelper

2017-08-11, 10:31 AM

My biggest disappointment with Starfinder has actually been that starship combat relies on positioning and facing enough that it's apparently immensely necessary to play it using mini-figures and a grid.

The grid doesn't bother me since players will already have one to play the base game, but I'm iffy on the facing and the various other things.

For a games where starship combat isn't the focus, I think that the key should be to keep it super streamlined and move on to the next step.

Not that I've generally seen it done that way in other sci-fi games either.

Doing that pretty well is actually one of the things I'm most proud of in the system I'm working on - but doing so required me to have the rules & fluff make starship boarding the alpha tactic for PCs - pushing play back to the infantry/mecha level quickly.

Anonymouswizard

2017-08-11, 10:55 AM

My biggest disappointment with Starfinder has actually been that starship combat relies on positioning and facing enough that it's apparently immensely necessary to play it using mini-figures and a grid.

Does the system at least use acceleration rather than a top speed? Because I hate it when spaceships are given a 'top speed' when they're supposed to work like real life. It's one of the things I like about Traveller, that the system is set up to use acceleration and almost relative speed (it needs a few easy tweaks).

Steampunkette

2017-08-11, 11:32 AM

Does the system at least use acceleration rather than a top speed? Because I hate it when spaceships are given a 'top speed' when they're supposed to work like real life. It's one of the things I like about Traveller, that the system is set up to use acceleration and almost relative speed (it needs a few easy tweaks).

Any object traveling through space will have a bunch of maximum speeds. Maximum speed relative to reaction time (So that the pilot can maneuver around objects). Maximum speed relative to the ship's secondary/mobility controls (So that when the ship is on autopilot it can still maneuver around obstacles). And an absolute Maximum Speed which is be -vastly- below light speed and based entirely on the mass of the vehicle in question, since increasing the object's speed means adding kinetic energy to it greater than it's total mass, even in a weightless environment, and at some point you will reach a speed beyond which the ship's thrusters cannot provide further kinetic energy, because E=MC2. Every iota of energy added increases the mass of the object being moved.

And that's in addition to the maximum shield speed. After all, space dust at a high enough speed will blow a hole through the thickest of bulkheads and the sturdiest of ablative armors, and any energy shield will have a refresh rate through which such material can pass once relative speed is high enough!

Thealtruistorc

2017-08-11, 12:49 PM

Giant Robots didn't make it into the release, sadly. But we might see them, soon.

Okay, this mentality needs a bit of addressing.

Paizo does not seem too interested in publishing additional content for Starfinder, as indicated by the fact that only one other book beyond the adventure paths is planned at this current time (that being October's Alien Archive). Even some of the core developers are moving over to third parties in order to work on more stuff. Owen K.C. Stephens, the lead designer of Starfinder, seems intent on releasing future products through his third-party group Rogue Genius Games, and I envision that is indicative of where things are going to go from here in Starfinder.

At this point, it seems like third-party developers will be carrying Starfinder pretty heftily, and will likely become a mainstay of the system similar to how Path of War and Spheres of Power have become part of an expanded core for some tables.

The Aforementioned Rogue Genius Games is releasing a book called Starfarer Companion later this month, with updated pathfinder classes and races along with expansions on existing Starfinder systems like computers.

Total Party Kill Games is working on Spell Cards for Starfinder, an adventure that introduces the system, and the expansion for space combat I mentioned earlier. We also have plans for a new campaign setting which will be compatible with both Pathfinder and Starfinder.

Dreamscarred Press is working on something, but is playing their cards very close to their chest.

Florian

2017-08-11, 01:23 PM

@Thealtruisticorc:

Based on experience, you should know that this doesn´t work. Especially the "old" d20 crowd has been trained too well to accept and expect 1pp material, as showcased by the sick RAW mentality.
Piazo´d have to adapt to a similar stance as MGT with Avenger/Comstar in regards to Traveller.

Hunter Noventa

2017-08-11, 01:34 PM

Giant Robots didn't make it into the release, sadly. But we might see them, soon.

Full attacks have been eliminated. And replaced by Full Attacks. When you perform a Full Attack you can make a 5ft adjustment as part of the action before or after you make your attacks. *Edit* Woops! I was wrong. No move during Full Attack.

The Feat Cleanup is minimal, and seems to mostly focus on changed mechanics. There's still dodge-mobility-spring-attack chains and stuff that, honestly, after 5e dropped I kind of hate. Like... I'm using pistols. I've got to stand still while firing even one shot and move after it (or run up, fire, and stand in the open like a sitting duck)? Ugh. I've already houseruled that Spring Attack won't exist in my game and players can move before, after, and during attack actions.

That sounds irritating. Making it almost entirely like Pathfinder, but changing just enough to trip people up if they play both is...kind of dumb.

Serafina

2017-08-11, 01:40 PM

Well, as long as the content gets there and is of good quality, it doesn't matter that much where it'll come from.

And now, a short exposition on the Soldier class
We all know that Fighters are mediocre at best. Mostly because they get too few skill points, and nothing unique at all outside of some archetypes. Even Advanced Weapon Mastery only did so much to address that.
Well, the Soldier basically has none of those problems.
Aside from 4 skill ranks per level, proficiency with every weapon and heavy armor, and a combat feat every two levels, Soldiers also get three unique things:
- Fighting Styles. Those provide a number of unique abilities. You start with one, and get another one at 9th level (though the secondary ones count as your level -8).
- Gear Boosts are gained at 4th level and every 3 thereafter, and while they're less important than Fighting Styles some are still very nice.
- The ability to make three attacks of a full attack with both melee and ranged weapons, as the only class who can do that.

So, on Fighting Styles:
- Arcane Assailant starts by making your weapon magic (until you apply the effect to another one), then you add a free weapon fusion, then you get to ignore some conditions more easily, enhance two weapons, and make an attack that ignores full concealment and all other miss chances.
- Armor Storm makes it so that you always count as having a battleglove (a powerful unarmed weapon) equal to your level, making switch-hitting much less expensive, while you wear heavy or powered armor. Then you get Power Armor Proficiency and an additional (cheaper) armor upgrade, get a bonus to bull rush maneuvers, get extra damage from integrated weapons, and finally you can move your full speed when making a full attack.
- Blitz improves your Initiative and movement speed, then you get to make two attacks or bull rushes at the end of a charge, regain stamina as a move action, prevent enemy movement with your AoOs and finally get a bonus to melee damage the more enemies there are
- Bombard gives you free grenades and makes you better at throwing them, then allows you to add your strength-bonus to a ranged attacks damage (from steadying your weapon), can impede an enemy you hit with a ranged attack, make it harder to avoid your explosions, and knock enemies back.
- Guard makes you more agile in armor, allows you to use your reaction to protect allies, ignore detrimental conditions, get some DR and finally you can use a standard-action to completely shield an ally.
- Hit-and-Run gives you the Opening Volley feat (bonus when you first shoot, then hit someone) and allows you to use it more often, allows you to move half your speed during a full attack, allows you to ignore AoOs, and allows you to attack and provide harrying fire (makes it harder for enemies to hit) at the same time.
- Sharpshoot lets you ignore some cover, improves your ranged full attacks, ignores even more cover and concealment, adds damage to full attacks, and finally allows you to set up a more dangerous attack.

I'm pretty particular to Armor Storm, because the free armor glove is pretty great - always be ready to engage in some melee combat. The other options are pretty good too.
Combining it with Blitz is interesting - if you use heavy armor, you benefit from the improved land speed, and getting improved charge at 13th level is pretty good too. Best of all, you get to bull-rush on a charge and if you push them back 10 feet, damage them as if you had attack them.

