When to multiclass to Paladin from Rogue? Possible to fit in 1 or 2 Fighter dip?

[ChalcosomaAtlas]

I'm building a Variant Human Rogue in AL right now and I need a bit of advice on levelling and progression. I know high tier 2 as well as tier 3 are quite far off, but I want a roadmap at least. Statline is 13/16/12/10/10/14, with the feat Magic Initiate - Cleric: Guidance, Spare the Dying, and Bless.

Thinking of going at least Rogue (Swashbuckler) 5 first to get Uncanny Dodge, then I can do one of:

branch off to 2 levels of Fighter then 6 levels of Paladin immediately after that (for Action Surge and TWF fighting style, then Defense style from Pally)
take a 1-level dip into Fighter (for the TWF fighting style)
skip the Fighter levels and go straight to Paladin (Dueling fighting style with a shield)
get straight Rogue until level 8 then multiclass (for more Expertise, Evasion, then ASI)


I'm leaning on the second option because I'm really envisioning this character as an inquisitor dual-wielding shortswords, but just one level of fighter seems like a bit of aw waste; I'd do the first one, but the progression into Pally seems slow if there's also Fighter levels; any advice would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[Sans.]

Paladin/Rogue just doesn't want to work. You can do it, but there isn't much synergy and it's MAD. I'd say you're better off going plain Fighter; Battlemaster for Riposte is always good.

[Theodoxus]

Not sure what Sans is talking about...

I built a Swashbuckling paladin a while back. The plan was 9 Rogue/11 Paladin. Maximizing Dex and Charisma, grabbed Alert feat because who doesn't want a +15 Initiative modifier?

Studded leather, shield and a rapier with Defense fighting style gives a 20 AC with 20 Dex. Expertise in Persuasion with the swashbuckling bonuses, and you're talking your way in and out of anything, and charming the pants off all the ladies (or gentlemen, depending).

Smiting on sneak crits? Yes please! You're the talkiest talky man who ever talked and the swarmiest swarmer who ever swarmed.

It's a lot of fun, and surprises folk like Sans who don't see it coming.

[random_guy]

When it comes to multiclassing, everyone knows that extra attact does not stack. Only a fighter can gain more than one extra attack. In a similar restriction, fighting styles and channel divinity do not stack. Only a champion archetype fighter can gain a second fighting style, and only a cleric can gain a second channel divinity. Let me know if the book contradicts me, and I am going with old beta material previously discussed on forum. If I am correct an AL DM would not allow the fighter dip fighting style and the paladin fighting style on the same character.

[PeteNutButter]

When it comes to multiclassing, everyone knows that extra attact does not stack. Only a fighter can gain more than one extra attack. In a similar restriction, fighting styles and channel divinity do not stack. Only a champion archetype fighter can gain a second fighting style, and only a cleric can gain a second channel divinity. Let me know if the book contradicts me, and I am going with old beta material previously discussed on forum. If I am correct an AL DM would not allow the fighter dip fighting style and the paladin fighting style on the same character.

You take different fighting styles such as TWF and defense. They don't stack per say, but you can have the benefit of two different ones.

I'd go rogue 5/paladin 6 before anything else. The fighter dip wouldn't be worth a few points on damage compared to the paladin goodies. If you want take the fighter level after that.

Also if you plan on going further in rogue, it might be a good idea to consider arcane trickster. Arcane trickster 6 and paladin 6 gives you third level spell slots to smite with. Probably worth more than a few points in initiative. You can still totally dump int.

[Waazraath]

I'd be careful with mixing the pally with too many classes/levels that doesn't increase spellcasting; a large part of playing the pally is doing burst damage with smiting. Though rogue brings its own source of that (Sneak Attack), adding more fighter to it isn't worth it. Also, a feature like 'lay on hands' increases in power with pally levels.

[PeteNutButter]

I'd be careful with mixing the pally with too many classes/levels that doesn't increase spellcasting; a large part of playing the pally is doing burst damage with smiting. Though rogue brings its own source of that (Sneak Attack), adding more fighter to it isn't worth it. Also, a feature like 'lay on hands' increases in power with pally levels.

This is why I suggest Arcane Trickster. Although it is dreadfully slow spell slot progression, at least it is progression. That way you can increase both your SA and smite damage (slowly) while increasing rogue.

As a caveat to what I mentioned earlier, if you're pre-level 5 you can change your character, and from an optimization standpoint, I'd recommend the following changes:

Stats: Int is totally useless, so dump int. Wisdom is nice, but since you are a little MAD, you may be ok dumping it. The plus side is you eventually add cha to saves. So 13, 16, 14, 8, 8, 14 might be better. The hit points will be needed as a d8 hit die class with relatively weak AC. Con saves will come up too, if you plan on concentrating on that Bless.

