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shadowkat678
2017-08-11, 11:53 AM
So, I had an idea to do a kind of Leverage type story for around two to three people where the players are a part of a guild that helps steal BACK items that are wrongfully taken.

One of the highest ranking families is tied to the underworld, and the guards are in their pocket. Can't go to law enforcement? Can't get it back yourself? You one of those lowly peasants most people don't give a rat's rear end about? Someone took the only thing of value to your name?

We got you.

It's not going to be extremely combat heavy, but for players who enjoy problem solving, intrege, and stealth.

There's probably going to be a lot of new items catering to the style of play. Glasscutters. Potions and poisons. That stuff. And as this guild is more for getting stuff back, they probably won't get as much money as a normal d&d game. This would make it more challenging to get lots of these items at the start. It wouldn't exactly be a "low-magic campaign" as much as magic items would be harder to get, due to being expensive and regulated. Also, considering you steal from a lot of people who don't exactly like you, contacts wouldn't be near as numerous.

I was thinking of doing a turnaround on the players for the first session. I'm thinking of making some later level premade characters for them, just for the first session. Basically they'll be out on a job, but at the end these premade characters are killed, and they roll their actual characters as new recruits in the guild. The first session will play into the start as plot a set up. Though I'm still deciding if they should know about what will happen with the premades and all, or just go with a "trust me. You'll like it. We're going somewhere with this" approach.

This guild is, of course, being targeted. The campaign will revolve around the city for quite a few levels, and it'll be a big city with plenty to explore. Hopefully with quite a few twists and surprises.

An alternate idea of them being in the guild is that the guild has to scatter after the event they do for session one, and the guild is now in scattered groups throughout the city in hiding. The players would have to do missions to keep helping clients without getting caught, as well trying to get the guild back on its feet.

How does it sound? Any extra ideas and tips for something like this? Things that would be added to the city? How to keep the quests interesting and nonrepetitive?

Really. Any additional thoughts and ideas are welcome. I'm a relatively new DM who's only been running a campaign for the past few months, but I LOVE stealth games and have had something like this rattling around in my head quite a while. What we have been playing up till now has been a official module, so I'm betting this level of homebrew would be quite different. Probably going to try to get more experience before actually doing this, but I want to be plotting and setting up ideas in the meantime, you know?

Thinker
2017-08-11, 12:06 PM
So, I had an idea to do a kind of Leverage type story for around two to three people where the players are a part of a guild that helps steal BACK items that are wrongfully taken.

One of the highest ranking families is tied to the underworld, and the guards are in their pocket. Can't go to law enforcement? Can't get it back yourself? You one of those lowly peasants most people don't give a rat's rear end about? Someone took the only thing of value to your name?

We got you.

It's not going to be extremely combat heavy, but for players who enjoy problem solving, intrege, and stealth.

There's probably going to be a lot of new items catering to the style of play. Glasscutters. Potions and poisons. That stuff. And as this guild is more for getting stuff back, they probably won't get as much money as a normal d&d game. This would make it more challenging to get lots of these items at the start. It wouldn't exactly be a "low-magic campaign" as much as magic items would be harder to get, due to being expensive and regulated. Also, considering you steal from a lot of people who don't exactly like you, contacts wouldn't be near as numerous.

I was thinking of doing a turnaround on the players for the first session. I'm thinking of making some later level premade characters for them, just for the first session. Basically they'll be out on a job, but at the end these premade characters are killed, and they roll their actual characters as new recruits in the guild. The first session will play into the start as plot a set up. Though I'm still deciding if they should know about what will happen with the premades and all, or just go with a "trust me. You'll like it. We're going somewhere with this" approach.

This guild is, of course, being targeted. The campaign will revolve around the city for quite a few levels, and it'll be a big city with plenty to explore. Hopefully with quite a few twists and surprises.

An alternate idea of them being in the guild is that the guild has to scatter after the event they do for session one, and the guild is now in scattered groups throughout the city in bidding. The players would have to do missions to keep helping clients without getting caught, as well trying to get the guild back on its feet.

How does it sound? Any extra ideas and tips for something like this? Things that would be added to the city? How to keep the quests interesting and nonrepetitive?

I'm not sure what system you're planning to play in, but you will need a way to differentiate what each character is good at so that everyone has a chance to shine. If you're using a system that uses character classes, you can look at heist movie archetypes to get a feel for some classes: TVTropes Link (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CaperCrew). If you're not running a class-based system, make sure you have skills/abilities/spells related to each area.

shadowkat678
2017-08-11, 12:14 PM
I'm not sure what system you're planning to play in, but you will need a way to differentiate what each character is good at so that everyone has a chance to shine. If you're using a system that uses character classes, you can look at heist movie archetypes to get a feel for some cclasse. If you're not running a class-based system, make sure you have skills/abilities/spells related to each area.

I'm planning 5e D&D with personal modifications to better fit a stealth game. Guess I forgot to add that. Sorry.

Lvl 2 Expert
2017-08-11, 12:40 PM
So it's like Robin Hood meets the A-team? I'd play that.

The premade characters for a single session sound like a good idea. Get them in on what kind of altered mechanics there are so they can meaningfully make new characters.

One thing to take into account is that you may see a bit of splitting the party, because not everyone's job is in the same place. While the runner parcours a rope up the wall so the cat burglar can drop through the window and open the door the muscle is already standing at the door to be closest in case backup is needed, and the face will be chatting up the guards for most of the heist. This will complicate play somewhat. A good map and a decent idea of time relative to what the others are doing might help get everyone back on the same page when it's suddenly needed.

shadowkat678
2017-08-11, 12:53 PM
So it's like Robin Hood meets the A-team? I'd play that.

The premade characters for a single session sound like a good idea. Get them in on what kind of altered mechanics there are so they can meaningfully make new characters.

One thing to take into account is that you may see a bit of splitting the party, because not everyone's job is in the same place. While the runner parcours a rope up the wall so the cat burglar can drop through the window and open the door the muscle is already standing at the door to be closest in case backup is needed, and the face will be chatting up the guards for most of the heist. This will complicate play somewhat. A good map and a decent idea of time relative to what the others are doing might help get everyone back on the same page when it's suddenly needed.

Yeah. About like that, and I thought about that. Which is why I think it's probably going to be a smaller party. Four people max. I'm going to have to figure that out, as well as what to do for lower levels.

FreddyNoNose
2017-08-11, 03:27 PM
So it's like Robin Hood meets the A-team? I'd play that.

The premade characters for a single session sound like a good idea. Get them in on what kind of altered mechanics there are so they can meaningfully make new characters.

One thing to take into account is that you may see a bit of splitting the party, because not everyone's job is in the same place. While the runner parcours a rope up the wall so the cat burglar can drop through the window and open the door the muscle is already standing at the door to be closest in case backup is needed, and the face will be chatting up the guards for most of the heist. This will complicate play somewhat. A good map and a decent idea of time relative to what the others are doing might help get everyone back on the same page when it's suddenly needed.

"In 972, a band of merry men was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Sherwood Forest underground. Today, still wanted by the government they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them....maybe you can hire The M-Team."

shadowkat678
2017-08-11, 04:00 PM
R-Team for rogues, in more ways than one.

souridealist
2017-08-11, 04:25 PM
I'd play the hell out of this.

Do you want the players to have reduced access to wealth and contacts, or is it just something that seems like a natural consequence? Because you could get a pretty cool network of underworld contacts - not the big underworld names, if those are your antagonists, but freelancers and neutral parties. Maybe even a few law-enforcement types who are sick of the rest of the force being totally corrupt.

And for wealth - I mean, if you're in the guy's house anyway, and you already know he's a real piece of scum, you might as well grab the silver on the way out, right? (If you actively want to restrict gold, I would be ready for the players to have this thought process all on their own, by the way.)

FreddyNoNose
2017-08-11, 04:37 PM
R-Team for rogues, in more ways than one.

M is for subterfuge.

JellyPooga
2017-08-11, 05:51 PM
With the whole premade characters thing; do not, I repeat, do not let on that those characters are only temporary. I've run that kind of session before (though in the game I did it, it ran to two sessions) and it totally works as a "gotcha". My players were completely blind-sided and it turned out to be one of the best games any of our group had played. Ever. We still talk about it ten years later, as if it were only last week. Having said that, it does set a certain tone for the game i.e. survival/horror/high lethality, which 5ed may not lend itself too well to (I ran it with GURPS and the game was heavily based on the film Aliens, so I actually wanted my players to have that survival/horror mind-set).

Given that you're running 5ed, I would suggest not giving or insisting eveyone takes the actual Rogue class. Backgrounds, especially custom ones, will serve you well to give the "rogue" feel and the appropriate skills needed to feel like a member of this organisation. You might want to put some limits on certain classes, however; Druids, Clerics, Paladins and to an extent Monks and perhaps Rangerd may take some explaining to shoe-horn into appropriate roles, if only from a fluff point of view. Don't be afraid to be generous on that front if a player (when creating their own characters) comes up with something good; it's their character after all. On the other shoe, don't be afraid to say "no" if their concept simply doesn't fit.

One thing I cannot stress enough, is that the more work you put in, the better the game will be. You have a concept and you need to keep it on track. This doesn't necessarily mean busting out the railroads, but by doing little things like maps and pre-prepped notes can really enhance the feel you're going for.

Other than that, this sounds like an awesome game concept! Games that have a focus like this often turn out much more entertaining than the typical "generic adventuring" games that are so often played.

shadowkat678
2017-08-11, 06:15 PM
With the whole premade characters thing; do not, I repeat, do not let on that those characters are only temporary. I've run that kind of session before (though in the game I did it, it ran to two sessions) and it totally works as a "gotcha". My players were completely blind-sided and it turned out to be one of the best games any of our group had played. Ever. We still talk about it ten years later, as if it were only last week. Having said that, it does set a certain tone for the game i.e. survival/horror/high lethality, which 5ed may not lend itself too well to (I ran it with GURPS and the game was heavily based on the film Aliens, so I actually wanted my players to have that survival/horror mind-set).

Given that you're running 5ed, I would suggest not giving or insisting eveyone takes the actual Rogue class. Backgrounds, especially custom ones, will serve you well to give the "rogue" feel and the appropriate skills needed to feel like a member of this organisation. You might want to put some limits on certain classes, however; Druids, Clerics, Paladins and to an extent Monks and perhaps Rangerd may take some explaining to shoe-horn into appropriate roles, if only from a fluff point of view. Don't be afraid to be generous on that front if a player (when creating their own characters) comes up with something good; it's their character after all. On the other shoe, don't be afraid to say "no" if their concept simply doesn't fit.

One thing I cannot stress enough, is that the more work you put in, the better the game will be. You have a concept and you need to keep it on track. This doesn't necessarily mean busting out the railroads, but by doing little things like maps and pre-prepped notes can really enhance the feel you're going for.

Other than that, this sounds like an awesome game concept! Games that have a focus like this often turn out much more entertaining than the typical "generic adventuring" games that are so often played.

Well, isn't it more about the atmosphere than the mechanics? I mean. I've only been playing D&D myself for half a year (about?) and DMing a few months, but I've played a few different games and they were all vastly different. One of them had a DM aptly named after a angel of death. I got killed my first night. And Curse of Strad is a module from the Ravenloft setting. Flipped through it and it certainly gives a horror feel.

Definitely keeping the players not knowing thing in mind.

I was actually thinking about coming up with more subclasses to fit those other classes, or supporting multiclassing. For example, a illusion based magic character with some stealth skills could certainly come in handy. I'd definitely listen to any ideas. After all, out of the box and clever ways of thinking is why I love rogues and stealth games!



