Epic Lich Wizard looking down on gods?

[Sordahon]

I read a fanfiction of D&D x Harry Potter and MC there was student( 9th tier wizard using spell points) of epic wizard lich who created multiple planes using genesis, could make himself look alive and was arrogant enough to look down on gods, his quote : "Look at this my student! This world I created! One among many others, and I am sole ruler of them, nothing is permitted to be here without my permission.", "Gods? These fools just got lucky, I earned my power! And I dare a god to say it to my face that they are better than me!" Something like that, do you think this is arrogance or confidence? Could a epic wizard lich act that way and unlive?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Statements like that are bravado, at best. Such a creature would definitely be (secretly) worshiping a deity strong enough to deter other deities from taking action against him.

In 3.5, I don't think he could stop a deity from finding his phylactery if the deity really really tried, unless he had another god like Vecna helping him conceal it.

A Cleric with the Sun domain, or especially a Radiant Servant, with the right Turn Undead optimization items and feats, could automatically destroy the lich with a standard action. I'm sure Pelor himself could do the same. While there are spells that can protect it from positive energy, they're just a Disjunction away from being gone.

He wouldn't be able to keep any gods out of his demiplanes, or any other powerful beings for that matter. While Plane Shift requires a special key as a focus, and requires the correct key for that plane, Gate doesn't have any such limitations. Anything with divine rank could just show up on his demiplane, use Alter Reality to make the whole thing a dead magic area (which deities aren't limited by), and then leave the lich trapped there forever, powerless.

Statements like that are bravado, at best. Such a creature would definitely be (secretly) worshiping a deity strong enough to deter other deities from taking action against him.

[Nifft]

I read a fanfiction of D&D x Harry Potter and MC there was student( 9th tier wizard using spell points) of epic wizard lich who created multiple planes using genesis, could make himself look alive and was arrogant enough to look down on gods, his quote : "Look at this my student! This world I created! One among many others, and I am sole ruler of them, nothing is permitted to be here without my permission.", "Gods? These fools just got lucky, I earned my power! And I dare a god to say it to my face that they are better than me!" Something like that, do you think this is arrogance or confidence? Could a epic wizard lich act that way and unlive?

Depends on the setting.

In Greyhawk, you've got at least one lich who ascended to become a god by his own efforts -- Vecna. The gods allow a lot of evil to go by, and aren't particularly troubled by braggarts. Now, if you started slaughtering every priest in the Theocracy of the Pale, you might get a bit of a response... but just words probably won't provoke much. Making your own demi-planes is certainly not going to annoy anyone.

In Eberron, you've got a whole religion based around undead champions overcoming the gods for the (eventual) benefit of mortals -- the Blood of Vol. Your lich would fit right in, and his opinions would find support within that faction.

In the Forgotten Realms, the gods are alternately overpowering or disposable, so just do whatever you want.

In Athas, the gods are silent, and the liches are quite convincingly winning.

In Ravenloft, the gods are jerks, and so are the liches.


In one of my favorite homebrew settings, the gods would emphatically not care about demi-planes -- each pantheon of gods was limited to one planet, so stuff you do off-world is inherently beyond their purview.

(Of course, in that setting you might have more fun conquering or terraforming a different planet instead of making pocket-sized demi-planes, and that could get someone's attention.)

[Crake]

Statements like that are bravado, at best. Such a creature would definitely be (secretly) worshiping a deity strong enough to deter other deities from taking action against him.

In 3.5, I don't think he could stop a deity from finding his phylactery if the deity really really tried, unless he had another god like Vecna helping him conceal it.

A Cleric with the Sun domain, or especially a Radiant Servant, with the right Turn Undead optimization items and feats, could automatically destroy the lich with a standard action. I'm sure Pelor himself could do the same. While there are spells that can protect it from positive energy, they're just a Disjunction away from being gone.

He wouldn't be able to keep any gods out of his demiplanes, or any other powerful beings for that matter. While Plane Shift requires a special key as a focus, and requires the correct key for that plane, Gate doesn't have any such limitations. Anything with divine rank could just show up on his demiplane, use Alter Reality to make the whole thing a dead magic area (which deities aren't limited by), and then leave the lich trapped there forever, powerless.

Statements like that are bravado, at best. Such a creature would definitely be (secretly) worshiping a deity strong enough to deter other deities from taking action against him.

Or to put it another way, the gods can say in all truth to the lich "Anything you can do, I can do better".

