Warblade with shadow hand abilitys

[Zellsantal]

My dad is wanting to play a warblade in our game but he also want to able to use the ability's from the shadow hand. He likes the idea of going though shadows and come out of no were and attack some one. Now I don't know the class's well enough to help him get that point so my question is how would one go about doing this? Should he take multiy class both warblade and swordsage or just take feats? Also is there any penalties for a warblade to use any of the shadow hand stuff?

[Telonius]

His best bet would be a level or two of Swordsage. While you can get some maneuvers through the Martial Study feats, that would be a whole lot of feats invested in getting even a few maneuvers. Swordsage is extremely front-loaded. You get a whole lot of maneuvers at level 1, making it an extraordinarily powerful and versatile dip class. If there's just one particular maneuver he really wants, get it by a feat; otherwise take a level. You also have the issue of recovery mechanic. Maneuvers gained through feats are only 1/encounter. Maneuvers gained through levels get the usual recovery mechanic. Granted, swordsage's mechanic is very annoying, but you could still conceivably use them more than once in an encounter if you absolutely have to.

When he would take the level, would depend on how powerful the maneuvers he wants access to. If he just wants the low-level stuff, he'd be fine to take it at first level. (That would be preferable, actually, since he'd get the extra skill points multiplied by 4). If he wants higher level maneuvers, he ought to wait until he's higher level.

There's no particular penalty for a Warblade using Shadow Hand maneuvers. The only thing you would need to remember is that his Warblade and Swordsage initiator levels get tracked separately. Warblade is Warblade Levels + 1/2 other levels; Swordsage is Swordsage Levels + 1/2 other levels. So if he's Warblade 16/Swordsage 4, his initiator level for Warblade is 18, and his initiator level for Swordsage is 12.

[Sam K]

Maneuvers gained through feats are only 1/encounter. Maneuvers gained through levels get the usual recovery mechanic.

Are you sure about that? I seem to recall that if you have initiator class levels, you can take maneuvers granted through feats as part of that class, and use the recovery mechanic.

[Telonius]

Are you sure about that? I seem to recall that if you have initiator class levels, you can take maneuvers granted through feats as part of that class, and use the recovery mechanic.

Oh yeah, I'm just considering as though it's a one-or-the-other question (get it through feats, or get it by levels in swordsage). You could possibly do both, but if you're already getting both Warblade and Swordsage levels you're going to have maneuvers up to your ears anyway.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am going to recomend Master of Nine as a solid option for this. It is a strong Warblade PRC. I also suggest dipping swordsage for 2 levels as it makes it much easier to qualify for master of nine.

Warblade 5 / Swordsage 2 / Master of Nine 5 is a solid build.

[gkathellar]

Unless he wants to really specialize in Shadow Hand, Martial Study and Martial Stance may be adequate for his needs. Three maneuvers and a stance should be enough to cover most of what Shadow Hand is good at. If he'd like to go Master of Nine later on, it can also tide him over until entry (but let him retrain those feats once he gets the PrC).

If you're willing/able to houserule, it's not unreasonable to sub out one of Warblade's disciplines for Shadow Hand (just bear in mind that he'll be getting some utility above what Warblades normally have, unless he intends to drop Diamond Mind).

[Fouredged Sword]

If you are going to sub out a school, I recommend replacing Iron Heart. Shadowhand is one of the Swordsage only schools. Iron Heart is the Warblade only school. A shadow hand/diamond mind warblade would be pretty cool come to think of it.

[Gruftzwerg]

IIRC you just need a PRC that gives you Shadow Hand maneuvers & stances. This way, they can be refreshed by the warblade mechanic (like with the feat) and doesn't cost you a feat or force you into a swordsage dip (= bad refresh mechanic for your Shadow Hand maneuvers).

[DeTess]

IIRC you just need a PRC that gives you Shadow Hand maneuvers & stances. This way, they can be refreshed by the warblade mechanic (like with the feat) and doesn't cost you a feat or force you into a swordsage dip (= bad refresh mechanic for your Shadow Hand maneuvers).

