Converting the ToB classes into PoW archetypes

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Got a couple of people who adore the original three anime fightin' classes even after playing the newer DSP-brand models, so of course my tinkering brain started mulling over how to adapt them.

The Warblade is easy, since it was practically a Fighter fix: it's now a Fighter archetype that loses the first bonus feat, Bravery, and Armor Training and gains Weapon Aptitude at 1, Uncanny Dodge/IUD at 2/6, and those "Battle ___" features as selectable Blade Skills at 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19.
I'm on the fence about it granting martial maneuvers since it stacks with Myrmidon no problem and is just a good Int-based Fighter on its own as well.

The Crusader and Swordsage on the other hand are a bit tougher to nail down.
Crusader, I could see going to Zealot, Samurai, Paladin, or even Barbarian with a bit of reflavoring.
Swordsage has popularly been tied to Monk thanks to Unarmed Swordsage, but that was just one of the examples given so idk about taking the obvious route when something like Ninja, Oracle, Gunslinger/Swashbuckler, or Samurai (again) doesn't have a martial archetype at all yet and would work too.

So I'm looking for critique of Warblade and also opinions and advise on the other two before I post them to Homebrew and allow them in my games!

[ChrisAsmadi]

You can approximate the Crusader pretty well already with either an Ordained Defender Warder (for the divine guardian aspect), a Warpath Follower or Knight Disciple Paladin (various flavours of a more divine warrior focus) or the Zealot (for the damage tanking leader-esque aspect).

Stalkers can approximate a Swordsage pretty well (except maybe an Unarmed one, you might have to go Steelfist Commando Warlord or Aurora Soul Mystic for that).

[Dr_Dinosaur]

You can approximate the Crusader pretty well already with either an Ordained Defender Warder (for the divine guardian aspect), a Warpath Follower or Knight Disciple Paladin (various flavours of a more divine warrior focus) or the Zealot (for the damage tanking leader-esque aspect).

Stalkers can approximate a Swordsage pretty well (except maybe an Unarmed one, you might have to go Steelfist Commando Warlord or Aurora Soul Mystic for that).
Sure, but it's the specific mechanics they like, like the Crusader's damage delaying Steely Resolve and the Swordsage's Discipline Focus. Plus they're good templates for archetypes to give classes initiating that don't have it yet.

[Krazzman]

Got a couple of people who adore the original three anime fightin' classes even after playing the newer DSP-brand models, so of course my tinkering brain started mulling over how to adapt them.

You mean Warlock, Dragonfire Adept and Dragon Disciples? :smalltongue:


The Warblade is easy, since it was practically a Fighter fix: it's now a Fighter archetype that loses the first bonus feat, Bravery, and Armor Training and gains Weapon Aptitude at 1, Uncanny Dodge/IUS at 2/6, and those "Battle ___" features as selectable Blade Skills at 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19.
I'm on the fence about it granting martial maneuvers since it stacks with Myrmidon no problem and is just a good Int-based Fighter on its own as well.

Why Improved Unarmed Strike though? I would make a change so it doesn't stack with the Archetype you think it is problematic with.


The Crusader and Swordsage on the other hand are a bit tougher to nail down.
Crusader, I could see going to Zealot, Samurai, Paladin, or even Barbarian with a bit of reflavoring.
Swordsage has popularly been tied to Monk thanks to Unarmed Swordsage, but that was just one of the examples given so idk about taking the obvious route when something like Ninja, Oracle, Gunslinger/Swashbuckler, or Samurai (again) doesn't have a martial archetype at all yet and would work too.

So I'm looking for critique of Warblade and also opinions and advise on the other two before I post them to Homebrew and allow them in my games!

Since it's about other mechanics, how about a Warpriest Archetype giving up Blessings and casting for Maneuvers and Steely Resolve type stuff (might take a look at Kineticist in the process...?).

Afaik the swordsage could work as a Rogue Archetype (maybe Ninja) or maybe even a Slayer Archetype... Even Magus/Mesmerist can work as a good base.

[Elricaltovilla]

Honestly, you'd have an easier time just porting the three ToB classes over mostly as is. Fix their skill lists, open up their discipline choices to account for the new disciplines, match their maneuver progression to the PoW:E classes, and give them slightly better maneuver recovery and they're fine. Trying to convert them into archetypes is way more work, you really only need to fiddle with a few numbers here and there.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Honestly, you'd have an easier time just porting the three ToB classes over mostly as is. Fix their skill lists, open up their discipline choices to account for the new disciplines, match their maneuver progression to the PoW:E classes, and give them slightly better maneuver recovery and they're fine. Trying to convert them into archetypes is way more work, you really only need to fiddle with a few numbers here and there.

