Making new character for v. short campaign

[Jarob22]

Hi all,

I'm looking to make a character that fits the "rogue" element of the party, and I was looking at beguiler as a possible option. We're going to be playing a very short campaign, probably only getting to level 2 or 3, so big focus on lower levels. I'd love suggestions about if beguiler really is a good choice for a low level short campaign, what sort of feats would be best to pick and how I should really look at playing beguiler (if it's a viable option), barring just Color Spray All The Things.

Obviously to fit the "rogue" element, all I really need is good skills to lockpick/search for traps/sneak, so really I could play any character that pairs well with a good int stat and doesn't need to be a front rank fighter.

Cheers!

[Khedrac]

Beguiler fits very well because they are an int-primary caster so the 2 skill points they lose for not being a rogue they may gain back from a higher Intelligence.

Color Spraying everything is a very good options - so think about takiing Spell Focus: Illusion as your first feat. A big problem with it is that with its 15' range it gets you a lot closer to melee whan you want to be, but since it can end the fight in one cast, quite a good feat is Improved Initiative to enhance your chance of going first.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Beguilers get plenty of skills (possibly the most of any base class), plenty of spell slots, and plenty of spells known. Color Spray, Sleep, Charm Person, Silent Image, Obscuring Mist... You even get shortbow proficiency for slightly better plinking.

Feat-wise, you want Shadow Weave Magic, which gives you +1 DC to both illusion AND enchantment spells. Though Spell Focus (Enchantment) does let you get Unsettling Enchantment which adds a nice low-level debuff when targets pass their save against an enchantment. Versatile Spellcaster ought to let you cast second level spells, which is hard to argue with. And Obtain Familiar is always great, especially with your skills.

[Jarob22]

Versatile Spellcaster ought to let you cast second level spells, which is hard to argue with.

Eh? Nowhere in the feat does it say it lets you cast spells you don't already have access to. In fact, it specifically says you can't:

Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

[Jarob22]

Another thing I'd like to address is the fact that this class is not at all meant to go into melee, yet trying to make a low level ranged character is just pointless. I'd need to spend both my starting feats on PBS and PS and then I have none left to actually enhance my real reason for being there: my spells. How on earth can I address this?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Eh? Nowhere in the feat does it say it lets you cast spells you don't already have access to. In fact, it specifically says you can't:

Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.
The keyword is "spell you know." Beguilers know all the spells of a given level as soon as they get access to it... such as via a feat that lets them spend two 1st level spell slots to cast a 2nd.


Another thing I'd like to address is the fact that this class is not at all meant to go into melee, yet trying to make a low level ranged character is just pointless. I'd need to spend both my starting feats on PBS and PS and then I have none left to actually enhance my real reason for being there: my spells. How on earth can I address this?
Oh, I don't recommend spending feats on archery, just noting that you're slightly better at it than, say, a Sorcerer when you're conserving spell slots.

If you want to be a low-level archer with a different class, it's still rough. You really need three feats to do a credible job, meaning Human, Fighter (or some other bonus-feat granting class), or some combination thereof is basically necessary.

[Jarob22]

The keyword is "spell you know." Beguilers know all the spells of a given level as soon as they get access to it... such as via a feat that lets them spend two 1st level spell slots to cast a 2nd.


Oh, I don't recommend spending feats on archery, just noting that you're slightly better at it than, say, a Sorcerer when you're conserving spell slots.

If you want to be a low-level archer with a different class, it's still rough. You really need three feats to do a credible job, meaning Human, Fighter (or some other bonus-feat granting class), or some combination thereof is basically necessary.

I'm really not sure the GM would go for this, and I don't feel like trying to make him come around, since it's gonna be a very short campaign.

What do you recommend my gameplan is then? Do I just cast colour spray then defer endlessly with no attack? I really don't want to have to wear a load of armor that increases my arcane spell penalty and have to focus on Concentration, that seems counter productive, surely? Or maybe I'm totally wrong. Please enlighten me, I'm still a noob to most of this. :)

[Khedrac]

My beguiler used a hand crossbow a bit at low levels. Yes, he wasn't great with it, but so long as he wasn't firing into melee his Dex meant he hit quite often. Any first level arcane caster is useless in combat when not casting their spells, just some are more useless than others.
Also, if you are not contributing to the combat the opponenets may not see you as a threat worth attacking - at this point going in to make aid attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#aidAnother) can be useful.