CharonsHelper

2017-08-11, 01:50 PM

That sounds irritating. Making it almost entirely like Pathfinder, but changing just enough to trip people up if they play both is...kind of dumb.

Or they're changing the things that they didn't get to with Pathfinder because they needed to keep it backwards compatible with 3.x.

Anonymouswizard

2017-08-11, 02:04 PM

Any object traveling through space will have a bunch of maximum speeds. Maximum speed relative to reaction time (So that the pilot can maneuver around objects). Maximum speed relative to the ship's secondary/mobility controls (So that when the ship is on autopilot it can still maneuver around obstacles). And an absolute Maximum Speed which is be -vastly- below light speed and based entirely on the mass of the vehicle in question, since increasing the object's speed means adding kinetic energy to it greater than it's total mass, even in a weightless environment, and at some point you will reach a speed beyond which the ship's thrusters cannot provide further kinetic energy, because E=MC2. Every iota of energy added increases the mass of the object being moved.

And that's in addition to the maximum shield speed. After all, space dust at a high enough speed will blow a hole through the thickest of bulkheads and the sturdiest of ablative armors, and any energy shield will have a refresh rate through which such material can pass once relative speed is high enough!

True, but if we're using reaction engines rather than some sort of reactionless drive (which I'm fine with having to speeds, they're generally space magic in these settings) then the amount of acceleration you have is more important, due to it being highly unlikely you have enough fuel to accelerate for your entire journey (yes, my Traveler universe uses HEPlaR rather than thrust plates, why do you ask?). Maybe I'm just annoyed because normally large ships are made slow because that's what people expect, rather than allowing players to decide themselves (like dedicating 800 tons of your 2000 ton ship to rocket fuel). Most of the time ships aren't carrying enough fuel for engine limits to come up anyway.

It's really just a difference of likes, I like my science fiction to be hard enough that acceleration won't really take you to your top speed.

Hunter Noventa

2017-08-11, 02:05 PM

Or they're changing the things that they didn't get to with Pathfinder because they needed to keep it backwards compatible with 3.x.

Eh, I don't mean to say it's good or bad I guess really. Just that it's almost certain to trip people up.

CharonsHelper

2017-08-11, 02:26 PM

Eh, I don't mean to say it's good or bad I guess really. Just that it's almost certain to trip people up.

Sure - but the same was true in 3e to 3.5 changes... or 3.5 to Pathfinder changes.

Firest Kathon

2017-08-11, 03:24 PM

- AI differ vastly from what you can expect from hard science or transhuman sources. They are, in short, artificial gods.
You may be confusing the AIs from a certain adventure path (http://paizo.com/pathfinder/adventurePath/ironGods) with the normal AIs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/artificial-intelligence-ai/). AIs are the tech-eqivalent to intelligent magic items (i.e. they make some tech device or robot actually intelligent), their actual power depends mostly on their host. The sample AIs are CR 8 and 12, nowhere near god-level.

Wartex1

2017-08-11, 07:37 PM

What uses are there for the Charisma stat beyond the social skills in Starfinder? From the class previews on the Paizo Blog, it seemed like no one except maybe the Envoy uses it.

Thealtruistorc

2017-08-11, 07:42 PM

What uses are there for the Charisma stat beyond the social skills in Starfinder? From the class previews on the Paizo Blog, it seemed like no one except maybe the Envoy uses it.

Solarian uses charisma to fuel its ability DCs, and Diplomacy is used heavily in ship combat.

Wartex1

2017-08-11, 07:48 PM

Okay, I thought Solarians would use Charisma because that seemed fitting, but my buddies thought it would be Wisdom.

Good to know it's not been completely ignored.

Wartex1

2017-08-11, 09:20 PM

Milo v3

2017-08-11, 09:55 PM

Actually, I have another question.

From the class previews and system information, it seemed that the gap between class power has dramatically decreased so that that no class makes another obsolete anymore. Does that seem to be the case, or are magic users still way ahead of the rest of the pack?

From everything I've heard, Soldier is like fighter in that it has nothing to do outside of stabbing and shooting and apparently the envoy is really bad. But otherwise it seems basically the same as just cutting out the 9th casters in Pathfinder.

Starbuck_II

2017-08-11, 11:22 PM

From everything I've heard, Soldier is like fighter in that it has nothing to do outside of stabbing and shooting and apparently the envoy is really bad. But otherwise it seems basically the same as just cutting out the 9th casters in Pathfinder.

The Envoy is a spell-less bard. With expected results.
Buff everyone attacks, awesome. Not as a skilled as the Operative, bad.
If skill focus wasn't an insight it would be awesomer (since expertise grants same type).
Improvisations are cool effects but spell would be nice too.
inspiring boost: restore stamina in battle
Don't Quit: ally ignore condition
Get 'em/Improved: the Buffing of a bard.

By 6th, you have all the + hit buff abilities. You might want 8th or higher for additional Improvizations though.
But you can multiclass into Operative (The combat Rogue), I guess after.

jesterjeff

2017-08-11, 11:45 PM

An envoy/operative gives you a fully rounded fight bard, but an envoy/mystic gives you the buff/magic of a caster bard.

Serafina

2017-08-12, 12:33 AM

Neither the Envoy nor the Soldier are quite as bad as it might seem.

Yes, the Soldier gets no abilities outside of combat, and that's not ideal.
You still get 4 skill ranks per level, and you get enough bonus combat feats that you can easily take some non-combat ones. You could outright pick up spells with Connection Inkling, Technomantic Dabbler, or (minor/normal/major) Psychic Power (granted, the latter is meh in a lot of ways). Otherwise there's only Skill Focus and Skill Synergy for now, but those are decent-ish options.
So yes, Soldiers are a combat-only class. Except you can still find a niche for out of combat (ideally, a role no one else has picked yet) and be good at that.

The Envoy can actually be pretty decent at combat.
While this goes for any class, it's worth remembering that proficiency with any weapon is just a feat away, and specialization (=level to damage) another feat.
And you can fight very easily if you build your Envoy the right way:
- take Get 'Em. It's a move-action, so you can still attack - and you could just pick an unwieldy weapon with which you couldn't full attack anyway.
- take Clever Attack (and it's prerequisite). It's a standard-action attack that makes the enemy flat-footed (including against itself).
And you've just effectively modified your entire parties attack by +3, which can increase to +4 later. That negates their penalties from full-attacking, or from Deadly Aim, or just makes sure they hit.

Clever Feint/Attack even applies until the end of your next turn, and Improved Get 'EM allows you to grant the bonus as part of a standard-action attack.
That means you can free up your move action next turn, either for moving or for using Not in the Face (-4 to an enemies attack), Quick Despiriting Taunt (somewhat improved Intimidate), Quick Inspiring Boost (which is Resolve-less Stamina healing!), Improved Hurry (grant allies move-actions), Sustained Determination (grant an ally a Resolve point) or just boost yourself with Expert Attack (+Expertise to attack).

Now I'd be perfectly happy if more of those just auto-upgraded, instead of having a improved/quick version that you have to take again. But you can still pick a pretty nice, helpful, and somewhat varied power set for your Envoy.

Steampunkette

2017-08-12, 03:41 AM

The Soldier gets nothing outside of combat: True, but misleading.

Everyone gets a Theme. Everyone also gets a Ship Role. And Soldiers make -excellent- Gunners and pretty great Pilots and fairly awesome Captains if you build them to be leaders.