Do you want the players to have reduced access to wealth and contacts, or is it just something that seems like a natural consequence? Because you could get a pretty cool network of underworld contacts - not the big underworld names, if those are your antagonists, but freelancers and neutral parties. Maybe even a few law-enforcement types who are sick of the rest of the force being totally corrupt.

And for wealth - I mean, if you're in the guy's house anyway, and you already know he's a real piece of scum, you might as well grab the silver on the way out, right? (If you actively want to restrict gold, I would be ready for the players to have this thought process all on their own, by the way.)

That makes sense. My line of thought is they probably won't be going to the high class, well guarded areas as rookies. That would probably be reserved for higher operatives. And the people coming to them often don't have much to pay anyway.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-08-11, 07:33 PM
Why D&D? It's not well suited to this at all. D&D is a combat game.

daniel_ream
2017-08-11, 07:41 PM
Why D&D? It's not well suited to this at all. D&D is a combat game.

This.

You can do this whole concept virtually without modification using the actual Leverage RPG (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/85727/Leverage-Roleplaying-Game), and I'd recommend it. Heist games have a very specific structure, and while you could do it in D&D, the system will be fighting you the entire way.


It's not going to be extremely combat heavy, but for players who enjoy problem solving, intrege, and stealth.

D&D is just really, really crap at those kinds of games.

Also:


I was thinking of doing a turnaround on the players for the first session. [...] Though I'm still deciding if they should know about what will happen with the premades and all, or just go with a "trust me. You'll like it. We're going somewhere with this" approach.

Stop and think about this for a second. Has this ever gone well for you as a DM? Have you ever heard of it going well for anyone as a DM? Have you ever heard of a player saying "Man, the DM totally bait and switched us in that session and it was awesome"?

You know your players best, obviously, but stop and think about whether the players are likely to respond to this the way you want them to.

shadowkat678
2017-08-11, 08:19 PM
This.

You can do this whole concept virtually without modification using the actual Leverage RPG, and I'd recommend it. Heist games have a very specific structure, and while you could do it in D&D, the system will be fighting you the entire way.

D&D is just really, really crap at those kinds of games.

Also:

Stop and think about this for a second. Has this ever gone well for you as a DM? Have you ever heard of it going well for anyone as a DM? Have you ever heard of a player saying "Man, the DM totally bait and switched us in that session and it was awesome"?

You know your players best, obviously, but stop and think about whether the players are likely to respond to this the way you want them to.

I've heard of plenty of games not combat heavy people have done with D&D. I'm a broke college student without a job who already knows 5e, and has the books. It's far less expensive and time consuming for me to modify what I have and take from old editions to merge in then to start with something completely new that I have to learn. Also, I said it wouldn't be combat heavy, not that there wouldn't be any at all. And I like the fight mechanics.

Not to mention it was in the DM guide where I first saw the concept of a intrigue game with D&D mentioned. D&D also has a bigger fan base, and I might not be playing it with my current players.

For the last question...more than one. That part of the idea I got from reading a Reddit D&D thread on subverting game tropes, and there were at least three people who told a story about having this pulled and really liking it. Then there was someone who replied on this very thread, citing the adventure as one of their favorites.

I'm also out to make a game I MYSELF would love playing. Kinda like the "if you can't find a book that fits with what you want, write it" philosophy. I will be hosting on Roll20 when the time comes, and thus I can easily find enough players. It also allows me more visual online sources to draw from. They'll know the type of game they're going into by the description.

daniel_ream
2017-08-11, 09:57 PM
It's far less expensive and time consuming for me to modify what I have and take from old editions to merge in then to start with something completely new that I have to learn.

I think with time and experience, you'll find that that's rarely the case. D&D isn't the most complicated RPG in existence, but it's right up there. There are a number of RPGs that you can teach in under fifteen minutes, including character generation, and many of those are cheap or free.


Not to mention it was in the DM guide where I first saw the concept of a intrigue game with D&D mentioned.

What exactly did you expect it to say? "This game sucks for genre X. Put this book down and go buy a different game." You can drive a nail with a socket wrench, but it's not the best tool for the job. You can play any concept with any RPG, too, it all depends on how much of the RAW you're willing to throw out entirely, rewrite, or make up from scratch. That doesn't mean all RPGs are suited to all concepts.


For the last question...more than one. That part of the idea I got from reading a Reddit D&D thread on subverting game tropes, and there were at least three people who told a story about having this pulled and really liking it. Then there was someone who replied on this very thread, citing the adventure as one of their favorites.

So some Internet stories that may or may not have happened, or happened the way they were recounted.

Come on, man. It's the Internet. How many real, live people you've talked to in person have thumbed-up this idea?


I'm also out to make a game I MYSELF would love playing.

The most likely result of that is you'll be the only one playing it. Make a game that your players would love to play, and you'll get to play it.

Mechalich
2017-08-11, 10:27 PM
D&D is a poor fit for this style of game, simply because D&D is high magic and high magic takes a hammer to traditional non-magic intrigue scenarios in short order. This is similar to how intrigue scenarios in futuristic settings ultimately end up turning into outgrowths of the hacking system - because everything has become digital - intrigue in D&D becomes magical intrigue and spell vs. counterspell.

There are any number of games that are much better for this kind of sword & skullduggery approach to gameplay. Beyond specific examples this falls quite well within the FATE Core design space (Fate core is full of allusions to the Nehwon stories of Fritz Leiber - which include many examples of the kind of campaign you're describing - for a reason), and Fate is available for free.

Nifft
2017-08-11, 11:10 PM
This.

You can do this whole concept virtually without modification using the actual Leverage RPG (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/85727/Leverage-Roleplaying-Game), and I'd recommend it. Heist games have a very specific structure, and while you could do it in D&D, the system will be fighting you the entire way.

I came in here to recommend the Leverage RPG, so consider it seconded.

I think it could be adapted to a fantasy or "urban magic" setting without too much trouble.

Or, you could simply mine the game for inspiration on how to adapt D&D to this genre -- which might be more work, but it's not me doing the work, so yeah. :) I can't really complain either way.

shadowkat678
2017-08-12, 11:21 AM
Looked at the Leverage thing, but I can't find a free pdf and if I have to pay for something I want the physical copy, which is, like, $40. I also still like a lot of the D&D mechanics, and the setting would still be fantasy, so there would definitely still have to have quite a bit of tweaking to fit what I'm looking to run.

I don't think it'd be hard to find players, considering that quite a few people seem to like the idea of it.

souridealist
2017-08-12, 02:16 PM
Why D&D? It's not well suited to this at all. D&D is a combat game.


D&D is just really, really crap at those kinds of games.

Gonna strongly disagree with both of these statements. My experience is mostly 3.5/Pathfinder and I've literally lost count of how many combat-free sessions I've played over the past few years. Last year one campaign had three no-combat sessions in a row; I was the first to get restless, and that was only because my character was an orc barbarian and about as useful as a Jell-O screwdriver, which isn't a problem you'll have when everyone knows up-front that that's the way the game was going to go. And there's a number of threads on these exact forums detailing spectacular high-intrigue, low-combat campaigns. Kaveman26's Chaotic Goodfellas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?245596-Chaotic-Goodfellas-Campaign-Recap) log from a while back has a similar thieves-and-scammers-and-intrigue premise to OP's, and it sounds like it was a great time. (OP, I strongly recommend checking it out.)

I haven't played 5E myself, but there are multiple plot-heavy campaign podcasts set in it, and they're emotionally engaging enough to be popular (and the one I actively follow reduced me to tears the other night), so I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say 5E doesn't need to be an all-combat hack-and-slash either. At least not if you have an imaginative DM and engaged players.

Also, OP, I feel you on the 'because I already bought the books for this system and I'm broke' logic. With the right players and the right concept, an imperfect system is not a huge obstacle. Hell, if I weren't in one game and running another right now I'd be asking where to sign up.

I don't know what it is with Playground forums and the tendency to respond to 'help me polish this idea!' with 'it's a bad and stupid idea, so throw out everything you want to do and start over with my pet build/system/concept/ethos.' It's incredibly discouraging, and it's why I never post as much as I want to.

Knaight
2017-08-12, 04:07 PM
I'd avoid D&D for this (Leverage has been mentioned, but Blades in the Dark is also worth a look), but that's literally the only thing about the concept that I'd have any trepidation about. Stealth focused underworld game? Sold. The core setting is a single large city? Sold. The false start with pregens who all get brutally killed? Sold. I can also personally confirm that all of these elements work, as I've GMed games with all of them, with the single large city being particularly common.

shadowkat678
2017-08-12, 04:45 PM
Can anyone tell me WHY they don't think D&D 5e would work? I agree that there's rpgs that specifically cater to stealth type games, and I get there are ones simpler (although I tend to like the complexity. Feels like there's more options and customization, which I love), but I don't get the "the system just sucks for it.

I agree with the second poster above me about sessions being run without combat. We just are finishing up Lost Mines of Phandelver, and we've had a few. And, more than that, they've become some of the best sessions. Especially those featuring our group's pet goblin NPC who one of our characters got addicted to candy. No fights beat that. It's absolutely hilarious. Pure hack and slash tend to be my least favorite types of games.

Mechalich
2017-08-12, 07:27 PM
Can anyone tell me WHY they don't think D&D 5e would work? I agree that there's rpgs that specifically cater to stealth type games, and I get there are ones simpler (although I tend to like the complexity. Feels like there's more options and customization, which I love), but I don't get the "the system just sucks for it.

Because 5e's rules for stealth are known to be bad (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2tpmq6/5e_how_in_the_nine_hells_does_stealth_work/). So a stealth based game I 5e means you are choosing to focus on one of the weakest and most argument inducing parts of the system.

The other reason is because D&D is inherently high magic and that kind of magic tends to rip apart intrigue scenarios. The classic example is solving a murder mystery using speak with dead, but there are countless others involving divination spells and other options.

shadowkat678
2017-08-12, 08:05 PM
Because 5e's rules for stealth are bad. So a stealth based game I 5e means you are choosing to focus on one of the weakest and most argument inducing parts of the system.

The other reason is because D&D is inherently high magic and that kind of magic tends to rip apart intrigue scenarios. The classic example is solving a murder mystery using speak with dead, but there are countless others involving divination spells and other options.

Which is why I've already started coming up with things. Such as a better knock out mechanic. Ways to give advantages to stealth skills through role play. Numerous items such as bringing in pathfinder's masterwork kits, different kinds of gear for situations, etc. Factoring in more variables to how they would get through with things instead of a simple roll. A lot of things can be done. There's plenty in that thread you linked showing how GMs have dealt with it. I just don't understand. Why would it be better to give up all the other mechanics one likes and go to another system when you can just tweak things yourself? Isn't that what's so cool about Pen and Paper games?

And D&D doesn't have to be high magic. Restrict the number of magic items in the world, make mages more scarce, that's a VERY easy fix. I believe there's more than one low magic D&D official setting. Not everything takes place in the Forgotten Realms.

And there WILL be magic. Including plenty homebrewed items and spells, or things taken from past editions. There's entire official source books from earlier editions for making thieves guilds and stuff. Also, for the murder issue? Obviously he either didn't see the killer, the killer was disguised, or the killer was possing as someone else using magic, and now we have a framing to figure out.

