Speculation Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight. [Archive]

Aett_Thorn

2017-08-11, 11:48 AM

Easy_Lee

2017-08-11, 11:53 AM

Aett_Thorn covered it. The archetype doesn't gain new features or resource, just alternative affects added on to existing resource features. Compare to BM, champion, and EK, all of which gain brand new features and two of which gain new resource pools with which to use those features.

Specter

2017-08-11, 11:56 AM

I think it ages well. At level 20, you can heal 85.5avg hit points with a bonus action, and use Inspiring Surge twice. That's cool.

Sariel Vailo

2017-08-11, 12:03 PM

I like it i guess its fun

Beechgnome

2017-08-11, 12:06 PM

I like the theory behind the PDK, but not its execution. It just ends up being too clunky for my liking.

My problem is that the times where you need to use Second Wind aren't necessarily when your party needs you to use Rallying Cry. Same with Inspiring Surge. I might use Action Surge because it's a great time for me to use it, but what if my team isn't in the right spots to make use of it? Meanwhile, what if the team really needs a top-off heal, but I'm fine. Then I need to "waste" my Second Wind to heal them, when I might need it later.

Royal Envoy is pretty useful, though, and Bulwark can help, but is very situational.

Yeah Ive played it and this is what's frustrating. I suppose in a subtle way it makes you change your strategies to save wind/surge for when you really need them and so coordinate better - like a leader of men should I suppose - but it weakens them. Having said that, if you load up on feats or abilities that add other bonus action options it can be fun to play
I had an orc banneret with shield master. Bonus action was either dashing towards enemy (orc Aggressive) bashing them prone or Rallying cry. Always useful.

Aett_Thorn

2017-08-11, 12:06 PM

I think it ages well. At level 20, you can heal 85.5avg hit points with a bonus action, and use Inspiring Surge twice. That's cool.

Where are you getting your numbers from on the first point? I'm reading up to three allies, and each heals your Fighter level. That's 3x20 max, for 60 HP.

Specter

2017-08-11, 12:08 PM

Where are you getting your numbers from on the first point? I'm reading up to three allies, and each heals your Fighter level. That's 3x20 max, for 60 HP.

And then you add the healing from Second Wind (1d10 + fighter level).

Aett_Thorn

2017-08-11, 12:09 PM

And then you add the healing from Second Wind (1d10 + fighter level).

Ah, yes. I wasn't counting that, I guess because it was part of the base feature that any fighter could do. But you are right to count that in there. My bad.

Naanomi

2017-08-11, 12:12 PM

jas61292

2017-08-11, 12:22 PM

I really like the concept, but I think it is a bit weak.

The Rallying Cry is neat, but not sharing the full Second Wind makes it very underwhelming until higher levels (where it is still underwhelming, just not very), something you really don't want for your first real feature. Yes, the fact that it effects up to three creatures is nice, but healing a whopping 3 damage is absolutely pathetic at anything other than first level. It would be different if this could bring back up fallen allies, but as they must be able to see or hear you, that is not the case.

Inspiring Surge, on the other hand, is really freaking cool, but is doesn't come until level 10, and when all the earlier features are so underwhelming, it is just hard to justify waiting that long.

Finally Bulwark is just really bad. It would be bad even as a level 3 feature, but it is especially bad considering when it comes. Granting allies second chance saves is actually really great, but only being available against things that also target you AND you also failed and wanted to use Indomitable against means that it will almost never come up. Giving a secondary set of Indomitable uses only for allies that you can spend any time would be fantastic. But as is, this is practically a waste of a feature.

Now, that all said, I really like the theme of the class, and I love the level 7 Royal Envoy feature. There is plenty good here, but the mechanics just don't work out that well. Make Rallying Cry share the full Second Wind healing and suddenly you have a martial that can be a respectable backup healer, and you have a class decent enough to be worth making it to level 10 in for its real star feature. And make Bulwark actually allow you to help allies in situations where they need it by allowing you to use it any time against any save they have to make (with some reasonable range and/or sight restrictions) and you actually have a reason to continue on to higher levels.