And thanks to how quickly the stats scale with levels (+2 to 4 stats if they're under 17, +1 if 17 or higher) you can bring your stats up to be pretty great at any task.

And the Envoy might not toss out damage like a beast or anything, but I think they'll work better than people are assuming. Primarily because they seem to be a Resolve-Spending class. More of their abilities rely on expending Resolve to make them stronger, to the point where the class's capstone is actually "If you would spend resolve on an ability, spend 1 less. Minimum 0".

As to Skill Focus being insight: It's probably going to be errata'd. One of the devs (the guy who made Operatives a thing) made the comment that Skill Focus was meant to be an un-named bonus to stack with everything, while Skill Synergy was the Insight Bonus.

Serafina

2017-08-12, 03:50 AM

So here's a fancy Mechanic-thing: The Mecha-Lancer

You can give your drone a riding saddle as one of it's mods, and don't even need to invest into Survival (where riding normally is) for that to work. You can ride a drone of your size, which allows Ysoki (or other small races) to ride a Stealth Drone (which comes with a climb speed and 40 foot land speed) and everyone else to ride a combat drone.
It takes a mod for your drone to pick up weapon proficiency, and it can pick up specialization via a feat.

Personally, I think a melee-focussed Ysoki Mecha-Lancer would be quite hillarious - because you can very easily have a starting Strength of 16 or even 18, if you really want to. It'll cost you 8 or 10 of your 10 starting ability points, but that's pretty alright with how increases work.
At 13th level, you could have a stealth drone with an all-day-long flight speed of 50 feet and is armed with a nice longarm (sadly the stealth drone doesn't have the strength to use more advanced heavy weapons), while you yourself can grab heavy armor and a nice advanced melee weapon. You can overcharge your drones weapon (+2D6 damage, can be +4D6 at 14th level) and your own when you're in melee, and your own powered melee weapon when you're in melee - both at once even, in the same round.

But of course, that works with any race if you take a combat drone, and the combat drone can even use heavy weapons and gains enough strength to be good in melee.
And you can, of course, use ranged weapons on your own and count more on Dexterity, if you like.

That's in addition to all the other Mechanic-things:
- a custom rig that functions as any engineering/hacking kit your require, functions as a computer and communication tool
- the ability to overload technologogical devices and later robots and androids
- remote hacking and control of devices, and a skill bonus to computer and engineering
- a whole bunch of mechanic tricks (one every two levels), including combat hacking, energy shields, small scout bots (in addition to any drone) and more.

khadgar567

2017-08-12, 05:31 AM

Dreamscarred Press is working on something, but is playing their cards very close to their chest.
take a wild guess they are working the ever clasics the psionic system and path of war updates then may be renamed version of archforge bingo i just name their three go to products

Anonymouswizard

2017-08-12, 05:47 AM

Everyone gets a Theme.

While Ship Roles speak for themselves, what's a Theme?

Also, considering the first thing I'm going to do with Starfinder is houserule out class skills (never really liked them*), 4+int skill points should allow the Soldier to excel at one or two out of combat things of his choosing. Especially as it looks like stat points are pretty generous, I can see a Soldier easily getting 5-6 skill points a level, which is almost a third of the skill list. As long as nobody is stuck with 2+int mod skill points I'll be happy.

* They seemed to push classes towards certain concepts, which while it can support a certain feeling is something I dislike.

Sayt

2017-08-12, 05:54 AM

A theme is a little extra "What" to your classes "how". Everyone gets a theme, which are, If I recall corrently (I don't have my CRB yet).

The themes are Ace Pilot, Bounty Hunter, Icon, Mercenary, Outlaw, Priest, Scholar, Spacefarer and Xenoseeker. Each gives an ambility at 1, 6, 12 and 18, and a +1 to an ability.

So you want your soldier to be a holy warrior? Priest theme. You want them to be a celebrity gladiator or a D.Va style live-streamer? Icon theme. A Tzun Szu quoting warrior philosopher? Scholar.

Any theme can be applied to any class.

ElFi

2017-08-12, 08:01 AM

Also, considering the first thing I'm going to do with Starfinder is houserule out class skills (never really liked them*), 4+int skill points should allow the Soldier to excel at one or two out of combat things of his choosing. Especially as it looks like stat points are pretty generous, I can see a Soldier easily getting 5-6 skill points a level, which is almost a third of the skill list. As long as nobody is stuck with 2+int mod skill points I'll be happy.

If I recall correctly, everyone gets at least 4+Int, and everyone except the Mechanic and Soldier (and possibly the Solarian, but it escapes me at the moment) gets at least 6+Int. So while the role of skillmonkey still falls most easily into the lap of the rogue Operative, all (or at least most) classes can get plenty of action on the skill-use side of the system now.

EDIT: Whoops, I overstated that somewhat. Technomancer and Solarian also get 4+Int skillpoints, while Mystics get 6 and Operatives and Envoys get 8. Still avoiding the dreaded 2+Int, though.

jesterjeff

2017-08-12, 08:48 AM

So in the Legacy Races section we get the updated cultures of the primary fantasy races. Halflings are relied upon for their penchant for daring dos. Half orcs have risen as a near stable race in their own right, but have embraced the warrior raider culture. Dwarves are engineers and miners of asteroids, went from the sky citadels of old to flying city sized space citadel. The gnomes have split biologically into to subspecies. The elves feel remorse over the loss of loss of Golarion and moved to Castravel, become isolationists, those that leave home wear masks at all time (feels like they're going full eldar).

Starbuck_II

2017-08-12, 09:03 AM

While Ship Roles speak for themselves, what's a Theme?

Also, considering the first thing I'm going to do with Starfinder is houserule out class skills (never really liked them*), 4+int skill points should allow the Soldier to excel at one or two out of combat things of his choosing. Especially as it looks like stat points are pretty generous, I can see a Soldier easily getting 5-6 skill points a level, which is almost a third of the skill list. As long as nobody is stuck with 2+int mod skill points I'll be happy.

* They seemed to push classes towards certain concepts, which while it can support a certain feeling is something I dislike.

Themes are short hands for your build actually, though they give additional abilities. If you don't take a theme: you get a themeless benefit on page 28.
You choose stat to increase at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, 20. It warns that themeless is weaker.

Themeless:
1st: boost any stat by 1
6th: 1/day, +2 to a skil check
12: 1/day, reroll a skill
18: +1 max resolve

Ace Pilot: only increases dex at 1th, Reduce DC of culture check in certain things, +1 pilot skill
6th: get bonuses when using skills on a ship
12th: reduce pilot penalty
18th: recover resolve when doing certain things

Bounty Hunter:
1st: +1 Con, Reduce DC of culture check in certain things, +1 Survival skill
6th: 1/2 time to use diplomacy, no penalty to follow tracks at full speed
12: Penalty to double speed follow track only -10, double hours hustling without Check
18: 1/day, defeat mark regain 1 resolve, 1/day restore 1 resolve when want.

Icon:
1st: +1 Cha, Choose profession Reduce DC of culture check in certain things, +1 1 check with chosen profession skill, +1 Culture
6th: you get famous/infamous that people start recognizing you. Finding a fan with 2d4 hours, fans give discounts or free service (DM choice), but not goods sadly.
12: Even more recognized, 1d4 hours finding a fan, Auto discount of 10% with fans I guess they can give more?).
18: 2/day, recover 1 resolve when interact with profession through a performance or press conference.