Mechalich
2017-08-12, 11:33 PM
Which is why I've already started coming up with things. Such as a better knock out mechanic. Ways to give advantages to stealth skills through role play. Numerous items such as bringing in pathfinder's masterwork kits, different kinds of gear for situations, etc. Factoring in more variables to how they would get through with things instead of a simple roll. A lot of things can be done. There's plenty in that thread you linked showing how GMs have dealt with it. I just don't understand. Why would it be better to give up all the other mechanics one likes and go to another system when you can just tweak things yourself? Isn't that what's so cool about Pen and Paper games?


The reason is that people are trying to save you all the work you're describing. You're going to have to extensively modify the system, including the production of major homebrew rules that won't be playtested and therefore will require constant tweaking. Effectively you won't be running 5e, you'll be running a homebrew system on the 5e chassis (which BTW, since it is unique to your table, makes asking for help here of greatly reduced value, since we have no idea how your modified system will actually function).

Also, your players may or may not buy into this. If you're playing with friends/people you know who trust you as a GM this is probably okay, but if you're playing with a group that you don't know or playing online extensively homebrew tends to be the source of endless arguments and is likely to kill campaigns.

A gaming system is like a complex computer program with a lot of redundancies. Yes, you can make it do things it wasn't designed to do, but doing so takes additional effort and is likely to confuse your audience and you often would be much better off starting with the appropriate tool from the start. You can write a novel in MSPaint if you really want too, but wouldn't it make more sense to us MSWord?

shadowkat678
2017-08-13, 07:35 AM
The reason is that people are trying to save you all the work you're describing. You're going to have to extensively modify the system, including the production of major homebrew rules that won't be playtested and therefore will require constant tweaking. Effectively you won't be running 5e, you'll be running a homebrew system on the 5e chassis (which BTW, since it is unique to your table, makes asking for help here of greatly reduced value, since we have no idea how your modified system will actually function).

Also, your players may or may not buy into this. If you're playing with friends/people you know who trust you as a GM this is probably okay, but if you're playing with a group that you don't know or playing online extensively homebrew tends to be the source of endless arguments and is likely to kill campaigns.

A gaming system is like a complex computer program with a lot of redundancies. Yes, you can make it do things it wasn't designed to do, but doing so takes additional effort and is likely to confuse your audience and you often would be much better off starting with the appropriate tool from the start. You can write a novel in MSPaint if you really want too, but wouldn't it make more sense to us MSWord?

That makes sense, but wouldn't the game be homebrew regardless of the system, since I already planned a lot with D&D in mind. I already thought of a world. The kind of monsters from D&D I'm using. The magic. I still need to look up Fate, but if I were to do Leverage none of what I already have with those fits into the world. Would I just lift the stealth system off and use D&D for everything else?

Gensuru
2017-08-13, 08:11 AM
My suggestion is to open to scope of that organisation your players are going to be a part of. If it's restricted to "steal back object X from person/location Z" it''s going to get somewhat repetitive sooner or later. You can upgrade from houses to mansions to banks to castles but beyond that it seems fairly...linear.

You could add missions like "find/provide proof that this person is a criminal so the city guard can/will act against him." or even more general stuff like "shut down this criminal (organisation)" to give your players more possibility for actual outside the box thinking. If it's just retrieval of stolen goods every time it's probably going to end up as a heist of some sort every time.


If you can, watch Mission Impossible. The TV Series, not the movies. I haven't seen Leverage but from what I have read there seem to be certain similarities. Similar enough, at any rate, that I will want to try and watch Leverage.

Being part of a guild also helps create more diverse missions. You can have the protagonists' team sent in after a team of NPC has failed. The previous team could be captured, dead or even turned to keep things interesting. On other missions you can give the team support. E.g. they want to run a con but need a bunch of people to act as background.

shadowkat678
2017-08-13, 10:09 AM
My suggestion is to open to scope of that organisation your players are going to be a part of. If it's restricted to "steal back object X from person/location Z" it''s going to get somewhat repetitive sooner or later. You can upgrade from houses to mansions to banks to castles but beyond that it seems fairly...linear.

You could add missions like "find/provide proof that this person is a criminal so the city guard can/will act against him." or even more general stuff like "shut down this criminal (organisation)" to give your players more possibility for actual outside the box thinking. If it's just retrieval of stolen goods every time it's probably going to end up as a heist of some sort every time.


If you can, watch Mission Impossible. The TV Series, not the movies. I haven't seen Leverage but from what I have read there seem to be certain similarities. Similar enough, at any rate, that I will want to try and watch Leverage.

Being part of a guild also helps create more diverse missions. You can have the protagonists' team sent in after a team of NPC has failed. The previous team could be captured, dead or even turned to keep things interesting. On other missions you can give the team support. E.g. they want to run a con but need a bunch of people to act as background.

Yeah, I was thinking of that. Probably going to do cons and other things as well, along with figuring out how to bring back the guild who who found them in the first place. It's going to branch out a bit after the first few jobs.

daniel_ream
2017-08-13, 04:44 PM
That makes sense, but wouldn't the game be homebrew regardless of the system, since I already planned a lot with D&D in mind. I already thought of a world. The kind of monsters from D&D I'm using. The magic. I still need to look up Fate, but if I were to do Leverage none of what I already have with those fits into the world. Would I just lift the stealth system off and use D&D for everything else?

Yes, it would be homebrew. But it's going to be a lot more work to retrofit mechanics to support a heist game into D&D than to take an existing heist game and reskin it for a fantasy environment.

By your own admission, the sum total of your RPG experience is six months playing canned D&D modules. I strongly suggest that you take a bit of time to look at other games that aren't D&D, because even if D&D is the 800-lb gorilla of the industry, there are literally thousands of RPGs out there that aren't D&D and do things very, very differently, often to support a specific genre that isn't D&D's default "dungeonpunk superheroes" brand of fantasy.

You can pick up the Quick Start Rules for Leverage from DTRPG for about $2. It's worth it. Fate Core is around $25, if I'm not mistaken, the Fate SRD is free online, and there are dozens of pay-what-you-want campaign frames and worldbooks available for Fate.

If you want a specific deconstruction of Why D&D Handles Intrigue, Stealth, and Problem Solving Poorly I can do that, but it's likely to cause more arguments than it resolves.

Herobizkit
2017-08-13, 09:43 PM
If you want a D&D 'feel' but more focus on story-telling, I'd suggest running the rules-light Dungeon World system. It's designed with narrative in mind and isn't terribly high-magic.

That said:

The creator of Leverage is quoted as saying that he's used D&D's structure as a model for his series. There's no reason 5e CAN'T do what you want. Skill checks will have much more weight in such a game, and as previously stated, magic-users (which is more than two-thirds of the classes, at least in part) can make shorter work of such a game.

Two or three people is a good range for a story-centric game, but you're going to want to encourage them to 'build' to trope. For three players, "Warrior" / "Mage" / "Thief" works well. If you end up with, say, a Paladin, a Druid and a Bard, well, that's team "We win D&D" due to their flexibility and breadth of abilities. But if you have a Fighter, a Wizard and a Rogue, the tropes are a little more solid and everyone has their skill/talent niche.

Having two or three of the same class seems nice on paper, and if it's what the players want, fine... but don't force it to suit your game. Let the players create what they want to play (Session 0 helps here) and if they don't adapt well, let them figure it out.

daniel_ream
2017-08-13, 11:15 PM
The creator of Leverage is quoted as saying that he's used D&D's structure as a model for his series.

[citation needed]

It's possible, I suppose, John Rogers wrote for D&D 4E. But given that Leverage is entirely heist-by-numbers and is indistinguishable from the A-Team, Mission Impossible, Ocean's N for 11 <= N <= 13, The Sting, Ronin, Heist (clearly) and just about every heist movie/show ever, I'd want to see a direct sourced quote before I believe that.

Knaight
2017-08-14, 01:18 AM
You can pick up the Quick Start Rules for Leverage from DTRPG for about $2. It's worth it. Fate Core is around $25, if I'm not mistaken, the Fate SRD is free online, and there are dozens of pay-what-you-want campaign frames and worldbooks available for Fate.

Fate Core is pay what you want, which in this case means free. Blades in the Dark comes from the same company, and that's the game really worth looking at. Among other things it outright assumes that the PCs are members of a criminal organization, and generally in roles that fit the term "rogue" in a much more general sense than the D&D class.

Herobizkit
2017-08-14, 05:46 AM
[citation needed]

It's possible, I suppose, John Rogers wrote for D&D 4E. But given that Leverage is entirely heist-by-numbers and is indistinguishable from the A-Team, Mission Impossible, Ocean's N for 11 <= N <= 13, The Sting, Ronin, Heist (clearly) and just about every heist movie/show ever, I'd want to see a direct sourced quote before I believe that.You got me. I don't have a direct quote. I think I heard him mention it in one of Wil Wheaton's Tabletop YT videos, probably the one for Fiasco.

Also this tweet:

https://twitter.com/jonrog1/status/846836093991378944

though it doesn't state D&D specifically. He's also currently writing for a D&D comic.

Florian
2017-08-14, 07:56 AM
Can anyone tell me WHY they don't think D&D 5e would work?

Two very simple reasons:
- D&D is rigged for combat and doesnīt provide any real depth to anything besides that.
- The skill system is binary and focuses on single tasks, which you either pass or fail.

The "Heist" genre runs on narrative juice, making an apparent "mistake" and then comes the big turnabout that reveals "genius planing". D&D 5E doesnīt have any means to simulate this, quite the opposite.

Fate Core has already been mentioned and we can talk about why that works, but google "Lady Blackbird", a free indie RPG to see how a more "magic" spin can work.

shadowkat678
2017-08-14, 03:30 PM
Two very simple reasons:
- D&D is rigged for combat and doesnīt provide any real depth to anything besides that.
- The skill system is binary and focuses on single tasks, which you either pass or fail.


Okay, I'm getting that there are games specifically geared towards stealth. I get that D&D doesn't have the best stealth mechanics. I get that the skill system can sometimes be (not always. Or even most of the time for me. Depends on the GM, and I'm going to get to that) pass or fail. I get that, how a lot of people run it, the game is high magic. I get that homebrew is hard, especially for someone as new as me, who only really started playing around six or seven months ago, and who's first exposure was a weekend at a con a little further with AD&D, which is completely different. I get all that.

What I don't get is how people think it's mainly rigged for combat because, from what I assume, there being no system for stories and stuff. To which I ask: Why would it? I don't want someone telling me how to run my story. Yes, give me guidelines for mechanics, but don't give me anything for stories. If I want that I'll get a module. And you don't have to roll for everything. For me, there's a lot of stuff I don't roll for. Roleplaying is a BIG part of D&D and why it became so big. Other games are set by more limits. Programming in video games, for instance.

Some of my favorite games, like I said, were ones with no fights at all, and my players loved it. It was roleplaying and interacting and almost no rolls were made. The depth is up to the DM. Because D&D isn't about limits.

That's why I love watching Critical Roll and Matt Mercer. Yeah, they're actors, but that really just applies to the character's RP and ability to stay in character. But it shows what can happen. Matt's made a story with overreaching character arcs, that's come together in ways no one really guessed. He's made engaging and reoccurring NPCs. The player characters evolve and develop. And that's why people watch it. But the rule book doesn't have that in it, because if it gave mechanics for how to roleplay and develop stories, then it those stories would be confined by the mechanics instead of GM creativity.

D&D is, at it's core, a game for collaborative story telling. And as someone who loves stories and writing stories, that's what I love about it. And it was the first of it's kind.

I don't think you're right about pass or fail. For me, even if they don't meet the DC, I might make it, say...well. I think it might be better to give an example. Since I was asking for feedback on a rogue campaign, I'll do something involving rogue type things:

Say the characters are trying to break in somewhere. They have to make a roll to break in through a window. The DC is 10.