Feat: Magic Initiate is an ok feat, but taking bless is a bit weak if you eventually get it through paladin. I'd suggest a different spell that paladins don't get. Alternatively you could just dump the feat for something else. You could play it through to level 4 as is, but dump it before hitting 5th level. That way you'd only be down bless for two levels of play (5-6). A third option would be to hit level 5 as rogue 3/paladin 2, having bless [and smite].

Shield and rapier may be a better bet, but you can still TWF without the FS if you prefer it. I'd just wear half plate armor until you get maxed dex to help with your lower AC, as stealth isn't all that helpful in most AL mods.

[Corran]

I agree with Sans. I dont think these classes mix all that well, and when I played such a character I was left wanting.

But here is some advice:

1) Plan for darkvision.
The biggest reason I dont like this multiclass, is that its talentss are spread thin and it doesn't excel at one thing, during combat I mean. But you have the potential to be good at scouting, so IMO you shouldn't pass on that opportunity. For that though, you need darkvision. The best way to get it, IMO, is through changing your race (if that's possible at this point) to a halfelf (probably a variant, to get Booming Blade as well). You would lose the feat of course (and at this point I have to say that I find MI a mediocre choice for this character), but at least you get good stat bumps (and being MAD you need them), so that makes up for the lost feat, all while getting you darkvision and a few other perks that can be put to good use.
Note: If the DM pays no mind at all to illumination, then you might as well stick with human for race, though make sure to discuss this with the DM, so to prevent loss of functionality of your character if the DM changes his mind and starts paying more attention to illumination later in the campaign. Or, you can get night goggles, but in that case make sure you dont lose them. Point is, scouting is one of the (few) things you can be good at, so dont pass this opportunity, and get darkvision from somewhere.

2) Drop the fighter levels.
IMO they delay too much your progression. Even for a palassassin (which was what I played, regarding this multiclass), I really dont think they are worth it (and action surge plays really well with assassinate). So, being a swashbuckler, I think you can safely drop the fighter levels from your plans, and not worry at all.
Notes: If you decide to pick 1 fighter level, dont stop there, and go ahead and take a second level in fighter, for action surge. That's just my gut talking, as I think action surge is too cool of a feature to pass up, when you are only one level away from it. But as I said above, I think you are better off skipping fighter entirely.
Perhaps from a high level perspective, fighter levels are justified (maybe even up to 3 fighter levels, for an archtype as well), but I would probably start considering this after I would hit at least level 10 (rogue5/paladin5 - aura of protection is generally fantastic, but its value for you and your group will be determined by your charisma score and especially by the fighting style you adopt, meaning for example that if you play hit&run and there is usually none of your allies in your aura's radius, it might be justified to delay it in favor of some fighter levels or quicker rogur progression, or even skip it entirely. The key word here is ''might'', but do take into account to roughly what aura of protection will mean for you and your group ). If you go vengeance (hold person), there is always the gimmick of hold person + action surge (smite sneak attack), but be warned that there is a reason this is viewed as a gimmick (ie limited applicability).

3) About TWF
My favourite fighting style. I find it very cool. And if you are sold on it go for it (afterall the pal/rge I played was a twf). TWF is a bit weak, but if you have several rogue levels it might be worth it. Here comes the ''but''... But when you finally get extra attack (from paladin 5), I would say that your best bet (optimization wise) is to drop TWF and get a rapier and a shield. You delayed sneak attack progression will not get a huge benefit from a third attack (because extra attack feature) that also takes a bonus action (and you have some good uses for your bonus actions already). And your delayed spell slot progression will also not benefit that much yet again from a third attack, since you dont have that many spell slots. And IDS is too far away (assuming it is in your plans in the first place) to justify sticking with twf for that long, and if you even go for it (ie IDS), then you do so at the cost of extra sneak attack dice (and that in turn diminishes the value you will get out of TWF). All in all, I would say that unless you really want to be a TWF due to style reasons, you should probably avoid it, or at the very least change to SnB after you get extra attack.
Notes: - Once you get extra attack (and assuming you change to sword and board from twf), you could look into the possibility of taking the shield master feat. Of course, that would demand from you to use one of your expertise instances for athletics, it also costs one of your precious ASI's, the feat's third benefit gets redundant after you get evasion (rge7), and it alo provides competition for your bonus action (it competes with cunning acion, that is - dont discount bonus action disengage, especially if you manage to combine it with booming blade). So, it is not an automatic pick, but if your party is heavily melee-oriented it might be worth it (but it's a tough call IMO).
- There are many things (some of them you'll have, depending on how you approach combat) that dont work with Booming blade. For example, none of twf, extra attack, shield master's shove work well with BB. And additionaly, sneak attack and smites dont play well with it (as the whole point of smiting is to go nova, and for that you need extra attack, and sneak attack works best if you have more chances to hit -unless we are talking about a huge hit chance). But booming blade is very good to have, even if it doesnt work (well) with any of the above, because sometimes you will just want to hit and run away. And for these times, you need BB. I am not saying to go out of your way to get it, but if you select halfelf for your race (see my first point about darkvision), then I would strongly suggest selecting the variant that gives you BB at the price of the 2 extra skills. A difficult choice, but IMO it is worth it. This correlates somewhat with concentration (see below).

