Wild Mage Sorcerer- It got a bad rap

[metaridley18]

Look, I get ya. They get shafted on spells know. Their defensive abilities are garbage. They don't have any control over their primary class feature, the wild surge. They get fewer castings of spells than the Wizard, which is a total flip from previous versions. By all rights, this looks like a crappy class on paper.


None of this matters. Step 1: talk to your GM and ensure you will get a decent quantity of wild surge when Tides of Chaos is on cooldown. Step 2: have a really, really good time.

Sorcery points are incredible. Having your higher level spells constantly is crazy good. Quicken, Twin, even Subtle have all come up so many times, I understand why metamagic is so limited. If I had more options it would be downright broken.

Tides of Chaos is so useful it isn't even funny. Rarely do I want advantage and not have it. Casting a spell, getting a surge, and refreshing ToC is great. Bend Luck is the best fate manipulation thing outside a Diviner Wizard, and even that is arguably overpowered.

Even the wild magic table has saved me so many times I can't explain it. There's something wonderful about getting the exact right roll you need to just dominate.

Hello, I'm metaridley18, and I've played D&D for 15 years. It took the 5E wild mage sorcerer to prove to me that white room theorycrafting is just BS.

[Jerrykhor]

Look, I get ya. They get shafted on spells know. Their defensive abilities are garbage. They don't have any control over their primary class feature, the wild surge. They get fewer castings of spells than the Wizard, which is a total flip from previous versions. By all rights, this looks like a crappy class on paper.


None of this matters. Step 1: talk to your GM and ensure you will get a decent quantity of wild surge when Tides of Chaos is on cooldown. Step 2: have a really, really good time.

Sorcery points are incredible. Having your higher level spells constantly is crazy good. Quicken, Twin, even Subtle have all come up so many times, I understand why metamagic is so limited. If I had more options it would be downright broken.

Tides of Chaos is so useful it isn't even funny. Rarely do I want advantage and not have it. Casting a spell, getting a surge, and refreshing ToC is great. Bend Luck is the best fate manipulation thing outside a Diviner Wizard, and even that is arguably overpowered.

Even the wild magic table has saved me so many times I can't explain it. There's something wonderful about getting the exact right roll you need to just dominate.

Hello, I'm metaridley18, and I've played D&D for 15 years. It took the 5E wild mage sorcerer to prove to me that white room theorycrafting is just BS.
I played through LMoP with a Wild Mage sorc. Its fun, but not a caster you can rely on in tough situations. Its the most YMMV subclass, so its hard to rate them. But Sorcerer base class is garbage, so they suffer.

Metamagic is great, the defining feature of the class, but its too limited. I don't agree with it being broken if Sorcs have more options of it, they are already limited by the tiny amount of spells known and sorcery points. In fact, I think they should be allowed 3 options at the start and gain 2 more at lv9 and another 2 more at lv15, and finally get all of them at 20 as a capstone. At 20 you should be the world's greatest sorcerer, its just lame that you still don't know all the metamagics.

Sorcerers are the worst class in 5e, by virtue of having no niche role. No adventuring party needs a sorcerer, because they bring nothing that other classes can't bring, and their spell casting is so limited. You pick a bunch of niche spells for the 'just-in-case' moments, those situations hardly come up, and you got nothing to spend your spells on. You pick combat spells and you'll just be a combat machine (usually in a team full of combat machines) with no utility. They are the only full casters without Ritual Casting, locked at 15 spells max and run out of spell points faster than a 100m sprint if you try to do the cool stuff that the guides say you are good for.

Its just embarrassing to call Sorcerer an arcane caster when they usually have garbage Arcana bonus, don't have Detect Magic/Identify/Comprehend Languages and all the other cool rituals that can solve magic problems. And when asked if you have spell X, the answer is usually 'no' because your spells known is utter ****.

[TheUser]

I played through LMoP with a Wild Mage sorc. Its fun, but not a caster you can rely on in tough situations. Its the most YMMV subclass, so its hard to rate them. But Sorcerer base class is garbage, so they suffer....


There's so much wrong with this reply it's hard to find a place to start. I disagree with a lot of what you've written but can see how many people would have this impression of the sorcerer if they have no experience



Metamagic is great, the defining feature of the class, but its too limited. I don't agree with it being broken if Sorcs have more options of it, they are already limited by the tiny amount of spells known and sorcery points. In fact, I think they should be allowed 3 options at the start and gain 2 more at lv9 and another 2 more at lv15, and finally get all of them at 20 as a capstone. At 20 you should be the world's greatest sorcerer, its just lame that you still don't know all the metamagics.

Having access to every metamagic is not the point of the sorcerer. The point of the sorcerer is to make choices that define your character and your role in the group as opposed to just getting them all. Not only that, but a sorcerer won't have the sorcerery points to back up 3 metamagic options at level 3 nor will they have enough to use 5 different ones at level 10. If you got what you wanted I can imagine your next complaint would be that you have to actually PAY for your meta magic and can barely use all of them with any level of frequency....

You sound like that guy who wants to have it all and be able to do it all, which is probably why you have so much trouble wrapping your head around the point of the sorcerer compared to wizards.

The whole point of the Sorcerer is to create a niche role for yourself through metamagic. Saying they have no niche is the antithesis of what the sorcerer actually is. They have a niche, you just have to build the character around it.

Want to do AoE damage? Pick up Empower. Congratulations you now have the best AoE damage output and slot efficiency possible for a caster.

Want to buff your team? Pick up Twinned Spell and have your party love you.

Want to be the best Sneak mage ever? Pick up Subtle.

There are definitely design flaws with Jeremy Crawford's *ahem* 'unique' interpretation of Careful spell (one which most DM's have casually ignored in my experience). But when it's not given the crap-tier treatment it's a very worthwhile metamagic for completely swinging fights.



Sorcerers are the worst class in 5e, by virtue of having no niche role. No adventuring party needs a sorcerer, because they bring nothing that other classes can't bring, and their spell casting is so limited. You pick a bunch of niche spells for the 'just-in-case' moments, those situations hardly come up, and you got nothing to spend your spells on. You pick combat spells and you'll just be a combat machine (usually in a team full of combat machines) with no utility. They are the only full casters without Ritual Casting, locked at 15 spells max and run out of spell points faster than a 100m sprint if you try to do the cool stuff that the guides say you are good for.

Its just embarrassing to call Sorcerer an arcane caster when they usually have garbage Arcana bonus, don't have Detect Magic/Identify/Comprehend Languages and all the other cool rituals that can solve magic problems. And when asked if you have spell X, the answer is usually 'no' because your spells known is utter ****.

