Build Help: Good aligned Necromancer

[Warchon]

Hi there
I'm going to be joining a 3.5 group shortly, and I have a character concept in mind that I'm not sure how to pull off. I'm hoping somebody more experienced with obscure builds might have some suggestions.
My DM is likely to allow a certain amount of wiggle room, but I'd like to both use the vanilla rules as closely as possible, and of course avoid making anything overpowered or munchkiny.

The basic requirements I want are

Good Alignment
Access to Animate Dead, Create Undead, and Create Greater Undead spells (Or reasonable equivalents thereof)
Access to at-level or near-level Rebuke Undead, so as not to make these spells suicidal to cast
Ideally an at-will caster for RP purposes, as the basic idea is that this character did not choose this path, but is simply attempting to make the best of an unexpected ability.

Obviously a simple cleric comes close, but by definition they have actively chosen Evil...missing out on positive energy channeling is also of course unfortunate, but I'm willing to take that.
Favored Soul is also nearly a match, but missing out on rebuke is crippling for a character focused on undead.

My perfect version of this character would be a divine caster, but arcane is fine too, particularly if the class itself has some sort of focus on the dead.

This campaign will start out at 1st level, so creative combinations of prestige classes are, unfortunately, not an option.

If anybody knows of any basic class that fulfills these needs, or comes close enough that some mild tweaks will bring him there, I'd very much appreciate being pointed in the appropriate direction.
Thanks in advance for looking at it. :)

[OldTrees1]

Cleric 6 / Bone Knight(Five Nations pg 117) 10 / Cleric +4 (playable as a necromancy character from level 1)

Bone Knight 1 transforms your Cleric Turn Undead into Rebuke Undead regardless of your alignment.

[Warchon]

Cleric 6 / Bone Knight(Five Nations pg 117) 10 / Cleric +4 (playable as a necromancy character from level 1)

Bone Knight 1 transforms your Cleric Turn Undead into Rebuke Undead regardless of your alignment.

Thanks! I'll read up on this class.
I've also stumbled across Dread Necromancer..it forces me into Neutral alignment, but everything else looks like a perfect match.

Edit: While I'm not a big fan of waiting for 5th level to 'achieve' the character image, the strict focus on undead control looks like it may actually make this class a better match than the Dread Necromancer..and as you already pointed out, I can keep my Good alignment, positive energy channeling, and cleric spell progression. This class may be perfect. :)

Since we're doing our stats up by rigid dice roll, I'll probably want to keep templates for both on hand and see which is the better fit once I have stats.
Thanks for finding this for me!

[Uckleverry]

How are you going to keep a Good alignment when you're regularly casting [Evil] undead creation spells? Isn't that a bit like trying to stay Good while torturing innocents on the side to gain power?

[dysprosium]

How are you going to keep a Good alignment when you're regularly casting [Evil] undead creation spells? Isn't that a bit like trying to stay Good while torturing innocents on the side to gain power?

One solution would be to play a hellbred from Fiendish Codex II. They have the explicit ability to use [Evil] spells/items without penalty.

[Geddy2112]

It won't be accessible off the bat, but you always have the option of atonement spells on the reg at higher levels.

Not a mechanical thing, but you can probably mitigate the effect of casting [evil] spells if the intent and need is great enough. A wee jas follower in particular can get away with acts of necromancy so long as the creature consents-to both giving their remains and being reanimated. A good hypothetical is a city facing destruction by a demonic(or some other evil outsider horde) choosing to reainmate the dead, particularly fallen soldiers of the city who wish to continue the fight if they should fall. To say the dead must join the ranks of the living lest the living join the ranks of the dead could be argued as nonevil, as the intention to save and protect life is there.

[OldTrees1]

Thanks! I'll read up on this class.
I've also stumbled across Dread Necromancer..it forces me into Neutral alignment, but everything else looks like a perfect match.