This is why I eliminated gods from my campaign setting. They're either boringly absent, with an apathetic view toward the world, or they're omnipresently active and make any large enough scale event filled with plot holes as to "if the world was coming to an end, why didn't the gods do anything". And if the answer is "they couldn't do anything" then the question becomes "why could the players do anything then?". Far easier to just eleminate them all and replace them with weaker, more fallible beings like celestial paragons, archfiends, fey queens and dragon lords.

[The_Iron_Lord]

In my mind, I keep accidentally reading "Epic Lich Wizard" as "Epic Witch Lizard"...

[shaikujin]

In the Dragonlance setting, the gods may be a bit more petty. They have been known to drop a mountain to flatten a the city of Istar when the Kingpriest (a Lawful Good cleric) became overly arrogant.


Btw, which fan fic is this? It's not the Planar Professor, right?

[Sordahon]

In the Dragonlance setting, the gods may be a bit more petty. They have been known to drop a mountain to flatten a the city of Istar when the Kingpriest (a Lawful Good cleric) became overly arrogant.


Btw, which fan fic is this? It's not the Planar Professor, right?
It is. The Lich is Shroud.

[shaikujin]

It is. The Lich is Shroud.

Ah, I forgot who Shroud was and had to re-read that part where Ira went looking for his old teacher :)

Looks like Ira came from a setting where the gods/deities are not as petty as the ones in Dragonlance.

Either that, or Shroud's outbursts through the years didn't trigger their portfolio sense.

[RoboEmperor]

Or to put it another way, the gods can say in all truth to the lich "Anything you can do, I can do better".

This is why I eliminated gods from my campaign setting. They're either boringly absent, with an apathetic view toward the world, or they're omnipresently active and make any large enough scale event filled with plot holes as to "if the world was coming to an end, why didn't the gods do anything". And if the answer is "they couldn't do anything" then the question becomes "why could the players do anything then?". Far easier to just eleminate them all and replace them with weaker, more fallible beings like celestial paragons, archfiends, fey queens and dragon lords.

You are their instrument of justice. The Gods are working through you.

[ShurikVch]

In Greyhawk, you've got at least one lich who ascended to become a god by his own efforts -- Vecna. I don't remember where I read it, but Acererak The Devourer - who apprenticed with Vecna - vocally disapproved his former teacher's decision to ascend to godhood; he pointed deities are nothing without their worshippers; thus every deity have a massive weak spot, and just one [epic] spell away from total oblivion

[Pugwampy]

In my mind, I keep accidentally reading "Epic Lich Wizard" as "Epic Witch Lizard"...

That is priceless.

Kay now i refuse die happy till i have made an encounter involving a Lich wizard and Witch lizard.

[flappeercraft]

In my mind, I keep accidentally reading "Epic Lich Wizard" as "Epic Witch Lizard"...

may I sig this?

[White Blade]

Most gods in 3.5 have 20 Outsider HD (Rogue skills, Full BAB, good saves)/20 Class A/20 Class B, immune to almost everything, low stats in the mid twenties, and also have Alter Reality, an ability that is effectively Greater Wish at will as a standard reaction. Many gods are ascended, having started off as mortals.

That said, most gods are relatively tolerant of mortal presumption if only because of the fact that there are too many mortals to care. Said Lich is not, in fact, in anyway their rival. They are as distant in power as a petty knight and the Holy Roman Emperor and probably equally distant in wisdom, knowledge, experience, and perspective. Excepting Pun-Pun, there's just no build that can do what a few divine ranks can.

[ngilop]

This entire thing seems to me, just a inbalance of allowed stuff on different parties.


If a once mortal wizard can do something like what the OP stated, you have to be actively stopping any and all deities from the same kind of power tier/abuse.

Because if a mortal wizard becomes a lich and blarghly blarghs you at some point have to have said 'well the deity of magic is just gonna chillax and never do anything, or the deity of 'not letting dumb mortals start doing boasts and stuff' just kinda sleep on the job.

[Drakevarg]

This entire thing seems to me, just a inbalance of allowed stuff on different parties.


If a once mortal wizard can do something like what the OP stated, you have to be actively stopping any and all deities from the same kind of power tier/abuse.

Because if a mortal wizard becomes a lich and blarghly blarghs you at some point have to have said 'well the deity of magic is just gonna chillax and never do anything, or the deity of 'not letting dumb mortals start doing boasts and stuff' just kinda sleep on the job.

That's kind of standard in arguments where the core thesis is that wizards are basically all powerful and the PCs can get away with anything; it almost invariably works from the assumption that all NPCs will blindly function at the low-op levels depicted in sample content, instead of abusing their potential to an equal or greater extent than the PC.

