Mystic Theurge Questions

[EliteChoboHax]

Whats the earliest you can enter the Mystic Theurge Class and which feat and such can you utilize to offset the low spell levels?

I was thinking that you could get access to it at 3rd level wizard/1st level Cleric, as clerics can convert a 2nd level spellslot (From the wizard) and turn it into a 2nd level cure spell? It sounds a bit cheesy, but i have seen nothing so far that directly prohibits that (If its there, let me know and a link/direction would be appreciated)

My character would be a level 8 total, so 3rd level Wizard/1st Level Cleric/4th Level Mystic Theurge for a combined level 7 Wizard Spell progression and 5th Cleric - Right?

How do i go about making this even better and more symbiotic with feats, skills, traits, anything that comes to mind

Help me, oh Giants in the Playground, i'd appreciate it

Forgot to mention this was for a Pathfinder game.

[flappeercraft]

You can be a Loredrake Spellhoarding Loredrake Wizard to get 2 levels earlier

Edit: Since this is for PF just ignore what I said.

[Troacctid]

Be an Illumian with the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat and you can get in as a Cleric 1/Wizard 1/[whatever] 1. If you do some nonsense with becoming a lycanthrope and getting the affliction cured, you can end up with Cleric 1/Wizard 1 entry.

[Psyren]

I was thinking that you could get access to it at 3rd level wizard/1st level Cleric, as clerics can convert a 2nd level spellslot (From the wizard) and turn it into a 2nd level cure spell? It sounds a bit cheesy, but i have seen nothing so far that directly prohibits that (If its there, let me know and a link/direction would be appreciated)
...
Forgot to mention this was for a Pathfinder game.

Sorry, but PF explicitly prohibits this. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9s55)

[EliteChoboHax]

Sorry, but PF explicitly prohibits this. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9s55)

Alright, thank you for the clarification :)

[Kurald Galain]

Whats the earliest you can enter the Mystic Theurge Class and which feat and such can you utilize to offset the low spell levels?
I believe Equipment Trick: Sunrod is the only early entry loophole that PF hasn't errata'ed out of existence.

[Gusmo]

Equipment trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/equipment-trick-combat/), under Sunrod:


Like the Sun (ability to cast any spell with the light descriptor): You can use a sunrod as an additional material component for any spell that bears the light descriptor. The spell is treated as one spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes, including the calculation of saving throw DCs and its ability to overcome sources of magical darkness.


Find an arcane and divine class that can cast a light spell (dancing lantern and unwelcome halo are on enough class lists that you should be fine), take a level of each, then with this feat, you can cast arcane and divine second level spells.

There's also faith magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/faith-magic/), though it doesn't come online as early.

[BearonVonMu]

Pathfinder's Kobold Press made a base class called Theurge.
It provides most of the things that a wizard/cleric would get spells-wise from level one.
If you wanted things to get weird, you could go from that to Mystic Theurge... and it might advance your spellcasting two levels for every level of Mystic Theurge.

[Eldonauran]

If you have access to the Inner Sea Magic book, you could check out the colleges, specifically the Kintargo Opera House. You can get an overall +3 to one of your spellcasting class and +1 to the other. Not just caster level, but actual increases to your casting, up to your HD of course.

So, if you went the Faith Magic route with a Wizard, you'd end up at 16th level (Wizard 5/Cleric 1/ Mystic Theurge 10) with full casting for Wizard (16) and 14th level casting for cleric.

[DeTess]

Pathfinder's Kobold Press made a base class called Theurge.
It provides most of the things that a wizard/cleric would get spells-wise from level one.
If you wanted things to get weird, you could go from that to Mystic Theurge... and it might advance your spellcasting two levels for every level of Mystic Theurge.

Now, Some DM's might disagree, but I'd definitely be opposed to this kind of cheese involving a third party class. I might approve the class itself, but a player then attempting a trick like this would meet GameMasterus, god of falling rocks (or, you know, just get told 'No.').

[NightbringerGGZ]

If you have access to the Inner Sea Magic book, you could check out the colleges, specifically the Kintargo Opera House. You can get an overall +3 to one of your spellcasting class and +1 to the other. Not just caster level, but actual increases to your casting, up to your HD of course.