Edit: While I'm not a big fan of waiting for 5th level to 'achieve' the character image, the strict focus on undead control looks like it may actually make this class a better match than the Dread Necromancer..and as you already pointed out, I can keep my Good alignment, positive energy channeling, and cleric spell progression. This class may be perfect. :)

Since we're doing our stats up by rigid dice roll, I'll probably want to keep templates for both on hand and see which is the better fit once I have stats.
Thanks for finding this for me!

1) If you overlook the NonGood alignment restriction, Dread Necromancer is a better fit for the necromancer character.

2) The Cleric / Bone Knight path can use the Necromancer domain(Ebberon Campaign setting pg 107) to get the Command Undead spell at 3rd level. This requires an ideal based Cleric rather than a Deity based cleric if you want to be Good aligned.

[NecroDancer]

It depends on the DM's lore, he can decide what spells are evil or not (I once had a DM that made the majority of enchantment spells evil because they robbed free will). You can also use the undead to do acts of good which would probably balance out your alignment to neutral and/or good.

[Inevitability]

Champions of Valor has the Animate With the Spirit spell, which you may want to check out. It's sanctified, so many classes can cast it.

[Zanos]

It depends on the DM's lore, he can decide what spells are evil or not (I once had a DM that made the majority of enchantment spells evil because they robbed free will). You can also use the undead to do acts of good which would probably balance out your alignment to neutral and/or good.
All undead creation spells have the [Evil] tag with no lore explanation as far as I can recall, so that's a general assumption of all 3.5 settings rather than lore specific.

You could homebrew a change, obviously.

[emeraldstreak]

If Bone Knight grab some regeneration.

[Fouredged Sword]

All undead creation spells have the [Evil] tag with no lore explanation as far as I can recall, so that's a general assumption of all 3.5 settings rather than lore specific.

You could homebrew a change, obviously.

There are several lore explanations in Liber Mortis with a sort of "Pick the ideas you likes and throw out the rest" statement.

[Telok]

To balance [evil] spells, cast [good] spells. Or there's probably some way to metamagic them into being both at the same time.

Generally alignment is either run as defined by the labels or as defined by intent and actions. If it's by labels make sure to cast protection from evil on your undead regularly.

[RoboEmperor]

Warlocks have at-will no-limit animate dead. If you choose not to use material components, the dead lasts 1min/level. If you choose to use material components, they are permanent.

Create Undead and Create Greater Undead suck, like really really badly, so my advice to you would be to not bother with them and just stick with animate dead. I'd personally recommend a Warlock with all the undead boosting feats, and then spamming animate-dead all day. Unless of course, you're evil and attempting to kill the world with an army of specters.

If you want free animate dead, check out my planar binding cleric build in my signature and change it to your personal liking. Outsiders such as Aartaglith and Maurezhi have at-will animate dead. Pit Fiends have at-will Create Undead. Ak’chazar have at-will Create Greater Undead, so going a planar binder is actually the best resource-free necromancer.

Of course the problem with this is you can't boost your undead with your feats, so what's more important to you? Free undead or stronger undead?

edit: If you want to make your own corpses you're gonna need to go arcane caster and get Stone to Flesh and a method of making highly detailed stone statues. These statues turn into corpses after a stone to flesh.

[Warchon]

To address some of the questions coming up

I have a roleplay validation for being a Good character with Evil spells, and some of you have already gotten pretty close to my intent. I'll toss it under the Spoiler tag so as not to bore those who aren't interested.

The character has his undeath control as a result of outside meddling. I haven't chosen a -source- of it, and may or may not flesh it out prior to actually playing, but the quick version is that his brother became deathly ill for mysterious reasons, and my character woke up one night to find him, undead, attacking the living. He ordered him to STOP and, miraculously, it worked. A lot of his character development is intended to develop around the search for why he has these abilities and, of course, the hope to both protect and perhaps -save- his stricken brother.