[Jarob22]

Hm, ok. I could definitely try to go for people not in melee, or aid.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm really not sure the GM would go for this, and I don't feel like trying to make him come around, since it's gonna be a very short campaign.
Fair enough.


What do you recommend my gameplan is then? Do I just cast colour spray then defer endlessly with no attack? I really don't want to have to wear a load of armor that increases my arcane spell penalty and have to focus on Concentration, that seems counter productive, surely? Or maybe I'm totally wrong. Please enlighten me, I'm still a noob to most of this. :)
I mean, you are going low-level caster. You're going to be short on spell slots no matter what. Your gameplan is going to be Color Spray/Sleep/Charm Person, then plink with a bow. Your best bet... hmm. If Magic of Incarnum is available, play an Azurin (a variant human; they're best, but any of the essentia-boosting races from there will do) and take Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle). Now you have an at-will 2d6 acid ranged touch attack, which is quite solid for the first few levels.

If you don't want to hoard your spell slots, you're probably going to need to look at non-casting options.

Rogues, obviously
The Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) is even better. You lose 2 skill points and some Sneak Attack (though you do start with the full 1d6), but can pick up a few neat magic powers to hide up your sleeve.
Scouts are a neat alternative to Rogues, and at low levels you won't need to worry too much about getting Skirmish damage on multiple attacks.
Spellthiefs are another Rogue-alternative that, at low levels, are mostly straight upgrades. At levels 1-3 you won't get spellcasting, but you'll get sneak attack and the ability to steal spell slots and spell effects. You can do it harmlessly, too, so you can effectively double the party casters' action economy. There's an ACF out there that boosts your casting to Bard levels, but I think it's in Dragon.
Rangers can use the Trap Expert ACF (Dungeonscape) to trade Track for Trapfinding and Disable Device.
Clerics with the Kobold domain (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) get Trapfinding, Search, and Disable Device. Add on Trickery for Bluff and Hide...


If you don't mind giving up trap stuff, Swordsage (Tome of Battle) is a phenomenal sneak, and their powers are practically at-will.

[Jarob22]

This essentia stuff looks cool, though it says dissolving spittle is a greater chakra, doesn't that mean I need a high level to get it? Or am I misunderstanding the link between chakra and soulmending?

[Grod_The_Giant]

This essentia stuff looks cool, though it says dissolving spittle is a greater chakra, doesn't that mean I need a high level to get it? Or am I misunderstanding the link between chakra and soulmending?
BINDING a Soulmeld has a level requirement, either via the Open Chakra feats or by progressing in a meldshaping class. SHAPING a Soulmeld does not, nor does investing essentia.

[Eldariel]

You could pick Precocious Apprentice [Complete Arcane] for a 2nd level spell like Invisibility, Glitterdust or such 1/day. Those are great. Note, you can just take Craft: Alchemy and rely on things like Alchemist's Fires for damage; those aren't too expensive when self-crafted and you can start with a reasonable number. You could also get some Scrolls and Use Magic Device, though your chances go up on level 2 with Decipher Script and Spellcraft synergy bonuses. You definitely want an Int-bonus race. The extra 1st level spell from 20 Int is incredible, as is the extra DC and extra skills. Lesser Tiefling, Gray/Sun/Fire Elf, Deep Imaskari, etc. are all fair choices (though if you focus on mundane stealth, look into Whisper Gnome as well, and standard Rock Gnome with the Illusion-bonus is a decent middleground, but you probably want the +1 slot more than +1 DC on this level - Strongheart Halfling is strong too with the feat + small size, but I generally prefer the bonus slot on this level).

Note that Silent Image is also an insane spell with a lot of potential both, out of combat and in combat. Combine with Prestidigitation and Ghost Sounds for best effect. Mindless things just can't really deal with it as they lack the wits to test if it's real and illusionary Darkness is a one-side concealment, for example. Be creative! It can do almost anything.

Far as feats, some great options:
Vow of Nonviolence : If you just Color Spray/Sleep/Charm/Silent Image/etc. everything, this gives you a [b]huge boost to all DCs (+4). If you're exalted. Just get good at binding people or something to disable them without needing to kill. Then carry 'em back to town for justice.

