The Lunoth: Moth Folk (I know she's a bug, but she's so cute and fluffy!)[PEACH]

[bunnynoah]

I haven't seen an anthropomorphic Moth race for 5E yet, so I'll make one for you guys. (I'll do something similar for the Thri-Kreen)

https://1d4chan.org/images/1/16/Mothkin_6.jpg


Ability Score Increase. Your Wisdom score increases by 2 and your Dexterity score increases by 1.
Age. Lunoth reach relative maturity at 13 years. Before then, they are born as humanoid larvae that must constantly eat in order to have a proper metamorphosis. At age 9, they cocoon for 4 years before releasing as full-grown Lunoth at 13 years. A Lunoth may live as long as any human can.
Alignment. Lunoth almost always strive to be Good, if not Neutral. They are never Evil, and have no preference between Law and Chaos.
Size. Male Lunoth stand anywhere between 4 and 5 feet and weigh between 100 to 150 pounds. Female Lunoth stand anywhere between 5 and 6 feet and weigh between 120 and 180 pounds. Your size is Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.
Four-Armed. You have four arms. You gain no distinct advantage in combat to your two handed allies, but you can carry or preform tasks whilst your primary hands are being used.
Sonic Hearing. Your antennae function also ultra-sensitive ears. You can pick up the slightest noise 120 feet around you and have advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks when it is quiet. You have a disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks if it is currently noisy.
Language. You can speak, read and write Common and Sylvan.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I've been thinking for a while that moth-people might be a cool PC race, so thanks for writing them!

I'm wondering though, why they get +2 Charisma. I can't see where that comes from. Also the weapon proficiencies... is that a reference to something?

Overall, I'd say the balance is acceptable, provided you add the standard flight clauses - 1) needs a Large space to unfurl wings and 2) can't fly in heavy armour.

Finally, your image doesn't show unless I copy the URL into my browser, for some reason... wait, why does she have a tail? :smallconfused: Edit: hmm, it seems to be working now. Weird.

[bunnynoah]

I've been thinking for a while that moth-people might be a cool PC race, so thanks for writing them!

I'm wondering though, why they get +2 Charisma. I can't see where that comes from. Also the weapon proficiencies... is that a reference to something?

Overall, I'd say the balance is acceptable, provided you add the standard flight clauses - 1) needs a Large space to unfurl wings and 2) can't fly in heavy armour.

Finally, your image doesn't show unless I copy the URL into my browser, for some reason... wait, why does she have a tail? :smallconfused: Edit: hmm, it seems to be working now. Weird.

She does have a tail, doesn't she? I'll change that to one with a thorax.

Added the Wings and Armor clauses to the flight speed.

The weapons are based off of the Japanese equivalents (i.e. Longsword:Katana, Glaive:Naginata) I didn't include the fluff about their culture so they could be used in other settings. (As you could tell, however, it's Japanese/Oriental based)

I didn't know what to put for the ABI. What would you suggest otherwise?

[Lalliman]

I didn't know what to put for the ABI. What would you suggest otherwise?
Which classes do you imagine they're most likely to choose? Give them whichever bonuses support those classes.

Since they're oriental-themed, a wisdom bonus might be appropriate, since that steers them towards monk. (Then again, the monk class is mostly Chinese in origin, not Japanese.)

[bunnynoah]

Which classes do you imagine they're most likely to choose? Give them whichever bonuses support those classes.

Since they're oriental-themed, a wisdom bonus might be appropriate, since that steers them towards monk. (Then again, the monk class is mostly Chinese in origin, not Japanese.)

Fair point. I'll change it to that then.

[JBPuffin]

Did you end up changing the image? I'm curious what the other one looked like.

Also, meet my new Lunoth Barbarian, wielding a greataxe, battleaxe, and shield. They shall be patted and petted and named George.

[bunnynoah]

Did you end up changing the image? I'm curious what the other one looked like.

Also, meet my new Lunoth Barbarian, wielding a greataxe, battleaxe, and shield. They shall be patted and petted and named George.

This is the old image:
http://t.facdn.net/[email protected]

I didn't notice the tail (Which Lunoth don't have) So I changed it.