Of course, the odds of the brother surviving very long are slim, so there's likely to be mourning, rage, blah blah blah

The undead control being an innate thing is why I'm particularly attracted to the Dread Necromancer character, which is basically a Sorceror with a limited spell library and Rebuke Undead. I think my DM will allow me to make him Good, but even if he doesn't I'm OK with it. As others have mentioned, the idea is that he won't Animate anybody without their express consent unless it's an absolute emergency, and he'll be offering defeated villains the opportunity to serve him as undead as a form of penance. Obviously this lends itself well to a choice of God, but I'm not familiar enough with D&D lore to know who would really be appropriate.

Evil spells with Good intentions.

I wasn't aware the higher level Undead spells are that poor, but I'm OK with it. The Undeath focus is an RP thing, and we're supposed to be playing flawed characters, I'm sure his attention can drift to other points if they look attractive enough. :)

Thanks for all the replies folks. I'll look into the Warlock too, that should give me four builds to consider.
Dread Necro
Cleric>Bone Knight
Pally>Bone Knight
Warlock
So I'll be OK unless I manage to roll up a really heavily physical stat block.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Someone on the board made a homebrew ACF to the dread necromancer he called the spirit caller that was designed to make it good. I can find it once I am on my laptop. I played one in a campaign and loved it since I could have cool minions and still do my hellbred's quest for redemption.

[Sam K]

Cleric of Wee Jas should be able to be LG, and still rebuke undead.

[Eldariel]

There's also the option of outsourcing your undead creation (e.g. a Spellstiched Undead with Animate Dead/Animate Dread Warrior - you could even Animate it yourself as one evil spell does not immediately cause falling) and just making use of Command Undead to keep them under your control (this is, obviously, Wizardy, not Clerichood).

[ZamielVanWeber]

Cleric of Wee Jas should be able to be LG, and still rebuke undead.

Turning is tied to alignment at base. Unless this is a specific exception in another book good clerics must turn undead.

[Inevitability]

Turning is tied to alignment at base. Unless this is a specific exception in another book good clerics must turn undead.

Indeed. While LN clerics of Wee Jas must rebuke rather than turn, LG clerics have no such restrictions.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Indeed. While LN clerics of Wee Jas must rebuke rather than turn, LG clerics have no such restrictions.

Wee Jas is a LN deity. Unless again, that is stated in another book LG must turn, LE must rebuke, but LN can do either chosen when they take their first level of cleric.

[Inevitability]

Wee Jas is a LN deity. Unless again, that is stated in another book LG must turn, LE must rebuke, but LN can do either chosen when they take their first level of cleric.

PHB, page 33:


Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): Any cleric, regardless of alignment,
has the power to affect undead creatures (such as skeletons,
zombies, ghosts, and vampires) by channeling the power of his faith
through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead,
page 159).
A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can
turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric
who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such
creatures., forcing them to cower in awe of his power. If your
character is a neutral cleric of a neutral deity, you must choose
whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an
evil cleric. Once you make this choice, it cannot be reversed. This
decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous
cure or inflict spells (see above). Exceptions: All lawful neutral clerics of
Wee Jas (goddess of death and magic) rebuke or command undead.
All clerics of St. Cuthbert (god of retribution) and all nonevil clerics
of Obad-Hai (god of nature) turn of destroy undead.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Ah, there it is. Thank you.

[RoboEmperor]

So I'll be OK unless I manage to roll up a really heavily physical stat block.

Warlocks are ability score independent. They fully function with an ability score of 8 across the board.

So to reiterate:
Free feat boosted temporary undead: Warlock
Costly feat boosted permanent undead: Warlock, Cleric, Wizard
Create undead and Create Greater Undead: Cleric
Outsourced free no-feat-boosted permanent undead created by Outsiders: Cleric, Wizard. Note that Clerics have no access to command undead.
Outsourced free no-feat-boosted permanent undead created by your own permanent undead: Wizard
Heal Undead: Warlock, Cleric. Note that Warlock can only heal at high levels.
Outsource Undead Healing: Cleric, Wizard
Able to be a necromancer with any ability score: Warlock

Undead = Zombies and skeletons only.

Pick what matters most to you and pick the class that has all of it.