Aett_Thorn

2017-08-11, 12:31 PM

Works fine from what I have seen; kind of wish the shared 'Action surge' would allow spellcasting, I have seen a situation with caster heavy AL group where it felt kind of silly to surge and the best you can do is the knowledge Cleric or
Lore Bard can take a Potshot

That's one of my other reasons for not really liking it that much: it seems very reliant on your party makeup to make good use of it. If you've got a Rogue in your party, Inspiring Surge can be great! If you're the only martial character, it sucks. That feels rather wonky to me. Class features (for the most part) shouldn't be that reliant on party makeup.

Also, compare this to Commander's Strike: "When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can forgo one of your attacks and use a bonus action to direct one of your companions to strike. When you do so, choose a friendly creature who can see or hear you and expend one superiority die.That creature can immediately use its reaction to make one weapon attack, adding the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll."

So at level 10, you get to make one attack, and you give up your second and your bonus action to allow another character to make one attack, and if they hit, they get some added damage to it. Sure, it's not great because of the action economy expense, but you can use this up to four times per short rest at that level, and you'd giving the other person extra damage if they hit. Compare this to the once per short rest Inspiring Surge, and it seems a bit weak.

jas61292

2017-08-11, 12:38 PM

That's one of my other reasons for not really liking it that much: it seems very reliant on your party makeup to make good use of it. If you've got a Rogue in your party, Inspiring Surge can be great! If you're the only martial character, it sucks. That feels rather wonky to me. Class features (for the most part) shouldn't be that reliant on party makeup.

Also, compare this to Commander's Strike: "When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can forgo one of your attacks and use a bonus action to direct one of your companions to strike. When you do so, choose a friendly creature who can see or hear you and expend one superiority die.That creature can immediately use its reaction to make one weapon attack, adding the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll."

So at level 10, you get to make one attack, and you give up your second and your bonus action to allow another character to make one attack, and if they hit, they get some added damage to it. Sure, it's not great because of the action economy expense, but you can use this up to four times per short rest at that level, and you'd giving the other person extra damage if they hit. Compare this to the once per short rest Inspiring Surge, and it seems a bit weak.

This is true. I do think the action economy advantage is definitely worth a ton, but it is certainly not strong enough compared to something gotten 7 levels earlier and can be used many times more often.

That being said, I would not want it changed to allow spellcasting, without generally changing how it works, because a spell is far stronger at that level than any one single attack. Definitely would be hard to balance, but I can definitely see expanding this in some way.

Aett_Thorn

2017-08-11, 12:42 PM

This is true. I do think the action economy advantage is definitely worth a ton, but it is certainly not strong enough compared to something gotten 7 levels earlier and can be used many times more often.

That being said, I would not want it changed to allow spellcasting, without generally changing how it works, because a spell is far stronger at that level than any one single attack. Definitely would be hard to balance, but I can definitely see expanding this in some way.

What about allowing them to cast one cantrip, instead of allowing them to cast just any spell? It's still probably better than an attack from some classes later in the game, but probably isn't that imbalanced.

Temperjoke

2017-08-11, 12:42 PM

Easy_Lee

2017-08-11, 12:59 PM

Coidzor

2017-08-11, 01:03 PM

I don't hate it, but I do find it underwhelming and disappointing.

Mith

2017-08-11, 01:18 PM

Aett_Thorn

2017-08-11, 02:57 PM

If one were to separate the additional bonus from theoriginal features, would that work? So you get Second Wind and Rallying Cry. Allow the Banneret to do both as one action, but great them as separate resources.

I actually think that this might really help it out a lot. It would certainly make it feel more like a Warlord-type character than one in which you're worrying about when to use powers to maximize both your and your party's effectiveness.

jas61292

2017-08-11, 03:27 PM

If one were to separate the additional bonus from theoriginal features, would that work? So you get Second Wind and Rallying Cry. Allow the Banneret to do both as one action, but great them as separate resources.

That would be nice, but I think Rallying Cry would need far more of a bonus than that. The damage it heals is absolutely pathetic, when, as the level 3 feature it should be the main thing that attracts you to the subclass. A battle master gets 4 maneuvers per short rest that allow him to do cool things he never could do before, and do more damage too. A Champion has a higher chance to crit on every attack they make from then on. An Eldritch Knight learns how to cast spells, including some cantrips which it can use at will.

