Wall of Water rulings?

[RoboEmperor]

Wall of Water, sandstorm p.128

1. How high/thick must the Wall of Water be to trap them and force swim checks? Flat 10ft? Double their size? Equal their size? I have a hard time imagining a colossal creature being trapped by a 10ft high wall of water that's also only half a foot thick.
2. Wall of Water is (S), does this mean instead of a wall of water I can create a plane of water? As in turn the entire combat area into a pool of water that is half a foot high (or higher).
3. If 2 is true, do they get a swim check to completely move out of the massive pool area? What if instead of half a foot high, I make it 5ft high? 10ft high?
4. If 2 is true... does everyone in the pool trapped in the water and unable to move without swim checks?

edit: SpC changed the spell so my question is irrelevant now.

[Crake]

Wall of Water, sandstorm p.128

1. How high/thick must the Wall of Water be to trap them and force swim checks? Flat 10ft? Double their size? Equal their size? I have a hard time imagining a colossal creature being trapped by a 10ft high wall of water that's also only half a foot thick.
2. Wall of Water is (S), does this mean instead of a wall of water I can create a plane of water? As in turn the entire combat area into a pool of water that is half a foot high (or higher).
3. If 2 is true, do they get a swim check to completely move out of the massive pool area? What if instead of half a foot high, I make it 5ft high? 10ft high?
4. If 2 is true... does everyone in the pool trapped in the water and unable to move without swim checks?


1. If the creature is large enough to step over it, or otherwise pass over it without passing through it, then it's probably fine. The foot thick part is a bit wierd, the only explanation I can come up with for that is that the wall of water engulfs them, resulting in the character being caught in a "bubble" of water around them, but the spell functions as it does.
2. Considering it says in the first line of the description that it's a vertical wall of water, no, the wall must be a vertical plane
3. & 4. 2 is not true

[RoboEmperor]

1. If the creature is large enough to step over it, or otherwise pass over it without passing through it, then it's probably fine. The foot thick part is a bit wierd, the only explanation I can come up with for that is that the wall of water engulfs them, resulting in the character being caught in a "bubble" of water around them, but the spell functions as it does.
2. Considering it says in the first line of the description that it's a vertical wall of water, no, the wall must be a vertical plane
3. & 4. 2 is not true

1. The 30ft x 30ft colossal creature has exactly 1 square inside the wall of water for some reason (I cast it on that spot), does he need swim checks to move?

2. Its says its a vertical wall whose area is up to one 10ft square/level, so as long as it is 1ft thick, I could make it 5ft high and 20ft long, 2ft high and 50ft long. Then what if I put these side by side? If I do that, at caster level 7, I can essentially make the wall 7ft thick, 2ft high, and 50ft long, which makes some kind of flat wall. It's still a 2ft high 1ft thick vertical wall, just put side by side so close together its touching.

So I don't think the "vertical" part of any shapeable wall spells mean anything much really. Hell it could even be a 1ft high, 1/2ft thick, 100ft long vertical wall side by side to be 1ft high, 7ft thick, and 100ft long "vertical" wall. Worst case scenario I say the walls are 0.01ft spaced apart or something so they aren't really touching.

Unless ofc there's something explicitly saying I can't do that :(

[eggynack]

Worth note is the fact that wall of water was updated in the spell compendium. Unfortunately, the new version is somewhat worse, and the main way in which it's worse is that the no movement without swimming thing was toned way down.

[gogogome]

If I was DM, I'd say...

Height of water = Height of creature, works as described in spell.
Height of water < Height of creature, difficult terrain rules.
Height of water < Ankles of creature, no effect

And I also believe any shapeable wall can be a plane, be it wall of stone, wall of ice, wall of water, even wall of Iron.

The "vertical" part of the spell i believe only matters to wall of stone, which explicitly says it doesn't have to be vertical and can be ramps and bridges. Which means all walls other than wall of stone have to be firmly grounded. So yes you can make a plane of water, but the water is not floating, it has to touch the ground and you can't use it to swim across a giant chasm.

[RoboEmperor]

Worth note is the fact that wall of water was updated in the spell compendium. Unfortunately, the new version is somewhat worse, and the main way in which it's worse is that the no movement without swimming thing was toned way down.

Mother ******. I was so hyped up on how I prefer the SpC version, only to find out it's no longer on the cleric list. Mother goddamn ****.

..........

I am really angry right now.

[RoboEmperor]

I made a thread debating whether SpC can remove a spell from a class's spell list or not. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533118-Is-Wall-of-Water-on-the-cleric-spell-list-or-not-(Sandstorm-v-s-SpC)

Anyways I like the new Wall of Water over the old one. Sure the BFC power has been hampered from Awesome to Worthless, because now it just reduces movement by half, no save, which Solid Fog already does except without a chance to overcome it with a swim check, but the area has been increased 10 fold so you're basically drowning the entire battlefield in water and characters who can't swim up due to heavy armor will drown. I love it because it combos really well with the Water Elementals you get from the Water Devotion feat, and that was the whole reason I was pursuing this spell.