Worst class in 5e? I'm sorry but now you've crossed a line. They aren't BM rangers or 4 Elements Monks. It sounds like you just want to have access to every spell ever and haven't enacted the effort of making a spell list that complements your role and your teammates. If all you care about is the white room capabilities of your class and fail to account for the fact there are very likely other casters in your group then you will always hate sorcerers. But the fact remains there are other people playing with you and to think you would be the only caster in a group when spell casting is already so strong is a rare situation to assume.

Sorcerers aren't there to have every spell needed for every situation (that'd be what Wizards are for) they are designed to pick a handful of spells to kick ass with harder than any other caster can dream of. Let someone else worry about the ritual casting.

No caster can compare with Empowered Fireballs or Subtle Suggestions or even Twinned Haste. It sounds like you played a sorcerer all the way up to tier 2 and were annoyed that while you were sitting on 2-6 spells the wizard had 4-10 and the cleric had 6-15. If you couldn't wrap your brain around how you were supposed to function with so few options here's a hint; you rely on other people in your team for utility spells.

The more levels and spells you give a sorcerer the more their power increases on an exponential level; you have more spells to apply more metamagics to. If the sorcerer had access to the same spell list and had as many spells known that a wizard could memorize we'd all be here discussing how useless wizards are because there's nothing they could seemingly do better than a sorcerer except for necromancy and preparation. The limited spells known is precisely what keeps sorcerers balanced. I'm already distraught over the idea of Favored Soul being a very real possibility in Xanathar's as it takes the Sorcerer and puts it into overdrive with access to cleric spells with metamagic. (Heightened Geas anyone?)





Now let's get back to the body of the original post here.

Why -I- think that Wild Magic is for lulz campaigns with friends only.

1) Needing Mage Armor sucks real bad for sorcerers.
As we've all discussed, limited spells known creates a real bad situation for Wild Mages. Either you skip mage armor and get ravaged by physical attacks lest you step out from full cover or suffer the slot tax of mage armor. Draconic sorcerers get to ignore this and have an essential +1 to their spells known which helps a whole lot especially in early levels. The lack of bonus hit points combined with this makes it that much harder to stay alive early on.

2) Wild Mages have trouble using Subtle Spell; the most imba broken sneak mage metamagic of all time, and this troubles me. It might be only a 1 in 20 chance to surge but trying to be a sneak mage can be rather hard when you have a 5% chance to blow your cover with each spell cast.

3) When a Wild Surge makes your team's life more difficult it all of a sudden stops being fun and funny.
Ever dropped a fireball on yourself at level 2? I have. It killed my wildmage and 2 people around me (automatic overkill damage is a biiiitch). While there are lots of fun and random things wild surge can do, there's an implementation hiccup in that you shouldn't be able to drop a level 3 spell accidentally at level 2. Or how about summoning a bunch of monsters that are good aligned? Have fun being an evil wild mage when you summon a Unicorn or a group of flumphs on top of yourself.

These are just my gripes with the subclass. They are also hella fun when your DM likes to surge you. One slight homebrew modification is that before level 5 when you are forced to roll on the surge table you can roll twice and have your DM decide which outcome to go with (which would hopefully stop early level TPK's with self cast fireballs).

I'm glad you like the subclass though! It's definitely unique. Once you get Bend Luck you'll probably start running out of Sorcery points a lot more :P

[Koren]

I agree with most of this. Wild magic is fun and funny, it makes for some awesome moments and hilarious rp. Tides of chaos is hilariously amazing (advantage on EVERYTHING!) And it alone makes me want to make a Rogue Sorcerer abusing Subtle spells. The added potential of it blowing your cover just adds conflict which I still love.

But in general it is dangerous to rely on them in the toughest of fights. Yes they are powerful, yes they help, but when every single roll counts and every single hit matters you still have that small chance of exploding, or turning the dragon invisible, or turning into a small potted plant. When they work in your favor the wild magic surges are the best thing in the game, and even if they're neutral it makes for the best moments. But in the end it's still a game of chance, more so than regular dice rolls.

[Anonymouswizard]

Its just embarrassing to call Sorcerer an arcane caster when they usually have garbage Arcana bonus, don't have Detect Magic/Identify/Comprehend Languages and all the other cool rituals that can solve magic problems. And when asked if you have spell X, the answer is usually 'no' because your spells known is utter ****.

I remember I once got into an argument with someone which class is better, Wizard or Sorcerer. Apparently Wizard's getting ritual casting is irrelevant because Sorcerers can take the Ritual Caster feat, while their greater access to various spells and ability to know niche spells is less important. I think we got to the point of 'divination spells as well as attack spells aren't an advantage because the Sage background lets you find information'.

Now, I've always argued that spontaneous casters should have access to more spells on any specific day than a prepared caster, whereas it's literally the opposite. Prepared casters get more spells known overall, and access to a greater choice of spells each day. Surely the ability to switch out your effective 'spells known' is worth it being a little bit smaller than the Sorcerer's or Bard's?

I'm excluding the Warlock from the spells known discussion because the value of spells known changes with slots/points per long rest and slots per short rest.

Now, there's an argument that Sorcerer's having a very limited number of spells is a choice to allow certain concepts. That would be fine, except that there's other Sorcerer concepts I can't make because you get so few spells known, and every subclass that would allow me to make those has lost their spells.

Getting two more spells known per spell level based on your subclass would be awesome, but it shouldn't be the only subclass available to the sorcerer. There should be a second type of subclass, 'you only know a few spells, but they're awesome spells'.

On the topic of the Wild Magic Sorcerer, the problem is this. I'm the GM, I have like 30 things to keep track of already, at minimum, I should not also have to decide if your class feature has to go off. Because I'll forget about it after the first combat and it will be 'never'. Also the table of effects should scale with spell slots, so you aren't having a TPK because the level 2 sorcerer dropped a fireball on the party when casting magic missile.

[EvilAnagram]

Wild Mage is absolutely undervalued. Tides of Chaos and Bend Luck allow incredible control over how reliable your spells will be, and they have a lot of synergy with Metamagic. Between Heighten and Bend Luck, high level Wild Mages can completely shut Dom the nastiest foe.

[KorvinStarmast]

Step 1: talk to your GM and ensure you will get a decent quantity of wild surge when Tides of Chaos is on cooldown. Step 2: have a really, really good time.