[Fouredged Sword]

Interestingly i dont think anyone would complain per say.if you called evil outsiders with planer ally and killed them, then raised the body. It wluld be an instance of two wrongs making a sorta ok.

[RoboEmperor]

Interestingly i dont think anyone would complain per say.if you called evil outsiders with planer ally and killed them, then raised the body. It wluld be an instance of two wrongs making a sorta ok.

I'm pretty sure outsiders don't leave bodies, except native outsiders.

[Sagetim]

Hi there
I'm going to be joining a 3.5 group shortly, and I have a character concept in mind that I'm not sure how to pull off. I'm hoping somebody more experienced with obscure builds might have some suggestions.
My DM is likely to allow a certain amount of wiggle room, but I'd like to both use the vanilla rules as closely as possible, and of course avoid making anything overpowered or munchkiny.

The basic requirements I want are

Good Alignment
Access to Animate Dead, Create Undead, and Create Greater Undead spells (Or reasonable equivalents thereof)
Access to at-level or near-level Rebuke Undead, so as not to make these spells suicidal to cast
Ideally an at-will caster for RP purposes, as the basic idea is that this character did not choose this path, but is simply attempting to make the best of an unexpected ability.

Obviously a simple cleric comes close, but by definition they have actively chosen Evil...missing out on positive energy channeling is also of course unfortunate, but I'm willing to take that.
Favored Soul is also nearly a match, but missing out on rebuke is crippling for a character focused on undead.

My perfect version of this character would be a divine caster, but arcane is fine too, particularly if the class itself has some sort of focus on the dead.

This campaign will start out at 1st level, so creative combinations of prestige classes are, unfortunately, not an option.

If anybody knows of any basic class that fulfills these needs, or comes close enough that some mild tweaks will bring him there, I'd very much appreciate being pointed in the appropriate direction.
Thanks in advance for looking at it. :)

Um, wait, what? You don't need rebuke to control undead you make with animate dead (for example) they fall under your control automatically, and arcane casters generally have access to spells like Command Undead and Control Undead, if Create and Create Greater don't actually give you control of the things you make.

Now, that said, it sounds like you already have a build going. So let's look at some other suggestions so far:

Fabricate and sufficient ranks of Craft (Scultpor) could get you sufficiently realistic sculptures. But if you stone to flesh them, they aren't guaranteed to have any bones or other bits, just by a mass of flesh that falls over into a nasty pile. I mean, you could use Wall of Stone and Fabricate to keep making more of it all day every day, but unless you're looking to supply your world's first fast food place with questionable meat products, it's not going to be that useful.

You have to use Truename binding/summoning to cause an outsider to show up on the prime material plane in such a way as to force them to die and leave a body behind when they do so. Because when you truename bind them like that, if they die they die for real. It's in Tome of Magic, and buried off in the Truenaming section as part of a prestige class, if you're wondering about it.

Warlock is semi ability independent. With different stats, different things become optimal to do with them. For example, dexterity is super handy for a warlock, in that it determines how accurate their ranged touch attacks are. And since you want to ensure you Hit when you shot zappy beam, you'll want your attack bonus to be as good as you can manage. Charisma, too, is handy for a warlock. In part so that you can lie better and get away with more, but also because it buffs your dc's as a warlock. Which means you can pick things that require dc's and actually have them be useful to you instead of just kind of 'meh, not worth taking because my dc is too low'. While you Can dump charisma on a warlock, it pidgeon holes your build to a certain degree.

[OldTrees1]

Um, wait, what? You don't need rebuke to control undead you make with animate dead (for example) they fall under your control automatically, and arcane casters generally have access to spells like Command Undead and Control Undead, if Create and Create Greater don't actually give you control of the things you make.

Rebuke Undead was in reference to Create Undead (since the 6th level spell does not grant control over the undead it creates).

For the undead normally created via Create Undead:

Command Undead allows them a Charisma check to resist each command
Control Undead only lasts minutes per cast and uses a 7th level slot
Rebuke Undead is indefinite but has only a limited capacity

Hence why Rebuke Undead is often used for the undead created by Create Undead, but having access to Command Undead is also important. Control Undead can go rot in a shallow grave.


