Tenser's Transformation

[PeteNutButter]

As an avid gish player, I'm pretty salty that this classic spell hasn't made it's appearance in 5e. (Hopefully Xanathar can give it some love.)

Love of the idea aside, I'm afraid it will get made and be a bit on the weak side. It's hard to balance a spell that effectively makes you imitate the fighter in the party, without either stepping on the fighter's toes, or being just a really poor option for a level 11+ wizard. So Tenser's Transformation can't make the caster a better fighter, but also can't be a terrible option in comparison to things like Disintegrate, Globe of Invulnerability, Magic Jar, Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, etc. It's a pretty tall order, and a fine line to walk.

Here is my take at it, and prolonged discussion on why below.

Tenser's Transformation
6th level Transmutation[Wizard and Sorcerer]
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (A special potion that costs 250 gold which is consumed in the casting of this spell)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

You imbibe a potion that transforms you into a virtual fighting machine--stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled in combat. Your mindset changes so that you relish combat, and cannot cast spells for the duration of this spell. You gain the following benefits for the duration of the spell:
-You are proficient with all simple and martial weapons
-Whenever you take the attack action, you can make up to 3 attacks
-You gain 25 temporary hit points
-You have advantage on all strength, dexterity, and constitution ability checks and saving throws
-If your strength is below 19, it becomes 19.


The old spell gave huge boosts to physical stats, while giving full BAB. Since BAB isn't a thing the new spell should give extra attack, as that is what the full BAB would give. Unfortunately, extra attack alone isn't enough to even make the spell comparable to Haste. I'm thinking in order to make this viable, it'll have to give the same amount of attacks that a fighter would have at that level: 3. That way it is also not useless for a bladesinger, or MC wizard that has extra attack.

The old spell also gave a solid AC boost of +4. My first thought was there is no way that could fly in 5e, with it's bounded accuracy, but since the spell turns off the ability to cast spells it may be a rather balanced number. Comparing the +4 AC to a bladesinging wizard with haste, they would have +2 AC from Haste, and at that level have plenty of spell slots to spam Shield for a total of +7. With all that in mind, using a 6th level slot to get 4 instead of 7 seems pretty balanced.

The old spell gave extra hit points of 2 per caster level, but since 5e doesn't have caster level we just give the difference in hit points as temporary for a 12th level fighter to wizard, that's 24 rounded to 25 so it's a round number.

Overall the spell lets you act as a fighter with 3 attacks and only a +4 str bonus. A normal fighter at that level should have +5 str/dex, and the support of their subclass as well as things like action surge, and likely feats and fighting style(s) to support their combat abilities.

What do you guys think of this spell as is? Would you cast it? Is it overpowered? How would you change it? And do you expect to see a version of this spell in Xanathar's?

[Khrysaes]

As an avid gish player, I'm pretty salty that this classic spell hasn't made it's appearance in 5e. (Hopefully Xanathar can give it some love.)

Love of the idea aside, I'm afraid it will get made and be a bit on the weak side. It's hard to balance a spell that effectively makes you imitate the fighter in the party, without either stepping on the fighter's toes, or being just a really poor option for a level 11+ wizard. So Tenser's Transformation can't make the caster a better fighter, but also can't be a terrible option in comparison to things like Disintegrate, Globe of Invulnerability, Magic Jar, Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, etc. It's a pretty tall order, and a fine line to walk.

Here is my take at it, and prolonged discussion on why below.

Tenser's Transformation
6th level Transmutation[Wizard and Sorcerer]
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (A special potion that costs 250 gold which is consumed in the casting of this spell)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

You imbibe a potion that transforms you into a virtual fighting machine--stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled in combat. Your mindset changes so that you relish combat, and cannot cast spells for the duration of this spell. You gain the following benefits for the duration of the spell:
-You are proficient with all simple and martial weapons
-Whenever you take the attack action, you can make up to 3 attacks
-You gain 25 temporary hit points
-You have advantage on all strength, dexterity, and constitution ability checks and saving throws
-If your strength is below 19, it becomes 19.


The old spell gave huge boosts to physical stats, while giving full BAB. Since BAB isn't a thing the new spell should give extra attack, as that is what the full BAB would give. Unfortunately, extra attack alone isn't enough to even make the spell comparable to Haste. I'm thinking in order to make this viable, it'll have to give the same amount of attacks that a fighter would have at that level: 3. That way it is also not useless for a bladesinger, or MC wizard that has extra attack.

The old spell also gave a solid AC boost of +4. My first thought was there is no way that could fly in 5e, with it's bounded accuracy, but since the spell turns off the ability to cast spells it may be a rather balanced number. Comparing the +4 AC to a bladesinging wizard with haste, they would have +2 AC from Haste, and at that level have plenty of spell slots to spam Shield for a total of +7. With all that in mind, using a 6th level slot to get 4 instead of 7 seems pretty balanced.

The old spell gave extra hit points of 2 per caster level, but since 5e doesn't have caster level we just give the difference in hit points as temporary for a 12th level fighter to wizard, that's 24 rounded to 25 so it's a round number.

Overall the spell lets you act as a fighter with 3 attacks and only a +4 str bonus. A normal fighter at that level should have +5 str/dex, and the support of their subclass as well as things like action surge, and likely feats and fighting style(s) to support their combat abilities.


What do you guys think of this spell as is? Would you cast it? Is it overpowered? How would you change it? And do you expect to see a version of this spell in Xanathar's?