Hence why there's also the frequent cautionary message: "Do not get into an arms race with the DM."

[ShurikVch]

Most gods in 3.5 have 20 Outsider HD (Rogue skills, Full BAB, good saves)Most, but not all.
For example - Bahamut, Tiamat, Vecna, Imhotep, and Bane are don't have it


and also have Alter Reality, an ability that is effectively Greater Wish at willExcept not every deity have it


Said Lich is not, in fact, in anyway their rival. They are as distant in power as a petty knight and the Holy Roman EmperorMurdered Roman emperors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Murdered_Roman_emperors) :nale:


and probably equally distant in wisdom, knowledge, experience, and perspective.The "experience" is just XP, and most of PC Epic Wizards (on equal level) are have better Int than Mystra - even without cheese (:smallamused: like there is such thing as "[epic] without cheese")


Excepting Pun-Pun, there's just no build that can do what a few divine ranks can.Fun fact: caster of 17+ level can Gate in Zargon the Returner, and Zargon is eating gods for breakfast...

[Drakevarg]

Fun fact: caster of 17+ level can Gate in Zargon the Returner, and Zargon is eating gods for breakfast...

Yet another of all-powerful wizardry that hinges on NPC forces politely sitting on their thumbs and making no attempt to counter your efforts even when it's clearly within their ability and interest to do so.

[ShurikVch]

Yet another of all-powerful wizardry that hinges on NPC forces politely sitting on their thumbs and making no attempt to counter your efforts even when it's clearly within their ability and interest to do so.It will be very interesting to know, how the heck they may "counter your efforts"? :smallconfused:

[Drakevarg]

It will be very interesting to know, how the heck they may "counter your efforts"? :smallconfused:

Well, high-ranking deities know about every event that pertains to their portfolio, weeks in advance. They also have spells out the wazoo. So they are 100% capable of scry-and-dying you with more efficiency than you can. So if say, Boccob decides he doesn't like the idea of you using a god-killing abomination as an attack dog, he has all the time in the world to cast a few thousand contingencies to make sure that you get hit by every save-or-die spell in the book the second you so much as prepare gate in the morning.

[PotatoPulverize]

Yes yes, the little ant crowned himself god of his ant hill, why should anyone care?

A mad lich denouncing all gods? Not like it's new, nor does it hurt the gods in anyway what so ever, why waste resources dealing with something that have no effect on them when there are rivals and competition to deal with and clergy / divine realm to manage.

If the god's power are associated with number and well-being of his followers, every bit of resource wasted on this crazy lich, that's resource not used to make more followers or preventing rivals converting. Gods, immortal as they are, probably are more concerned with long term goals than the satisfaction of proving a random skeleton wrong.

Now if the lich is causing a ruckus in front of a church targeting a particular god, then they'll have a problem.

[Calthropstu]

It will be very interesting to know, how the heck they may "counter your efforts"? :smallconfused:

All spells looking for the coordinates of certain trapped creatures will automatically fail. In Pathfinder, Gate CANNOT summon forth Rovagug for example. In Forgotten Realms, Mystra passively watches all magic cast. At any point she can simply say "No."

[ShurikVch]

Well, high-ranking deities know about every event that pertains to their portfolio, weeks in advance.Firstly,
When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the eventSecondly - step to Far Realm remove you from the time: "week in advance" - what is "week"?
And thirdly - who, exactly, said anything about the "portfolio"?
Zargon gonna eat gods, not portfolios
Gods may die (and, occasionally, do), but their portfolios are just fine
Simple example: if you gonna genocide every single elf in the setting, Corellon Larethian gonna know at advance
But if you just gonna go and kill Corellon Larethian? Not so much! (Because such thing already happened, and the Ruler of All Elves was completely blindsided)

They also have spells out the wazoo. So they are 100% capable of scry-and-dying you with more efficiency than you can. So if say, Boccob decides he doesn't like the idea of you using a god-killing abomination as an attack dog, he has all the time in the world to cast a few thousand contingencies to make sure that you get hit by every save-or-die spell in the book the second you so much as prepare gate in the morning.Contingent Gate (Zargon), keyed on your death :smallcool:



All spells looking for the coordinates of certain trapped creatures will automatically fail. In Pathfinder, Gate CANNOT summon forth Rovagug for example.What's up, somebody adapted Elder Evils for Pathfinder?