Hello, I'm metaridley18, and I've played D&D for 15 years. It took the 5E wild mage sorcerer to prove to me that white room theorycrafting is just BS. *golf clap* :smallsmile:


There are definitely design flaws with Jeremy Crawford's *ahem* 'unique' interpretation of Careful spell (one which most DM's have casually ignored in my experience). But when it's not given the crap-tier treatment it's a very worthwhile metamagic for completely swinging fights. Got a link to that?

It sounds like you just want to have access to every spell ever and haven't enacted the effort of making a spell list that complements your role and your teammates.
There's a lot of that going around on the internet.


(Heightened Geas anyone?)
Yeah. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser would like a quiet word ... (one of their early stories was them both being geas'd by their patrons ...)

Once you get Bend Luck you'll probably start running out of Sorcery points a lot more :P Heh, good point.

[TheUser]

Got a link to that?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Jeremy+crawford+careful+spell

(It's also in the advanced sorcery guide posted in my sig)

[xroads]

I love wild mages. I'd be playing one except someone else in my group beat me to it!

The only problem our group has is that our DM doesn't seem to understand wild mage surges and the tides of chaos. So he never has the player roll for surges. Which means the player rarely can make use of the tides.



Sorcerers are the worst class in 5e, by virtue of having no niche role. No adventuring party needs a sorcerer, because they bring nothing that other classes can't bring, and their spell casting is so limited.

I disagree with this. In my opinion, warlocks are the weakest class. Pretty much for the same reasons you listed (not bringing much and limited casting). Sorcerer's at least have the same spell slot array as every other full caster.

But to be fair, no one in my group has ever played a warlock. So my experience with them is limited.

[metaridley18]

On the topic of the Wild Magic Sorcerer, the problem is this. I'm the GM, I have like 30 things to keep track of already, at minimum, I should not also have to decide if your class feature has to go off. Because I'll forget about it after the first combat and it will be 'never'. Also the table of effects should scale with spell slots, so you aren't having a TPK because the level 2 sorcerer dropped a fireball on the party when casting magic missile.

Yeah, that's why my DM basically just yielded the reins to me. Roll a d20 after every non-cantrip. Surge if 1. Is Tides of Chaos on cooldown? Surge automatically. Granted we went to the extreme in surge occurrences, and we started at level 6 or something so missed the "fireball can TPK" problem, so maybe surges don't work so hot at low level.

At least with those rules, I have a modicum of control over surges, based on when I use ToC. That being said, I've only been screwed by the surge table a few times; it's mostly positive regardless.

Bend Luck is amazing, however.


I love wild mages. I'd be playing one except someone else in my group beat me to it!

The only problem our group has is that our DM doesn't seem to understand wild mage surges and the tides of chaos. So he never has the player roll for surges. Which means the player rarely can make use of the tides.



I disagree with this. In my opinion, warlocks are the weakest class. Pretty much for the same reasons you listed (not bringing much and limited casting). Sorcerer's at least have the same spell slot array as every other full caster.

But to be fair, no one in my group has ever played a warlock. So my experience with them is limited.

If you can't use Tides of Chaos, it does put a damper on the class quite a bit. Not terrible, but weakens it. Having advantage like, all the time, is half the reason I like the Wild Mage so much.

Warlocks are probably the hardest class to build. 5E is very forgiving in that you really have to actively try to build a character that can't contribute at all, but Warlocks have so many permanent choices in so many niches that you have to really, really try to make a truly excellent Warlock, and it's very easy to mess it up and just get a so-so one.

For better or for worse, that can be fixed by having a 20 Cha with Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast. Even if you *just* have that, you will be a useful Warlock in combat.

[xroads]

Yeah, that's why my DM basically just yielded the reins to me. Roll a d20 after every non-cantrip. Surge if 1. Is Tides of Chaos on cooldown? Surge automatically. Granted we went to the extreme in surge occurrences, and we started at level 6 or something so missed the "fireball can TPK" problem, so maybe surges don't work so hot at low level.


I like this idea. I may have to suggest this.

[EvilAnagram]

Honestly, I've seen a Fireball surge at level 1, and it didn't kill anyone. It's an overblown problem.

[Koren]

Honestly, I've seen a Fireball surge at level 1, and it didn't kill anyone. It's an overblown problem.

There are quite a few bad rolls that need to play out to make that TPK. Hit a Wild Magic Surge, roll to explode, roll to fail the save, roll high damage. The initial Surge roll isn't even really a bad roll either. But if any one of those rolls are in your favor it's potentially as huge a plus as exploding is a minus.

I think the real reason for the fear is the possibility of putting all that effort into starting the game, the story your DM may have set up, each member of your party, all of it can just be decimated in an instant. Not because of poor choices or a harsh DM or anything controllable. One single random action sets off the end of the game in minutes.

Wild Magic isn't for someone afraid of random chance.

[Anonymouswizard]

There are quite a few bad rolls that need to play out to make that TPK. Hit a Wild Magic Surge, roll to explode, roll to fail the save, roll high damage. The initial Surge roll isn't even really a bad roll either. But if any one of those rolls are in your favor it's potentially as huge a plus as exploding is a minus.

I think the real reason for the fear is the possibility of putting all that effort into starting the game, the story your DM may have set up, each member of your party, all of it can just be decimated in an instant. Not because of poor choices or a harsh DM or anything controllable. One single random action sets off the end of the game in minutes.

Wild Magic isn't for someone afraid of random chance.

I agree that the chance of a total party kill from wild magic are overblown, I just don't like that there's the possibility. I'm of the opinion that if wild magic is going to kill the party it should be via randomly applied buffs and debuffs that don't just cause an explosion. It's literally the one bit of the Wild Magic table I don't like.

[Koren]

I agree that the chance of a total party kill from wild magic are overblown, I just don't like that there's the possibility. I'm of the opinion that if wild magic is going to kill the party it should be via randomly applied buffs and debuffs that don't just cause an explosion. It's literally the one bit of the Wild Magic table I don't like.

I respect that. Wild Magic is chaotic in nature both in fluff and mechanically, not everyone will like that.

The problem arises when people think that one magic surge outcome makes the whole subclass bad. (Getting myself on topic like a boss XD)

[metaridley18]

I respect that. Wild Magic is chaotic in nature both in fluff and mechanically, not everyone will like that.

The problem arises when people think that one magic surge outcome makes the whole subclass bad. (Getting myself on topic like a boss XD)

And what luck taketh away, luck giveth back. You allow for something like in the last fight we were in, when I cast Sunbeam, surged, rolled a 88- "Cast Fly on a random target" and then rolled myself. Suddenly I'm a flying laser beam death platform in a fight with only melee fighters.