A Banneret.... can heal up to three people an amazing 3 HP... once per short rest. And only when he is already using a feature to heal himself. Getting rid of that last part, the need to heal yourself at the same time, would certainly help, but it won't change the fact that what Rallying Cry actually does is incredibly awful compared to every other subclass

One idea I had is to change it so you only effect one creature at a time, but it is not tied to your second wind, and you essentially just use your bonus action to give another creature the full advantage of a Second Wind. Maybe limited to three per rest, rather than the old three at once.

archetypex

2017-08-11, 03:33 PM

What annoys me is having to sing "I Love You, You Love Me" on every Charisma check...

Aett_Thorn

2017-08-11, 03:37 PM

What annoys me is having to sing "I Love You, You Love Me" on every Charisma check...

That's the Purple Dinosaur Knight. I think it's a Bard subclass, with all of the singing and all. :smallbiggrin:

Blacky the Blackball

2017-08-11, 04:28 PM

Personally, I just think it's the name that makes people not think about it, cause it's a Forgotten Realms thing. They should have called it Banneret and then mentioned that in Forgotten Realms these are the Purple Dragon Knights, instead of the other way around like they did.

Yeah. I have no real opinion on the mechanics of the sub-class. My dislike of it is that it's too tied in to the Forgotten Realms setting.

I prefer my classes to be more setting-neutral.

Mith

2017-08-11, 05:10 PM

That would be nice, but I think Rallying Cry would need far more of a bonus than that. The damage it heals is absolutely pathetic, when, as the level 3 feature it should be the main thing that attracts you to the subclass. A battle master gets 4 maneuvers per short rest that allow him to do cool things he never could do before, and do more damage too. A Champion has a higher chance to crit on every attack they make from then on. An Eldritch Knight learns how to cast spells, including some cantrips which it can use at will.

A Banneret.... can heal up to three people an amazing 3 HP... once per short rest. And only when he is already using a feature to heal himself. Getting rid of that last part, the need to heal yourself at the same time, would certainly help, but it won't change the fact that what Rallying Cry actually does is incredibly awful compared to every other subclass

One idea I had is to change it so you only effect one creature at a time, but it is not tied to your second wind, and you essentially just use your bonus action to give another creature the full advantage of a Second Wind. Maybe limited to three per rest, rather than the old three at once.

That would be useful. I may make that suggestion if Banneret comes up in play.

KorvinStarmast

2017-08-11, 05:46 PM

Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.
No. We had him over for dinner last night, but when she took her helmet off we realized we'd made an unwarranted assumption on gender. Luckily, we have fine spirits and in short order conviviality was running amok in the parlor. (Our dogs sniffed a lot at the armor, and she smelled a bit of saddle and harness, but she was a fantastic dinner guest). We hope to have her over the next time we do a brisket smoking party. She said she might bring a few squires along.

I like the theory behind the PDK, but not its execution. It just ends up being too clunky for my liking. Yeah, it's a little campaign dependent for our group. Our fighter chose EK. He's very happy with it.
What annoys me is having to sing "I Love You, You Love Me" on every Charisma check... A dragon by any other name might be a dinosaur.

Ninja-Radish

2017-08-11, 06:26 PM

Personally I could care less about fluff, it's all about mechanics for me, and the PDK is mechanically awful. The 3rd level ability is extremely underpowered and borderline worthless. There are better classes if you want to be the party face, so the level 7 ability is useless as well. The only good ability PDK has is the one that allows you to share your Action Surge. But that's pretty high level.

Fighter is unfortunately full of mediocre to outright terrible subclasses.

Easy_Lee

2017-08-11, 06:35 PM

There are better classes if you want to be the party face, so the level 7 ability is useless as well.

Wanted to reply specifically to this. That's a bit like saying that shadow monk is useless, because [insert class here] is better at being sneaky. Suppose you're in a group that needs a party face but could also use a fighter. In that case, a fighter archetype that can also function as party face would be useful.

The trouble with PDK 7 is that expertise in persuasion is not very useful. Expertise in all CHA skills would be one thing, but having it for just one is too little for an archetype feature that's supposed to rival remarkable athlete.

GlenSmash!