They roll, and get a 8. You get through, but in doing so, make noise and alert a guard. You accomplished what you were there for, but now there's a complication you have to deal with. Which is a lot more interesting. Maybe you can still do something in time to keep from getting caught. Maybe you can wait at the door and knock him out when he comes in, to avoid detection.

Succeed? If it's by one or two, maybe something similar happens, but they're not alerted enough to go check it out. The players may or may not know this. Maybe they'll hear voices coming down the hall, asking their friend if they heard something or not. The other guard will tell them they're probably imagining things, but now that guard will probably be suspicious if something else happens. 15-twenty? Now you do get in without a problem. 1-5? Various bad things may happen. Maybe you flat out break the window. You can run, but now security will be tighter when you come back.

Sometimes they might not even NEED to roll until a certain point. For example, if they're persuading someone I might depend majorly on roleplay. This also depends on multiple factors. Who are you talking to? What are you trying to do? What is your relation to this NPC? Where are you? What's their alignment? Are you charismatic, and if not, why are you doing the talking with a CHA of -1?

For another example, haggling. Are the items hard to come by or common? How stubborn is the shop keep? Is it the owner your talking to or an employee while the owner is away? Is this a well known shop, or...maybe something shady that most don't know about?

Okay, so lets say it's shady. The party face wants some sleeping poison. It's hard to make, and not something that would be legally carried. On the up side, the guy running the shop doesn't have many customers and isn't protected by a guild. The party NPC is a charlatan with a background in scamming and haggling.

"Too high a price. I'll offer X. What? No? Well then. That's too bad.

Hear you aren't getting many sales, my friend. I actually have someone else who could supply me with what I'm after. Only issue is she got busted last week, and had to scram and leave her items to be confiscated. I'm sure she'll get back her supply soon though. Didn't want to wait until then, but I'm sure I can manage...oh, you'll go cheaper?
Lovely!"

Though, say, if the least charismatic member decided to butt in, there might be issues. Or if something happens to cause suspicion. At some point they may have to roll, and like the example with breaking and entering multiple things could happen. Maybe he gets the item, or what he thinks is the item, but by the time he finds out it's fake the dealer has moved to another location.

And, there's always the fact that the same thing doesn't work on everyone. If they're doing something based on a certain person, have they done their research? Have they tried to learn about them? Do they use what they learn? You can't intimidate them all. Some are cowards and will cave right in. For others, they might not buy it at all for reasons of pride or disbelief, and others might pretend to back off, then gather some friends and track down your ass. Age old wisdom: "Know your mark".

If you think D&D is just about combat, and that the mechanics are absolute, I'm sorry, but I don't think you guys are doing it right. Even in combat some of these things can apply. Maybe you miss a hit, but are able to get the opponent in a place that would be to your advantage next round. Maybe you hit, but in the process something else could happen. PCs aren't the only ones who can be creative in combat, maybe the enemy will spot something that could help them. A rogue npc ends up next to a box of sawdust and uses it's item interaction to fling it in the players eye and temporarily blind them.

One thing's for certain. From what I've experienced D&D isn't as clear cut in these areas as a lot of people seem to be implying here, and I'm not sure what you've been playing, but it seems quite different from what I have. I'm open to suggestions about making things better, and I really appreciate all the stuff you guys have been pointing me to, because a lot of them look really cool, but...I guess it's irritating to keep hearing this same thing about D&D when it certainly hasn't been that way for me, and I haven't even had to really change rules to do this stuff.

The handbook should never tell you how to run your game except for the basic things you need, like how to come up with your character stats, basic items (though you can always add to the list), races, backgrounds, etc. Adding anything else. How you play. The atmosphere. How much you use the rules and for what...that's up to the person running it. From what I understand, that's how it's been since the start, unless you're one of the "By the book and only by the book!" people, in which case it must get pretty boring. That doesn't mean the game itself is designed to not have depth.

Edit: Also, is there a way to quote past messages after hitting send? And how do you quote more than one person while notifying them? I'm new to the forum and am not sure how it all works here.

Florian
2017-08-15, 07:34 AM
@shadowkat678:

What you describe is basic "mother may I?"-style roleplaying. Thatīs good in the beginning but it tends to have trouble when the illusion behind it breaks.

The next higher step for cooperative storytelling is either giving your players the tools that help them making informed decisions, which can be either expressed as rules or you hand out limited narrative control, limiting gm fiat.

Letīs talk about the rules aspect first. Why don't we just roll a "Battle Skill" and be done with it? Because the stakes are high and it involves the whole party. Try to take an authors stance here, then "combat" is a very involved action "scene" that is governed by the rules behind it, and all involved players know their part, know their chances of success and have an idea how to contribute.

Again, take the author stance and think about different kinds of games/campaigns, like "Courtly Intrigue" or "Merchants of Venice". Now thereīre also high stakes, like with combat, and the opportunity to set up whole "scenes" around the topic.
So, contrast simple skill use (or gm fiat) with what happens in combat. You donīt roll "kill Orc", but if the Bard wanted to seduce a noblewoman and the fighter should distract the bodyguard, itīs diplomacy and bluff once each. Notice the difference in execution and possible outcome, because combat rarely hinges on passing two rolls - and, if one fails, weīre again back at gm fiat. So, thatīs the basis for things like "Social Combat", "Skill Challenge" or "Intrigue".

Let me stress it at this point: Gm fiat only works until the illusion breaks down. Once players become aware that neither their rolls (in extension, their characters), nor their actions (and in extension, their agency) matter because the gm overrules the result, the game loses tension and players are more likely to try and "break out" of the box.

The other method involves sharing narrative control with the players. Let me give you an example roughly based on the "Gumshoe" system. Keep "scenes" in mind for this explanation.
Letīs define the important parts of the narrative for a "heist" game: "Planning", "Scouting", "Stealthing", "Thieving", "Conning", "Fighting" (just examples) and very important: "Setback".
Letīs say, each player might pick 5 tokens representing what his character is good at (A-Team Face gets 2x "Seduction" and 3x "Fast Talk"). When a scene comes up with one of the tied aspects, a player can spent one or more tokens and take control over the narrative how the scene plays out. If thereīs not enough tokens, the gm can offer some, but gains a equal number of "Setback" tokens in return, to work in sudden twists or unforeseen events.

Both approaches actually make it easier to role-play and stay in character.

Letīs take Legend of the Five Rings as an example. The subsystems used here are "Combat", "War", "Duel (Swords, Words, Magic)" and "Court", as thatīs what most important for a samurai.

shadowkat678
2017-08-15, 10:46 AM
@shadowkat678:

What you describe is basic "mother may I?"-style roleplaying. Thatīs good in the beginning but it tends to have trouble when the illusion behind it breaks.

The next higher step for cooperative storytelling is either giving your players the tools that help them making informed decisions, which can be either expressed as rules or you hand out limited narrative control, limiting gm fiat.

Letīs talk about the rules aspect first. Why don't we just roll a "Battle Skill" and be done with it? Because the stakes are high and it involves the whole party. Try to take an authors stance here, then "combat" is a very involved action "scene" that is governed by the rules behind it, and all involved players know their part, know their chances of success and have an idea how to contribute.

Again, take the author stance and think about different kinds of games/campaigns, like "Courtly Intrigue" or "Merchants of Venice". Now thereīre also high stakes, like with combat, and the opportunity to set up whole "scenes" around the topic.

So, contrast simple skill use (or gm fiat) with what happens in combat. You donīt roll "kill Orc", but if the Bard wanted to seduce a noblewoman and the fighter should distract the bodyguard, itīs diplomacy and bluff once each. Notice the difference in execution and possible outcome, because combat rarely hinges on passing two rolls - and, if one fails, weīre again back at gm fiat. So, thatīs the basis for things like "Social Combat", "Skill Challenge" or "Intrigue".

Let me stress it at this point: Gm fiat only works until the illusion breaks down. Once players become aware that neither their rolls (in extension, their characters), nor their actions (and in extension, their agency) matter because the gm overrules the result, the game loses tension and players are more likely to try and "break out" of the box.

The other method involves sharing narrative control with the players. Let me give you an example roughly based on the "Gumshoe" system. Keep "scenes" in mind for this explanation.

Letīs define the important parts of the narrative for a "heist" game: "Planning", "Scouting", "Stealthing", "Thieving", "Conning", "Fighting" (just examples) and very important: "Setback".

Letīs say, each player might pick 5 tokens representing what his character is good at (A-Team Face gets 2x "Seduction" and 3x "Fast Talk"). When a scene comes up with one of the tied aspects, a player can spent one or more tokens and take control over the narrative how the scene plays out. If thereīs not enough tokens, the gm can offer some, but gains a equal number of "Setback" tokens in return, to work in sudden twists or unforeseen events.

Both approaches actually make it easier to role-play and stay in character.

Letīs take Legend of the Five Rings as an example. The subsystems used here are "Combat", "War", "Duel (Swords, Words, Magic)" and "Court", as thatīs what most important for a samurai.

Isn't that an actual alternative rule? Because I actually remember reading about that when I was thinking about house rules. I believe, though this was near four months ago, I brought it up with my players. Can't that result in some complications, especially if they don't have the full information?

Like, if they're generic NPCs that aren't important and tied as major players to the story, that's one thing. But what if they don't think a NPC is,but they turn out to actually have some involvement that would color their reactions to the encounter?

And I don't think I fully understand what you mean by illusion and their actions not mattering. Like I said, sometimes they won't even need to roll. It a character can get the guard to follow by being convincing enough, they'll be distracted. Even if they fail a roll, depending on how things have been handled so far by them and how the NPC is the DC will be affected and the DC number difference on passing and failing will provide a number of different results, all of which they can react to instead of being shoehorned into one outcome. I guess I'm worried because, since this IS story driven and not hack and slash or different unrelated adventures every session, that something could end up going wrong with that approach.

I have thought of implementing a alternative rule for inspiration, where the player can use it against the DM for my rolls as well as using it for their own. Though it's still a one time use. Or, maybe they can influence a small part of the interaction by changing on aspect not having to do with the NPC.

Say, they're having to run and go "I use my inspiration, and say that there's a window over here that someone forgot to unlock, with a tree outside we can jump to for our escape!"

Or "Hey, I forgot I had this vial of acid in my bag! That could help with this iron whatever it is!"

Something like that. Or maybe even give each character a "influence token" a game to do something like this, baring a few things like putting something in a location that would make no sense, or "here's a door that leads straight to the place we need to end up, without going through any trouble!"

Or

"Oh my goodness! I've had the legendary sword of bad guy slaying that kills anything with so much as a scratch with me this WHOLE TIME!"

I'm more than willing to hear suggestions for more stuff like that to implement. I'm just a bit weary giving them something that could have such a big affect NPCs and entire scenes. Not to mention that would leave the other characters out if one person was doing it.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean with gm fiat? I understand it's in reference to something I was talking about with my GMing style. I also kinda like the idea of setback tokens, but at the same time wouldn't that just take more out of their control, instead of complications being the result of their own actions in handling situations?

Again, if it wasn't heavily story driven, I'd probably like using them, but it makes me think of that "player vs GM" mentality. Where I would be actively trying to put something in their way trying to make it harder, besides what's already there. Unless I'm understanding their purpose incorrectly. Which could always be possible.

Vogie
2017-08-15, 12:58 PM
I like the idea.

The reason that I think D&D is a good idea for a system like this, beyond the OP's familiarity to it, is that the stealth system is a bit lackluster. That allows for them to be more open and role-play-y than a more defined system. While I don't play 5e myself, I listen to many 5e games via podcasts, and the non-combat aspects are just as intriguing as the combat.