Mercenary:
1st: : +1 Str, Choose profession Reduce DC of culture check in certain things, +1 athletics,
6th: +1 carrying capacity
12: Auto aid another
18: Every three combats recover 1 resolve

Outlaw:
1st: : +1 Dex, Choose profession Reduce DC of culture check in certain things, +1 Sleight of Hand,
6th: Get out of law trouble if pay enough, even respectable people will take bribes from you
12: You can sell stuff anyway, even illegal/too expensive,
18: 2/day, Of plan an heist/idea, perform completion of 1 action toward finishing, recover 1 resolve

Priest:
1st: : +1 Wis, Reduce DC of culture check in certain things, +1 Mysticism,
6th: +2 diplomacy/intimidate with lay followers and lower rank clergy
12: 1/day, cast a 1st level mystic spell as spell-like. Or if in Mystic class: +1 spell/day with 1st level spells instead
18: 2/day, acting relating strongly with dogma recover 1 resolve

Scholar:
1st: : +1 Int, Choose among a few skills, Reduce DC of skill check in certain things, +1 in that skill,
6th: 1/day, reroll skill
12: Research faster, (it says a quarter of time), so even taking 20 to recall knowledge is 5 rounds.
18: 2/day, if speciality field useful, mediate 10 minutes to regain a resolve

Spacefarer:
1st: Physical science dc lower, +1 that skill+1 Con,
6th: +2 skill check if not a class skill
12: Use all skills untrained (even trained only ones), Nat 20's double skill bonus at 6th of +2 to +4.
18: 2/day, in unexplorered place/planet, if spend 10 minute mapping regain resolve.

Xenoseeker:
1st: Life science dc lower, +1 that skill, +1 Cha,
6th: Can spemd 10 minutes trying to converse with a creature (succeed on DC 25 Culture check) to get down basic communication (if don't have language) with those specific creatures. +2 bonus to further basic communication with all of creatures that speak language permanently
12: When meeting a creature that seen your race, they go one step better (unfriendly becomes indifferent).
18: 2/day, in discovering a new species of flora or fauna, recover 1 Resolve

My basic summary.

Ninjaxenomorph

2017-08-12, 09:21 AM

Can we get a skill list?

Starbuck_II

2017-08-12, 10:19 AM

Sure: 20 skills

Acrobatics (dex): Fly/Tumble/Escape artist/balance
Athletics (Str)-Climb/Swim/Jump
Bluff (cha): Feint/Lie/secret code/diversion
Computers (Int)- Craft Computer/Craft or detect Forgery/Destroy or repair Module or System/Detect Fake Shell/Disable or Mod Module/Gain Root Access/Hack System/Access Unsecured System
Culture (Int)- Linguist from pathfinder/Know history
Diplomacy (Cha): change attitude/Gather info
Disguise (Cha)- Change appearance
Engineering (Int)- Access Stability (knowledge engineering effectively)/Arm explosives/Craft tech item/Disable Device/Identify Constructs/Identify technology/repair item
Intimidate (Cha)- Bully/Demoralize
Life Science (Int)- Craft drug, poison, medicine/Craft food or drink/Identify creature/Recall Knowledge
Medicine (Int, basically heal skill)- First aid/Long term care/ Treat deadly wounds/Treat disease/ Treat drugs or poison
Mysticism (Int)- Craft magic device/Disable magic device/ identify spell being cast/identify constructs with magic subtype, dragon, fey, magical beast, outsider, and undead/identify magic itemrecall knowledge/repair magic item
Perception (Wis)- Notice/pierce disguise/search
Physical science (Int)-Craft drug, poison, or medicine/recall knowledge
Piloting (Dex)- Navigate/Pilot Starship/Pilot Vehicle
Profession (Cha, Int, or Wis)- Can't overlap with existing skills (so can't choose scientist, but can choose lab technician since it is less generalized), Profession Vidgamer exist/Earn money/Recall Knowledge
Sense Motive (Wis)- Detect Deception/Discern Secret Message/Sense Mental effect
Sleight of Hand (Dex)- Entertain/Hide Object/Palm object/Pick Pocket
Stealth (Dex)- Hide/Invisible bonus/Sniping
Survival (Wis)- Endure weather/Follow track/Handle Animal/Live off Land/Orienteering/Predict Weather/Rear a Wild Animal/Ride

Survival has the most combined skills: is handle animal/Survival/Predict weather/Ride at same time.
While Computer has the most things it can do.

Steampunkette

2017-08-12, 10:51 AM

Have you ever played Wildstar? Themes are like that.

When you make a Wildstar character, you choose a "Path". The Soldier, the Explorer, the Scientist, and the Settler. Soldiers get extra combat missions, test out experimental weapons, and things like that. While Explorers explore the area, Settlers create amenities and repair damaged structures, and Scientists use a Scan Drone to check out interesting phenomena as well as plant and animal life. Over the course of leveling your Path in Wildstar, you gain some unique path abilities like rezzes, combat drops, or jump jets.

Themes are kind of similar in Starfinder. You get some special abilities as you level up and a core character story or identity that affects how others interact with you. Technomancer Icon? Everyone knows about your amazing abilities and might treat you like a Celebrity Hacker or something similar. Soldier Icon? Gladiator or widely known General or other soldier. Envoy? Pop Staaaaaar!

The Themes give you a great social or exploration jumping off point, regardless of your class's abilities to help round all of the characters out.

Wartex1

2017-08-12, 10:58 AM

Ninjaxenomorph

2017-08-12, 11:00 AM

Why do I feel a Solarian Icon would be a motivational vlogger? Solarians are kinda the odd class out. I've read about what they can do, but I don't know much about them. They still seem like they would be my favorite class to play.

Steampunkette

2017-08-12, 11:27 AM

The Solarion Icon example is, essentially "Superhero".

If you choose an archetype, you lose whatever class ability you'd normally get at a series of specific levels and then gain the archetype abilities at those levels. A Phrenic character gets some spellcasting abilities at spell level breakpoints, for example, and the class attached to it loses abilities at those levels.

I don't really deal with Tiers in gaming, to be honest. Trying to compare them to "Power Tiers" in Pathfinder is kinda pointless, to boot. A Pathfinder character might throw off a 20d6 fireball with some bigger effects tied to it. Meanwhile an Operative will throw off 4 Rifle shots at 14d6 each if they take the Long Arms or Heavy Weapons feats with a better chance to hit on the second, third, and fourth shots than a Fighter does in Pathfinder.

We'll have to play the game for a few months to really figure out which classes are strong or weak, useful or useless.

Wartex1

2017-08-12, 11:32 AM

Okay, so the Phrenic archetype is what I thought it was. That makes gishing a lot easier, since now anyone can gish with it.

Starbuck_II

2017-08-12, 11:33 AM

How exactly do the two archetypes work? I know that archetypes are now universal class template things, but how do the two in the book seem to perform?

EDIT: Okay, so the Envoy seems pretty underpowered, right?

If there was a 3.5 tier list for the classes, where would the classes fit in? Everything seems Tier 3-4.

Sadly, there are two only.
They are pretty neat though.
Starfinder forerunner: helps when discovery/survival of new worlds, the 6th level ability is pretty useful universally though. It only exchanges class features at 2, 4, and 6th so you don't lose too much of normal class features. Better depending on campaign.

The other one Phrenic Adept is a totally class feature changer: make a "psionic" version of it.
Gives telepathy, save reroll vs spells, take less damage/duration from harmful spells, determine through magic sight who has magic, even cast a few spells, and at 16th get three abilities (only use 1 each day once): Psychic crush is strong nonlethal, but synesthesia mass staggers (and gives you concealment against) for a few rounds

Depending on what you are giving up Phrenic could be awesome, but Forerunner can easily be taken as it only gives up three abilities.