Shadow Weave Magic [PGtF]: For other alignments, not nearly as impactful though. And Spell Focus: Enchantment opens up Unsettling Enchantment.

Unsettling Enchantment [CM]: As mentioned, a nice debuff no matter what happens.

Arcane Disciple [CD]: Is there a 1st level spell you'd really want, such as Enlarge Person, Ray of Enfeeblement or Grease? Find a domain that has it (e.g. Slime for Grease, Strength for Enlarge Person, Necromancy for Ray of Enfeeblement), get 11+ Wis, pick Arcane Disciple, profit. These can add all kinds of combat power to your list.

Obtain Familiar [CA]: It gets your skills and comes with stuff like great Spot, Blindsense, minor bonuses (Hummingbird has Initiative-bonus for instance), speech (Raven for UMD) or such. Excellent scouts and utility/users. Extra actions for Aid Another or such too.

Darkstalker [LoM]: Hide from special senses. More important later on but as someone who hides, this is always useful to you particularly if you go a small race.

Wild Cohort [WoTC Site (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)]: Riding Dog is basically a fighter on this level with Studded Leather Barding for instance. This gets you one, in case you need to do some fighting or want something to ride or whatever. Make sure it's trained for War so it can trip on top of it. This feat is incredible early on if you want some Druidic flavor and a sneak always enjoys a bodyguard and a partner/distractor.


For more detail, see the Beguiler Handbook (http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php?topic=727.0). And do carry a weapon; it's always better than nothing to be able to plick away at the enemy with a bow. Indeed, basically all characters are equally good at this on level 1-2; nobody can afford a Composite Bow so it's just a Dex-check with some classes getting +1 from BAB. Thus unless you go the non-violence route (an interesting alternative), always pack a bow and consider other weapons too, like a dagger (mostly for utility like cutting ropes and the ease of concealment) and the sling (a good option vs. e.g. Skeletons, that are resistant to all but bludgeoning damage).

EDIT: Beguiler with 20 Int is generally fine for 1st level. You have 5 first level spells and 5 cantrips per day (Daze is a good one to trade actions with a tough guy in combat while your friends/companions/pawns/bodyguards take care of it - others are more for non-combat/pre-combat like Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Message, Ghost Sounds, etc.). Don't sell the cantrips short; they're a huge increase in your power. And 5 spells means you can afford to burn one per an encounter on average which tends to suffice. Just remember that you don't have endless gas in tank and thus use weapons, items and skills where you can. Also consider Scrolls to enhance your endurance on long days (Silent Image, Enlarge Person, Ray of Enfeeblement and Grease are all good scrolls on the first level).

PBS is small impact and Precise Shot only matters if you shoot into melee (just don't and you're fine). You can easily make bows and light crossbows work great with no feat investment whatsoever. Indeed, I'd go as far as to say the feats are nearly not worth picking up on these levels. Just good Dex and weapon proficiencies (Elves get Longbow profs, but then you need 10+ Str; otherwise Crossbows are good) is all it takes to be an archer on level 1-2.

Otherwise, as above, Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) is solid with the right domains and high Wis and good skill investment. It can be kind of a do-it-all class on this level, a one-man party particularly with Frostburn-spells like Ice Slick and Conjure Ice Beast 1 (also Spontaneous Domain Casting for something like Enlarge Person, Charm Person or Silent Image is nice, though spontaneous Cures are surprisingly good on this level too). If you go down this route, raising caster level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?484088-3-5-Raising-Caster-Level) to use your Ice Beasts and Ice Slicks for more than 1 round is definitely recommended (Divine Spell Power [CD] is a great one). Luckily a Cleric has a lot of options between domains, traits, feats and items to accomplish this.

[Jarob22]

Some awesome stuff there Eldariel. One thing to note to both you and Grok - my ability stats are (GM rules are they have to be rolled, can't just choose from stat pool):

STR: 11
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 16
WIS: 14
CHA: 15

Lesser tiefling would just get me to 18 INT, not 20. I'm gonna have a good look into Arcane Disciple. I don't think I can rely on the rest of the party being nonviolent, and GM ruled Shadow Weave Magic isn't allowed as we aren't going to be in FR.

Obtain familiar looks interesting, especially that hummingbird.