So, if you went the Faith Magic route with a Wizard, you'd end up at 16th level (Wizard 5/Cleric 1/ Mystic Theurge 10) with full casting for Wizard (16) and 14th level casting for cleric.

If you pick up the Magical Knack trait you could also get your Cleric caster level up to 16. You wouldn't have full spell slots, but it's nice for spells that scale with CL.

[Azoth]

You can go a step further and get involved in some old school Legacy Champion style fun by using the Evangelist prestige class and having it advance Mystic Theurge beyond its base 10 levels. Just hope you are good at dodging books. So Wiz2/Cleric1/MT10/EV7.

Any combination of X6/Y4/MT10 will get you dual 9ths if you use Inner Sea Magic's mage guilds to get Esoteric and Eclectic Training.

If you use Equipment Trick Sunrod (Like the Sun) to early entry, then X2/Y1/MT will get you in. It just means staggering your advancement on the back end.

So for Wizard schools like Conjuration (Teleportation), Divination (Foresight), and Void are go to's because they are either incredibly front loaded with school abilities or scale with Caster Level not Wizard level.

Cleric grabbing domains with either good spell lists or strong 1st level abilities are a must. I am a fan of Travel and Trickery myself.

[Gusmo]

If you're going to go the evangelist route, I would recommend going mystic theurge, then evangelist ASAP, so that evangelist doesn't actually progress any virtual levels of mystic theurge. Once evangelist has maxed MT's casting, then go back to taking actual MT levels for what might be a stronger argument for going past 10 levels of MT casting. Something like wiz2/cleric1/MT2/evangelist9/MT+6.

[grarrrg]

Evangelist being able to advance a PrC at all is a very debated topic.

Even if it does, levels 11+ of Mystic Theurge do not exist. Regardless of combination you'd still max out at 10 levels of MT.

[Psyren]

If you have access to the Inner Sea Magic book, you could check out the colleges, specifically the Kintargo Opera House. You can get an overall +3 to one of your spellcasting class and +1 to the other. Not just caster level, but actual increases to your casting, up to your HD of course.

So, if you went the Faith Magic route with a Wizard, you'd end up at 16th level (Wizard 5/Cleric 1/ Mystic Theurge 10) with full casting for Wizard (16) and 14th level casting for cleric.

Quoting this as it is an often-overlooked option, but it seems to have been expressly designed to make MTs more powerful.

[BearonVonMu]

Now, Some DM's might disagree, but I'd definitely be opposed to this kind of cheese involving a third party class. I might approve the class itself, but a player then attempting a trick like this would meet GameMasterus, god of falling rocks (or, you know, just get told 'No.').

I would be one of the ones to say no to it. You can be one or the other, but never the two shall meet.
I just liked how they interacted. It might be a way to make some high-HD, low power monster race viable: to say you could take only X levels of mystic theurge, just enough to bring the blended spell list to the viable band. Perhaps on one of the "Level adjustment -2" or so races.
There was another class... True Necromancer. Assuming you have dealt with the awkward prerequisites, Mystic Theurge and True Necromancer also seemed to have possibilities for interaction.

That's all of the mild thread derailment I have to for today. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread?

[Azoth]

Evangelist being able to advance a PrC at all is a very debated topic.

Even if it does, levels 11+ of Mystic Theurge do not exist. Regardless of combination you'd still max out at 10 levels of MT.

That is why I called it out as "Legacy Champion style fun". Using Legacy Champion to advance a PRC beyond printed levels was something done in 3.5, and it is the same debate all over again. You can find countless threads on here, ENworld, and other sites debating it.




Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian’s damage reduction, a fighter’s bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin’s smite evil, or a rogue’s sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate.



Since no class has more than 20 printed levels, you could say that you can not under any circumstances play a level 21 Fighter. Paizo itself disagrees by stating the above quote. You can advance a class beyond its printed levels and gain the aforementioned benefits by doing so.

What this means, is that if you were to take an 11th level of Mystic Theurge, you would gain the normal BAB, Save, and skill point advancements of the class. The only scaling class ability of the Mystic Theurge that is not given a hard cap by the class itself is its caster progression of +1 Existing Arcane and Divine caster progression.

This means that if one were to take an 11th level of Mystic Theurge they would have Poor BAB progression, Poor Fort and Reflex Save progression, Good Will save progression, and +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class.