In Forgotten Realms, Mystra passively watches all magic cast. At any point she can simply say "No."Mystra says "No," Shar says "Yes!" :smallbiggrin:

[Drakevarg]

Firstly

So? It still gets a general idea that it's occurring. And it's not like just a context-free buzz. Their own example was that a sea god was aware of waves that might endanger villages - not what it looked like or what direction it was going, but at least that it was happening. They know these dangerous waves as distinct from just, say, every single wave in any body of water in existence.


Secondly - step to Far Realm remove you from the time: "week in advance" - what is "week"?

You've got me there - Boccob wouldn't be able to sense events in the Far Realm, because they occur "before and after" time, i.e. outside his temporal range. But he would sense you casting plane shift (or any other magical means of getting there), and if he had any reason to consider you an issue (which as a high-level wizard it'd only be sensible) he could easily scry when suddenly you dropped off the map.


And thirdly - who, exactly, said anything about the "portfolio"?
Zargon gonna eat gods, not portfolios
Gods may die (and, occasionally, do), but their portfolios are just fine
Simple example: if you gonna genocide every single elf in the setting, Corellon Larethian gonna know at advance

Boccob's portfolio is magic. He is aware of all magic use period.


Contingent Gate (Zargon), keyed on your death :smallcool:

Boccob foresaw that cast too, and could plan accordingly. And on top of all his ridiculous god powers, he's still an epic level Wizard. Anything you can do, he can do better.

[White Blade]

It will be very interesting to know, how the heck they may "counter your efforts"? :smallconfused:

Alter Reality? Is there some way that some banal, Wizard 20 can beat Alter Reality + a billion years worth of free time?

How does someone beat a Outsider 20 Divine Rank 1 God with Alter Reality and Blindsense and, say, Liberation, War, and Good as domains?

Edit: Step One - Mage's Disjunction! Step Two - Pummel You With Whatever Spell Catches Our Fancy!

[Zanos]

In Forgotten Realms, Mystra passively watches all magic cast. At any point she can simply say "No."
Yeah, that's why her chosen and faithful are routinely killed with non-Shadow Weave arcane magic, why her chosen's greatest opponents are frequently Weave wielders, and why she was felled twice directly through use of weave magic.

Mystra cannot selectively provide magic. Ao will show up and demote her and make someone else god of magic that's actually interested in doing their job. In this case, probably the caster of the god-killing epic spell.

Faerunian deities exist to promote and protect their portfolios and have actual responsibilities. They can't stop doing their job whenever it's convenient to their other interests.


Well, high-ranking deities know about every event that pertains to their portfolio, weeks in advance. They also have spells out the wazoo. So they are 100% capable of scry-and-dying you with more efficiency than you can. So if say, Boccob decides he doesn't like the idea of you using a god-killing abomination as an attack dog, he has all the time in the world to cast a few thousand contingencies to make sure that you get hit by every save-or-die spell in the book the second you so much as prepare gate in the morning.
A setting where deities can instantly slay anyone they care to that threatens their interests is a setting that people don't play in. I guess high level characters just sit on their hands all the time because if they dare offend a deities clerics they'll be instantly obliterated.

[Drakevarg]

A setting where deities can instantly slay anyone they care to that threatens their interests is a setting that people don't play in. I guess high level characters just sit on their hands all the time because if they dare offend a deities clerics they'll be instantly obliterated.

Most people don't try playing Tippyverse-tier Batman mages in actual campaigns either. Like I said earlier, "don't get into an arms race with the DM." There's something of a gentleman's agreement that the players don't try to break the setting over their knees and in turn the DM doesn't drop the infinite resources of the cosmos on their heads.

[Zanos]

Most people don't try playing Tippyverse-tier Batman mages in actual campaigns either. Like I said earlier, "don't get into an arms race with the DM." There's something of a gentleman's agreement that the players don't try to break the setting over their knees and in turn the DM doesn't drop the infinite resources of the cosmos on their heads.
You can literally just say "no" without contorting your entire setting to be stupidly inconsistent and broken. If you want to law down the law as a DM then actually do that instead of hiding behind some weak in-setting justification.

[Drakevarg]

You can literally just say "no" without contorting your entire setting to be stupidly inconsistent and broken. If you want to law down the law as a DM then actually do that instead of hiding behind some weak in-setting justification.

Personally, I would. I'm merely noting that in a hypothetical scenario where a player actually got away with crazy shenanigans and found themselves at cross purposes with a deity who wasn't lobotomized for said player's benefit, the deity would have the upper hand on account of being able to do all the nonsense the player can, plus god powers.