[Grod_The_Giant]

18 Int is pretty solid... I'd probably go Azurin Beguiler, grab either Arcane Disciple or Precocious Apprentice for your casting and Shape Soulmeld for your workhorse attack at 1st. If you get to 3rd, Obtain Familiar, maybe? (I always forget it needs CL 3)

[Jarob22]

Wait what? Azurin means I don't get to 18, no?

I'm thinking arcane disciple is gonna be better than precocious apprentice, the best lvl 2 spells are glitterdust and mirror image from what I see and although a clutch of either of those might be nice (as long as the check goes off), gaining access to more spells via disciple I think is better. I might be wrong though!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wait what? Azurin means I don't get to 18, no?

I'm thinking arcane disciple is gonna be better than precocious apprentice, the best lvl 2 spells are glitterdust and mirror image from what I see and although a clutch of either of those might be nice (as long as the check goes off), gaining access to more spells via disciple I think is better. I might be wrong though!
Oh no, you're right. My bad. Going with a non-Incarnum races means Dissolving Spittle will only do 1d6 unless you dedicate a second feat to it. Which is passable at level 1-2, I guess, given that it's a touch attack?

[Jarob22]

Wait I'm confused. If I go Azurin do I get 2d6 Spittle, or 1d6? How do I get to use Spittle at all without going Azurin?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wait I'm confused. If I go Azurin do I get 2d6 Spittle, or 1d6? How do I get to use Spittle at all without going Azurin?
Mkay. So.

The Shape Soulmeld feat lets you pick a single meld to shape (gain the effects of). You can't bind it (to get the more powerful effect), and it doesn't give you essentia (so you can't power it up).

The Dissolving Spittle meld has a base effect of letting you make 1d6 damage ranged touch attacks. Every point of essentia you invest increases that damage by 1d6. So if you just have the meld (say, because you took the feat), it can only do 1d6.

The Azurin gains a point of essentia as a racial feature. If you have that, you can invest it in the meld as a swift action, increasing the damage by 1d6.

Is the a little clearer? Sorry; meldshaping is kind of poorly explained.

[Jarob22]

Do ranged touch attacks come under the same rules as firing ranged into melee (i.e. -4 to hit)? If so, seems kinda pointless. If not, how do you calculate the to hit chance?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Do ranged touch attacks come under the same rules as firing ranged into melee (i.e. -4 to hit)? If so, seems kinda pointless. If not, how do you calculate the to hit chance?
They do, unfortunately. It's the same calculation as always, 1d20 + BAB + Dex (+misc). The bonus for a ranged touch is that it's targeting touch AC instead of normal, which is usually lower. (Looking at some random low-CR enemies, that looks like it's usually around an effective +2 to +3). And don't forget, it's a standard action; even if everyone is engaged in melee, you can hold/ready your action and ask your melee fighters to five-foot step away after they swing.

[Eldariel]

Are you allowed to pick where to invest your rolled attributes or are you locked into that configuration? If you can swap, you could actually do 16 Dex (18 with Fire Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves)) and 14 Str and pick up a Composite Longbow next level for pretty good archery (1d8+2 is good level 2 damage, and masterwork bow might be affordable, and you'd have good bonuses). Sling is also useful in this regard. The current setup is pretty nice for the various skills though.

Anyways, 4 castings of 1st level spells is still fine - you still want to maximize Int even if you'll never get the 2nd bonus first level spell. And Int still gives DC and skill points and bonus to Knowledges and such (Knowledges are very powerful; invest at least one rank in all the big ones), so Int-bonus race is a solid option.


Dissolving Spittle is solid (touch attack is great vs. big, clumsy monsters like giants as well as humanoids in armor), but I'd rather invest feats in improving casting/skills and go with a bow instead. Elves get proficiency, with those stats you definitely want a Longbow so you can move and shoot each round. Alchemical items can complement this nicely.

[Jarob22]

I'm really not sure if it's worth losing an extra feat from being human to get this spittle attack..especially as I probably won't get more than one essentia to use. I feel like getting arcane disciple or hummingbird is gonna be better than +2/3 to hit on a 1d6 attack. What you reckon?

[Jarob22]

Hey Eldariel - we can pick where to invest, but why do I want dex for a composite? Doesn't it use str instead?