I like the concept that this crew isn't well-funded, but may have a large collection of magical tools for various roguelike desires available to them. This could be within the guildhall, and are signed out to them when they received their missions, or scattered about the city after the Episode 1 incident, giving you the narrative ability to stretch out their equipment until they locate the various guild safehouses that have the various tools they need.

One idea to help the players better get into the rogue mindset is to not allow anyone to be a rogue. You can certainly give them whatever tools that they need, including giving them all the class features of a rogue (thief) in addition to their normal class progressions. This gets the players out of the "to be a thief I must do X" mindset, and allows them to jump into ideas like "how can I be a ye olde ward hacker" or "maybe being able to change into a bat is important" or "The best way to infiltrate the building is by getting paid to walk in the front door as security".

Early on, give them a way to communicate with each other, some sort of a telepathic bond headset/ring/unslotted walkie-talkie-esque item, so they can act and converse with each other while not being within earshot or on different stories of the same building, so you don't have to split the party if there's someone watching the street as the others are breaking into the roof. You can also use that as a potential weakness down the line, later in the arc, when those items are stolen or just stop working.

This type of game will have a lot of maps, possibly even blueprints (or equivalent) of buildings - make sure early on that the players discover they can't rely on these. That will save you the trouble of constantly having to think them up and provide them. Not because "you don't want to" (which you do not always want to), but rather that they understand that you aren't beholden to those printouts and maps - walls wear there weren't before, guards where they weren't indicated, passages changed, et cetera.

Even though you're running 5e, I would suggest you also use the skill challenge mechanic from 4e from time to time. That's a great roleplay mechanic, which allows you to tie non-combat action pieces (Running down halls or through alley ways, training or surveillance montages, et cetera) to their skill checks, and fosters your players to think outside the box about their abilities.

If it's all in one city, make sure there are interesting urban design mechanics that can be used by the PCs. Perhaps there are trains that circle the city (like those from The Dark Knight trilogy or Divergent), or a system of bridges and wires that allow for interesting movement across rooftops (such as from mirror's edge, Legend of Korra or Arrow), or an overabundance of waterways (venice, Amsterdam) to maneuver through.

shadowkat678
2017-08-15, 01:22 PM
I like the idea.

The reason that I think D&D is a good idea for a system like this, beyond the OP's familiarity to it, is that the stealth system is a bit lackluster. That allows for them to be more open and role-play-y than a more defined system. While I don't play 5e myself, I listen to many 5e games via podcasts, and the non-combat aspects are just as intriguing as the combat.
It was Critical Role where I really first started realizing how in depth the game could be. Really the only one I've seen though, sadly.



I like the concept that this crew isn't well-funded, but may have a large collection of magical tools for various roguelike desires available to them. This could be within the guildhall, and are signed out to them when they received their missions, or scattered about the city after the Episode 1 incident, giving you the narrative ability to stretch out their equipment until they locate the various guild safehouses that have the various tools they need.

Interesting idea. Certainly nothing too high level though. There'd probably be something in place for rank when it comes to what you can get. Certainly you wouldn't want your most valuable tools gone due to some rookies making a mistake and getting caught or killed.



One idea to help the players better get into the rogue mindset is to not allow anyone to be a rogue. You can certainly give them whatever tools that they need, including giving them all the class features of a rogue (thief) in addition to their normal class progressions. This gets the players out of the "to be a thief I must do X" mindset, and allows them to jump into ideas like "how can I be a ye olde ward hacker" or "maybe being able to change into a bat is important" or "The best way to infiltrate the building is by getting paid to walk in the front door as security".

I do think I'd probably limit a few classes though, because why would a paladin be thieving? They could probably decide their specialties, and they could start out with extra skills via feats to show that they're trained in it. Like for those who climb a lot, I could turn the Second Story Climber into a feat to give.



Early on, give them a way to communicate with each other, some sort of a telepathic bond headset/ring/unslotted walkie-talkie-esque item, so they can act and converse with each other while not being within earshot or on different stories of the same building, so you don't have to split the party if there's someone watching the street as the others are breaking into the roof. You can also use that as a potential weakness down the line, later in the arc, when those items are stolen or just stop working.
I actually was debating if I should steal Matt's idea of giving his players magic communication items like their earbuds. I really like that idea.



This type of game will have a lot of maps, possibly even blueprints (or equivalent) of buildings - make sure early on that the players discover they can't rely on these. That will save you the trouble of constantly having to think them up and provide them. Not because "you don't want to" (which you do not always want to), but rather that they understand that you aren't beholden to those printouts and maps - walls wear there weren't before, guards where they weren't indicated, passages changed, et cetera.
Map making is probably what I look forward to the LEAST! I don't suppose you have any resources and tips to share?



Even though you're running 5e, I would suggest you also use the skill challenge mechanic from 4e from time to time. That's a great roleplay mechanic, which allows you to tie non-combat action pieces (Running down halls or through alley ways, training or surveillance montages, et cetera) to their skill checks, and fosters your players to think outside the box about their abilities.
Can you elaborate a little on how this would work? I haven't played 4e, and I don't really understand how your describing it. Would you be able to give an example?



If it's all in one city, make sure there are interesting urban design mechanics that can be used by the PCs. Perhaps there are trains that circle the city (like those from The Dark Knight trilogy or Divergent), or a system of bridges and wires that allow for interesting movement across rooftops (such as from mirror's edge, Legend of Korra or Arrow), or an overabundance of waterways (venice, Amsterdam) to maneuver through.

Definitely. Been trying to think of what to use. I think this will be a major port city. Possibly canals. Lots of winding alleys. Very cluttered. Possibly some abandoned buildings in certain parts of town to duck into. Some sanctuary houses where they can hide, offered to them by past people they've helped.

Florian
2017-08-15, 01:51 PM
@Shadowkat678:

Skill Challenges in a nutshell: You assign a task, set a difficulty and complexity. (Ex: "Infiltrate the outer manor grounds", DC 10, 3 pass before 3 fail).

Every player can then declare a skill (or attack) with which to contribute to the Skill Challenge and describes the basic intended result. Example would be the Wizard using knowledge arcane and creates an illusion that hides the group approaching the gate, the Fighter using attack to hoist the Rogue over the Wall, the Rogue uses Stealth to open the gate from the inside.
Naturally, for each fail, the group has to adapt with another idea and skill roll.

Later, on the same mission, you could well do a "The manor is burning, flee, get out of here", DC 12, 4 before 4...

shadowkat678
2017-08-15, 01:59 PM
And that's what your saying is for D&D style, correct?

Potato_Priest
2017-08-15, 02:16 PM
Don't let people tell you not to run a game that you would like to play in. If the DM isn't interested in the game, the game won't be interesting for the players either, even if it's in their favorite genre. Remember that the goal is for everyone, including the DM, to have fun, and that happens best when the DM is engaged.

My friend (and frequent co-DM) enjoys running games set in dark, oppressive empires, while I like to run mine set in forests and wildlands chock full of fey.

Despite my own genre preferences, if he was running the game, I'd far rather play in a dark, oppressive empire than a sylvan forest, because he is going to be more inspired, and the entire world is going to flow better.



Minor Nitpicky question: How is the organiation that the players belong to a "guild"? Does it offer training and legal advocacy on behalf of its members in exchange for dues, like a real guild, or is it more one like the thieves' guilds in many games, which generally tend to be mere organized crime.?

shadowkat678
2017-08-15, 02:37 PM
Minor Nitpicky question: How is the organiation that the players belong to a "guild"? Does it offer training and legal advocacy on behalf of its members in exchange for dues, like a real guild, or is it more one like the thieves' guilds in many games, which generally tend to be mere organized crime.?

It's definitely a guild. They watch for possible recruits with skills in stealth and other possible areas, that don't seem corrupted yet. Then they bring them in and train them. Then once they're ready they start going out on small missions, and bigger missions over time. They have rules and watch out for each other when possible, although if you get caught there often isn't much they can do. Their a small group, and already at risk. Having to move base a lot and take multiple precautions against all the enemies they've made.

Vogie
2017-08-15, 03:31 PM
It was Critical Role where I really first started realizing how in depth the game could be. Really the only one I've seen though, sadly.

Both Drunks & Dragons and Godsfall have long stretches of not-combat. There's often combat, sure, but the players will occasionally maneuver around it.


Interesting idea. Certainly nothing too high level though. There'd probably be something in place for rank when it comes to what you can get. Certainly you wouldn't want your most valuable tools gone due to some rookies making a mistake and getting caught or killed..

Precisely. Since they're all supposed to be actual guilded thieves, not thieves-in-training, this makes sense. You don't need to lose your best safecracker on a smash-n-grab gone wrong, et cetera.


I do think I'd probably limit a few classes though, because why would a paladin be thieving? They could probably decide their specialties, and they could start out with extra skills via feats to show that they're trained in it. Like for those who climb a lot, I could turn the Second Story Climber into a feat to give. .

I think a paladin could walk a fine line, be a sort of "Friar Tuck" or "Shepherd Book" of the group. As a paladin would certainly attack to retrieve kidnapped people, so stealing the stolen back to the rightful owners could certainly fit within a paladin oath. It would allow you to present the party with situations where the obvious way to solve the problem would either make the paladin an oathbreaker, or that s/he would have to sit the dungeon out... unless they find another way to do it (and there is another way to do it).


I actually was debating if I should steal Matt's idea of giving his players magic communication items like their earbuds. I really like that idea..

I would shy away from the ease of use and hidden-ness of earbuds. If they do have communication items, they need to be able to be dropped, broken or stolen. Another way to provide a similar service is the use of a Mind-mage, a Oracle-meets-Jace Beleran-Type character who serves that purpose. If you don't want to have a "Mind-hacker" in the group of PCs, perhaps it's an NPC that tags along to provide that service... and can possibly be captured/interfered with. Always give yourself levers to hijink the players if you get into a tough spot... or just keep them on their toes. Even the best telepathic headbands may fall off if you hang upside down enough.


Map making is probably what I look forward to the LEAST! I don't suppose you have any resources and tips to share?.

I would collect map tiles that you can throw together quickly. I grabbed THESE (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1359238179/dungeon-explore-tabletop-rpg-tile-card-deck) from kickstarter, and you can also find similar tools in board games like Betrayal at the House on the Hill (https://www.amazon.com/Betrayal-At-House-Hill-2nd/dp/B003HC9734) or Saboteur. You can hunt down a couple actual building designs, then use bits and pieces of them (the first floor is this building, the second floor is that building), and grab some old (http://londontopia.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Sherlock-1a.jpg) maps to use for your city (or steal one from Sherlock Holmes, consulting detective), and some subway maps to use for sewer or train systems. You want to make it as easy as possible to generate a layout on the fly.

You can also play things by ear, based on the decisions on the players. There's no reason to think about a sewer system, for example, unless they bring it up, and also pass a Knowledge(Local) check to know if that building has accessible sewers. Of course, if they grew up with TMNT, then that's a given, lol.


Can you elaborate a little on how this would work? I haven't played 4e, and I don't really understand how your describing it. Would you be able to give an example?.

Precisely what the above said. You set a DC, based on the PC's levels, and a target number of successes to pass to avoid conflict. The PCs roll initiative, then choose and roll various skills and explain what they do to pass the check.