Rebuke Undead is also commonly used on the kinds of undead that neither Animate Dead nor Create Undead will grant you.

[Anthrowhale]

As a variation on the cleric approaches, you might go with the Spontaneous Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm).

[Sagetim]

Rebuke Undead was in reference to Create Undead (since the 6th level spell does not grant control over the undead it creates).

For the undead normally created via Create Undead:

Command Undead allows them a Charisma check to resist each command
Control Undead only lasts minutes per cast and uses a 7th level slot
Rebuke Undead is indefinite but has only a limited capacity

Hence why Rebuke Undead is often used for the undead created by Create Undead, but having access to Command Undead is also important. Control Undead can go rot in a shallow grave.


Rebuke Undead is also commonly used on the kinds of undead that neither Animate Dead nor Create Undead will grant you.

Aha, thank you for clarifying. So if I want to control a swarm of allips created by torturing a number of peasant farmers to death with slowly rotting in a number of holes in the ground while being subjected to sanity breaking mind games, I'll need Rebuke Undead to keep steady control of them. Good to know. And yes, an Allip swarm IS a solution to a Tarraesque problem. If not for killing it, than for at least subduing it with wisdom damage and keeping it down.

For added complexity, use the Allip swarm to take it down,then transport the unconscious body into a large cavern to hide it, then build up around said cavern with mazes and what not to keep people from casually stumbling upon it. Finally, order the Allips to hang out on the Tarraesque and keep it drained while you permanently raise a forbiddance zone around the Allips on all sides, so that they can't actually escape. Proceed to leave the area and never go back, relinquishing control on the Allips and leaving them to tend to their own food source as a matter of survival. Then when adventureres eventually stumble on it, and think they found a level appropriate encounter of 'a bunch of allips' they find out that they done goofed by killing the things that were keeping the terror of the world ko'd.

[JBPuffin]

SNIP

Extra credit: put some actual safeguards in place so said adventurers have to be able to kill the Tarrasque before getting inside the cavern.

[Sagetim]

Extra credit: put some actual safeguards in place so said adventurers have to be able to kill the Tarrasque before getting inside the cavern.

That sounds like an awful lot of work, and we'd be avoiding the opportunity that an unruly low or mid level party might manage to unleash the Tarrasque upon the world in a great and terrible oopsocalypse.

[Vaern]

Clerics must be within one step of their deity's alignment and their deity is their source of spellpower. And as far as sticking as close to the core rules is concerned, a good-aligned cleric is strictly not allowed to cast evil spells, even if he serves a neutral gods who might tolerate necromancy. Favored souls don't appear to have such restrictions to spellcasting explicitly pointed out, but they are described as following the path of a cleric and still channel power from their deity and are thus still limited by what their god will allow. As far as I'm aware, alignment descriptors on spells do not so hinder arcane casters.
And besides the issue of relying on a god for power, most cultures believe that certain rituals must be observed regarding a person's remains in order for that person's spirit to pass into the afterlife and that desecration is the body is disruptive, or at the very least grossly offensive, to the soul of the one it belonged to. As a good aligned divine character, you would be hard-pressed to justify necromancy with the excuse of, "Their body is just going to rot. They're not using it any more, so why shouldn't I make it a zombie?"

For RP purposes, as a character who did not choose their ability and is simply making the best of what they were given, sorcerer may work well. Clerics have a choice of the god they draw power from be wizards pick and choose the spell selection through long years of research and study, but the sorcerer is described as being born with their gifts. Perhaps you came from a family who have historically had an affinity for the dark arts, but want something other than to simply empower yourself with it. And as a class that is not defined by being devoutly religious, you are not obligated to share others' beliefs regarding the sanctity of death and letting the dead rest in peace.

[Warchon]

Y'all are awesome. There is a lot to go through here, and I will have to spend a fair bit of time following up on a number of suggestions, objections, and ideas.
Thanks for helping make this D&D character all he can be, this is gonna be a great campaign.