A Solarian with Phrenic would make a jedi more thematically better I guess. Then again, that is 5 revelations given up.
It is to new for me to be sure if worth it yet.

Steampunkette

2017-08-12, 11:42 AM

Okay, so the Phrenic archetype is what I thought it was. That makes gishing a lot easier, since now anyone can gish with it.

Not... Exactly. When I say spellcasting abilities I mean very limited and explicit abilities.Mind reading, mind control, the ability to spend a resolve to autosucceed a saving throw. Casting Charm Person or Psychic Strangulation. Things like that.

Not "You gain the ability to cast spells at certain levels"

Wartex1

2017-08-12, 11:56 AM

Ah, well at least it's very thematic with sci-fi stuff.

Anonymouswizard

2017-08-12, 12:01 PM

All I need to know is, can I make a Phrenic Technomancer without losing spellcasting ability?

Steampunkette

2017-08-12, 12:09 PM

All I need to know is, can I make a Phrenic Technomancer without losing spellcasting ability?

At 4th level, and for all subsequent levels, you reduce the number of spells of the highest level you can cast by 1. So when you get to cast 2 3rd level spells, normally, you only get 1, instead. But when you hit the next tier, 4th level spells, you get all your third level slots back and lose a 4th level slot.

You also lose the ability to cast 3 spells into your Spell Cache that would normally affect you for 24 hours. Instead you only get 1. And you lose two Magic Hacks as well.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-08-12, 12:47 PM

Three Pathfinder Gods of machinery networked into Triune, a single deity made up of their personalities...
You say that they're one god with a single unified nature? Heresy! They are a god with three natures in one being!
But seriously, a sufficiently irreverent writer could have a lot of fun from mocking the old Trinity-based Christian schisms.

Any object traveling through space will have a bunch of maximum speeds. Maximum speed relative to reaction time (So that the pilot can maneuver around objects). Maximum speed relative to the ship's secondary/mobility controls (So that when the ship is on autopilot it can still maneuver around obstacles). And an absolute Maximum Speed which is be -vastly- below light speed and based entirely on the mass of the vehicle in question, since increasing the object's speed means adding kinetic energy to it greater than it's total mass, even in a weightless environment, and at some point you will reach a speed beyond which the ship's thrusters cannot provide further kinetic energy, because E=MC2. Every iota of energy added increases the mass of the object being moved.
Those are reaction time, maneuverability, and fuel/energy limitations*. Not really related to velocity (except the last one, but most games with a "maximum speed" let you slow down or turn after reaching maximum speed, so it's not that).

*Though expressed poorly, due to the unspoken assumption that the rest mass of the object remains constant as it accelerates, which is impossible if you don't have a reactionless drive and some Sufficiently Advanced power source...which would also allow you to accelerate infinitely up to the limits of the power source, breaking the argument again.

Sure - but the same was true in 3e to 3.5 changes... or 3.5 to Pathfinder changes.
Or 3.5/PF to 5e.

Serafina

2017-08-12, 01:46 PM

I wanted to be a lot more excited about the cross-class Archetypes, but sadly a lot of the time you'll just loose too much:
You lose class features at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 9th, 12th and 18th level.
For a lot of classes, that's basically almost their entire customization, and sometimes almost their entire power.

For the Envoy, you basically lose all your Envoy Improvisations. You know, your main source of unique actions, what actually makes the Envoy an Envoy - you'll be stuck with just one until 8th level!
For the Mechanic, at least you still have your Drone or Exocortex, as well as the other abilities you get from leveling. But having no Mechanic Tricks until 8th level hurts a lot, and you'll only get your second one at 14th level.
For the Operative, you lose all Operative Exploits until 8th level too, leaving you with one from your specialization until then. This can be bearable, but still, ouch.
For the Solarian, you'll be stuck with your first-level Revelation until 8th level too, and only your second one at 14th level.
For the Soldier, it's actually fine - you just lose combat feats, which is okay, you still get your unique things.
For the Mystic and Technomancer, you mostly lose spells know, which hurts but doesn't turn your class into a featureless wreck like it does with some of the others.

Now, keep in mind that not all Archetypes replace something at those levels. The Phrenic Adept does, but the Starfinder Forerunner only at 2nd, 4th and 6th level.
So, what do they do, and is it worth it?

The Phrenic Adept starts out by getting Limited Telepathy (30 foot range, or increase it to 60 foot if you already have it), gains two languages just for use with telepathy, and doesn't have to meet the Charisma requirement for the Psychic Power feats.
Just the telepathy can be nice, and is certainly flavorful. But Minor Psychic Power only allows you to cast one of Dancing Lights, Psychokinetic Hand, Telekinetic Projectile or Telepathic Message three times per day, Psychic Power only allows you to cast one of Comprehend Languages, Detect Thoughts or Mind Link once per day, and Major Psychic Power only allows you to cast Augury or Status once per day. That's...it's already not a good feat investment in a lot of ways, especially compared to Connection Inkling or Technomantic Dabbler which give two at-will 0th-level spells and one 1st-level spell you can cast once per day per three character levels.
Then, you get to spend 1 Resolve to re-roll failed mind-affecting/pain saving throws, and reduce the damge and duration of those. That's actually pretty potent.
Then, you get to spend Resolve for a limited version of Arcane Sight and some emotion sense. Which can certainly be useful, but at this point you've given up all your class-unique improvements in a lot of cases.
The next three levels are all spell-like abilities, which can be decent, but again, the cost of class-unique improvements is often just too darn steep.

The Starfinder Forerunner starts by giving you Culture and Surival as class skills (or 1/day rerolls with the skill if it's already one), untrained checks to identify creatures, and full overland speed in severe weather and while foraging.
Then you get +2 Initiative if you act during a surprise round, learn twice (later thrice) the amount of information from identifying a creature, and never do wrong translations of texts.
Finally, you get to spend Resolve once per day to regain half your level in stamina as a standard action, or restore your full level in hitpoints to a vehicle or other item.
This is mostly more appealing because you don't actually cripple your class as much. You only give up your first three features, which can be pretty bearable.

I wish the cost for archetypes was less steep, and especially that it didn't take away all class features in some cases until 8th level in some cases.
Phrenic Adept would be improved a lot if you actually gained the Psychic Power feats as bonus feats, and if those feats either didn't make you choose which spell you get, or just let you cast those spells at-will (None are really combat-relevant, and the only one where it could break anything is Augury, and that costs Resolve to use). Then it might actually be a great stand-alone set of abilities.
Starfinder Forerunner is fine for all classes except the Envoy (who just needs Envoy Improvisations too much).
All archetypes would really benefit from allowing you to spend feats to make up for lost talents.

Starbuck_II

2017-08-13, 10:02 AM

So I like the augments you can do to yourself/gear.

When making a sample character, I spent 100 on gill so I'm amphibious now. Being so cheap is awesome, but this will depend on will water come up that often.
You can get augments to your weapons and armor even.

Do you want darkvision 60 ft, only 200 (if you have the right armor that can hold a slot), Infared sensors are for you.
At first the only armors that can do so at level 1 (I mean you can afford):
1) light Estex suit or second skin
2) Heavy: Ceremomial plate, troop

Weapon upgrades unlike armor are limited to weapon level,upgrades can only be on placed on things their level or higher. Having one attached makes weapon Magic for DR. They can removed to add to another weapon.

So returning, called, anchoring, Defiant, Durable, Glamered, Illuminating, Trailblazer (only 120 gp) can be added to 1st level weapons, none others (since your weapon level is too low). Attaching upgrades to consumables like grenades costs 1/2.