[JBPuffin]

This is the old image:
http://t.facdn.net/[email protected]

I didn't notice the tail (Which Lunoth don't have) So I changed it.

Not working for me - 403 error. Also, I might be able to get rid of the tail for you...and change the color scheme, if desired/I get bored.

[bunnynoah]

Not working for me - 403 error. Also, I might be able to get rid of the tail for you...and change the color scheme, if desired/I get bored.

http://t.facdn.net/[email protected] Will this work?

[JBPuffin]

http://t.facdn.net/[email protected] Will this work?

Nope. Tried to do that myself when the image didn't auto-show on your post, and after second attempt still not working.

[bunnynoah]

Nope. Tried to do that myself when the image didn't auto-show on your post, and after second attempt still not working.

Well then, it can't be helped. I can't re-post it someplace else due to copy write.

EDIT: Did you say you could edit it?

[JBPuffin]

Well then, it can't be helped. I can't re-post it someplace else due to copy write.

EDIT: Did you say you could edit it?

I have the software to do so, just need the picture...but you say you can't post it somewhere else b/c of copyright? What's the policy on it, and can you not just link it back to the original wherever you post it?

[bunnynoah]

I have the software to do so, just need the picture...but you say you can't post it somewhere else b/c of copyright? What's the policy on it, and can you not just link it back to the original wherever you post it?

I don't need it. I just want to know if it's balanced?

[JBPuffin]

I don't need it. I just want to know if it's balanced?

Stats are fine. Confused by the weapon proficiencies (every class is proficient with daggers, and I don't see a thematic link), but it's balanced. Would be cool to have subraces, but they're not necessary.

[bunnynoah]

Stats are fine. Confused by the weapon proficiencies (every class is proficient with daggers, and I don't see a thematic link), but it's balanced. Would be cool to have subraces, but they're not necessary.

I'll see about changing the weapon proficiency. Maybe a proficiency in Wisdom (Perception) checks for hearing as their antennae are very sensitive to noise and sound waves.

[bunnynoah]

Changed the weapon proficiency to a hearing improvement. Added languages Common and Sylvan as they seem like a very Fey kind of race.

[Lalliman]

So, how do you expect the four-armed trait to work out?

They can't use them to gain extra attacks, because the two-weapon fighting rules state you simply get one extra attack. But they can wield a two-handed weapon and a shield simultaneously. For anyone proficient with shields, there'd be no reason not to wield one alongside whatever their weapon of choice is. Which is not that imbalanced, but it's a bit limiting.

It might be fun to make a race-specific perk that allows them to multi-wield and make three bonus attacks per round. Would be hard to balance though, especially because dual-wielding is so poorly designed as is.

[JBPuffin]

So, how do you expect the four-armed trait to work out?

They can't use them to gain extra attacks, because the two-weapon fighting rules state you simply get one extra attack. But they can wield a two-handed weapon and a shield simultaneously. For anyone proficient with shields, there'd be no reason not to wield one alongside whatever their weapon of choice is. Which is not that imbalanced, but it's a bit limiting.

It might be fun to make a race-specific perk that allows them to multi-wield and make three bonus attacks per round. Would be hard to balance though, especially because dual-wielding is so poorly designed as is.

NOOOOO. Carrying a greatsword and a shield at the same time is enough of a power boost. And, frankly, you could dual-wield two-handed weapons just fine with Dual Wielder.

[JNAProductions]

So, how do you expect the four-armed trait to work out?

They can't use them to gain extra attacks, because the two-weapon fighting rules state you simply get one extra attack. But they can wield a two-handed weapon and a shield simultaneously. For anyone proficient with shields, there'd be no reason not to wield one alongside whatever their weapon of choice is. Which is not that imbalanced, but it's a bit limiting.

It might be fun to make a race-specific perk that allows them to multi-wield and make three bonus attacks per round. Would be hard to balance though, especially because dual-wielding is so poorly designed as is.

Yeah, no. Three bonus attacks would be RIDICULOUS. Assuming you nabbed that feat at level 4, you get four times the attacks of your average Fighter, twice as many as dual-wielders or Monks, and a third again as many as a Flurrying Monk.