Yes, if I were a dragon mage I'd have perma flight...in 3 levels. For now, I'll take the luck roll. As a different example, I also rolled the Fireball when I was surrounded by enemies and targeted myself with a Fireball in a desperation move...so it was a doubly strong Fireball thanks to surges, and I was resistant to magic, so it was desirable. The surge table is actually mostly a positive. You just have to trust in the rolls, and it is quite fun if you can cede control and relax.

I would agree that it's not for a super serious table.

[TheUser]

And what luck taketh away, luck giveth back. You allow for something like in the last fight we were in, when I cast Sunbeam, surged, rolled a 88- "Cast Fly on a random target" and then rolled myself. Suddenly I'm a flying laser beam death platform in a fight with only melee fighters.

Yes, if I were a dragon mage I'd have perma flight...in 3 levels. For now, I'll take the luck roll. As a different example, I also rolled the Fireball when I was surrounded by enemies and targeted myself with a Fireball in a desperation move...so it was a doubly strong Fireball thanks to surges, and I was resistance to magic, so it was desirable. The surge table is actually mostly a positive. You just have to trust in the rolls, and it is quite fun if you can cede control and relax.

I would agree that it's not for a super serious table.

Your newly surged fly spell should have broken your concentration on sunbeam. You technically are the one casting it and are the one concentrating on it which means it now uses up your concentration....so buh bye sunbeam.

But thankfully your group seems to have a poor grasp of the proper game mechanics and you got to abuse the ignorance of the table ;)

[Koren]

Your newly surged fly spell should have broken your concentration on sunbeam. You technically are the one casting it and are the one concentrating on it which means it now uses up your concentration....so buh bye sunbeam.

But thankfully your group seems to have a poor grasp of the proper game mechanics and you got to abuse the ignorance of the table ;)

Actually there was an errata in October 2016...


If a Wild Magic effect is a spell, it’s too wild to be affected by Metamagic. If it normally requires concentration, it doesn’t require concentration in this case; the spell lasts for its full duration.

No concentration used so he's fine.

[metaridley18]

Your newly surged fly spell should have broken your concentration on sunbeam. You technically are the one casting it and are the one concentrating on it which means it now uses up your concentration....so buh bye sunbeam.

But thankfully your group seems to have a poor grasp of the proper game mechanics and you got to abuse the ignorance of the table ;)

Thanks for the insult. I'd check the errata on Wild Magic Surge, which explicitly clarifies this isn't the case. Maybe be less condescending when you don't know the rules.

Edit: Ninja'd

[TheUser]

Actually there was an errata in October 2016...



No concentration used so he's fine.

Sweet! Way better for WMS. Definitely a good errata I missed.

[erok0809]

I love the wild mage, but I had a fun DM and table. They all really enjoyed the random aspect of it, and so the DM made it so that any time I could roll on the table, I would. My normal combat was to use Tides of Chaos to get advantage on initiative (it's a Dex check, so it works), then start out with an appropriate spell and roll on the table, then use a fire bolt or other cantrip with Tides of Chaos for advantage to reload for the next spell. If I needed to, I could quicken that first spell, then use a cantrip to reload to get another shot on the table next turn. It was tons of fun, and led to some of the best moments in that campaign, although I did blow through my spells a lot faster than I should have, were I trying to play it smarter. That wasn't the point though, it was just fun.

[CursedRhubarb]

The door look fun, but rolling a 49-50 can be a hindrance with not being able to speak. No verbal spells can be cast, but having Subtle Spell Metamagic gets around it nicely.

[Jerrykhor]

Just want to add on to how lulz the Wild Mage is. Even if the Surge Fireball didn't kill anyone, it would be very meta for the sorcerer to be allowed to continue travelling with the party. It makes more sense for the party to promptly kick out the sorcerer for being a walking unpredictable bomb. Not really bashing since i play one myself, but its one of those goofy things in dnd.

[Koren]

Just want to add on to how lulz the Wild Mage is. Even if the Surge Fireball didn't kill anyone, it would be very meta for the sorcerer to be allowed to continue travelling with the party. It makes more sense for the party to promptly kick out the sorcerer for being a walking unpredictable bomb. Not really bashing since i play one myself, but its one of those goofy things in dnd.

While my sorceress didn't explode or kill anyone with her Wild Surges, whenever questioned with what she could do or anything similar she would always respond with "sometimes I blow up"

Between that and another party member freaking out because "and now our guys are just randomly jumping across town!" Wild Magic makes for hilarious character interaction.

[Jerrykhor]

I love wild mages. I'd be playing one except someone else in my group beat me to it!

The only problem our group has is that our DM doesn't seem to understand wild mage surges and the tides of chaos. So he never has the player roll for surges. Which means the player rarely can make use of the tides.



I disagree with this. In my opinion, warlocks are the weakest class. Pretty much for the same reasons you listed (not bringing much and limited casting). Sorcerer's at least have the same spell slot array as every other full caster.

But to be fair, no one in my group has ever played a warlock. So my experience with them is limited.While its true that warlocks have the same amount of spells known as sorcerer, they have Invocations, some of them which are at will. Tomelock can also poach cantrips and rituals from other classes, and each of them can be from different classes, so they have that going for them.

Every time i recall the times i play a warlock, i wish i had more spell slots. Short rests are hard to come by sometimes. But it was memorable due to poaching Vicious Mockery and having some of the sickest burns in the campaign. Also, surprising the whole table when my normally selfish and egomania warlock cast Spare the Dying on a dying member.

[Theodoxus]

As a DM, the one Wild sorc I ran complained that I wasn't letting Tides happen often enough. He wanted advantage more often. For DMs, it's a crap ability. I'm not a fan of tracking player resources. That's their job - but if they're reminding me every time they cast a spell that they have Surge available, nudge nudge, wink wink - it gets annoying really quickly.

It got to the point that every time the sorc used ToC, the next cast was surged - just so he had to deal with the BS consequences. It ruined the class for everyone at the table... but I'm ok with that. I'll never play a sorc, and if I never have to run another one, it'll be perfectly ok with me.