For example: Alice, Bob, Charlie, and Denise are running from guards, DC 11. 6 Successes before 3 fails
A: I'm going to Slam the door behind us and jam it shut. Strength 15, ...Pass, it's stuck, and you hear the guards cursing and calling for a battering ram
B: We need to find another way out, Perception 17, ... Pass - you see an open window across the alley from this window that you can likely make
C: I'm going to dimension door over to the other building, Arcane 3, ... Fail - You blink from existence, and appear... in midair in the alleyway, falling through a cart
D: I'm going to jump for it, athletics 16 ... Pass, the remaining three of you dive into the window tuck and roll, and notice that Charlie isn't with you
A: What building are we in and how do we get out? Knowledge(Local) 19... Pass - This is your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate's building and you know the back stairs
B: I'm going to Parkour over the stairs to get out even faster - Acrobatics 5... you do jump, but your foot hits the railing and you land in a heap, and hear the guards breaking through this door.
C: I'll pretend like I'm a citizen who got knocked over by the party and tell the guards that the people they're chasing went the other way, Deception 11... Pass, just barely, and that patrol runs past you

And so on. If they get too many fails, it turns into a combat, or a "quicktime event" where some or all of the party gets captured.


Definitely. Been trying to think of what to use. I think this will be a major port city. Possibly canals. Lots of winding alleys. Very cluttered. Possibly some abandoned buildings in certain parts of town to duck into. Some sanctuary houses where they can hide, offered to them by past people they've helped.

Good. Don't be afraid to make a bizarre San Fransokyo-style amalgamation of a city. Don't get caught up in the details, but do have a vague idea of where the residential/commercial/industrial zones are.

shadowkat678
2017-08-15, 03:40 PM
Precisely what the above said. You set a DC, based on the PC's levels, and a target number of successes to pass to avoid conflict. The PCs roll initiative, then choose and roll various skills and explain what they do to pass the check.

For example: Alice, Bob, Charlie, and Denise are running from guards, DC 11. 6 Successes before 3 fails
A: I'm going to Slam the door behind us and jam it shut. Strength 15, ...Pass, it's stuck, and you hear the guards cursing and calling for a battering ram
B: We need to find another way out, Perception 17, ... Pass - you see an open window across the alley from this window that you can likely make
C: I'm going to dimension door over to the other building, Arcane 3, ... Fail - You blink from existence, and appear... in midair in the alleyway, falling through a cart
D: I'm going to jump for it, athletics 16 ... Pass, the remaining three of you dive into the window tuck and roll, and notice that Charlie isn't with you
A: What building are we in and how do we get out? Knowledge(Local) 19... Pass - This is your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate's building and you know the back stairs
B: I'm going to Parkour over the stairs to get out even faster - Acrobatics 5... you do jump, but your foot hits the railing and you land in a heap, and hear the guards breaking through this door.
C: I'll pretend like I'm a citizen who got knocked over by the party and tell the guards that the people they're chasing went the other way, Deception 11... Pass, just barely, and that patrol runs past you

And so on. If they get too many fails, it turns into a combat, or a "quicktime event" where some or all of the party gets captured.

Wouldn't that leave room for even less roleplay and decision making though, then what I have been doing? Personally, I hate forcing players into fights over something like that. Don't see the appeal.

For instance, my players were on the way to Thundertree in my current game. They went to sleep with a watch set. I had rolled on a random encounter beforehand, and it was an owlbear. Instead of just making it attack, it was attracted to the camp by the smell of food. They then had a chance to choose how to react. They drove it off with a clever illusion. And when I told them later there were ash zombies they could see up ahead, they discussed, said they'd sneak around it, and did. If the zombies had seen them they would give chase. But unless they turned to fight on their own, or were cornered, I wouldn't put up initiative. And if they found a way out and escaped they just would.

daniel_ream
2017-08-15, 09:02 PM
I'm more than willing to hear suggestions for more stuff like that to implement.

We've been pointing you to games that incorporate those concepts into the core design for a page now.

shadowkat678
2017-08-15, 09:04 PM
We've been pointing you to games that incorporate those concepts into the core design for a page now.
Yeah. I mentioned that earlier. Have them pulled up to look at.

Herobizkit
2017-08-16, 05:05 AM
The "issue" people seem to keep having is that D&D is a role-playing game. There are two parts here:

Role-playing: pretending you're people with fantastic powers and abilities.
Game: A system of challenges for players to overcome and be rewarded.

At its bare bones, if you and your table spend all your time talking to one another, building an amazing narrative where things happen and you never roll a die, that's great. That's fun for a lot of people. But, are you playing a 'game' at that point, or are you simply just telling stories? Some might argue that talking isn't part of 'the game'.

D&D, at its core, is a system designed to use dice to overcome challenges. It's what it is... a system, with rules and guidelines on how to adjudicate actions taken by players and NPC/monsters with heavy emphasis on combat (D&D's earliest roots were founded in board wargaming). Over the years, people have come to accept D&D as the McDonald's, or the Coke, or... I don't know, the beer and pretzels game of hitting things and taking their stuff that everyone knows and loves (or at least kind of understands). The system CAN be used for other in-game story concepts (and indeed, 5e is trying to 'get back' to narrative story-telling being more prevalent), but it will always do Combat 'the best' out of the box.

So, any time a player is asked to do something besides Combat, the DM has to figure out how to represent those action in-game. Climbing a tree, for example; most DM's would call for an Athletics (STR) check with a Difficulty target number... which he has to sort of make up, because there are no clear definitions of what is easy vs hard. If that character has the Sailor/Pirate background, the DM might not even call for a Climb check and rule that player can climb it s if it were sail riggings. There are no consequences for failure, so no check is needed. That part of the 'encounter' is rendered moot and the game continues to the next 'scene'.

(side note: Because the DM sets the DC, the DM can always set it higher than the player can actually achieve and thereby make them auto-fail. It's unfair, but but that's the price of the 'illusion of choice')

Point is: the obstacles that require the most adjudication and take up the most time in the D&D 'game' is Combat. In the guidebooks, the novice DM is directed as to approximately how many fights per adventuring day a group of players is 'expected' to have, and that number is 'somewhat high'. The fights could run short or long, easy or hard, and may or may not cause PC's to delay and/or heal. In short, the biggest game obstacle has the biggest chunk of material dedicated to overcoming said obstacle.

And in a stealth/heist game, most of this is ignored... because if you're fighting, you've already failed or on your way to failing, exciting as it is. And there are other systems better suited for simulating such things. ^_^

Vogie
2017-08-16, 07:30 AM
Wouldn't that leave room for even less roleplay and decision making though, then what I have been doing? Personally, I hate forcing players into fights over something like that. Don't see the appeal.

For instance, my players were on the way to Thundertree in my current game. They went to sleep with a watch set. I had rolled on a random encounter beforehand, and it was an owlbear. Instead of just making it attack, it was attracted to the camp by the smell of food. They then had a chance to choose how to react. They drove it off with a clever illusion. And when I told them later there were ash zombies they could see up ahead, they discussed, said they'd sneak around it, and did. If the zombies had seen them they would give chase. But unless they turned to fight on their own, or were cornered, I wouldn't put up initiative. And if they found a way out and escaped they just would.

You have the power to decide the limitations of the skill challenge, and typically it requires the players to look at their character sheet, and use those skills that they normally don't use to complete the challenge... without worrying about spell slots, ammo, or HP. You still have the ability to have them move around in a manner similar to what you described, it's just another tool.

You could just as easily made the owlbear episode a skill challenge. Maybe one player dives into the bushes (acrobatics), maybe another starts getting their armor on (Athletics), and the third player creates the illusion (arcana), and the first player rustles the bushes to make it seem that the illusion was both real and not alone (Knowledge Nature). The difference is that if they all failed at whatever they were attempting, they'd still have to do the combat, with another initiative roll and everything as normal.

Florian
2017-08-17, 12:58 AM
@Shadowkat678:

Herobizkit hit the important point that a RPG is a hybrid of storytelling and game, in that playing the game will generate the actual narrative while the gm is in control of setting and situations to influence the emerging narrative - providing content to interact with.

The difference we talk about is how game and meta levels interact.

On the one hand, when you have the whole plot already planned out, your players are only minor contributors to it and you could tell them the whole story, as everything they want to do can only happen in relation to the scenes you provide and their actions, which they discuss as players, have to be approved by you as the gm. The usual problem with that approach is that failure is not an option because the story is ruined then, so gm fiat comes into it, fudging the dice or not letting people roll in the first place to avoid that situation. I.e. "Mother, may I sneak around the Owlbear?".

The main reason to play it as a game is to introduce controlled randomness that will also govern the possibility of failure. The outcome is never certain, but everyone has a chance to "buy into" what he thinks his character should be good at/bad at, thereby having influence on the outcome of a given scene. This is a huge step away from the meta-level that players talk about their group actions and the gm approving and rather focuses on the characters and what is happening "in game". I.e. the narrative will shift to "How we tried to avoid an Owlbear".

Understanding the "illusion" here is important. When the plot is already set and the players have only agency to act within the confines of the plot, anything that would prevent them from going forward must be hand-waved away.

To use "Gumshoe" as an example, every scene automatically gives the "major clue" that will enable the characters to take the logical steps to the next scene. Within each scene, you can use the game system to provide challenges that will give additional clues or background information that will help you in the next (or a later) scene, but is a reward for "good gaming", but with failure also being an option.

Nifft
2017-08-17, 01:23 AM
So, here's an idea from how I ran Shadowrun, which is a combat-heavy, detailed-simulation game not entirely unlike D&D, but the premise is very heist-like. (Thus the premise doesn't match the mechanics -- again, much like your D&D heist game.)

Skill checks are swingy. Moreover, one critical stealth or deception failure will fail the stealth portion of the mission and initiate Plan B, which is life-or-death combat.

I wanted the tension of a heist TV movie, where you see people using up resources and barely avoiding detection, until suddenly things go pear-shaped and guns are blazing.


What I did to get this behavior out of the system is invent a resource -- "Plan Dice" -- which represented the planning that the players did before the heist. Each player covered one area, and each area was rolled:
- Hacking - computer infiltration & cybernetic subversion
- Social Engineering - getting to know one or more people at the target site, preferably in bed
- Research - public records, physical scouting, talking to underworld contacts
- Astral Scouting - magical recon & sabotage, talking to spirits

Shadowrun is a game of dice pools, in which you roll a bunch of dice and count the number that exceed a threshold. That's your success pool. For the "Plan Dice", I had each area of the plan rolled, and the successes were set aside -- I drew boxes on a white-board, one for each success.

These boxes represented the quality of the plan.


Now, when the PCs wanted to do something on their plan -- like walk through the front door with a stolen ID -- they rolled as normal, but if the roll wouldn't have succeeded, they could take successes from one of the Plan Dice pools.

This meant their plan would be successful, up to a point -- there were a very limited number of boxes, and they can't get any more.

Moreover, they knew which areas had more "slack" -- so if you ran out of Hacking dice first, your next computer interaction was going to be a lot more risky. The players were able to choose their risks. So this was like in a heist movie, when the main character knows exactly how he's screwed, and then has to do desperate things in a different direction.

It worked great (for us).


So, how to adapt this to D&D? I'm not sure. I don't know how many skill checks you're going to require per heist. I don't know how badly your PCs are going to flub their checks.

My general advice for fine-tuning would be: make it easy to get enough bonus points to get all the way in, but not all the way out.

Florian
2017-08-17, 02:35 AM
Hah, yes, Shadowrun is a very good example for when intended game and supporting rule system absolutely donīt match. I think itīs actually working when you start "in media res": Ok, youīve got the pay data/hostage/corp exec, now work your way out of the facility.