2017-08-11, 06:44 PM

The trouble with PDK 7 is that expertise in persuasion is not very useful. Expertise in all CHA skills would be one thing, but having it for just one is too little for an archetype feature that's supposed to rival remarkable athlete.

All CHA checks seems a bit much to me. Maybe Half-Prof to all CHA checks and Proficiency in CHA Saves?

Easy_Lee

2017-08-11, 07:09 PM

All CHA checks seems a bit much to me. Maybe Half-Prof to all CHA checks and Proficiency in CHA Saves?

That would also be an interesting option. Or maybe just advantage on charisma checks. Point is, it ought to be stronger than expertise in one skill. Compare this to the EK or champion 7, and it looks weak.

On the other hand, compared to BM 7 it's good. So who knows what WotC is thinking?

Specter

2017-08-11, 08:46 PM

Now that I've reread 3.5's PDK, I think it was always meant to be a Paladin/Bard. Fighter is a hard chassis to put it into.

mephnick

2017-08-11, 10:16 PM

I'd have to feel something for it to hate it. I don't think of it at all.

DracoKnight

2017-08-12, 06:20 AM

In my personal opinion, the subclass is terrible and should have had one or two more drafts before going to print. It definitely could've benefited from the feedback that the UA subclasses got late last year/early this year.

Furthermore, it should have just been called "The Banneret" with Purple Dragon Knight being a background available to Fighters and Paladins (at DM discretion maybe other martial classes as well, depending on upon their version of the realms).

Sir cryosin

2017-08-12, 07:52 AM

It's just weird to me as it's looks fun to play and you wished someone in party to play. But if suffers from what the champion suffers from It's lack luster. I can see we're it could get more fun if you add feats. But then your using ASI's on feats and not upping a state you might need.

JBPuffin

2017-08-12, 08:01 AM

My play experience was relegated to a game with practically no combat (sister DMed, basically just rode the rails of an entirely insane story), but I like it. Could it have been better? Sure, just like Commanding Strike could suck less (a maneuver just doesn't do the concept of a warlord justice...nice try, though), but it's on the fighter's chassis, and when I want to play something simple that can provide some healing on the side, it's a nice choice. You get some extra usage out of the abilities you already have while still being a fighter and swinging a sword a bunch of times.

Come to think of it, Banneret+the maneuver feat does get you a warlord approximation, which I guess is what some people have been saying from the get-go. Cool.

As for the PDK vs Banneret stuff - FR is the primary setting now, in the same way Points of Light is 4e's default. You don't have to play the setting if you don't want to, but things will be marketed from the FR standpoint, and the names will reflect that. (On that note, bladesinger? We have a bard, could you not have done something not song-based? Does the concept even work outside the song metaphor?)

Logosloki

2017-08-12, 08:11 AM

Hate is also a strong word for what I feel, which is more akin to exasperated sigh.

The idea is cool. Whereas the champion is Fighter+ by strengthening the Fighter's passive abilities, the purple dragon knight is Fighter+ by strengthening the Fighter's active abilities.

Fighter's have three active abilities and each of them have their own issues. All of them have only one use at level 11 (a level that I have picked up from anecdotal evidence to be one of the natural end points for a campaign). One of them never gets another use (second wind), one of them gets a second use just when casters are getting their 9th level spells (Action surge) and one of them doesn't come online until level 9 and gains two more charges at levels 13 and 17 respectively (indomitable).

BillyBobShorton

2017-08-12, 09:55 AM

If they remove the word "Knight", and changed the mechanics accordingly, it could be a fun REALLY fun character.

DM: "So, everyone, we have a new player with us tonight. His name is Stan. Stan will be playing a Purple Dragon."

mephnick

2017-08-12, 10:06 AM

In my personal opinion, the subclass is terrible and should have had one or two more drafts before going to print. It definitely could've benefited from the feedback that the UA subclasses got late last year/early this year.
.

I'm really afraid of what could have been withput the UA surveys for Xanathers Guide. The Sword Coast options really needed some community input because almost all of them are subpar.

Human Paragon 3

2017-08-12, 10:54 AM

I hated it at first because the powers seem so underwhelming, but reading this thread is making me want to play one.