I would make the temp HP increase with Spell level for upcasting, say 25/30/35. And maybe if cast at 9th level, get that 4th attack, although that would be 3 levels before fighter, it would be a serious investment in either bard or wizard to get it... or at least enough to get 6th level spells. Instead of just increasing the Str or Dex, perhaps enable things to happen using the casting stat while the spell is active, say attack.

[JNAProductions]

I'd remove the advantage on saving throws. That makes it too hard to be knocked out of it when you're becoming nearly as good a Fighter as the Fighter.

[xroads]

I'd keep the duration, but remove the concentration requirement. And maybe add something like "You are unable to continue concentrating on any active spell you have."

I realize concentration is one of 5e's best tools for balancing spells. But in this circumstance, I don't think it's necessary.

[JNAProductions]

I'd keep the duration, but remove the concentration requirement. And maybe add something like "You are unable to continue concentrating on any active spell you have."

I realize concentration is one of 5e's best tools for balancing spells. But in this circumstance, I don't think it's necessary.

No, KEEP Concentration. That means you might get knocked out of it, which is a good balance.

[nickl_2000]

No, KEEP Concentration. That means you might get knocked out of it, which is a good balance.

This absolutely needs concentration and removal of advantage for saving throws.

I feel like the three attacks is almost to good as well, you get this spell at 11th level which is the same time an actual fighter gets their third attack. So, this spell is making you almost as good of a fighter as someone who focused their life on fighting. It also gives you even more attacks than a Paladin and a Ranger, thus better in martial than them. I think making it two attacks instead of three or pushing it to a level 7 spell would help make the fighter stay on top.

Also, it sounds like the casting of the spell makes a potion. Then later you can drink the potion at any point. Or is it that you make a special potion and drink it during the casting of this spell and it happens immediately on casting? If it's the second, then it makes sense. If it's the first, absolutely no way without an expiration date of 24 hours at most.

[JNAProductions]

No, the potion is just a material component that is consumed when you cast the spell. (It used to require a Potion of Bull's Strength.)

Making the potion ahead of time is totally fine, since it needs the spell to do anything.

[Unoriginal]

I got an idea, why don't we add a Battlemaster's Manoeuvre that gives the Fighter most of the advantages of being a Wizard, including full spellcasting of the appropriate level?

Said no one ever

[PeteNutButter]

This absolutely needs concentration and removal of advantage for saving throws.

I feel like the three attacks is almost to good as well, you get this spell at 11th level which is the same time an actual fighter gets their third attack. So, this spell is making you almost as good of a fighter as someone who focused their life on fighting. It also gives you even more attacks than a Paladin and a Ranger, thus better in martial than them. I think making it two attacks instead of three or pushing it to a level 7 spell would help make the fighter stay on top.


Two attacks would be too weak, weaker than haste, and wouldn't help anyone who had extra attack, such as a bladesinger. It is pretty weak IMO as a 6th level spell compared to the wizard's other options.


No, KEEP Concentration. That means you might get knocked out of it, which is a good balance.

I think that'd be fine. I'll just dump the advantage on saves altogether. EDITED the OP.


I got an idea, why don't we add a Battlemaster's Manoeuvre that gives the Fighter most of the advantages of being a Wizard, including full spellcasting of the appropriate level?

Said no one ever

It's an old spell. It lets a wizard act like a fighter for 1 minute a day, which by the time you get it is probably one of the worse things a high level wizard can do. It still is significantly weaker than a fighter with the risk of being knocked out of concentration, and end up standing in the middle of a fight as a squishy wizard.

Also it's magic.

[Unoriginal]

It's an old spell.

So? Old doesn't mean inherently mean good. Otherwise we wouldn't play 5e.



It lets a wizard act like a fighter for 1 minute a day, which by the time you get it is probably one of the worse things a high level wizard can do. It still is significantly weaker than a fighter with the risk of being knocked out of concentration, and end up standing in the middle of a fight as a squishy wizard.

Why would anyone take it, then?




Also it's magic.

So?

[PhantomSoul]

Two attacks would be too weak, weaker than haste, and wouldn't help anyone who had extra attack, such as a bladesinger. It is pretty weak IMO as a 6th level spell compared to the wizard's other options.

I was thinking it could be like a (modified) version of Haste in that respect: you gain one extra attack. Unlike Haste, I expect it should be tied directly to the Attack Action; "When you use your Action to Attack, you can do one additional hit." Though someone else casting Haste on you could be a problem; would you get an extra attack as part of the Haste Action? If so, and as written I expect it would be interpreted that way, it might be good to specify otherwise explicitly.

[PeteNutButter]

So? Old doesn't mean inherently mean good. Otherwise we wouldn't play 5e.

No it isn't an inherently good idea, but it is a concept I like, and should be able to be viable without being overpowered.


Why would anyone take it, then?
I'd take it because I just think it's cool. If flavor has no role in your character decisions then avoid the spell, along with probably the majority of character options. Most things are not optimal, but still viable.


I was thinking it could be like a (modified) version of Haste in that respect: you gain one extra attack. Unlike Haste, I expect it should be tied directly to the Attack Action; "When you use your Action to Attack, you can do one additional hit." Though someone else casting Haste on you could be a problem; would you get an extra attack as part of the Haste Action? If so, and as written I expect it would be interpreted that way, it might be good to specify otherwise explicitly.

That's a good idea. That way it would scale with the bladesinger, but not make the fighter/abjurer go from one attack to three. It could be "Once per turn, whenever you take the attack action, you may make one additional attack."