They have no built-in recovery ability (Defensive Focus et al) and are otherwise severely lacking in the class features department. Plugging the few they have into an existing class is way easier than basically inventing a class from whole cloth.


You mean Warlock, Dragonfire Adept and Dragon Disciples? :smalltongue:

Haha, I'm considering ways of adapting those as well, probably Warlock as a Witch/??? Hybrid class and combining the two Dragon classes.


Why Improved Unarmed Strike though? I would make a change so it doesn't stack with the Archetype you think it is problematic with.

I'm not sure what you mean about Improved Unarmed Strike. Did you mean Improved Uncanny Dodge? And I don't think it's problematic with Myrmidon, I just think it's fine not granting maneuvers since they stack and it doesn't have to give up more features for it.



Since it's about other mechanics, how about a Warpriest Archetype giving up Blessings and casting for Maneuvers and Steely Resolve type stuff (might take a look at Kineticist in the process...?). Afaik the swordsage could work as a Rogue Archetype (maybe Ninja) or maybe even a Slayer Archetype... Even Magus/Mesmerist can work as a good base.

That's an interesting idea, hadn't considered the Warpriest but it synergizes well with Fervor both mechanically and flavorfully. Maybe Magus or Samurai for Swordsage?

[Krazzman]

Haha, I'm considering ways of adapting those as well, probably Warlock as a Witch/??? Hybrid class and combining the two Dragon classes.

Warlock would probably better fit as a Kineticist Archetype with some form of Custom "Pact" Element or something like that (makes it easier).


I'm not sure what you mean about Improved Unarmed Strike. Did you mean Improved Uncanny Dodge? And I don't think it's problematic with Myrmidon, I just think it's fine not granting maneuvers since they stack and it doesn't have to give up more features for it.

Ah, I thought you meant Uncanny Dodge OR Improved Unarmed Strike (since you wrote IUS). Since I don't have access to PoW I wasn't sure about it but got the feeling that you were trying to work out if Myrmidon should be an either/or kind of deal with your Archetype.

That's an interesting idea, hadn't considered the Warpriest but it synergizes well with Fervor both mechanically and flavorfully. Maybe Magus or Samurai for Swordsage?

Samurai... not likely, Swashbuckler might fit better from the start, as Samurai as a Cavalier Archetype are already focused on Mounted Stuff and Challenges.

[Elricaltovilla]

They have no built-in recovery ability (Defensive Focus et al) and are otherwise severely lacking in the class features department. Plugging the few they have into an existing class is way easier than basically inventing a class from whole cloth.


Not true. The Crusader uses the random recovery mechanic like the mystic and warpath follower. The Warblade recovers by full or standard attacking and spending a swift action. The swordsage is the only one with an unusable recovery mechanic, and for that you have a variety of options that you could steal from: the Stalker, the Monk of the Silver Fist, the Knight Disciple Paladin or the Myrmidon Fighter are all potentially thematic options if you don't want to make your own.

Outside of that they each only have a couple dead levels that can be filled by the generic "bonus feat you meet prerequisites for" and then you just need to adapt their skill lists. There is an older thread that you can probably find by googling that already does that for you and offers alternative Discipline skills for the ToB disciplines.

It's a lot less work than you think, trust me.

[Kitsuneymg]

Warlock would probably better fit as a Kineticist Archetype with some form of Custom "Pact" Element or something like that (makes it easier).


Oh god no. If you want a PF warlock, look for the Avowed play test (3pp, on these boards) or go find Spheres of Power (also 3pp, on pfd20srd and its own wikidot). Both are going to give you a much better experience than Kineticist. The avowed is essentially a PF rewrite of the Warlock.

[Krazzman]

Oh god no. If you want a PF warlock, look for the Avowed play test (3pp, on these boards) or go find Spheres of Power (also 3pp, on pfd20srd and its own wikidot). Both are going to give you a much better experience than Kineticist. The avowed is essentially a PF rewrite of the Warlock.

If OP wants to make a Warlock Archetype the best fit is Kineticist as it is Paizos Energy Blaster Class with some utility sprinkled in. The same is true for his Crusader and Swordsage adaptions. There already is access to PoW. There might be an easy direct to play analogue, but he wants to build an archetype for it.

Having an Archetype that reworks Burn and focuses on one Element or changes the Elemental Focus to Pacts with (Fairies, Demons, Devils) can go a long way to make it good and will be easier.

[Florian]

I think that the old warlock really doesn´t fit in with the overall PF class design paradigm anymore.
Personally, I´d make it a custom archetype for the Medium class, channeling various aspects of the pact (ex: Hellfire Aspect (Blasting), Dark Knowledge (Casting), The Chain (Summoning), and so on)