2nd level weapons can get really good ones like Burst, Blast, any of the alignment ones like Holy, Merciful, and Spellthrower.

Makes me want to buy a level 2 weapon at 1st just to get Blast or Burst. Blast is like a shotgun effect (30 ft, 1/2 damage) and Burst is like Chain Lightning (on a crit).
But only weapons that can get Blast at 1st level money are arc pistol static, the net (who cares if no damage, everyone entangled), multiple longarm weapons, flamethrower, etc.

Just thinking outloud.

Cosi

2017-08-13, 10:23 AM

What's the cheese? What's the really stupid overpowered crap you can pull in Starfinder? Preferably, stuff that is reasonably unique to the game.

I wanted to be a lot more excited about the cross-class Archetypes, but sadly a lot of the time you'll just loose too much:
You lose class features at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 9th, 12th and 18th level.
For a lot of classes, that's basically almost their entire customization, and sometimes almost their entire power.

Wat? If archetypes are non-class specific, you should just get one as part of your character. That is the super-obviously correct solution to this design problem. Did Paizo really not figure that out?

Steampunkette

2017-08-13, 11:03 AM

Archetypes are designed to alter a class from the core into something else. Not augment the class's extant abilities. You don't need one and if they added in an Archetype slot for every character it would water down their individual class identities even further.

As to cheese: Not really, yet. And looking over the rules thus far hasn't shown me any cheese, either.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-08-13, 02:25 PM

So returning, called, anchoring, Defiant, Durable, Glamered, Illuminating, Trailblazer (only 120 gp) can be added to 1st level weapons, none others (since your weapon level is too low). Attaching upgrades to consumables like grenades costs 1/2.
Part of me wants to enchant my buddy's (nonlethal) grenades with the Returning property. Or, if possible, my enemies'.

Ilorin Lorati

2017-08-13, 02:45 PM

Part of me wants to enchant my buddy's (nonlethal) grenades with the Returning property. Or, if possible, my enemies'.

Neither is possible. Returning requires the Thrown special property, which grenades do not have. They can still be thrown because they are ranged weapons with the capacity of Drawn and a range (universally 20' in the CRB), but the Thrown property determines if they get Str bonus to damage (they do not), and that they are recoverable / reusable (they are not).

Florian

2017-08-13, 02:53 PM

Starbuck_II

2017-08-13, 03:00 PM

Well, if you are a Solarion with armor ability instead of sword, definitely get Heavy armor feat only so you qualify for Power Armor. You can use Power Armor in any light armor (even Solarion's armor class feature).
You get highest AC that way.

But the sword with Solarion crystals (you should get them if choose sword) gets you pretty much best or even with Soldier in damage.

So tough choice.

Ballistic is useful if enemy has high EAC (energy AC, otherwise known as Touch AC), unless you want to be in melee (though there are energy melee weapons).

Most early armors boost KAC more EAC though (Kinetic Armor Class). Edit: all armors boost KAC more, strange design. Let alone the Dex Limit, it would be cool to see an armor that boosts EAC more.
Though, energy seems to deal less at lower levels.

Serafina

2017-08-13, 05:30 PM

Are there example monsters in the book? Remembering some of the problems with tech weapons we had in iron Gods (non-scaling weapon damage vs. resistances), I wonder how they solved that. As far as I can gather from First Contact, resistance and immunity stayed practically unchanged. So, how´s it looking on the weapon, feat or class features side with things dealing with it, or should you (still) pack a ballistic weapon as a backup when your arc rifle is useless?Weapons scale a lot - a laser pistol goes from 1D4 to 8D4, a reaction cannon from 1D10 to 12D10.

Also, kinetic weapons ought to be pretty competetive with energy weapons.
Projectile weapons are an option in every weapon category (small arms, longarms, heavy weapons). Their damage is quite competetive, and you won't have to worry about energy resistances - and they can use ammunition made from special materials. Many are even analog, meaning they're harder to interfere with by anti-tech magics and the like.
On the other hand, energy weapons have critical effects that most projectile-weapons lack (but a weapon fusion can take care of that), offer line-, blast, and area-effects that you don't get on projectile weapons, and often both hold more ammo and are easier to recharge.

Wartex1

2017-08-13, 05:40 PM

Starbuck_II

2017-08-13, 07:26 PM

Ooh, speaking of energy and kinetic weapons, is it possible to have a weapon that fires both, either using a "fused shot" that counts as both or have two barrels, one for kinetic and one for energy?

Oh, and how easy would porting some of the Pathfinder classes that can't be emulated too easily with the new ones be? I could totally see a Ranger in space with Favored Planets instead of Terrains.
It mentions conversion ideas in back so a ranger could work.

It suggest key mod be dex or Wis.
It suggest Rangers get simple melee weapons and small arms as well as advanced melee and longarms.
As all casters have reduced casting, I'd delay casting till 7th and grant up to 3rd only.

TWF/rapid shot no longer a feat (unless you are that 4 armed race).
Okay, I'm wrong, there is multiweapon Fighting (reduces penalty when full attack by 1 when using two weapons not one)
Starting at 1st everyone can take full attack (attacking twice) , but -4 hit penalty. So with the feat and you do it more accurate.
Shot on the run/Spring Attack exists.

I guess he can get those as a bonus feat.

Wartex1

2017-08-13, 07:31 PM

Oh, something else that completely slipped my mind: what are the rules for combat maneuvers, especially the ones that are more reliant on melee combat (disarm, grapple, sunder, and trip)?

Steampunkette

2017-08-13, 07:36 PM

Oh, something else that completely slipped my mind: what are the rules for combat maneuvers, especially the ones that are more reliant on melee combat (disarm, grapple, sunder, and trip)?

Roll an attack roll as a standard action against the target's Kinetic AC +8.

If you hit, you succeed at the maneuver. Dirty Trick is the only one that I -think- is new? Allows you to apply Blinded, Off-Target, Sickened, Deafened, Entangled, or Shaken to a target.

Wartex1

2017-08-13, 07:40 PM

Florian

2017-08-14, 02:20 AM

Let´s see if I get some things right (Annoying to not have the books and only info from the web).

- Archetypes work more like VMC now, with each class having a fixed "exchange" track.

- The "Healer" Mystic is basically an Oradin-in-a-can, but channeling costs resolve points. Blasting undead would need a feat, tho.

- Soldiers are quite good in combat, but Starfinder makes "tanking" a bit harder.

- Comparatively small feat selection, no class specific feats. The former "Minor Magic" rogue talent line is now a general feat.

- Crafting feats. Gone. Basically anyone can craft items now, using either Engineering or Mysticism, but must have UPBs in stock.

- Vehicle and chase rules are unchanged from PF.

- Starship Combat is eerily similar to the system used in Rogue Trader, but with less tactical depth and less severe critical effects. (No lance - shield / macrocannon - armor interplay, boarding, fighters, torpedoes)

- Hellknights. That picture is so damn cool.

- As usual, the book absolutely manages to fail at explaining how to use it and how a game based on it should look like.

Serafina

2017-08-14, 02:51 AM

On combat maneuvers:
They are all a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. We still have Bull Rush, Dirty Trick, Disarm, Grapple, Reposition, Sunder and Trip.
While it's now an attack againt Kinetic Armor Class +8 (often making it harder), there is no longer a modifier based on size and the Improved Combat Maneuver feat applies a +4 bonus to one of them.