Hopefully my other thread will prove clerics can cast Wall of Water, and I'll be mega happy with my cleric.

Nothing says awesome like a human cleric summoning a total of 9 small water elementals at level 1-2! A contender for one of the strongest level 1 characters in the game, because even with the Water Mastery's crippling -4 penalty, 9 meatshields/flankers at level 1 is nothing to sneeze at because this is one of the few spellcasters who will not run out of resources at level 1.

[Crake]

I made a thread debating whether SpC can remove a spell from a class's spell list or not. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533118-Is-Wall-of-Water-on-the-cleric-spell-list-or-not-(Sandstorm-v-s-SpC)

Anyways I like the new Wall of Water over the old one. Sure the BFC power has been hampered from Awesome to Worthless, because now it just reduces movement by half, no save, which Solid Fog already does except without a chance to overcome it with a swim check, but the area has been increased 10 fold so you're basically drowning the entire battlefield in water and characters who can't swim up due to heavy armor will drown. I love it because it combos really well with the Water Elementals you get from the Water Devotion feat, and that was the whole reason I was pursuing this spell.

Hopefully my other thread will prove clerics can cast Wall of Water, and I'll be mega happy with my cleric.

Nothing says awesome like a human cleric summoning a total of 9 small water elementals at level 1-2! A contender for one of the strongest level 1 characters in the game, because even with the Water Mastery's crippling -4 penalty, 9 meatshields/flankers at level 1 is nothing to sneeze at because this is one of the few spellcasters who will not run out of resources at level 1.

Can you explain to me how you're getting 9 water elementals at level 1-2? Did you assume that water devotion could be fueled by turn attempts? Because it can't:


Page 64 – Water Devotion
[Deletion]
Remove the second “Special” entry.

[Fouredged Sword]

Can you explain to me how you're getting 9 water elementals at level 1-2? Did you assume that water devotion could be fueled by turn attempts? Because it can't:

There is still a general statement that you can spend turn attempts to power devotion feats on a 1 turn attempt for 1 use basis, I think of page 56. Specific overrules general, so unless the devotion feat specifically states a different exchange rate or that is expressly cannot be done, you can spend 1 turn attempt to get a second use of a devotion feat.

[Crake]

There is still a general statement that you can spend turn attempts to power devotion feats on a 1 turn attempt for 1 use basis, I think of page 56. Specific overrules general, so unless the devotion feat specifically states a different exchange rate or that is expressly cannot be done, you can spend 1 turn attempt to get a second use of a devotion feat.

Turns out someonenoone11 made a dedicated thread for this topic here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533009-Why-d-they-errata-out-Water-Devotion-s-Turn-Rebuke-uses) where I believe Troacctid refutes that argument quite thoroughly, best not to derail this thread any further.

[RoboEmperor]

Turns out someonenoone11 made a dedicated thread for this topic here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533009-Why-d-they-errata-out-Water-Devotion-s-Turn-Rebuke-uses) where I believe Troacctid refutes that argument quite thoroughly, best not to derail this thread any further.

Go ahead, derail it, I'm done with this thread XD.

Yes I was planning on using turn attempts to fuel water devotion, and after troacctid pointed out I was wrong, I cried like a baby before getting super angry and started swearing at WotC before spending a few hours thinking of ways to beat the errata.

I guess it really does destroy early game power balance which is why WotC removed it. Late game it's absolute crap because wasting a standard action summoning a water elemental who has -4 to attack and damage instead of a more useful summon is crap, but I guess lategame balance is not the only thing to be fixated about.


There is still a general statement that you can spend turn attempts to power devotion feats on a 1 turn attempt for 1 use basis, I think of page 56. Specific overrules general, so unless the devotion feat specifically states a different exchange rate or that is expressly cannot be done, you can spend 1 turn attempt to get a second use of a devotion feat.

They didn't remove the other Devotion's 1 daily use for 1 turning/rebuke special rule. They singled out Water Devotion, which makes it pretty clear they wanted to kill it.

I can make an argument saying "General Rule says I can turn my turn/rebuke into additional uses, and because the lack of a specific rule saying I can't, I can", but any DM who uses even a modicum of RAI will say no.

[gogogome]

Go ahead, derail it, I'm done with this thread XD.

Yes I was planning on using turn attempts to fuel water devotion, and after troacctid pointed out I was wrong, I cried like a baby before getting super angry and started swearing at WotC before spending a few hours thinking of ways to beat the errata.

I guess it really does destroy early game power balance which is why WotC removed it. Late game it's absolute crap because wasting a standard action summoning a water elemental who has -4 to attack and damage instead of a more useful summon is crap, but I guess lategame balance is not the only thing to be fixated about.



They didn't remove the other Devotion's 1 daily use for 1 turning/rebuke special rule. They singled out Water Devotion, which makes it pretty clear they wanted to kill it.

I can make an argument saying "General Rule says I can turn my turn/rebuke into additional uses, and because the lack of a specific rule saying I can't, I can", but any DM who uses even a modicum of RAI will say no.

I noticed you posted the same thing on this thread and the other thread. Maybe you should keep this thread on topic so you don't have the same discussion in two different threads.