4) Concentration (and a bit about saving throws)
Concentration is often neglected when thinking of a build before hand, and if you dont plan for it, it will come to bite you in the butt. Not sure if resilient constitution deserves a place in your ASI progression (I think yes, but that's a feat I feel I overvalue sometimes), but if you dont get constitution save proficiency (or warcaster, but in your case I think resilient con is better, I skip on the why, as it would be a long post on its own - I may be wrong about this though), aura of protection will not be enough on its own to keep your concentration checks at an acceptable level for a frontliner. So, you either dont use concentration spells (or use them sparingly, when you judge the risk of losing them is low - and sellcasting usually means no sneak attacking, so you dont want to waste an action for an effect that you will probably lose when you will get hit), or you use them, and then you hit and run to a safe distance (that's one instance when you can make good use of BB + disengage for example, another good instance is when you are low on HP obviously) and then maybe even take out a bow (assuming extra attack and no shield ofc). Point is, take into account the risk of losing concentration. TWF + divine favor/ hunter's mark looks cool, but the risk of losing it lessens its theoritical value (perhaps to the point of making it a trap choice even). So be mindful of how you handle your spellcasting (especially concentration spells that take an action to use), as you dont want to forgoe puring damage for an effect that will last only a small portion of it duration.
Note: Many people are fans of the idea of starting as a fighter for con save proficiency. In some cases it is worth it, but generally speaking I am not a big fan of this approach, because it comes at the cost of another save proficiency, usually wisdom saves. My point is, that since your wisdom will probably be around 10, and since aura of protection will take some time to kick in (and cha bumps are some way far off), you should definitely plan for wisdom save proficiency (ie start as a paladin).


Anyway, these are some points I wanted to make, have fun with this character, and please do come back and tell us how your build performed and what you made of it, as this is one multiclass combination I find enjoyable and I would like to hear of ways on how to improve it.

[random_guy]

You take different fighting styles such as TWF and defense. They don't stack per say, but you can have the benefit of two different ones.

I'd go rogue 5/paladin 6 before anything else. The fighter dip wouldn't be worth a few points on damage compared to the paladin goodies. If you want take the fighter level after that.

Also if you plan on going further in rogue, it might be a good idea to consider arcane trickster. Arcane trickster 6 and paladin 6 gives you third level spell slots to smite with. Probably worth more than a few points in initiative. You can still totally dump int.

I stand corrected. The PHB said you cannot take a fighting style more than once. I interpreted it as no second fighting style at all. It turns out that you cannot take the same style a second time. Apparently, this question came up before and Jeremy Crawford commented on it.

As far as the original poster's question goes, the second option of a dual wielding paladin is possible, but a paladin does not gain access to TWF. In that case, the defense style is the only viable one, since the dueling style does not work with dual wielding. Corran's advice of picking up a style with the intention of switching to later levels works as well. In my opinion, sticking with TWF can be fun. Optimization discussions might talk about it lagging behind other styles for damage at an additional cost of action economy, but it is not an issue for me. Rolling more attacks at the table can be fun, and additional rolls means an opportunity to compensate for a bad roll. In addition, a paladin's smite can add some extra punch to the multiple attacks.

If you want to add a two level dip in fighter, then the ideal point is somewhere after taking the fifth paladin level. One of the benefits of action surge is the ability to deliver martial burst damage by unleashing attacks with a second action. In order to get that benefit, you will need to wait until the paladin's extra attack feature kicks in. You can take the first level of fighter right after the rogue levels to pick up a fighting style, then take five paladin levels before picking up the second level of fighter. I recommend the first level of fighter before the first level of paladin because second wind heals more hit points than lay on hands. Also, divine sense might not get much use, but a fighting style can provide a benefit to a rogue.

[greenstone]

Arcane trickster 6 and paladin 6 gives you third level spell slots to smite with.

To give a counter opinion, Paladin 12 gives you more third level slots to smite with, as well as 1d8 radiant damage applying to all hits without spending slots.

And immunity to fear.

And three ASIs instead of two.

Multiclassing is cool, but don't feel you must do it. It comes with tradeoffs.