Play this if:

1) You like having a character that's challenging to use right, but the payoff can be super
2) Your play style is "leader" but you like smashing face
3) You have multiple other martial characters in the party (barb, rogue, fight, pal, rgr)
4) Your party lacks a primary healer and you don't want to play one

I can see this guy in a party with a barbarian, a rogue, and another fighter and being the party's leader and strategist. By being a master of tactics, you give your team a huge martial boost, as opposed to a bard who just tosses around inspiration dice and casts spells. Easy mode.

ZorroGames

2017-08-12, 12:45 PM

My first response was, "No thanks."

Not horrible but not appealing to my more direct action "smash/spell it if the party face has no success in talking it to submission." That is just me but I can see the appeal to a different style if player.

ZorroGames

2017-08-12, 12:49 PM

That would also be an interesting option. Or maybe just advantage on charisma checks. Point is, it ought to be stronger than expertise in one skill. Compare this to the EK or champion 7, and it looks weak.

On the other hand, compared to BM 7 it's good. So who knows what WotC is thinking?

Unfounded assumption that "what were they thinking" thing.

Temperjoke

2017-08-12, 01:20 PM

As for the PDK vs Banneret stuff - FR is the primary setting now, in the same way Points of Light is 4e's default. You don't have to play the setting if you don't want to, but things will be marketed from the FR standpoint, and the names will reflect that. (On that note, bladesinger? We have a bard, could you not have done something not song-based? Does the concept even work outside the song metaphor?)

I get that FR is the primary setting, and I have no problems with them spending a paragraph or two in the class description explaining what it is in the FR setting. But look at the other classes that they introduced in the same book. All of the others are generic-named, and none are named for a specific group in a specific setting. So they deliberately broke pattern with this particular class, and I think that this naming convention turns people off from using it, since it's named something specific in the realms. The fact that there are other issues with it is not surprising, almost every subclass in this game has some issue with it, at least under-powered is easier to fix through things like feats or the races you take, if the DM doesn't want to get into homebrew repair options.

Sir cryosin

2017-08-12, 01:27 PM

I get that FR is the primary setting, and I have no problems with them spending a paragraph or two in the class description explaining what it is in the FR setting. But look at the other classes that they introduced in the same book. All of the others are generic-named, and none are named for a specific group in a specific setting. So they deliberately broke pattern with this particular class, and I think that this naming convention turns people off from using it, since it's named something specific in the realms. The fact that there are other issues with it is not surprising, almost every subclass in this game has some issue with it, at least under-powered is easier to fix through things like feats or the races you take, if the DM doesn't want to get into homebrew repair options.

What about bladesinger, battlerage,

Temperjoke

2017-08-12, 01:33 PM

What about bladesinger, battlerage,

What about them? The names give no indication that they are something specific to the realms. In fact, the only thing they say is that in the realms there are specific restrictions. Otherwise, they don't say anything about being a specific organization, in a specific country, and oh, by the way if you want to use them elsewhere, call them this name.

Naanomi

2017-08-12, 01:36 PM

Long Death and Sunsoul are both very setting specific organizations as well

Temperjoke

2017-08-12, 01:39 PM

Long Death and Sunsoul are both very setting specific organizations as well

Then I stand partially corrected, since the names also matched up very well with the class mechanic descriptions themselves, while Purple Dragon Knights don't, at least to me.

Zalabim

2017-08-13, 01:51 AM

Come to think of it, Banneret+the maneuver feat does get you a warlord approximation, which I guess is what some people have been saying from the get-go. Cool.

Play this if:

1) You like having a character that's challenging to use right, but the payoff can be super
2) Your play style is "leader" but you like smashing face
3) You have multiple other martial characters in the party (barb, rogue, fight, pal, rgr)
4) Your party lacks a primary healer and you don't want to play one

I can see this guy in a party with a barbarian, a rogue, and another fighter and being the party's leader and strategist. By being a master of tactics, you give your team a huge martial boost, as opposed to a bard who just tosses around inspiration dice and casts spells. Easy mode.
Combining these two together to frame my first impression of the PDK. Rallying Cry is a poor replacement for the Healer feat. Martial Adept is a poor replacement for the Battle Master's superiority dice. I'd sooner play a BM with the Healer feat than a PDK with the BM feat.