[White Blade]

Firstly,Secondly - step to Far Realm remove you from the time: "week in advance" - what is "week"?
And thirdly - who, exactly, said anything about the "portfolio"?
Zargon gonna eat gods, not portfolios
Gods may die (and, occasionally, do), but their portfolios are just fine
Simple example: if you gonna genocide every single elf in the setting, Corellon Larethian gonna know at advance
But if you just gonna go and kill Corellon Larethian? Not so much! (Because such thing already happened, and the Ruler of All Elves was completely blindsided)
Contingent Gate (Zargon), keyed on your death :smallcool:


What's up, somebody adapted Elder Evils for Pathfinder?
Mystra says "No," Shar says "Yes!" :smallbiggrin:

Zargon is total trash as statted. How the gods lost to him is so far beyond me. They could have just summoned the archangels from Celestial to handle him at the absolute most. You can't contingent spell gate, it's too high level. The gods can contingent spell celerity ("Anybody tries to attack me") and then time stop their way around all obstacles (re-up such a contingency before resuming time.). Of course, they'll Mage's disjunction you as a precaution before they gank you.

An epic level caster has a limited number of spells per day. All non-demigod deities do not. If you, the player, want to attack the gods, there are stats but you will lose. They are certainly not intended to be fought. That's not clever planning, that's fact. Given ONE time stop, a God could create three Ice Assasins of you and teleport away on an average-good roll. These are beings of supernal intelligence and power, with millennia of experience, if they could be killed in a summary fashion or even compared reasonably to mortal wizards, they would not be called gods.

People always whine about the gods just being sufficiently powerful outsiders, but in D&D the distance to "sufficiently powerful" is omnipotent.

[ngilop]

Murdered Roman emperors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Murdered_Roman_emperors) :nale:


My favorite post of his is this one and this particular link to be specific.

Whiteblade stated Holy roman emperors and you linked to murdered roman emperors.

SO, basically you are wrong and you attempt to be even more of a snarky donkey-face managed to fail miserably and highlight the fact that you are most likely a jerk who has some kind of a need to be 'right' even though whatever it is you are spouting is dumb, so very very dumb.

[flappeercraft]

You can't contingent spell gate, it's too high level.

1. Craft Contingent
2. Reserves of Strength + Contingency
3. Custom Epic Spells

[Calthropstu]

Yeah, that's why her chosen and faithful are routinely killed with non-Shadow Weave arcane magic, why her chosen's greatest opponents are frequently Weave wielders, and why she was felled twice directly through use of weave magic.

Mystra cannot selectively provide magic. Ao will show up and demote her and make someone else god of magic that's actually interested in doing their job. In this case, probably the caster of the god-killing epic spell.

Faerunian deities exist to promote and protect their portfolios and have actual responsibilities. They can't stop doing their job whenever it's convenient to their other interests.


A setting where deities can instantly slay anyone they care to that threatens their interests is a setting that people don't play in. I guess high level characters just sit on their hands all the time because if they dare offend a deities clerics they'll be instantly obliterated.
It's not that she cannot, it's that she refuses to. However, she HAS stepped in and said no in the past... shutting down free and open access to 10th level spells.
So yeah, she CAN step in if someone tries to use magic to do something that truly threatened everything. Even Shar might say no to gating god eating monsters into existence... her being a target after all.

[Zanos]

Free and open access to 10th level spells was removed because a new incarnation of Mystra created a new Weave, not because she stepped in. If she had stepped in there wouldn't have been a new incarnation to begin with.

You're right that Mystra can, technically, block spells from being cast. It's just that's literally the opposite of her job, and Ao has actually threatened to remove her for doing it. She tried putting up barriers for Evil arcane casters, and Ao stepped in.

[Calthropstu]

Free and open access to 10th level spells was removed because a new incarnation of Mystra created a new Weave, not because she stepped in. If she had stepped in there wouldn't have been a new incarnation to begin with.

You're right that Mystra can, technically, block spells from being cast. It's just that's literally the opposite of her job, and Ao has actually threatened to remove her for doing it. She tried putting up barriers for Evil arcane casters, and Ao stepped in.

Trying to thwart evil spellcasters in general is one thing, preventing the destruction of the cosmos is another altogether. It's the difference between "No, I won't let you use magic to wage war on each other and slaughter villiages" and "No, I won't let you obliterate existence."
One is interfering with free will and attempting to impose your will on mortals. The other is preventing interdimensional catastrophe.

[Doorhandle]

In my mind, I keep accidentally reading "Epic Lich Wizard" as "Epic Witch Lizard"...

That basically sums up a lot of dragons.