Vogie
2017-08-17, 07:37 AM
What I did to get this behavior out of the system is invent a resource -- "Plan Dice" -- which represented the planning that the players did before the heist. Each player covered one area, and each area was rolled:
- Hacking - computer infiltration & cybernetic subversion
- Social Engineering - getting to know one or more people at the target site, preferably in bed
- Research - public records, physical scouting, talking to underworld contacts
- Astral Scouting - magical recon & sabotage, talking to spirits

Shadowrun is a game of dice pools, in which you roll a bunch of dice and count the number that exceed a threshold. That's your success pool. For the "Plan Dice", I had each area of the plan rolled, and the successes were set aside -- I drew boxes on a white-board, one for each success.

These boxes represented the quality of the plan.

Now, when the PCs wanted to do something on their plan -- like walk through the front door with a stolen ID -- they rolled as normal, but if the roll wouldn't have succeeded, they could take successes from one of the Plan Dice pools.

This meant their plan would be successful, up to a point -- there were a very limited number of boxes, and they can't get any more.


That's a great idea, actually. I was introduced to the skill challenge mechanic by listening to Drunks & Dragons, who also have an Inspiration mechanic that allow them to save up Inspiration points to use for rerolls. But I like this system better, as it captures the feel of planning a heist. In a D&D world these could be contained as:

Social Engineering - Getting information from the people close to the mark or target
Research - Physical or magical surveillance and understanding of the area and information thereof
Infiltration - gaining physical or magical access to some or all of the mark or target

daniel_ream
2017-08-17, 11:00 PM
What I did to get this behavior out of the system is invent a resource -- "Plan Dice" -- which represented the planning that the players did before the heist.

I came up with something nearly identical back in the day but with narrative impact. One thing I always hated about Shadowrun was that nearly all the time was spent planning the heist with every. possible. contingency planned for and backstopped. Four hours planning and a half hour playing. Ugh.

Under my system, you earned plot points you could use to establish facts in the fiction (as such things are used in a million other systems). The troll always had a lumpy hockey bag over one shoulder, we always started in medias res, and you could spend a plot point to have The Thing You Need Right Now (or the contact, or the ICE, or the man on the inside) in the bag. It became a resource management game: burn your plot points now, or rely on your standard gear and save them for later?

Also, if any of the planning rolls failed that meant a scene where something goes wrong. The arms dealer selling you the weapons tries to double cross you, the hacker slips up and corporate tracer ICE locks on to him and now you have to move the safe house, etc., etc.

Nifft
2017-08-18, 12:33 AM
I came up with something nearly identical back in the day but with narrative impact. One thing I always hated about Shadowrun was that nearly all the time was spent planning the heist with every. possible. contingency planned for and backstopped. Four hours planning and a half hour playing. Ugh.
That's exactly the same reason I did it!

The players would waste 90% of every session with second-guessing their previous contingency plans.

Rolling for the quality of the plan also harmonized the pink-mowhawk players with the mirror-shades players -- instead of trying to optimize the genre, they just rolled.


Under my system, you earned plot points you could use to establish facts in the fiction (as such things are used in a million other systems). The troll always had a lumpy hockey bag over one shoulder, we always started in medias res, and you could spend a plot point to have The Thing You Need Right Now (or the contact, or the ICE, or the man on the inside) in the bag. It became a resource management game: burn your plot points now, or rely on your standard gear and save them for later?

Also, if any of the planning rolls failed that meant a scene where something goes wrong. The arms dealer selling you the weapons tries to double cross you, the hacker slips up and corporate tracer ICE locks on to him and now you have to move the safe house, etc., etc.

I like that idea, too. I did something similar with Edge after playing some FATE games -- I allowed the players to spend Edge to establish a fact of the scene.

You could certainly use the same resource for both things, and it would work.

I wanted to separate the resources because Edge is a per-PC thing while "Plan Dice" were a shared pool, but it'd be easy enough to parcel out the Plan Dice, or to pool narrative points instead of using Edge.

daniel_ream
2017-08-18, 12:59 AM
the pink-mowhawk players with the mirror-shades players -- instead of trying to optimize the genre

I honestly have no idea what that means.

As a long-time genre literature fan, one of the things that irks me is how, as a 90% approximation, all RPGs are D&D and simply recycle D&D tropes. The only cyberpunk RPG I've ever seen that actually mimics the cyberpunk literature genre is I.C.E.'s Cyberspace (which is unplayable for other reasons).

Nifft
2017-08-18, 01:27 AM
I honestly have no idea what that means.
Pink Mohawk is a gonzo punk-rock aesthetic. You break into the target location by hurtling through the window in your car, and it's not a problem that the target location is on the 35th floor. The hacker is hacking the missile that he's riding on, to make its contrail spell out an insult before ramming it into the corporate spider's radar tower, and he's doing this as a distraction. GUNS OUT, BLAZE IT, SMASH YOUR GUITAR ON THE FACE OF AUTHORITY.

Black Trenchcoat is what I should have said as the opposite (not mirror shades) -- it's about covert operatives operating covertly, planning careful contingencies within fallbacks, the secret-agent stuff that assumes consequences are a clear and present danger. If there's violence, you want to end it hard and fast, and ideally in a way that lets you hide the mess. If you're not immediately overwhelming, you should assume an alarm goes out, and your job becomes 100x harder if not impossible. SILENCERS, THERMOPTIC CAMOUFLAGE, CODE WORD DRAKE SEVEN OVER.

Mirror Shades is apparently the middle-ground, with some aspects of the covert & careful game, but also some aspects of the loud & hilarious game.


What I mean by "genre optimization" was that some players think one style will get them a mechanical benefit over the other. The "Plan Dice" eliminated that worry.


As a long-time genre literature fan, one of the things that irks me is how, as a 90% approximation, all RPGs are D&D and simply recycle D&D tropes. The only cyberpunk RPG I've ever seen that actually mimics the cyberpunk literature genre is I.C.E.'s Cyberspace (which is unplayable for other reasons).

If you're up for adaptations, then I'd recommend looking at Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine.

It's not appropriate for Cyberpunk at all, but the idea of having character-specific arcs which advance some mental / physical / spiritual / magical / cybernetic / etc. component of that character -- from getting XP for denying your humanity, or getting XP for making your vision-quest relevant during play, or whatever -- it seems like it could be turned into a very good fit.

It's not going to be the whole system, but it could be a very useful component.

daniel_ream
2017-08-18, 02:00 AM
Pink Mohawk is a gonzo punk-rock aesthetic. You break into the target location by hurtling through the window in your car, and it's not a problem that the target location is on the 35th floor. The hacker is hacking the missile that he's riding on, to make its contrail spell out an insult before ramming it into the corporate spider's radar tower, and he's doing this as a distraction. GUNS OUT, BLAZE IT, SMASH YOUR GUITAR ON THE FACE OF AUTHORITY.

I can honestly say I've never encountered that. At least not to that extent; there was certainly plenty of the D&D "anything we find in this corporate tower is a monster to be killed and carrying the biggest weapons we can afford gives us more plusses", but that had more to do with the fact that Shadowrun adventures often had corporate security guards that were ludicrously over-cybered and statted.

I was always solidly in the Black Trenchcoat model because that's what actually happens in the source literature. Pink Mohawk sounds like a Kung Fury-esque parody of cyberpunk. Which might be fun as a one-off, I guess.


character-specific arcs which advance some mental / physical / spiritual / magical / cybernetic / etc. component of that character -- from getting XP for denying your humanity, or getting XP for making your vision-quest relevant during play, or whatever

Yeah, that's Keys from The Shadow of Yesterday. A number of indie games use the mechanic.

Florian
2017-08-19, 07:09 AM
Pink Mohawk sounds like a Kung Fury-esque parody of cyberpunk.

Nah, but that perception is the crux of the matter.

Pink Mohawk covers the more Hollywood-inspired style. More action, more chase scenes, more gunfights, and so on - itīs The Expendables vs. Ronin, if you so like.

shadowkat678
2017-08-19, 03:04 PM
I have a question, for those familiar with 5e and 3.5e, and this is saying if I did stay within the realm of D&D for this, would you think one would be better to handle this type of game than the other?

daniel_ream
2017-08-19, 05:29 PM
I don't think it matters. Neither game has much in the way of mechanical support for the kind of campaign you want to run, so you'll be doing the same amount of work either way. I might lean more towards 5E just because it has less CharOp culture devoted to it, and so there's less chance of the game getting dragged into endless gonzo setpiece combats.

shadowkat678
2017-08-19, 06:12 PM
I don't think it matters. Neither game has much in the way of mechanical support for the kind of campaign you want to run, so you'll be doing the same amount of work either way. I might lean more towards 5E just because it has less CharOp culture devoted to it, and so there's less chance of the game getting dragged into endless gonzo setpiece combats.

I am seeing game slang I do not know.

daniel_ream
2017-08-19, 07:22 PM
"CharOp culture" is a game play style that focuses on producing the most highly optimized character by exploiting weaknesses and corner cases in the character creation system. It's most well-known in 3.5/Pathfinder, but it goes back as long as there have been point-buy systems.

"gonzo setpiece battles" are big, long, complicated combat encounters that involve unusual terrain, monsters, environmental conditions, or anything that makes the encounter stand out as extraordinary. 3.5/PF strongly encourage this, and 4E was explicitly based around it.

shadowkat678
2017-08-19, 08:16 PM
"CharOp culture" is a game play style that focuses on producing the most highly optimized character by exploiting weaknesses and corner cases in the character creation system. It's most well-known in 3.5/Pathfinder, but it goes back as long as there have been point-buy systems.

"gonzo setpiece battles" are big, long, complicated combat encounters that involve unusual terrain, monsters, environmental conditions, or anything that makes the encounter stand out as extraordinary. 3.5/PF strongly encourage this, and 4E was explicitly based around it.

For the first one, just say "hey, if I say you can't swim up a waterfall like a salmon, waterfalls can't be something you swim up? Okay? Character and story driven game. Have fun. Min maxing not necessary. Neither is metagaming" and then everyone agrees. Like. If you don't have a way to fly over, and you ask to jump over a 300ft cavern, again "great bar twenty. You jump a whooping TWENTY EXTRA FEET...before plummeting. Anyone got something to catch this guy?"

If we're playing a serious and "realistic" kinda game, for lack of a better word, you all agree to that. Seems like a fairly easy script. You trust me not to unnecessarily screw you over with encounters that have no reason to happen, you guys drive the story through your in character actions without setting out to purposefully break or "win" the game. Sign here on the dotted line and proceed character creation.

For the second, sounds fun. If we ever DO have fights, having be: "I strike with my sword"

*rolls dice*

"Roll of 17 vs DC 15. HIT!"

Is a lot less fun. One thing I'm liking so far looking through the 3.5 pdf is there seems to be a lot more room for decision and personalizing a character, which would, I think, be good for a game where you're looking for individually specialized rolls. Really like the point buy idea because of that. And the races have pluses and minuses, which is pretty cool too.

I also like the pluses and minuses to DC based on conditions. Complicated, but...eh. Starting to think I just like complicated things. Seems to be everything I think of is something more complicated than it has to be...eh. I think it goes side by side with liking to expand choices. It even has more for out of combat.

I don't so much like not being able to break up your turn, but I feel like that could be put in.

I haven't played 3.5 though, so that's why I was asking someone who had experience playing both, without talking about any options outside those two. I was wondering if 3.5 would be good because the optimization, as I've been looking through it today.

daniel_ream
2017-08-19, 09:38 PM
One thing I'm liking so far looking through the 3.5 pdf is there seems to be a lot more room for decision and personalizing a character, which would, I think, be good for a game where you're looking for individually specialized rolls. Really like the point buy idea because of that. And the races have pluses and minuses, which is pretty cool too.