And then once you stack on, say, Hunter's Mark and Improve Divine Smite (by level 11)...

That's 5 attacks, all at your normal attack bonus, each hitting for probably 2d6+1d8+possible stat mod. Plus regular Divine Smites, if you want.

[SodaDarwin]

My thought on four armed: don't let them use the second pair for weapons, only manipulation.

Carry a torch? Okay. Pull a lever? Sure. Eat food? Cool. Cast a spell? Maybe.

[bunnynoah]

My thought on four armed: don't let them use the second pair for weapons, only manipulation.

Carry a torch? Okay. Pull a lever? Sure. Eat food? Cool. Cast a spell? Maybe.

I reworded it to be like your suggestion. Might need to improve the fluff, but it gets the point across: You can only wield weapons/sheilds like any other 2 handed race.

[Lalliman]

And, frankly, you could dual-wield two-handed weapons just fine with Dual Wielder.
No you can't. Dual Wielder says "You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren’t light."


Yeah, no.
Just because I didn't elaborate doesn't mean I intended it to work without any caveats. I figured you'd limit the amount of bonus attacks based on the amount of Extra Attack features the character has, and make the second and third bonus attacks unable to benefit from Two-Weapon Fighting Style. It'd be a complicated mess though, so it's best to just get rid of the combat usage of the extra arms.


I reworded it to be like your suggestion. Might need to improve the fluff, but it gets the point across: You can only wield weapons/sheilds like any other 2 handed race.
Err, the current phrasing implies that you can't dual-wield, because it says "one weapon". It also doesn't actually forbid you from wielding a two-handed weapon and shield, because a shield is not a weapon. (This distinction is important for the Duelling Fighting Style.) And if you read it very strictly, it seems to imply that you can wield more than one weapon, but that doing so makes you unable to use your hands for "other purposes that require free hands". No one would interpret it that way, of course, but it's best to be safe. I'd word it something like: "No more than two hands at a time can be used to effectively wield a weapon or shield."

Anyways, once that's figured out, it should be good. It's a cool race :)

[JBPuffin]

No you can't. Dual Wielder says "You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren’t light."

The heck? Last night that's not what it said...oi vay.

How about this:

Four-Armed:You have four arms, giving you twice as many hands for the purposes of carrying objects and using weapons. This allows you to wield a two-handed weapon, a light or one-handed weapon, and a shield; two two-handed weapons; or up to four light or one-handed weapons. You can only receive the AC bonus from one shield. If you have the ability to fight with two one-handed weapons (ie, from the Dual Wielder feat) simultaneously, you may also two-weapon fight with two-handed weapons. Additionally, when you make an attack as a bonus action, you may make an additional attack with another off-hand weapon.

Does that cover everything four arms ought to do, combat-wise?

[Lalliman]

Four-Armed:You have four arms, giving you twice as many hands for the purposes of carrying objects and using weapons. This allows you to wield a two-handed weapon, a light or one-handed weapon, and a shield; two two-handed weapons; or up to four light or one-handed weapons. You can only receive the AC bonus from one shield. If you have the ability to fight with two one-handed weapons (ie, from the Dual Wielder feat) simultaneously, you may also two-weapon fight with two-handed weapons. Additionally, when you make an attack as a bonus action, you may make an additional attack with another off-hand weapon.

Does that cover everything four arms ought to do, combat-wise?
Yes, but there's a few loopholes here. You can't get more than two bonus attacks, so carrying a fourth weapon is pointless. If you're multi-wielding, there is no reason not to wield a shield in your fourth hand. It also seems that if you have the Dual-Wielder feat, you could wield a greatsword as your main weapon and two one-handed weapon as your off-hand weapons, which has straight-up better damage output than using only great weapons or only one-handed weapons.

That's the problem with features like this, you have to word them very meticulously in order to be internally balanced. Let alone the sheer power boost it gives you, especially if you have Dual Wielder. It seems better to make the extra hands unusable for combat normally, but offer a feat that lets you use them. That adds an investment cost, so allows the multi-wielding ability to be as powerful as it reasonably should be.

(As an aside, all light weapons are one-handed weapons. You don't have to say "light or one-handed" like in 3.5.)