[Eldariel]

Hey Eldariel - we can pick where to invest, but why do I want dex for a composite? Doesn't it use str instead?

It uses Dex to hit and Str to damage. All ranged attacks are based on Dex by default - Brutal Throw feat changes thrown weapons to Str but that's the only real exception. That's why it can be inconvenient unless you have good stats across the board - which you just so conveniently happen to have :smallamused: And Fire Elf with 15 Str, 18 Dex, 12 Con, 18 Int, 11 Wis, 12 Cha is pretty solid all-around. You can swap Wis and Cha as desired too. Mind, it's pretty expensive - unless you craft it yourself, you probably can't afford one with Strength-rating on the first level. Then again, self-made bow sounds kinda nice and Craft is Int-based so go for it.

[Jarob22]

Ah! That makes sense, thanks. I'm just looking at the racial bonuses, what does:

- +2 Listen, Search and Spot. Able to search for secret/concealed doors within 5 feet.

mean? I thought search was for locating secret doors, so what does 'able to search for them' mean in addition?

[Eldariel]

Ah! That makes sense, thanks. I'm just looking at the racial bonuses, what does:

- +2 Listen, Search and Spot. Able to search for secret/concealed doors within 5 feet.

mean? I thought search was for locating secret doors, so what does 'able to search for them' mean in addition?

Elves have a 6th sense for secret doors. They get automatic Search-checks for any secret doors they pass by (otherwise you have to spend a large amount of time searching each square you wish to search; 6 seconds for take 10 or 2 minutes for take 20).

[Jarob22]

Ah, I see! Fire elf sounds like it's gonna make me the most useful EDIT: found it, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm - So looks like (masterwork component cost / 3) + (bow cost / 3) = (300 / 3) + (100 / 3) = 133gp for a medium composite longbow. Is that correct?

Also, will using a bow hamper my spellcasting abilities? It needs 2 hands, so I'd need to put it away/bring it out after/before casting a spell, right? That's part of a move action, if so, I think.

Do I get the buckler bonus if I'm using my bow with 2 hands and I get attacked? If not I just won't bother with a shield at all. In the same vein, I guess I can just go for Studded Leather armor, since the next one up is 75gp more, which I don't think is worth it if I'm gonna need my gold later.

[Eldariel]

Ah, I see! Fire elf sounds like it's gonna make me the most useful - I don't suppose you could help me out figuring how much it would cost to craft a composite & masterwork composite bow?

Raw materials cost 1/3rd of the whole bow. Composite Bow with Str +2 to damage costs 300gp so the raw materials and crafting cost 100gp, generally within 1st level budget. It takes DC 19 Craft: Bowmaking checks so you'll have to invest in that skill; +4 Int and 4 Ranks gives you +8 or 50% chance of making progress each week allowing you to finish it eventually. Thus you could reasonably start the game with it. Alternatively, +1 Strength C. Longbow is just DC17 so you can just take 10 to make it (meaning you'd only get +1 Str to damage with it). It'd cost 200gp/3 to craft, so significantly cheaper too (67gp, approximately).


Also, will using a bow hamper my spellcasting abilities? It needs 2 hands, so I'd need to put it away/bring it out after/before casting a spell, right? That's part of a move action, if so, I think.

If you're holding an item, such as a weapon, in two hands, releasing a hand for casting is a free action. Thus a two-handed weapon is ideal to combine with casting.


Do I get the buckler bonus if I'm using my bow with 2 hands and I get attacked? If not I just won't bother with a shield at all. In the same vein, I guess I can just go for Studded Leather armor, since the next one up is 75gp more, which I don't think is worth it if I'm gonna need my gold later.

A shield just isn't worth it, generally. Armor, yeah, Studded Leather at best on level 1. Even that's expensive.

[Jarob22]

Ah right, I think it might be worth just going for the +1 instead of +2 to make sure I can get it, and so I can afford some other stuff as well. If I make the +1 str composite longbow, how much would making it masterwork via crafting be? Just the 300/3 for the component?

Thanks for the info about casting + shields.

[Eldariel]

Ah right, I think it might be worth just going for the +1 instead of +2 to make sure I can get it, and so I can afford some other stuff as well. If I make the +1 str composite longbow, how much would making it masterwork via crafting be? Just the 300/3 for the component?

Thanks for the info about casting + shields.