I also like the pluses and minuses to DC based on conditions. Complicated, but...eh. Starting to think I just like complicated things. Seems to be everything I think of is something more complicated than it has to be...eh. I think it goes side by side with liking to expand choices.

That's CharOp culture in a nutshell. Good luck with that, if you stick with 3.5.

I find it ironic that you're seeing "a lot more room for decision and personalizing a character" in 3.5 than 5E, because you have exactly the same scope for that in both systems. 3.5 merely gives you more explicit and complex game mechanics to represent your choices, where 5E simply abstracts that to "you have advantage/proficiency bonus or you don't".

It is exactly because neither 3.5 nor 5E has any mechanics to represent your choices when, say, running a complex heist to relieve a local noble of his family heirloom jewelry or manipulating two factions of the Thieves' Guild into a shadow war with each other so you can end up on top, that so many people recommended a different system to you in the first place.

shadowkat678
2017-08-19, 10:11 PM
That's CharOp culture in a nutshell. Good luck with that, if you stick with 3.5.

I find it ironic that you're seeing "a lot more room for decision and personalizing a character" in 3.5 than 5E, because you have exactly the same scope for that in both systems. 3.5 merely gives you more explicit and complex game mechanics to represent your choices, where 5E simply abstracts that to "you have advantage/proficiency bonus or you don't".

It is exactly because neither 3.5 nor 5E has any mechanics to represent your choices when, say, running a complex heist to relieve a local noble of his family heirloom jewelry or manipulating two factions of the Thieves' Guild into a shadow war with each other so you can end up on top, that so many people recommended a different system to you in the first place.

I'm talking about character choices. I still firmly believe that the story choices shouldn't have rules attached. They should figure out their heist and how to run it and make their choices themselves without confines in that aspect.

Nifft
2017-08-19, 10:24 PM
I have a question, for those familiar with 5e and 3.5e, and this is saying if I did stay within the realm of D&D for this, would you think one would be better to handle this type of game than the other?

IMHO 5e would be better because it's simpler, and because in 5e skills remain relevant for longer -- but in one specific respect 5e is worse, because the Stealth rules are a total mess. Other than the Stealth mechanics, everything else in 5e is better for a high-skill heist game.

3.5e has tons of spells that allow you to just plain bypass challenges, which is great if your goal is to be a Wizard who wins everything, but not great if you want skills to be an important part of the game beyond the lower levels. I like 3.5e a lot, but that's because I like cool Wizards walking away from explosions.


So my advice is:
- Look long & hard at 5e
- Find or invent better Stealth rules
- Enjoy the (modified) game

daniel_ream
2017-08-20, 12:40 AM
I'm talking about character choices. I still firmly believe that the story choices shouldn't have rules attached. They should figure out their heist and how to run it and make their choices themselves without confines in that aspect.

I really don't think you're grasping what I'm saying. Since you're clearly gotten over your aversion to PDFs and looking at other rules sets, I strongly recommend you look at Leverage and Blades in the Dark for an example of how to handle heists in an RPG, and Fate for a more general look at how to model challenges with something representable by mechanics (I'm talking about the Fate fractal, but you may have to dig up Worlds on Fire for a good example of it in use).

As just one example of what I'm talking about: suppose one of your thieves manages to abscond with the Duchess' diamond necklace and nearly makes it over the estate's wall but for the scullery maid raising a hue and cry at the last minute. The guards spot the thief, halloo and give chase.

What now?

In 3.5, you're kind of stymied, because there's no rules for this. The thief probably has a slightly higher movement rate due to encumbrance limits and so on, so he always gets away. Always. At best, you make a single opposed Dexterity check and that's the chase over and done.

By comparison, 5E has quite a nice little chase system that gives the players something to interact with and produces some nice results in the fiction, and lots of advice on how to extend the system for different types of chases.

Do you see my point? Different games have different rules to cover different kinds of situations. Some games have no rules whatsoever for certain situations; some games have generic resolution rules that try to handle any and every situation; some games have very detailed rules for every possible situation that could ever come up in the setting (I'm looking at you, Harn).

Now, I have no doubt someone is going to say that the GM can always make up some chase (or whatever) rules, or else the GM can just decide what happens. Of course the GM can. That's Rule Zero and it's true for every single RPG. But at some point, Rule Zeroing everything that comes up in the fiction because the game has no rules for it means you're making your own game, not playing an existing one with house rules.

Why not start with a game, or at least a set of mechanics, that's pretty close to what you want anyway? And exactly what harm is there in at least looking at the way other games have handled this same campaign frame?

Florian
2017-08-20, 01:35 AM
For the first one, just say "hey, if I say you can't swim up a waterfall like a salmon, waterfalls can't be something you swim up? Okay? Character and story driven game. Have fun. Min maxing not necessary. Neither is metagaming" and then everyone agrees. Like. If you don't have a way to fly over, and you ask to jump over a 300ft cavern, again "great bar twenty. You jump a whooping TWENTY EXTRA FEET...before plummeting. Anyone got something to catch this guy?"

If we're playing a serious and "realistic" kinda game, for lack of a better word, you all agree to that. Seems like a fairly easy script. You trust me not to unnecessarily screw you over with encounters that have no reason to happen, you guys drive the story through your in character actions without setting out to purposefully break or "win" the game. Sign here on the dotted line and proceed character creation.

Scrap that thought. 3.5E/PF uses a very different power scale and models a very different, more magical kind of reality. A rough comparison would set a level 20 D&D 5E Character at around a level 10 PF character or a level 5 3.5E spell caster.

A, say, PF Shadowdacer, Shadow Scion or Umbral Agent will start teleporting from shadow to shadow at around level 7, a Monk will simply walk along the walls/ceiling at the same time and any arcane spell caster will open any lock, no matter what, at around level 5.

You will notice an ongoing topic of "mundane vs. magic" in the 3.5E subforum, as anything to do with magic or supernatural abilities surpasses "realism" sooner than later (E6 (exit level 6) is a common format to stop leveling before that point).

daniel_ream
2017-08-20, 03:51 AM
(E6 (exit level 6) is a common format to stop leveling before that point).

That's actually E6 for "Epic Level 6", as it moves the "you stop leveling up" cutoff in 3.X from level 20 (normally the gateway to the Epic rules) down to 6, and adds "epic" feats to add in the iconic class features that only show up later, like the Druid's Wild Shape (Large).

tomandtish
2017-08-20, 01:14 PM
[citation needed]

It's possible, I suppose, John Rogers wrote for D&D 4E. But given that Leverage is entirely heist-by-numbers and is indistinguishable from the A-Team, Mission Impossible, Ocean's N for 11 <= N <= 13, The Sting, Ronin, Heist (clearly) and just about every heist movie/show ever, I'd want to see a direct sourced quote before I believe that.

I wonder if they are thinking of this interview (http://geekandsundry.com/how-managing-a-tv-show-is-like-running-a-dungeon/)...


What has gaming taught you about producing?

John Rogers: Creative flow. Listening to the group of people around you trying to be creative, to form a story spontaneously is not that different from the writers room. Managing that by throwing the spotlight, “yes, and”, asking questions… being a showrunner in the room is a lot like being a DM.

Note that you get a closer quote regarding The Librarians.


Basically, spend as much time on party building as you do character building. I ruthlessly steal a lot of the “relationship map” mechanics from other games, like the Cortex System. We actually used a version to design the character relationships on The Librarians.

a Leverage based game sounds like fun. If your players are familiar with the show however, be aware that there were a lot of shortcuts they didn't show that would need to be played out.

Most common: To steal X from Company Y, they have someone working as a guard/receptionist/IT person, etc. However, they often didn't show HOW they got that person into place. Presumably hacking, etc., but there's actually a LOT of steps of any given plan you never see enacted.

daniel_ream
2017-08-20, 01:49 PM
I wonder if they are thinking of this interview (http://geekandsundry.com/how-managing-a-tv-show-is-like-running-a-dungeon/)...

That sounds a lot more like storygaming techniques, which are themselves taken from screenwriting. That I'll believe. It was the "based on D&D" part I found disingenuous. And that headline is complete clickbait.


a Leverage based game sounds like fun. If your players are familiar with the show however, be aware that there were a lot of shortcuts they didn't show that would need to be played out.

Most common: To steal X from Company Y, they have someone working as a guard/receptionist/IT person, etc. However, they often didn't show HOW they got that person into place. Presumably hacking, etc., but there's actually a LOT of steps of any given plan you never see enacted.

No, that's reflected in the game design. You can spend Plot Points to narrate a flashback that explains why you have the thing you need right now, and you get a bonus on the roll. It's essentially he same as the Planning Dice mechanic mentioned upthread.

tomandtish
2017-08-20, 01:52 PM
No, that's reflected in the game design. You can spend Plot Points to narrate a flashback that explains why you have the thing you need right now, and you get a bonus on the roll. It's essentially he same as the Planning Dice mechanic mentioned upthread.

Ahh, if the Leverage game itself covers that, then cool. I was referring to the concept as a whole, since it was something often skipped over in the show.

shadowkat678
2017-08-27, 03:14 PM
My main issue is I don't think I could run a game with only having a PDF copy. The only reason I was really reading the 3.5 handbook is because I saw it online for sale by a bookstore for under $10 before tax. In almost new condition.

Come on. Considering amazon has it $40+, and most used ones aren't in that good a condition, I was NOT going to pass it up if it looked good enough to buy it. Also, just came in. Wasn't lying about the Almost Like New part.

I've been looking for cheap solid copies of some of these other RPGs, but I still can't find them, and I just can't focus on pdf copies. I need something in my hands if I'm going to have to look things up and such. The Leverage thing is sounding really cool, but I still can't find the book for less than $35-$40.

FreddyNoNose
2017-08-29, 02:40 PM
I really don't think you're grasping what I'm saying. Since you're clearly gotten over your aversion to PDFs and looking at other rules sets, I strongly recommend you look at Leverage and Blades in the Dark for an example of how to handle heists in an RPG, and Fate for a more general look at how to model challenges with something representable by mechanics (I'm talking about the Fate fractal, but you may have to dig up Worlds on Fire for a good example of it in use).

As just one example of what I'm talking about: suppose one of your thieves manages to abscond with the Duchess' diamond necklace and nearly makes it over the estate's wall but for the scullery maid raising a hue and cry at the last minute. The guards spot the thief, halloo and give chase.

What now?

In 3.5, you're kind of stymied, because there's no rules for this. The thief probably has a slightly higher movement rate due to encumbrance limits and so on, so he always gets away. Always. At best, you make a single opposed Dexterity check and that's the chase over and done.

By comparison, 5E has quite a nice little chase system that gives the players something to interact with and produces some nice results in the fiction, and lots of advice on how to extend the system for different types of chases.

Do you see my point? Different games have different rules to cover different kinds of situations. Some games have no rules whatsoever for certain situations; some games have generic resolution rules that try to handle any and every situation; some games have very detailed rules for every possible situation that could ever come up in the setting (I'm looking at you, Harn).

Now, I have no doubt someone is going to say that the GM can always make up some chase (or whatever) rules, or else the GM can just decide what happens. Of course the GM can. That's Rule Zero and it's true for every single RPG. But at some point, Rule Zeroing everything that comes up in the fiction because the game has no rules for it means you're making your own game, not playing an existing one with house rules.

Why not start with a game, or at least a set of mechanics, that's pretty close to what you want anyway? And exactly what harm is there in at least looking at the way other games have handled this same campaign frame?

At least Harn has nice maps!