Spacehamster

2017-08-13, 02:05 AM

Thinks its kind of simple, it mostly boosts party members and not yourself, and most people
enjoy to be a powerhouse themselves, not to make others one, and those that enjoy the latter
tend to be casters. :)

Tanarii

2017-08-13, 10:48 AM

What about them? The names give no indication that they are something specific to the realms. In fact, the only thing they say is that in the realms there are specific restrictions. Otherwise, they don't say anything about being a specific organization, in a specific country, and oh, by the way if you want to use them elsewhere, call them this name.
Bladesingers and Battleragers are FR-specific groups / styles of training / race-class archetypes.

It's an FR specific splat book. There's absolutely no reason they should have gone with generic first, FR-specific second. It's intended for use in the Forgotten Realms, with notes on how to adapt it to non-FR settings.

Millstone85

2017-08-13, 11:05 AM

What is odd to me is that...
Banneret serves as the generic name for this archetype if you use it in other campaign settings or to model warlords other than Purple Dragon knights. suggests it is not strictly a matter of setting. Not all bannerets in Forgotten Realms are expected to be Purple Dragon knights. In that sense, I agree banneret should have been the main name of the archetype.

Specter

2017-08-13, 04:33 PM

Bladesingers and Battleragers are FR-specific groups / styles of training / race-class archetypes.

It's an FR specific splat book. There's absolutely no reason they should have gone with generic first, FR-specific second. It's intended for use in the Forgotten Realms, with notes on how to adapt it to non-FR settings.

Agreed. If I'm buying twinkies, I expect twinkies, not cookies.

Jerrykhor

2017-08-13, 08:22 PM

A background specific subclass is bad enough, giving it garbage features just killed it.

Vorpalchicken

2017-08-13, 11:26 PM

I don't have my books in front of me so maybe there is a fiddly rule here, but what part of being unconscious makes you unable to hear?

Loud noises wake people up all the time. And personally speaking I am at my most persuasive when my audience is asleep.

I think it is absolutely the intent of Rallying Cry to bring people back to consciousness from zero hp. Like, the dragon just breathed and brought down half our party- good thing we've got a Purple Dragon Knight!

JBPuffin

2017-08-14, 01:06 AM

I don't have my books in front of me so maybe there is a fiddly rule here, but what part of being unconscious makes you unable to hear?

Loud noises wake people up all the time. And personally speaking I am at my most persuasive when my audience is asleep.

I think it is absolutely the intent of Rallying Cry to bring people back to consciousness from zero hp. Like, the dragon just breathed and brought down half our party- good thing we've got a Purple Dragon Knight!

Unconscious says they're "unaware of their surroundings," which could easily be interpreted as "can't hear for sh!te." I'd allows it, but eh. Also, that second bit's funny :smallamused:.

Safety Sword

2017-08-14, 01:20 AM

I think it is absolutely the intent of Rallying Cry to bring people back to consciousness from zero hp. Like, the dragon just breathed and brought down half our party- good thing we've got a Purple Dragon Knight!

I see your dragon and raise you a knight. Your bet.

Coidzor

2017-08-14, 09:01 AM

I don't have my books in front of me so maybe there is a fiddly rule here, but what part of being unconscious makes you unable to hear?

Loud noises wake people up all the time. And personally speaking I am at my most persuasive when my audience is asleep.

I think it is absolutely the intent of Rallying Cry to bring people back to consciousness from zero hp. Like, the dragon just breathed and brought down half our party- good thing we've got a Purple Dragon Knight!

Unfortunately the devs hate you/PDK/Oath of the Crown. (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/08/12/can-rallying-cry-restore-hp-to-a-character-who-currently-has-0-hp/)

Tanarii

2017-08-14, 09:22 AM

I don't have my books in front of me so maybe there is a fiddly rule here, but what part of being unconscious makes you unable to hear?

Loud noises wake people up all the time. And personally speaking I am at my most persuasive when my audience is asleep.Natural sleep and unconsciousness are not the same thing IRL. Additionally, there's no game rule that when a character is asleep, that they have the Unconcious condition. Talking about natural sleep here not the Sleep spell. So basing rulings for how the Unconcious condition on natural sleep IRL isn't a good idea. It appears to be closer to a concussion-style knock-out or blood-loss style pass-out, or a kind of short term coma. If you're looking for the IRL equivalent of the condition.