IIRC, prc's with shadow hand are ruby knight vindicator (requires cleric dip and two devotion maneuvers) something-something ninja (build for unarmed swordsages) and master of nine (for most efficien entry, needs a 1 level unarmed swordsage dip and a 1 level fighter dip(or cleric with darkness and time domains)).

I'd personally go with master of nine. It's the hardest to qualify for, but it has the most freedom for character types.

Edit: if you just want to homebrew in shadow hand, switching it for iron heart as suggested, or duamond mind is probably best. Both of these are rather powerful disciplines, like shadow hand.

[Sleven]

Have him go straight Warblade (like he wants to) and use a combination of Shadow Hands (the item), an Eternal Wand of Heroics, and the Martial Study/Martial Stance feats (applied to his Warblade maneuvers known) to stagger his way up into the higher level Shadow Hand maneuvers. Maneuvers are always to your advantage when acquiring, and still function if you no longer meet their prerequisites, so this method will work to get him into the Master of Nine PrC for a more permanent solution. Then have him retrain any Martial Study/Stance feats he took once he's in the Master of Nine PrC.

Warblade bonus feats are mostly crap, but many of them help qualify for Master of Nine. Furthermore, (depending on his build objectives) he can combine it with a Barbarian dip for things like Pounce (Lion Spiritual Totem ACF) and Improved Unarmed Strike (City Brawler ACF), or he could go Martial Monk 2 with Kung-Fu Genius to pick up Int to AC and Weapon Supremacy. Personally, I like combining a Master of Nine build like this with something a little more interesting, like Telflammar Shadowlord or Critini Shadow Marauder for Shadow Pounce. Remind him that he can initiate his martial recovery mechanic as a swift action after he's used something like Shadow Jaunt, but before he begins his full attack.

He'll feel like a badass shredding enemies left and right later in your campaign.

[DeTess]

Have him go straight Warblade (like he wants to) and use a combination of Shadow Hands (the item), an Eternal Wand of Heroics, and the Martial Study/Martial Stance feats (applied to his Warblade maneuvers known) to stagger his way up into the higher level Shadow Hand maneuvers. Maneuvers are always to your advantage when acquiring, and still function if you no longer meet their prerequisites, so this method will work to get him into the Master of Nine PrC for a more permanent solution. Then have him retrain any Martial Study/Stance feats he took once he's in the Master of Nine PrC.



As far as I know, you can not retrain feat gained maneuvers, martial stances unless you allow feat retraining. It doesn't matter if your chosen maneuver is from a discipline you can learn normally.

[Crake]

IIRC you just need a PRC that gives you Shadow Hand maneuvers & stances. This way, they can be refreshed by the warblade mechanic (like with the feat) and doesn't cost you a feat or force you into a swordsage dip (= bad refresh mechanic for your Shadow Hand maneuvers).

You don't even need a prc, if you're a warblade, and you get martial study for a shadow hand maneuver, it's simply added to your maneuvers known, and that's that. The feat says nothing about the martial adept levels you have requiring access to the said discipline, so a 3rd level warblade could pick up martial study for shadow jaunt, or cloak of deception and treat it entirely as a warblade maneuver.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think the idea espoused with the gloves and wand is not to retrain your martial study feats, but to place them as high as posible before taking off and putting back on the gloves to push the gloves up as high as possible.

For example, at level 9 and want to take martial study. You want to take two maneuvers with a requirement of 3 known shadowhand maneuvers known. You first put on the gloves to learn a no requirement maneuver. Then you use the wand twice to get martial study twice. Now you allocate your martial study feat to get one of the two maneuvers you want. Then you take the gloves off and put them back on to learn the second. When heroics wears off you still retain your knowledge of the maneuvers, one permanently, one until you take off the gloves.

It is a bit cheesy, but RAW.