[Zene]

Love my wild mage. So much fun. Now if only I can keep her from de-aging any further, so I can actually keep playing her (she's already down to an apparent age of 13)

[Jerrykhor]

Love my wild mage. So much fun. Now if only I can keep her from de-aging any further, so I can actually keep playing her (she's already down to an apparent age of 13)

Consider yourself lucky, my sorceress got de-aged until she was 6 years old! From a young woman to a child. My DM ruled that my size is now small, and my speed is 25ft. If she get de-aged anymore, she might become a baby lol.

[Chugger]

Does a Halfling Sorc get to reroll the ones that might trigger Wild?

A 20 then a 20 would trigger.

What about Lucky Feat? Someone with Divination or a dip in wiz to get div?

[Zalabim]

To answer Chugger's question (which is not uncommon) the wild surge roll is not an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw.


I love the wild mage, but I had a fun DM and table. They all really enjoyed the random aspect of it, and so the DM made it so that any time I could roll on the table, I would. My normal combat was to use Tides of Chaos to get advantage on initiative (it's a Dex check, so it works), then start out with an appropriate spell and roll on the table, then use a fire bolt or other cantrip with Tides of Chaos for advantage to reload for the next spell. If I needed to, I could quicken that first spell, then use a cantrip to reload to get another shot on the table next turn. It was tons of fun, and led to some of the best moments in that campaign, although I did blow through my spells a lot faster than I should have, were I trying to play it smarter. That wasn't the point though, it was just fun.
Have you ever cast shield to block magic missiles and rolled a surge to cast magic missiles? [/hotfuzz]

Just want to add on to how lulz the Wild Mage is. Even if the Surge Fireball didn't kill anyone, it would be very meta for the sorcerer to be allowed to continue travelling with the party. It makes more sense for the party to promptly kick out the sorcerer for being a walking unpredictable bomb. Not really bashing since i play one myself, but its one of those goofy things in dnd.
While some other parties might have a race to see who can have an explosive accident first, the alchemist, the brewer, or the wild mage. Other parties might think they're doing good by preventing the mage from accidentally harming someone innocent. In any case, I guess it's a good thing they've got high charisma.

As a DM, the one Wild sorc I ran complained that I wasn't letting Tides happen often enough. He wanted advantage more often. For DMs, it's a crap ability. I'm not a fan of tracking player resources. That's their job - but if they're reminding me every time they cast a spell that they have Surge available, nudge nudge, wink wink - it gets annoying really quickly.

It got to the point that every time the sorc used ToC, the next cast was surged - just so he had to deal with the BS consequences. It ruined the class for everyone at the table... but I'm ok with that. I'll never play a sorc, and if I never have to run another one, it'll be perfectly ok with me.
Sounds like the player got what he wanted after all.

[Chugger]

Thanks. I figured as much. So there's no escaping it if it's meant to be! Hah.

[Tanarii]

It got to the point that every time the sorc used ToC, the next cast was surged - just so he had to deal with the BS consequences. It ruined the class for everyone at the table... but I'm ok with that. I'll never play a sorc, and if I never have to run another one, it'll be perfectly ok with me.
So the player ended up getting the best version of Tides of Chaos. How did that end up ruining the class for everyone at the table?

Technically second best. Best would be if the DM tells the players 'you pick if there's a surge'. But after letting players go with surge every time Tides has been used, I can tell you that the vast majority will choose a surge to refresh Tides every single time. With a possible exception of using Subtle Spell to be sneaky.

[Theodoxus]

How did that end up ruining the class for everyone at the table?

Well, after the 3 pbaoe fireballs, the annoyed unicorn, the pink bubbles and an ill-timed confusion that led to 3 party members being knocked out, most of the non-sorcerer players were fed up. When the sorcerer turned bright blue, he was almost there... he decided he pointedly didn't like being a wand of wonder any more. Reading the table, you'd think happy things would happen... apparently, our table was cursed, as he rolled all negative effects... but just trying harder the next opportunity. It was like watching a craps player chase a losing streak. It was sad.

[Zalabim]

Well, after the 3 pbaoe fireballs, the annoyed unicorn, the pink bubbles and an ill-timed confusion that led to 3 party members being knocked out, most of the non-sorcerer players were fed up. When the sorcerer turned bright blue, he was almost there... he decided he pointedly didn't like being a wand of wonder any more. Reading the table, you'd think happy things would happen... apparently, our table was cursed, as he rolled all negative effects... but just trying harder the next opportunity. It was like watching a craps player chase a losing streak. It was sad.

I think the wild mage player in my group has rolled a surge three times (level 1-5) at least the only results I know of have been resistance to damage and the shower of butterflies twice.

[EvilAnagram]

Well, after the 3 pbaoe fireballs, the annoyed unicorn, the pink bubbles and an ill-timed confusion that led to 3 party members being knocked out, most of the non-sorcerer players were fed up. When the sorcerer turned bright blue, he was almost there... he decided he pointedly didn't like being a wand of wonder any more. Reading the table, you'd think happy things would happen... apparently, our table was cursed, as he rolled all negative effects... but just trying harder the next opportunity. It was like watching a craps player chase a losing streak. It was sad.

Why would you purposefully make the unicorn annoyed? That seems like a reasonable place to provide something silly or helpful (which would have been received well at your table), and instead you chose to arbitrarily make it hostile?

[Tanarii]

Well, after the 3 pbaoe fireballs, the annoyed unicorn, the pink bubbles and an ill-timed confusion that led to 3 party members being knocked out, most of the non-sorcerer players were fed up. When the sorcerer turned bright blue, he was almost there... he decided he pointedly didn't like being a wand of wonder any more. Reading the table, you'd think happy things would happen... apparently, our table was cursed, as he rolled all negative effects... but just trying harder the next opportunity. It was like watching a craps player chase a losing streak. It was sad.oh yeah, that's totally different from what I got from your original post. The way you worded it made me think Tides of Chaos getting refreshed a lot, making the Wild Sorc awesome, was some kind of problem.

Yes, Wild Surges are a crap shoot. But IiRC they're 2/3 beneficial or neutral, and 1/3 kinda sucky to bad. Since I've switched to Tides always Surges (barring occasionally when trying to do something Subtle), Wild Sorcs look forward to surges. Although yes, any group with one tends to hold its breath a bit when they cast a spell. :smallamused:

In a super tactical, highly optimized chars, multipleXDeadly battles type game, a Wild Sorc would definitely be a burden. Because in those kind of games RNG is the biggest enemy.

[Zene]

For DMs, it's a crap ability. I'm not a fan of tracking player resources. That's their job - but if they're reminding me every time they cast a spell that they have Surge available, nudge nudge, wink wink - it gets annoying really quickly.