I think it is absolutely the intent of Rallying Cry to bring people back to consciousness from zero hp. Like, the dragon just breathed and brought down half our party- good thing we've got a Purple Dragon Knight!Seems like it'd be a good rule-of-cool house rule. Although for the kind of people that didn't like Warlord healing, it might break their verisimilitude.

Coidzor

2017-08-14, 09:49 AM

Seems like it'd be a good rule-of-cool house rule. Although for the kind of people that didn't like Warlord healing, it might break their verisimilitude.

You can't please both side of the divide, and having the ability exist but making it suck(the current situation) is just bad.

MaxWilson

2017-08-15, 05:48 PM

If no state your reason if yes state your reason. I will go first.I enjoy the purple dragon knight i like the fluff i like giving an extra go round for a party member of my choice and since i grab the feat for some manuvers it gets intresting.

I kind of do hate the Purple Dragon knight, but I also kind of don't. I have this idea in the back of my head for a Purple Dragon Knight NPC (or solo campaign PC?) who, instead of leading a typical adventuring party of fighter + rogue + bard + wizard or whatever, instead leads a motley band of low-level henchmen, like Robin Hood and his Merry Men.

The general idea is to optimize for being both an effective individual combatant and also a leader of men. Inspiring Leader feat + Healer feat helps you keep your men alive, and the Purple Dragon Knight action surge feature (whatever it's called) helps you leverage them offensively. Maybe go for Banneret/Swashbuckler so you can use Panache to taunt enemies further and keep them focused on killing you instead of your men--that seems very Robin Hood-esque.

But I haven't actually done this so far, not even so much as writing up a full NPC stat block, and when I think too hard about it it seems to me that a Battlemaster/Swashbuckler with Inspiring Leader would do the same job as well or better... so maybe I really do hate the Purple Dragon Knight after all. (?) Still, it might be fun to try once for a short solo campaign, so maybe I don't hate it. :-/

Combining these two together to frame my first impression of the PDK. Rallying Cry is a poor replacement for the Healer feat. Martial Adept is a poor replacement for the Battle Master's superiority dice. I'd sooner play a BM with the Healer feat than a PDK with the BM feat.

Rallying Cry + Healer feat is a pretty decent synergy though. Healer feat gives you unlimited heals-from-0 HP for your buddies, and then they can see and hear again so Rallying Cry can give them a bunch of a restored HP on top of that if there's more fighting to do.

Sariel Vailo

2017-08-15, 06:21 PM

I kind of do hate the Purple Dragon knight, but I also kind of don't. I have this idea in the back of my head for a Purple Dragon Knight NPC (or solo campaign PC?) who, instead of leading a typical adventuring party of fighter + rogue + bard + wizard or whatever, instead leads a motley band of low-level henchmen, like Robin Hood and his Merry Men.

The general idea is to optimize for being both an effective individual combatant and also a leader of men. Inspiring Leader feat + Healer feat helps you keep your men alive, and the Purple Dragon Knight action surge feature (whatever it's called) helps you leverage them offensively. Maybe go for Banneret/Swashbuckler so you can use Panache to taunt enemies further and keep them focused on killing you instead of your men--that seems very Robin Hood-esque.

But I haven't actually done this so far, not even so much as writing up a full NPC stat block, and when I think too hard about it it seems to me that a Battlemaster/Swashbuckler with Inspiring Leader would do the same job as well or better... so maybe I really do hate the Purple Dragon Knight after all. (?) Still, it might be fun to try once for a short solo campaign, so maybe I don't hate it. :-/

Rallying Cry + Healer feat is a pretty decent synergy though. Healer feat gives you unlimited heals-from-0 HP for your buddies, and then they can see and hear again so Rallying Cry can give them a bunch of a restored HP on top of that if there's more fighting to do.

i didnt even think of that i just like this i hated the other fighter archetypes. I really didnt get to into
Battlemaster i didnt get into ek either champion i am kinda eh i guess ill use it. But pdk i just love it i frab the right feats and race and it becomes memorable,tiefling,drow,goliath aasimar all gokd feats like the ua for cooking to just i see uses for a tiefling pdk called destiny who cooks anx uses medicine and cares deeply for their group.