Since Paizo's own rules for advancing beyond level 20 do not call out only applying the progression to base classes, but state any class you can do this for PRCs as well. Mystic Theurge 11 is no more against the rules of the game than Fighter 21. Just because one can attain Mystic Theurge 11 before Fighter 21 is no reason to deny it's existence.

Again if you want dual 9ths, you could just go Wizard3/Cleric3/Mystic Theurge10/Wizard+1/Cleric+3. Using Inner Sea Magic's Mage Guild rules to advance Wizard by 3 and Cleric by 1. This gives both classes an effective level of 17 and allows you to squeeze out dual 9ths by 20. Wizard gets its 9th at 17 and Cleric gets its at 20.

Even going Wiz2/Cleric1/MT2/EV10/MT+5 doesn't really speed things up. Wizard gets its 9ths at 19 and Cleric gets its at 20. Using Inner Sea Magic's Mage Guild rules, Wizard gets 9ths at 17 and Cleric gets its at 19.

Not really any more game breaking if we early entry and advance beyond printed levels. It just makes it more streamlined in the grand scheme. You get to do your thing at an earlier level and reach the same end game power at roughly the same level.

[grarrrg]

Since no class has more than 20 printed levels, you could say that you can not under any circumstances play a level 21 Fighter. Paizo itself disagrees by stating the above quote. You can advance a class beyond its printed levels and gain the aforementioned benefits by doing so.

If you're going to quote things, you may as well quote all the relevant bits:
"Although classes doesn’t describe what happens after 20th level, this isn’t to say that there are no resources available to you should you wish to continue your campaign on to 21st level and beyond. Rules for epic-level play like this exist in numerous products that are compatible with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, although in many cases these alternative rules can provide unanticipated problems.
..
The following are brief guidelines to continue play beyond 20th level.
...
Hit dice, base attack bonuses, and saving throws continue to increase at the same rate beyond 20th level
...
spellcaster’s caster level continues to increase by one for each level beyond 20th level.
...
The simplest way to progress beyond 20th level is to simply multiclass or take levels in a prestige class, in which case you gain all of the abilities of the new class level normally. "


Taken all together it is quite clear that:
*They are guidelines for play ABOVE level 20. Boosting a PrC to level 11 should not be allowed at all before character level 21 (if ever).
*They are very much VARIANT rules, and the opening paragraph basically says 'these guidelines are not fully thought/fleshed out, we just threw them in here real quick'.
*Given the presence of the 'Multiclass/Prestige' section, combined with the numerous references to 'beyond level 20', it should be quite clear that the 'scaling progression' was written with the intent to only apply to base classes.

[Azoth]

Taken all together it is quite clear that:
*They are guidelines for play ABOVE level 20. Boosting a PrC to level 11 should not be allowed at all before character level 21 (if ever).

I admit the guidelines are for play above 20th level. They are also the only guidelines or source of RAW for what to do should one want to progress a class beyond its printed levels. Whether a class should be progressed beyond its printed levels, and if/when that should be allowed is always a matter of opinion and nothing more.



*They are very much VARIANT rules, and the opening paragraph basically says 'these guidelines are not fully thought/fleshed out, we just threw them in here real quick'.

I do not disagree that these are not fully thought out or designed, but again, they are our only source of RAW in this matter.



*Given the presence of the 'Multiclass/Prestige' section, combined with the numerous references to 'beyond level 20', it should be quite clear that the 'scaling progression' was written with the intent to only apply to base classes.

Since when do we ever know a designer's intent simply by reading their work? We can infer whatever we like from it, but until a designer openly admits, by a medium we can all view, what their intent was we can't say it for certain.

Now, onto other things:

Did you miss the breakdown in my previous post? If so please scroll back up and look at it.


Even using early entry tricks, and progressing Mystic Theurge beyond its printed level, you get your main classes 9th level spells at the same time as a traditional entry. You also only get your secondary sides 9th level spells one level earlier.

Outside of getting to do your main character concept at level 4 instead of level 7, there is no noticeable difference between the two builds.

So, while I do admit that the RAW argument can go either way depending on interpretation of advancing a class beyond printed levels, it offers no true benefit nor detriment to game balance to allow it in this instance. I would also love for someone to show me a single PRC that if progressed beyond 10 levels would truly unbalance the game.