Mw. would be 300gp/3 (100gp) for the Mw. component and 67gp (200gp/3) for the Bow so it's just too expensive on this level. If you get any downtime after you get a bit richer, it's a consideration though.

[Jarob22]

I'd have to make the bow again?

Also, completely separate question - penalties for load don't start coming in until you reach/surpass medium load, right? What's light load for?

[Eldariel]

I'd have to make the bow again?

Also, completely separate question - penalties for load don't start coming in until you reach/surpass medium load, right? What's light load for?

Yes, you can't add Mw to a weapon, nor can you alter its Str rating. A weapon either is well-made or isn't; you can't turn a poor quality bow into a piece of master craftsmanship without taking it apart. Mw component is only considered a separate with regards to crafting rules. However, you tend to get a lot of gold so in the long run, having to make another bow isn't the end of the world. Crafting is a good way to save money; elven lack of need for sleep can help here for instance.

As for loads, once you exceed light load, you are in medium load and take the appropriate penalties. Stay in light load (and armor) to keep your full mobility. This is why 15 Str is useful - odd numbers count towards carrying capacity.

For carrying lots of stuff, beasts with saddlebags are useful as is a bag you can drop during combat.

[Jarob22]

Right, that all makes sense, thank you very much. I think I'll come back with a modified char and see what you guys think, if that's ok :)

[Jarob22]

Hi Grok/Eldariel - Arcane Disciple and Obtain Familiar seem to be out of my reach - I'd need knowledge (religion) and spellcraft of 4 ranks to get the first, and I'd need Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks and arcane caster level 3 for the latter.

I can't really spare the skill points for the first and I'm only 1st level so I can't reach the reqs for the latter. How were you thinking I'd get these?

As an aside - I've uploaded my front sheet, skill sheet and equipment list if you guys wouldn't mind taking a look, I'd really appreciate it. :) EDIT: I know I've used more skill points than I have, I forgot to amend those from when I was human.
https://snag.gy/jNK6TX.jpg
https://snag.gy/MW8atb.jpg
https://snag.gy/OSRYen.jpg

[Khedrac]

I don't think your skill points add up (you should have 40 and I can only see 34).

Also, you haven't specified which craft you are putting those 3 points in, and, considering that they cost you 6, I would not put any skill points in a craft at first level with it cross-class unless you have a specific character reason for doing so (if you have a good reason, such as wanting a character who cooks, then go for it - but you need to specify the craft).
Which is a good point, you cannot have 3 ranks in Knowledge Nature or (a) Craft - they are cross-class skills so your maximums at level 1 is 2 ranks (4 skill points).

If you are going to take Use Magic Device at all, then it should have max skill ranks. It is one of those skills where having a small ability in it is pointless.
Concentration must have max ranks - as a beguiler you will want to cast when threated quite a lot of the time: with color spray's 15' cone you may often find you have a choice: cast in melee then 5' step behind the fighters or 5' step and then cast hitting the party fighters (which is a bad idea). Without ranks in concentration you are giving up the option of casting when threatened.

Also I would strongly recommend having ranks in Spellcraft.
If you can, maximise your seach skill - it is no use being able to disarm a trap if you cannot find it (and with your elven free search for secret doors this is a real benefit skill).

Do you really need 2 ranks (see above) in Knowledge Nature? If you just take 1 you can put the two skill points into something possibly more useful (like stealth skills).

[Jarob22]

Sorry, where am I getting 40 points from? 6 + int = 24 not 40...

[Eldariel]

Oh indeed, craft is not a class skill for Beguilers... That rains on the parade. Just settle for a Longbow then and get a Mw. Composite Longbow with +2 Str whwn you can afford it.

Also forgot about the CL3 of Obtain Familiar and the lack of all Knowledges on the Beguiler list. That sadly shuts down those feat options for now unless you spend another feat on something like Educated to get all Knowledges in class. Probably not worth it.

You should have 14 Wis and 9 Cha or 11 Wis and 12 Cha with your rolls (I favour the latter for social skills and Charm Person checks). Fire Elves have -2 Cha, not -2 Wis. Tho without the Composite bow you could consider Gray Elf for -2 Str over -2 Cha, or placing the 11 in Str after all.