Yeah the part where the DM decides every dang cast whether the surge should be rolled... that's annoying. Poor design by WotC IMO. In my experience, either:
A) the DM likes surges (in which case we set a rule that every cast I roll the D20, and every time Tides is out I roll on the surge table, so he doesn't need to say it every time and I don't need to remind him every time) --note, when I DM I fall into this category
or
B) the DM doesn't like surges (in which case we say the surge never happens, or only happens on a d20 roll of 1 even if Tides is out; again, the DM doesn't need to make the decision every time, and I don't need to remind him)

So either choice reduces decision fatigue. That said, even in option A, the Wild Sorc player needs to have his/her dice ready, and the surge table ready, to avoid slowing down play; and really should understand some of the basics of surging (like it's better to stand near the enemy, or at least 30' away from friends, when casting) to avoid annoying other players. Also, one thing I've found that works amazingly well, is if the WM has a way of suppressing surges. In my case, my WM is a sorcadin, so I can go melee cantrips (quickened/twinned) and smites and still put out massive damage without fear of surges. I've seen others that have magic items that can cast (like Staves of Power/Frost/Fire/Swarming Insects etc), which again wouldn't trigger surges. When the fight is too crucial to introduce additional RNG, just switch the style so no surges come.

[alchahest]

Amazingly lucky that the level 1 fireball didn't kill anyone. on average rolls, even those that make their saves are taking 14 damage, which is enough to put down any first level character that isn't a Barbarian/doesn't have a further method of mitigating the damage.

It doesn't take a lot to make a fireball kill a level 1 party, it actually requires people to make their saves, and to have rolled less than average on the damage. This is with max HP at level 1, as well. (highest bonus a stat can start with is +3, anything but a barbarian will cap at 14 HP, and only if they're a hill dwarf. which is exactly the damage of an average fireball when save is made. ) I suppose an argument could be made for the toughness feat as well, for variant humans.

[EvilAnagram]

Amazingly lucky that the level 1 fireball didn't kill anyone. on average rolls, even those that make their saves are taking 14 damage, which is enough to put down any first level character that isn't a Barbarian/doesn't have a further method of mitigating the damage.
In my case, the sorcerer was standing apart to snipe at orcs while the rest of us held them back. He made his save and fell unconscious. It wasn't all that lucky since lots of us were melee-focused, and those that weren't spread out to attack from different angles. We basically didn't play any differently than we otherwise would have, and no one died.

[alchahest]

my response was mainly to the commenter that had said it would have to be all bad rolls to kill a party - certainly it's an entirely different story if the sorc is just not near anyone!

[EvilAnagram]

my response was mainly to the commenter that had said it would have to be all bad rolls to kill a party - certainly it's an entirely different story if the sorc is just not near anyone!

I mean, there still have to be a lot of bad situations coming together at once. You have to roll the 1, roll the worst possible result on the Wild Surge table, be grouped together, fail the saving throws, and take high enough damage for anyone to die outright. Even with the first two steps, that's a .1% chance, and it gets lower and lower at each step. Worrying about that happening on one of the two spells you cast at first level is silly.

[alchahest]

Sure. I'm responding to the you saying that you saw a fireball surge at level one, you set the point of conversation at "fireball surge at level 1". I'm just saying if you do get a fireball surge at level one, which is something you've actually witnessed, it actually requires a lot of luck to not kill anyone. on average rolls, anyone making their save is KO'd, and anyone failing is killed. so you'd need below average rolls. significantly below average if you're not all D10 classes with +3 con mods.

Is it very impropable to have a fireball surge? yeah! But it was said that a fireball surge is unlikely to kill anyone, and I was just saying it's the opposite.

[Tanarii]

The odds of a fireball going off at level one are about 4%, since you'll probably cast 2 surge triggering spells in your first adventuring day, after which you're level 2. IMO that's clearly too high, but still incredibly low. Quick house rule to 'fix' Fireball wild surges: change it to shatter when triggered by a level 1 or 2 slot.

I went through the Wild Surge table. By my count there are:
24 'Good' results
10 'Neutral' or 'Irritating' results
8 'Wild' results (may be Good or Bad)
8 'Bad' results

(Several of the bad ones might actually be good if you're surrounded by enemies. But as a general rule, they're probably gonna be bad for the party, and definitely for the sorcerer.)

That's way better ratio of good to bad than I thought.

[metaridley18]

That's way better ratio of good to bad than I thought.

Pretty much. I think that's one of those things that is really highlighted by playing the class....few people are going to sit down and do the math on how good surges are.

The root is that people see the cessation of control and knee-jerk into "oh jeeze, that's bad" territory. But in my group, we have surges turned up to maximum (roll d20 on every 1+ spell and surge on a 1, surge automatically if Tides of Chaos is down) and we still only see 1-2 surges during a very, very difficult fight. We will see less during easier fights. The Tides of Chaos thing is a button in my control, do I want to gain auto-advantage at the risk of pushing my luck.

What you see as you play a wild mage is that mostly things will go well, and occasionally you'll hit something bad, but only very, very rarely will it be something that you can't overcome.

One other thing that some one mentioned earlier was the reliance on Mage Armor for a wild mage. Truthfully, if I'm taking actual hits, something has gone terribly wrong. I don't want to be in melee or targeted by ranged folks, so I do everything I can to avoid taking damage.

Assuming a pretty decent mage Dex of 14, the difference between AC 15 and AC 12 is not that much once you hit level 6 or 7. Sure, it's a 15% difference—but if you're fighting someone with a +9 to hit, in the first case they'll hit on a 6+, in the second they'll hit on a 3+. I don't want to risk that attack regardless.

So you're honestly better off spending your resources avoiding getting targeted than learning Mage Armor—Invisibility, Walls of X, Fog Clouds, just making yourself look wimpy (who are the baddies gonna target in a caravan, the guy in traveler's clothes with no weapons who doesn't seem to be doing anything (Subtle spellcasting), or the big beefy warriors that are doing tons of damage), and the good 'ol chest high wall shooter tactic of popping up to cast a spell and then hitting the deck behind a box or a wall.

At lower levels, take Mage Armor, certainly. But retrain that crap right out once you hit the point where it's starting to impact your ability to contribute well. As a level 11 Wild Mage, my only first level spell known is Disguise Self—all other slots are what I like to call "Sorcery Points in Reserve".

[KorvinStarmast]

Quick house rule to 'fix' Fireball wild surges: change it to shatter when triggered by a level 1 or 2 slot. Or have shatter go off at a spell level linked to the Player Character's level? I love your idea.