Several combat maneuvers have been slightly changed:
- you can no longer follow an enemy with Bull Rush, most likely to prevent double-movement.
- Dirty Trick can be made at range, but with a -2 penalty per 5 feet distance. It can still be removed as a move action
- Disarm allows you to pick up the dropped item without needing a very high check result.
- Grapple is now much easier to understand.
- Reposition now allows you to use it as a full action and then move the enemy with you.
- Trip can now be moved against flying targets or targets in zero gravity. The former fall 10 feet, the latter knocks them off-kilter (imposing -2 to attacks until they steady themselves as a move action).

There is also currently only one feat (other than Improved Combat Maneuver) that interacts with them. Pull Pin allows you to pull the pin on an enemies grenade, which then explodes at the end of their turn.

The Solarian gets to make combat maneuvers with the Gravity Surge Revelation. It's a full action for a disarm or trip combat maneuver at 30 foot range, using Charisma instead of Strength and a +4 bonus that doesn't stack with the feat. When fully attuned, you get to pull the item to you at range, or pull a foe 10 foot closer. This can be boosted to 60 foot range and targeting two enemies, at 16th level via the Ultimate Graviton revelation (which also benefits all other gravity revelations). It should also work with Pull Pin.

The Soldier gets to enhance Bull Rush via two means.
The Smash Through ability (gained at 9th level) from the Armor Storm specialization gives +4 to Bull Rush (which does stack), and if you push them 10 feet you also get to damage them.
The Charge Attack ability (gained at 5th level) from the Blitz specialization gives you the ability to Bull Rush at the end of a charge, though you'll probably just make two attacks instead more often once you can (which is also unique to the Soldier).

Overall, I'm not quite sure what to think of Combat Maneuvers in Starfinder yet.
On the one hand, the +8 bonus might just put them out of reliable reach all too often - but on the other, it's now far easier against strong or large enemies, and I entirely approve of that.
There is obviously far less support so far, with just two feats and a total of three class abilities, but that may or may not change.

In the future, I hope to see a "Versatile Combat Maneuver" feat, which would just apply the +4 bonus to all combat maneuvers. Likewise, here's some ideas for feats to improve the various combat maneuvers:
- Dirty Fighting to increase the action-to-remove to a standard action, and also allow the dirty trick combat maneuver to be used without penalty within a weapons first range increment
- a feat that allows either one or all (or one until you've taken Verstatile Combat Maneuver) to treat their check-result as 5 higher to determine the result, or allows you to add your key ability score for that purpose (which would scale a bit better).
- a feat that allows combat maneuvers as part of a full attack.

For now, I expect to see Soldiers who make use of Bull Rush (Armor Storm is a pretty good specialization all around), and Solarians who rely mostly on their revelations that use disarm and trip, and not much else use of combat maneuvers simply because no single one is worth specializing in via the feat without supporting abilities, and dealing damage will almost always be better.
Just the Versatile Combat Maneuver feat would likely change that, as would other support.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-08-14, 06:22 AM

Neither is possible. Returning requires the Thrown special property, which grenades do not have. They can still be thrown because they are ranged weapons with the capacity of Drawn and a range (universally 20' in the CRB), but the Thrown property determines if they get Str bonus to damage (they do not), and that they are recoverable / reusable (they are not).
Why do game designers have to notice the potentially-disruptive loopholes before devious players have a chance to have fun with them?
...That's a rhetorical question.

Steampunkette

2017-08-14, 07:39 AM

Dirty Trick is in Pathfinder. Built a character around it.

So, do they provoke attacks of opportunity still? Because if so, then they seem like they're gonna suck with that hefty modifier, and I assume feats will reduce/counteract that modifier somewhat.

Now to see if I could port DDS's Luchador to have an Icon-themed Wrestler named John Xeno. :smalltongue:

No AoO on Combat Maneuvers. I think that's -why- they're harder. No chance of someone swording you in the face and saying "You stop that"

- Archetypes work more like VMC now, with each class having a fixed "exchange" track.

I presume so, though I don't know what VMC are. The classes do have a fixed exchange track, however.

The "Healer" Mystic is basically an Oradin-in-a-can, but channeling costs resolve points. Blasting undead would need a feat, tho.

Resolve based Channeling of Healing is there, where you spend a resolve to grant HP to yourself as a move, or an ally as a standard. Starts at 2d8, increases by 2d8 at 3rd and every 3 levels. They also get Lifelink at the start of every turn to just hand out their own hit points to wounded allies outside of action economy. They can also lifesteal for 10d6 damage and healing from an enemy, eventually. But any Undead Blasting will be through spells, not class abilities.

- Soldiers are quite good in combat, but Starfinder makes "tanking" a bit harder.

Debatable... Not that Soldiers are good in combat, they're GREAT! But tanking might be easier thanks to the focus on ranged weapons. Everyone ducks for cover while the soldier's in the open being an "Easier" target, using melee and ranged weapons in either hands to take AoO. Maybe even wearing Power Armor that makes her Large and grants Reach.

- Comparatively small feat selection, no class specific feats. The former "Minor Magic" rogue talent line is now a general feat.

This is all true. But we'll see how long the first one lasts...

-
Crafting feats. Gone. Basically anyone can craft items now, using either Engineering or Mysticism, but must have UPBs in stock.

Yup.

- Vehicle and chase rules are unchanged from PF.

More or less.

- Starship Combat is eerily similar to the system used in Rogue Trader, but with less tactical depth and less severe critical effects. (No lance - shield / macrocannon - armor interplay, boarding, fighters, torpedoes)

Don't know enough about Rogue Trader, but it seems like this might be accurate?

- Hellknights. That picture is so damn cool.

Hell Yeah!

- As usual, the book absolutely manages to fail at explaining how to use it and how a game based on it should look like.

Not entirely? Maybe they don't do it well enough by some margins, but they do a fairly good job with their examples of play. Better than 2e's "Wererats and Thunking the Tile back into place!"

Sky

2017-08-14, 09:13 AM

Steampunkette

2017-08-14, 09:52 AM

Does Starfinder have better rules for cover? For example, firing around a corner, blind-firing over the top of a crate, or laying down suppressive fire? Is there a "spray-and-pray" option?
Seems like the larger focus on ranged combat (with one-handed weapons that reload without an action cost) would need better rules than Pathfinder's ones built around the (cross)bow as the default ranged weapon.

Cover is pretty simple. +4 to both AC types, +2 to Reflex saves. Improved cover is 8 and 4. Soft cover is just the AC bonus. And If half of you is visible it drops down to 2 and 1.

If you're pressed against the cover, you can lean around it and attack with no penalties, and still be "Behind it" for the purposes of cover bonuses. That's whether you're popping up t otake a shot, leaning around a corner, or whatever. If you blind-fire over the top of a crate, just treat it like firing blind. 50% miss chance if you can identify the location of your target.

Covering Fire is you make an AC 15 attack roll against no one as a standard action. One ally gets a +2 Circumstance Bonus to AC against the next incoming attack from someone you could have hit from your position when you made the covering fire attack.

Spray and Pray is whenever you've got an Automatic Weapon. Flip it into Auto Mode, and use a Standard Action to fire a cone half the length of the weapon's range increment. You use all of the ammo in the weapon. For every 2 shots you have in the weapon, make 1 attack against someone within range. Closest target takes the first attack roll, then move outward doing the same thing. Allies in the area are at the same chance to get shot as anyone else. When you run out of ammo, you stop making automatic attacks. No one gets more than 1 attack roll against them, no matter how much ammo you dump.

Spray and Pray blind fire, for me, would just be Spray and Pray. I wouldn't impose Disadvantage 'cause you're just hosing down the area.