Far as skill points, you should indeed have (6+Int)x4 or 40. You only need 1 rank in Open Lock for now: this allows you to use the skill amd you can take 20 (2 minutes) to open DC 25 locks and pick DC 15 ones on take 10.

I recommend maxed Spellcraft on all casters: knowing what others are casting, counterspells, magical effects, it's too useful not to have. Same with Concentration.

Take at least 1 rank (or 1/2 cross class) in Trained Only skills like key Knowledges (Arcana, Local, Nature, Religion, the Planes, Dungeoneering used to identify creatures), Tumble & Forgery. Consider all those Knowledges but take at least Arcane and Local. These allow you to roll at all for these skills and with your Int/Dex, you habe nice bonuses to use.

You get to max out up to 10 skills. In addition to Spellcraft and Concentration, I'd go Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device. Then Spot is always useful and I'd pick Bluff and Diplomacy to complement Charm Person. Then 1-rank wonders in K: Arcana, Local, Forgery and Tumble. Combat Climbing is rarely a good idea so do it with time.

[Jarob22]

I'll change up my skills then, but where is the x4 coming from?

[Eldariel]

I'll change up my skills then, but where is the x4 coming from?

First level, your standard skillpoint gains are quadrupled.

[Jarob22]

Oh, ok. Thanks!

[Khedrac]

Sorry, where am I getting 40 points from? 6 + int = 24 not 40...
Important point - it is not "6+Int" but "6 + Int Modifier" = 6+4 = 10


I'll change up my skills then, but where is the x4 coming from?
As said, this 10 is multipled by 4 at first level. Note: this is your first level as a character not the first level in any class you take.

The skill maximums are "3 + character level" for class skills and "half of (three + character level)" for cross-class skills.
Cross-class skills cost two points per rank, class skills cost 1 point per rank.
If the skill is not a class skill for the class you are taking a level of, but was a class skill for a class you already have levels in, then the cap remains at "Level + 3" but the skill costs 2/rank.

[Jarob22]

If I'm reading tumble correctly, does this mean if I pass the dc that I can tumble for one half speed to move in and out of fights without provoking any AOO at all? Putting 1 point into tumble gives me a total of 5, meaning that on average I should succeed, which is pretty cool.

I'm quite concerned about my hitpoints - 5 is really low, even for 1st level. =/ I guess I just need to position well?

Would Widen Spell be a good feat to take, since all the good ones that were mentioned, I can't take?

[Eldariel]

If I'm reading tumble correctly, does this mean if I pass the dc that I can tumble for one half speed to move in and out of fights without provoking any AOO at all? Putting 1 point into tumble gives me a total of 5, meaning that on average I should succeed, which is pretty cool.

I'm quite concerned about my hitpoints - 5 is really low, even for 1st level. =/ I guess I just need to position well?

Yes, 1 rank in Tumble gives you a 55% chance of moving out of a square that would normally provoke AoO without provoking. This is a good way around taking AoOs (which you definitely don't want to be taking, also why you want Concentration for defensive casting). Your HD is d6 and you get full HD on first level, so your HP should be 7. It's still low, but so is everyone else's (even Fighters often have only 12 HP and they're up their face in melee with probably lower AC than yours).

Use your Hide, Move Silently, AC (17 is quite high on level 1!), range (all your spells and attacks work at range; your best defense is not being next to anybody), speed (many heavily armored or heavily equipped enemies have trouble keeping up with 30' movement speed) and offensive potential (if they stunned/sleeping, you're safe - you have some of the strongest alpha strike potential on level 1 at reasonable range). Your high initiative helps in this regard to get a spell off before enemies get to act too. Color Spray, Sleep (1 round cast time so cast from outside enemy range) and Silent Image can all negate entire encounters, and Ghost Sounds/Prestidigitation/Silent Image can draw attention off you as well.


EDIT: You can still take Vow of Nonviolence - it just concerns personal violence strictly speaking. No Widen Spell; you need to be able to cast level 3 spells before it's of any use to you (character level 6). You could consider e.g. Wild Cohort for a bodyguard to stand behind and an extra melee warrior for the party, and a distractor for when you're doing roguey stuff. If yours dies, no big deal, you can just get another one with a full day's work. Expendable melee combatants are great since level 1 is so dangerous (a random Orc Warrior with CR ½ with a great axe can randomly crit for 3d12+12 averaging 29.5 damage or enough to one-shot a 20 Con Raging Barbarian straight to death).