Then again, there goes my crystal stemware collection every time it happens. :smalleek:

[EvilAnagram]

Or have shatter go off at a spell level linked to the Player Character's level? I love your idea.

Then again, there goes my crystal stemware collection every time it happens. :smalleek:

Another reason for that is that Shatter is 1: loud and 2: destructive to inanimate objects, which means even at higher levels it should be providing your character with some problems when you're trying to cast Suggestion on a shopkeep.

[Koren]

trying to cast Suggestion on a shopkeep.

"Hey, you should sell me that magic amulet for half price..." *Every bit of glass in the shop simply explodes*

"... Yeah, no, you're paying for damages."

[Chugger]

Okay if Wild Magic is so bad, how often is it popping up? The phb says, iirc, that the DM "can" ask you to make a surge check. He/she doesn't have to by that reading, every time you cast a spell - they "can".

Is it discussed anywhere by the officials as to how often this should be? Or is it left entirely up to DM discretion?

Also, since there are many "get out of jail free card" options for other things (Halflings reroll ones, Lucky feat, Diviner ability - all sorts of magic items that protect you from various things) why is there nothing that lets the wild sorc get out of a bad roll? Of course there's nothing stopping a DM from inventing such a thing (unless you're AL).

Anyway, it seems to me there needs to be some guidance on how often the DM should ask for this roll.

If the sorc uses his/her movement phase to get over 15' away from the party (or w/e the widest nasty cast on self spell's radius is) and then uses action to cast, the party is mostly safe. The exception would be the few rolls where a random effect hits random creature w/in 60'. Oh, and fighting inside a building or a restricted cavern or stuff like that - then ... well, sorc can always firebolt, right? Use a magic missile wand?

I get that people have had bad experiences. I'm wondering if the DMs presiding over these bad experiences have made wise choices. At the end of the day, wild may be only for players/parties who get bored easily and don't mind a little spice in their gaming. Not for the bland at heart.

[alchahest]

It comes up because people want it to be good and fun, but people have problems keeping it good and fun. Not everyone, some people have DMs who are invested in keeping track of a single character's completely DM-dependant class feature, but it's common enough that people want to fix it or have some other method of working the feature.

[SharkForce]

my preferred solution to the fireball problem is simply to make an aoe that deals force damage in a radius 5' times the level of the triggering spell slot, for 1d8 damage per level of the spell slot. (in some situations, like you were casting a damaging spell, i might adjust the damage to be the type the triggering spell is dealing instead. or not. i mean, it's wild magic).

level 1 TPK still possible. but improbable unless you were already pretty low on health.

i also think wild mages should have a special ability called nahal's reckless dweomer that lets them expend a spell slot, choose one number per level of the spell slot sacrificed (all numbers must be adjacent), and if that number comes up they can cast a chosen sorcerer spell. if not, the only effect is a wild surge (though since you blocked out a bunch of numbers, you can guarantee certain results won't happen). i'd probably bump one of the low level abilities to replace that lame duck of an 18th level ability so that there's room at lower levels for this.

(also, i'd probably rule that subtle spell or spending 1 SP on a spell can suppress wild surge chance if spent before determining if the wild surge happens on a spell if the player chooses to do so).

[Jerrykhor]

(also, i'd probably rule that subtle spell or spending 1 SP on a spell can suppress wild surge chance if spent before determining if the wild surge happens on a spell if the player chooses to do so).

So its like holding in a (magical) fart?

[Tanarii]

Pretty much. I think that's one of those things that is really highlighted by playing the class....few people are going to sit down and do the math on how good surges are. Id originally thought it was more bad than good. Then after a thread on how often DMs should surge to renew Tides, I had the impression it was about even good, neutral, bad. I mean, I subconsciously knew it wasn't because of seeing how often good results came up, but I'd never counted it up before now.


The root is that people see the cessation of control and knee-jerk into "oh jeeze, that's bad" territory. But in my group, we have surges turned up to maximum (roll d20 on every 1+ spell and surge on a 1, surge automatically if Tides of Chaos is down) and we still only see 1-2 surges during a very, very difficult fight. We will see less during easier fights. The Tides of Chaos thing is a button in my control, do I want to gain auto-advantage at the risk of pushing my luck. Thats a good point. I mostly have surges to renew tides happen in combat. Largely because Sorcs IMC cast the majority of their spells there, and are usually trying to do something more subtle (with or without the meta magic) out of combat. Thinking about it, my standard seems to really be "would ANY surge be a pain in the ass for the player right now?"

And you're right, it's definitely not 'every combat spell renews Tides'. Because Sorcs don't use Tides every round of combat. The first spell cast almost always triggers a surge, from having used Tides on an ability check out of combat. If they Quicken, they'll often use a cantrip with Tides. If the spell cast was Chromatic Orb, they'll Tides. Sometimes a check or save happens in that first round. But barring those, often they haven't used it before a second spell is cast in the second round. (My arcane caster players are prone to dumping spells they've 'allocated' for a combat in the first few rounds of combat.)

Honestly, the ability should just have been Players choice on if it should trigger a surge. Not DMs.

[Dimers]

A completely different reason to like the Wild Mage:

Bounded accuracy means it's pretty difficult to make a character reliably good at something. If the PC is mostly subject to whims of Fortune anyway, why not turn it up to 11? Embrace the Laughing God! You have a great excuse for unexpected failures and a suave explanation for unexpected successes.

[HolyDraconus]

Sorcerer as a whole is bad in 5e for 4 reasons.
1. Bard is now a full caster.
2. Warlock, with short rests, has more spells.
3. The limitations of previous editions are still in effect for it, when 80% of their reasoning for being there is gone.
4. It, and warlock should of been merged and made a subclass of one or the other. Personally, I don't care which way it goes with that. As is, they step on each other's toes anyway, while the bard laughs maniacally about being the best cha caster (currently) without multiclass.
Bonus. Being bad doesn't mean you can't have fun with it. See 3e vanilla fighter or Complete Warrior Samurai.

[Safety Sword]

Wild magic sorcery: For those times where your greatest value to your party is as a potted plant.