[JBPuffin]

Yes, but there's a few loopholes here. You can't get more than two bonus attacks, so carrying a fourth weapon is pointless. If you're multi-wielding, there is no reason not to wield a shield in your fourth hand. It also seems that if you have the Dual-Wielder feat, you could wield a greatsword as your main weapon and two one-handed weapon as your off-hand weapons, which has straight-up better damage output than using only great weapons or only one-handed weapons.

That's the problem with features like this, you have to word them very meticulously in order to be internally balanced. Let alone the sheer power boost it gives you, especially if you have Dual Wielder. It seems better to make the extra hands unusable for combat normally, but offer a feat that lets you use them. That adds an investment cost, so allows the multi-wielding ability to be as powerful as it reasonably should be.

(As an aside, all light weapons are one-handed weapons. You don't have to say "light or one-handed" like in 3.5.)

All of the first paragraph is true. And probably the last bit. Middle bit, I could care less; making multi-wielding miles better than two-handed and archery is fine with me (it's a lot of attack rolls that have to hit to do all of your damage. Like, dude.)

[Ziegander]

While I am glad the four-armed trait has gotten a lot of discussion and refinement, can we also address the fact that moth-women have breasts for absolutely no reason whatsoever? Please get rid of that, its only reason to exist is for enabling furries. It serves no biological purpose and it doesn't even have any biological vestigial history (they don't have any mammalian ancestry). Also do the females actually need to weigh four times that of the males? The sexual dimorphism there is bordering on males being Small sized and females being Medium, not to mention, I don't see how a creature that weighs, on average, a bit more than a human is supposed to fly with insect wings, nor do I understand why all of that extra weight is remotely necessary for nurturing what is presumably like a 5lb little mothbaby. Females weigh more than males, sure, I'll buy that, but it's probably more appropriate for them to weigh like 50% to even 75% more than literally 400% more. If an average male lunoth weighs between 40 and 60 lbs, a female might weigh anywhere between 60 or 70 lbs to 90 or 105 lbs.

I'm also not sure on the internal skeleton, unless it's far less heavy than a human's, or the "visibly fatter" element. Does a lunoth have animal fat? I guess the entire point of my post is to draw into question the biological/anatomical nature of the lunoth particularly.

Mechanically, I agree that Four-Armed is insanely overpowered. Enough that on the DM's side of things the damage and AC increases alone, simultaneously, I've seen the MM recommend a CR increase of 3 or even 4 just for the numbers your Lunoth is able to pump out over and above a normal fighting character. That's nuts. This definitely needs to be toned down as most people have suggested, and I also think either disadvantage on saving throws against effects that deal Thunder damage or Vulnerability to Thunder damage might be appropriate, perhaps with the caveat being if those effects are based on sound.

You have a great concept here, I'm sorry to be so critical, I just see lots of room for refinement, but I do really like the concept you are working on.

[bunnynoah]

While I am glad the four-armed trait has gotten a lot of discussion and refinement, can we also address the fact that moth-women have breasts for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Please get rid of that, its only reason to exist is for enabling furries. It serves no biological purpose and it doesn't even have any biological vestigial history (they don't have any mammalian ancestry). Also do the females actually need to weigh four times that of the males? The sexual dimorphism there is bordering on males being Small sized and females being Medium, not to mention, I don't see how a creature that weighs, on average, a bit more than a human is supposed to fly with insect wings, nor do I understand why all of that extra weight is remotely necessary for nurturing what is presumably like a 5lb little mothbaby. Females weigh more than males, sure, I'll buy that, but it's probably more appropriate for them to weigh like 50% to even 75% more than literally 400% more. If an average male lunoth weighs between 40 and 60 lbs, a female might weigh anywhere between 60 or 70 lbs to 90 or 105 lbs.

I'm also not sure on the internal skeleton, unless it's far less heavy than a human's, or the "visibly fatter" element. Does a lunoth have animal fat? I guess the entire point of my post is to draw into question the biological/anatomical nature of the lunoth particularly.