[Jarob22]

I didnt know about getting full HD on level 1!

Alright, I'll take all that advice under consideration.

VonV says: Your purity is so great that any ally of yours who slays a helpless or defenseless foe within 120 feet of you feels great remorse

I really feel like this isn't fitting in with my character at all. My alignment is CN, and I'm a haughty fire elf, who gets off on sneaking around, doing roguey things and making people defenceless with charm/stuns, and VonV just feels wrong.

[Jarob22]

I think I'll ask if Wild Cohort is available. If so, I'll take that.

[Eldariel]

I wrote a bit on feats too. Take stuff that's useful now; Spell Focus: Illusion or Enchantment is also nice if Shadow Weave Magic isn't available (most of your best spells allow saves), and stuff like Nymph's Kiss [Book of Exalted Deeds] for extra skill points (ask nicely for 4x on level 1) and bonuses to Charisma-checks, or Darkstalker [Lords of Madness] to use Hide vs. special like Scent (Guard Dogs for instance), Blindsense (e.g. Bat Familiars, Dire Bat companions and many monsters) and Tremorsense (burrowing things, Earth Elementals and such) can be quite useful as they can otherwise pinpoint you even if you're hiding.

[Jarob22]

Awesome, some cool suggestions. I think either Wild Cohort, or if not available, spell focus: illusion. Nymph's kiss requires me to have an intimate relation with a good-aligned created when I'm CN, which seems less than likely. Darkstalker sounds good, but I think not -quite- as useful as the first 2, but I guess it's circumstantial. Thank you once again for all your help :)

I think for my other new char (mage-type) I need to roll I'll go more standard, this has been difficult (but fun)!

[Jarob22]

Hello both...I'm back again (sorry).

I'm in the process of making my wiz/mage/caster back ranks clothy type and finding that actually...my beguiler has already got a lot of what people bring sorcs/wiz for, and that going for a pure blasting sorc is more difficult than I thought to actually be useful.

At the moment the party is going to be:

Druid
Paladin, tanky-type
Beguiler
Ranger (ranged-type)
Final char (this mage-type)

I'm thinking that actually..I might want another front rank fighter instead of a back rank spellcaster. What do you guys think?

[Eldariel]

Hello both...I'm back again (sorry).

I'm in the process of making my wiz/mage/caster back ranks clothy type and finding that actually...my beguiler has already got a lot of what people bring sorcs/wiz for, and that going for a pure blasting sorc is more difficult than I thought to actually be useful.

At the moment the party is going to be:

Druid
Paladin, tanky-type
Beguiler
Ranger (ranged-type)
Final char (this mage-type)

I'm thinking that actually..I might want another front rank fighter instead of a back rank spellcaster. What do you guys think?

Why not just make it a Cleric? With the right domain choices and build (I covered some ideas in the post about Cloistered Cleric alternative), you get most of the Wizard-style effects (Ice Slick, Conjure Ice Beast, Domain effects with Spontaneous Domain Casting) on a shell that can fight and even has access to healing (and can use Wands of Lesser Vigor) if desired.

You could also go Cloistered Cleric if you can make do with light armor, get lots of skillpoints and trade Knowledge-domain for Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion] for combat bonuses. Then you could also pick Law Devotion over another Domain for massive combat bonuses (+3 to hit OR AC each round for 1 min, recharge with 2 Turn Uses). Or some utility domain with good spells (Spell-domain is superb, though for low levels you might want caster level buffs for your spell duration): Clerics are great.

Also, you could just pick Divine Metamagic: Fell Drain and us that on 1st level AOE damage spells like Burning Hands (Fire-domain) instagibbing 1HD targets but that's kinda dirty.

Alternatively, you can never go wrong with a second Druid - extra animal companions, spells, summons, warriors, etc is great. Or Wizard: more Color Sprays is always useful and a Wizard brings all Knowledge-skills (very inportant for in-character knowledge of what your enemies are and can do) and some other great spells like Benign Transposition (level 1 teleportation is pretty sweet), Enlarge Person, Ray of Enfeeblement and Grease. Also optionally Precocious Apprentice + Focused Specialist + Fiery Burst for an AOE 2d6 (Ref half) blast at will.