[SharkForce]

Sorcerer as a whole is bad in 5e for 4 reasons.
1. Bard is now a full caster.
2. Warlock, with short rests, has more spells.
3. The limitations of previous editions are still in effect for it, when 80% of their reasoning for being there is gone.
4. It, and warlock should of been merged and made a subclass of one or the other. Personally, I don't care which way it goes with that. As is, they step on each other's toes anyway, while the bard laughs maniacally about being the best cha caster (currently) without multiclass.
Bonus. Being bad doesn't mean you can't have fun with it. See 3e vanilla fighter or Complete Warrior Samurai.

eh, sorcerer isn't that bad. i'm certainly not remotely convinced it is the most well-designed class... not by a long shot. but we shouldn't act like it's, say, a fighter in a 3.x game. it has problems, for sure, but it certainly isn't terrible.

[Chugger]

So its like holding in a (magical) fart?

That made me laugh.

Seriously, someone please tell me how often a DM "should" (loaded word, I know) make a sorc roll for wild magic if the phb says the DM "can" ask the sorc to make the roll. Or is that really such a wide-open "who knows / shrug) that there simply is no answer? Thanks.

[Zene]

Sorcerer as a whole is bad in 5e for 4 reasons.
1. Bard is now a full caster.
2. Warlock, with short rests, has more spells.
3. The limitations of previous editions are still in effect for it, when 80% of their reasoning for being there is gone.
4. It, and warlock should of been merged and made a subclass of one or the other. Personally, I don't care which way it goes with that. As is, they step on each other's toes anyway, while the bard laughs maniacally about being the best cha caster (currently) without multiclass.
Bonus. Being bad doesn't mean you can't have fun with it. See 3e vanilla fighter or Complete Warrior Samurai.

I have two sorcerer characters. One draconic (tier 4) and one wild (tier 3). They both run laps around every bard I've ever played with. Like not even close. Maybe it's just been luck? I'm starting my first bard character now, so I guess I will see.

[Zene]

That made me laugh.

Seriously, someone please tell me how often a DM "should" (loaded word, I know) make a sorc roll for wild magic if the phb says the DM "can" ask the sorc to make the roll. Or is that really such a wide-open "who knows / shrug) that there simply is no answer? Thanks.

In general, a player choosing to play a wild mage does so because they like surges. So if it's all the same to you, surge as often as the rules allow (so 5% on a mormal cast, 100% when Tides is out). If it seems to be slowing/disrupting the game, then slow it down a bit; maybe only ask for the roll every other time.

If the player doesn't like surges --or you don't-- then just never ask for the roll. Note, though, that never letting Tides recharge means that Wild Sorcs will be underpowered relative to other casters.

[Dimers]

Or is that really such a wide-open "who knows / shrug) that there simply is no answer?

5e's strength and weakness, right there. Rulings, not rules.

[Chugger]

5e's strength and weakness, right there. Rulings, not rules.

Nicely said (but I still like 5e overall).

[Chugger]

In general, a player choosing to play a wild mage does so because they like surges. So if it's all the same to you, surge as often as the rules allow (so 5% on a mormal cast, 100% when Tides is out). If it seems to be slowing/disrupting the game, then slow it down a bit; maybe only ask for the roll every other time.

If the player doesn't like surges --or you don't-- then just never ask for the roll. Note, though, that never letting Tides recharge means that Wild Sorcs will be underpowered relative to other casters.

So ... the player can forget to remind the DM and if the player never reminds the DM ... how often should the DM have them roll when they're casting?

I get that most wild ones want to surge, but what about a reluctant wild sorc who really doesn't want to and is terrified of it (but casts anyway - can't help it)?

In other words if it's mostly up to the DM to decide, how often do you think should the sorc surg-check? Or is there literally no guidance on this?

[Citan]

That made me laugh.

Seriously, someone please tell me how often a DM "should" (loaded word, I know) make a sorc roll for wild magic if the phb says the DM "can" ask the sorc to make the roll. Or is that really such a wide-open "who knows / shrug) that there simply is no answer? Thanks.
Hi!
It's difficult to give a definite answer, so I'll just say how I would go with such a character in the party.

1. If all players are fan of random events, use the suggested rules of others (roll systematically).
2. Otherwise, my golden rule would be...
- Whenever Surge has no chance of TPK and may provide something changing the shape of the encounter...
- Or on the contrary if players are steamrolling or pacing themselve with no expectation (= getting bored).
- At least once every session (not necessarily every day).

Like all "random" things, you have to consider it as one more tool you can use to create fun situations, athough the lack of control may be a bit irritating a few times because the effect is contrary to your objective (help/surprise/"retribute" players).

As for Wild Magic Sorcerers' shortcomings...
- AC: for a pure Mage Sorcerer, it's indeed problematic, a true Mage Armor tax. As long as multiclassing or feats are allowed, there really is no problem.
- Fireball occurence: pure Sorcerer just has to grip his teeths. With optional rules, if you are really *that* afraid, grab Absorb Elements for that once bad luck of the day, or multiclass into something that provides other buffs... Sure it is some significant investment, but one that also brings many other goodies.

[TheUser]

So ... the player can forget to remind the DM and if the player never reminds the DM ... how often should the DM have them roll when they're casting?

I get that most wild ones want to surge, but what about a reluctant wild sorc who really doesn't want to and is terrified of it (but casts anyway - can't help it)?

In other words if it's mostly up to the DM to decide, how often do you think should the sorc surg-check? Or is there literally no guidance on this?

DM's primary goal is to elicit fun.

If the table seems to love surges, then by all means, surge it up.

If the table is burnt out with surge fatigue or wants the combat resolved already then don't.

If the player is trying to be sneaky then you should throw it in their face and get them to surge when it's most inopportune because ****'em right? :P (this is a joke).

DM's are (hopefully) going to feel out if the table is a little sick and tired of wild surges and probably tone it down if the group is fed up.

[Zene]

So ... the player can forget to remind the DM and if the player never reminds the DM ... how often should the DM have them roll when they're casting?

I get that most wild ones want to surge, but what about a reluctant wild sorc who really doesn't want to and is terrified of it (but casts anyway - can't help it)?

In other words if it's mostly up to the DM to decide, how often do you think should the sorc surg-check? Or is there literally no guidance on this?

Sorry, should have been more clear. I was answering that exact question. I was saying what the DM should do. In short, the DM should: Maximize it if the player likes it (and this should be the default); pull back a little if it's disruptive or slowing; and minimize it if the player dislikes it, or the DM him/herself dislikes it.

[Chugger]

Sorry, should have been more clear. I was answering that exact question. I was saying what the DM should do. In short, the DM should: Maximize it if the player likes it (and this should be the default); pull back a little if it's disruptive or slowing; and minimize it if the player dislikes it, or the DM him/herself dislikes it.

Thanks! Understood.