Mechanically, I agree that Four-Armed is insanely overpowered. Enough that on the DM's side of things the damage and AC increases alone, simultaneously, I've seen the MM recommend a CR increase of 3 or even 4 just for the numbers your Lunoth is able to pump out over and above a normal fighting character. That's nuts. This definitely needs to be toned down as most people have suggested, and I also think either disadvantage on saving throws against effects that deal Thunder damage or Vulnerability to Thunder damage might be appropriate, perhaps with the caveat being if those effects are based on sound.

You have a great concept here, I'm sorry to be so critical, I just see lots of room for refinement, but I do really like the concept you are working on.

I have one thing to say to you: Female Dragonborn.

[Ziegander]

I have one thing to say to you: Female Dragonborn.

Of the five different points I made, you address just one, countering with something that's supposed to support your original design that a lot of players also have issue with. Okay, then.

[bunnynoah]

Of the five different points I made, you address just one, countering with something that's supposed to support your original design that a lot of players also have issue with. Okay, then.

Female moths are bigger than males in real life for reproductive purposes.

The skeleton has a story behind it (Based off their origins) But I was going to save it for another project when I finish it. My Thri-Kreen will also have skeletons for the same reason.

My original plan for the four arms was that they had no advantage over two armed races, should I have used that instead?

[bunnynoah]

Also, it's a fantasy game. Things don't have to make sense or be completely realistic in each setting. It's silly to get upset with a small detail as body shape of a race or gender. In fact, it makes them more relatable/likeable if they have similar traits to humans.

Point being, if you don't like moth people having breasts because it "enables furries" that's fine! You can edit the fluff as needed for your setting. That is the beauty of a tabletop game.

In my setting, they were transformed from humans and/or elves which explains the presence of bones and breasts. Kinda like how the Khajiit of the Elder Scrolls come from certain wood elves who worshipped Azura.

Edit: Thank you for being critical, however. I take critisism very seriously, so your input is always appreciated. The four armed trait will change when I figure out an alternative.
EDITEdit: I didn't even want the wings to be functional, people simply expect wing creatures to fly. Flying speed is gone and I will refluff the wings to be more for "show" or "status".

[Lalliman]

To be fair, permanent breasts in humans serve no purpose either. Most other mammals develop their mammaries during pregnancy and lose them when the children don't need milk anymore. That includes apes, whose breasts look similar to those of humans. The breasts of a woman who's never been pregnant are just fat deposits. They exist not because of a practical function, but due to sexual selection, like a peacock's tail. At least, that's thought to be the reason. So one could argue the same for any non-mammalian species. That's not gonna stop people from looking at you weird though.

Many non-mammals have larger females. A larger body allows them to store more nutrients for making eggs, make more eggs simultaneously, and better protect the eggs when they're been laid. That doesn't hold up when they give live birth though. You can't fight very well while pregnant, so among mammals the females are better off hiding while the males do the fighting. Ergo, larger males.

Of course, none of this matters if their backstory involves magical transformation.

What I like to do for creatures with wings is give them an ability equivalent to the barbarian's 14th level Eagle feature. A flying speed, but only during your turn. That way, they can fly without all the game-breaking complications that usually comes with.

[bunnynoah]

To be fair, permanent breasts in humans serve no purpose either. Most other mammals develop their mammaries during pregnancy and lose them when the children don't need milk anymore. That includes apes, whose breasts look similar to those of humans. The breasts of a woman who's never been pregnant are just fat deposits. They exist not because of a practical function, but due to sexual selection, like a peacock's tail. At least, that's thought to be the reason. So one could argue the same for any non-mammalian species. That's not gonna stop people from looking at you weird though.

Many non-mammals have larger females. A larger body allows them to store more nutrients for making eggs, make more eggs simultaneously, and better protect the eggs when they're been laid. That doesn't hold up when they give live birth though. You can't fight very well while pregnant, so among mammals the females are better off hiding while the males do the fighting. Ergo, larger males.

Of course, none of this matters if their backstory involves magical transformation.

What I like to do for creatures with wings is give them an ability equivalent to the barbarian's 14th level Eagle feature. A flying speed, but only during your turn. That way, they can fly without all the game-breaking complications that usually comes with.

You bring plenty of fair points. I'll chang them to be more bug-like and less mammalian.