Starbuck_II

2017-08-14, 10:00 AM

Steampunkette

2017-08-14, 10:35 AM

Suppressive fire is a feat: you need an automatic weapon
Spry Cover is a feat: instead of cover fire, you can grant an ally to next +4 acrobatics check to tumble
Combat options:
Cover Fire: Hit AC 15, deal no damage, but boost an allies AC by 2.
Harrying Fire: Hit AC 15, deal no damage, but next person to attack foe gets +2 hit.

There are penetrating weapons that can go through cover if deal enough.

Suppressive Fire is a feat, I was writing down the rules for Covering Fire. My mistake!

The Suppressive Fire Feat allows you to fire off 10 shots from an Automatic Weapon with no chance to hit a target. It functions as either Harrying Fire or Covering Fire, but you get a +4 bonus to the single attack roll you make, if your roll is higher than an enemy's AC, they get the penalty to attack, or the higher chance of getting hit. If you're Covering, just pick one ally to get the benefit.

Between an Envoy and a Fighter with Suppressive Fire you could reduce the Full Attack penalty to 0 for every one of your allies to hit enemies, including the Envoy.

NightbringerGGZ

2017-08-14, 02:09 PM

Wartex1

2017-08-14, 02:19 PM

Reading through my PDF finally. One thing I'd point out is that the devs wimped out a bit with the Lashunta. Instead of sexual dimorphism like in PF, they just have two sub-species now. The don't even describe the males as being particularly hirsute any longer. I'm going to miss the old version of them.

They explained that in a blog post or something. A Lashunta chooses which subspecies to develop into, and the old traditions dictated that males usually went one way and females went another, but over time, that tradition has broken down.

Serafina

2017-08-14, 03:14 PM

I for one am happy about dimorphism that's a bit more original than "male strong, female smart".

So, Flight in Starfinder.
There was a lot of talk about how it's easier to access - and in a lot of ways, it is. But maybe not as all-encompassing as some might imagine.

The most univeral way of gaining flight is via armor upgrades. They can be installed in light and heavy armor, but not im power armor.
Jump Jets are cheap - just 1000 credits, easily accessible at level 3 or so if you really want. But they can at most move you 30 feet horizontally or 20 feet vertically, which is barely flight and just better jumping.
A jetpack gives actual flight - 30 foot, average maneuverability - and contains enough power for 20 rounds of flight, or 40 minutes during which you're flat-footed and off-target (). At 3100 credits, it's pretty affordable too.
A forcepack comes with a 60 foot flight speed, and a capacity of 100 instead of 40. This is the best option, at 13000 credits.

There is also the Flight Frame power armor. It only gives a 30 foot flight speed, but has enough juice for 100 minutes without any penalty - but since it's powered armor, it'll drain that energy at all times while active, making it really cumbersome to wear for anything but a really short expedition (unless you carry tons of batteries). It also gives you a Strenght of 22, has four upgrades slots and can carry three weapons - but also makes you huge (while only giving you 10 foot reach), gives a -5 armor check penalty, limits your Dex-to-AC to +3, and of course needs powered armor training.

Next is the Flight spell, accessible to Technomancers. It's third-level version gives a 60 foot average flight speed to one target, lasting one minute per caster level. The 4th-level version increases that to 70 foot and 10 minutes per level, while the 5th-level version lasts an hour per level. Finally, the 6th-level version can target multiple targets, and lasts 10 minutes per level.
This should also work on power armor, and the higher-level versions are quite long-lasting. Certainly a powerful option.

And finally, we get class-based options.
A Mechanics drone can fly at it's speed, as an advanced mod (at 11th level), first with a limited duration and with an upgrade all the time. The hover drone starts with that ability, and can bestow it via Drone Meld (which you can take at 8th level). With an Exocortex, you can take this upgrade and apply it to yourself (at 11th and 14th level).
A Star Shaman Mystic gets an at-will 20 foot flight speed while in space, and at 9th level their starlight form (which can be used for 1 minute per level) also comes with a 60 foot average flight speed.
A Xenodruid Mystic can, at 12th level, grow wings that grant a 30 foot average flight speed, but also only for up to 1 minute per class level.
The Solarian has access to Deny Gravity - which just lets you fly your speed, after which you have to land. This can be extended to twice your speed (at the cost of both your move actions) and increased by 10(20) feet, but it's never full flight.

All in all, flight for the purpose of maneuvering around obstacles is accessible to basically anyone. It can even be used in combat without penalties, but your limited fuel restricts that. Faster flight, or ones that are more reliably accessible in combat, are restricted to one type of power armor (and power armor has it's own logistics issues), or to certain classes.

Wartex1

2017-08-14, 03:21 PM

Flight for everyone seems cool, especially since it lends itself to less traditional parties (instead of Soldier, Operative, Mystic, Technomancer, a party could be three Soldiers and an Envoy) without "losing out" on options.

NightbringerGGZ

2017-08-14, 03:44 PM

I for one am happy about dimorphism that's a bit more original than "male strong, female smart".

I'll grant you that. I just enjoyed the Lashunta fluff as being a call back to the old pulp adventures. I get they're getting updated, but they could have kept some of the more amusing descriptors. Keeping the males hairy for instance, or keeping the height differentials. Even if those differences were now due to the sub-races instead of being specific to a particular sex. Really a minor issue TBH.

Some thoughts on the Envoy:
It's reminding me more of the Tactician Fighter archetype, or a bit like the Mesmerist rather, with the skill focus of an Investigator. As a 4th or 5th party member I can see an Envoy being a decent force multiplier. Clever Feint, Get 'Em, Clever Attack and Improved Get 'Em makes for a pretty decent use of action economy if you're supporting a couple of players focused on combat. Seeing as how this is more of a Star Wars/Shadow Run setting I can also see a lot of use from being so good at skill-usage. Inspiring Boost is also a pretty good emergency heal. Standard action for a 30 foot ranged heal of 2x your Envoy level + Cha. Boosted to 3x your Envoy level at level 15 and you can spend 1 Resolve to get another 1x Envoy level on that heal. Usable once per target per short rest basically. Combo that with abilities that allow you to spend resolve to remove negative status conditions and you've got a pretty decent mundane combat medic there. I'm sure I'll see more uses for the class when I start going over the skills in detail.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-08-14, 06:08 PM

They explained that in a blog post or something. A Lashunta chooses which subspecies to develop into, and the old traditions dictated that males usually went one way and females went another, but over time, that tradition has broken down.
Depending on how they develop that idea, it sounds like it could be a functional allegory for a transsexual-accepting culture. (You know, with most males going male-caste, but some identify with the female-caste, and usually aren't rejected for/restricted from doing so.)

Ninjaxenomorph

2017-08-14, 06:10 PM

I actually really like the in-universe explanation behind the retcon, given by Crystal Frasier (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ubv9?Enworld-Exclusive-Planet-Castrovel-preview#32):

The lashunta evolved two distinct types of adolescent developments as a response to the severe swings in environmental pressures of their homeworld. Depending on the pressures they faced at puberty, they would either mature as hardy, combative korasha, or they would mature as adaptable, observant damaya. When their culture later developed a tradition of strong gender roles, the kinds of pressures that triggered development as a korasha fell almost entirely on males, while the pressures that trigger damaya development fell almost wholly on women.

As lashunta have move towards leaving their sexism in the past and opening social roles, education, and careers up to everyone regardless of gender, the distribution has become much more even, and many city-states even allow a child to choose how they will develop (by way of meditation and/or medication) rather than just relying on ambient environmental pressures. There are still a few conservative city-states where the gender divide exists and the subspecies are still largely divived by gender, but these are increasingly rare.