3.5 ed veteran to play in a 5th ed campaign full of newbies: things I should know?

[Fiery Diamond]

I have a decent amount of experience playing (mostly as a DM) 3.5. I'm about to embark on an interesting endeavor: someone who has never played role playing games before bought the material for 5th ed and is setting up a campaign full of other people who have never played role playing games before. I've never played 5th ed before, but I'm the only one with tabletop RPG experience (I'm not going to be the DM; the guy setting up the campaign is).

So. What things should I know about 5th ed and its differences from 3.5 going in? I appreciate being told both the obvious and the less obvious.

And yes, I'm well aware of how disastrous this might turn out. We'll see how it goes.

[AsDeR]

IMO what has more chances to go wrong is you being an experienced DM. If you join the game with the worng attitude you can easily ruin everybody's fun.
3.5 to 5e conversion is not something you should owrry about at all.

-Step there to have fun, not to be right.
-Let the other DM handle things without your opinion.
-Don't boss the other players arround.
-Don't make corrections during gameplay unless you are asked to.
-Wait till the game ends to say whatever you want to say about it. With respect.

The only thing that you should worry about 5e right now is that everybody in the table is a noob, you included, so there is nothing you should know ahead of time.

-Really, go there to HAVE FUN!

[warmachine]

What AsDeR said. Expanding on it, there's a danger you'll misapply your understanding of 3.5e to 5e and give out incorrect advice as well as annoying others. For example, Rogues no longer need to flank (or surprise) to get Sneak Attack, just have the enemy within 5ft of an ally, so don't tell Rogue players to sneak behind enemy lines.

[Beelzebubba]

5E is much simpler than 3.5, so it should be really quick for you to pick up the basics.

That said, the way they simplified it has many implications:

Fewer customization options. You choose *between* a Feat and ability score increases, for example, so there's much less system mastery and only a few sub-optimal options.
The numbers ramp up more slowly and cap at a certain point, and to make it work stacking has been all but eliminated. So, when a spell says 'this moves your AC to 16 if it's worse than that' then that means the only things that affect it are external factors like cover, and it does weird things like 'if I pick up or put down a shield it doesnt' matter'. This is a feature, not a bug. It speeds up play since you don't need an Excel spreadsheet to track stacking bonuses.
The slow number ramping also means foes like Orcs can be used along a much longer time in the campaign, since Armor Classes don't increase that much, and adding a few monsters to an encounter quickly ramps up the difficulty. So, be careful with the number of monsters you use, since a few extra attacks per round adds up quickly.
Spellcasters have been nerfed gigantically, but have been given more 'at will' powers and more flexibility that creates a blend closer to a Cleric. They get fewer spells. They don't cast more spells with high stats. The most powerful spells are 'Concentration', basically one at a time, so all the massive spell stacking nonsense of 3.5 is gone. 'Save or Die' is gone except for a precious few cases that require several conditions to line up. 'Save or Suck' spells get saving throws to escape every round except for some of the highest level spells. Stuff like that. So, they're not overwhelmingly godlike any more, and they don't make them pay for it by being useless early on.
Multiclassing is much more balanced. Spellcasters can actually multiclass with non-spellcasting classes and still work OK. Single dips aren't overpowering any more, and the only true 'trap' option is to take only 3 levels in a class and then they lose an Ability Score increase.
Finally, it has way less of the game defined by rules, and more of the contextual judgment of things has been given back to the DM - like Basic. It gives you a few simple mechanics that can allow you to make calls in most situations quickly (i.e. 'ok, you get Advantage on this'), and an overall style that can be summarized as 'don't overcomplicate things, here are the fundamentals you have to remember, and the rest can be left to your good judgment'.



Otherwise:

Make sure to read all the spells. Many of them have changed significantly.

Advantage/Disadvantage is the most important mechanic in the game. It replaced almost all stacking and bonuses/penalties.

Stealth and Invisibility are tricky. Read up on those.

It feels like a nice middle ground between all the editions. It's good. It has flaws, but the flaws are all familiar. :smallbiggrin:

Good luck!

[Random Sanity]

Thanks to a major stat squish, the gap between an optimized and an unoptimized character in 5th is WAY smaller than in 3.5. You can roll up whatever looks cool and still expect to contribute.

Prepared spellcasting is now a funny hybrid between vancian and spontaneous - you prep X amount of spells for the day, then cast any given one at any given time from any relevant spell slot.

There's no level drain and very little in the line of instant-win buttons, so combat is less "rock-paper-scissors rocket tag" and more "tactics".

[EvilAnagram]

As others have said, remember that is a new game, and you are as much a noob as the rest. Don't try to take charge of the game because you feel experienced.

[MrFahrenheit]

The slow number ramping also means foes like Orcs can be used along a much longer time in the campaign, since Armor Classes don't increase that much, and adding a few monsters to an encounter quickly ramps up the difficulty. So, be careful with the number of monsters you use, since a few extra attacks per round adds up quickly.
Spellcasters have been nerfed gigantically, but have been given more 'at will' powers and more flexibility that creates a blend closer to a Cleric. They get fewer spells. They don't cast more spells with high stats. The most powerful spells are 'Concentration', basically one at a time, so all the massive spell stacking nonsense of 3.5 is gone. 'Save or Die' is gone except for a precious few cases that require several conditions to line up. 'Save or Suck' spells get saving throws to escape every round except for some of the highest level spells. Stuff like that. So, they're not overwhelmingly godlike any more, and they don't make them pay for it by being useless early on.
Multiclassing is much more balanced. Spellcasters can actually multiclass with non-spellcasting classes and still work OK. Single dips aren't overpowering any more, and the only true 'trap' option is to take only 3 levels in a class and then they lose an Ability Score increase.





I agree with most of Beel's points, but want to highlight/discuss the ones quoted above:

The slow number ramping issue is also referred to as Bounded Accuracy, and his point is right on the money. My last campaign, the party was about twelfth level, and they were scouting an army of mook monsters, numbering about ten thousand. The 3.5e veteran player suggested taking them on, and retreating only to rest/regain spells. He convinced the party. Luckily, the session's time was up before they could act on his plan. I actually had to pull him aside afterward and lay down just how fatally wrong such a plan would be, due to bounded accuracy. It's not just AC. To-hit static bonuses, saving throw bonuses and skill proficiency boosts all follow this rule too.

Spellcasters have been nerfed, yes, but what should be mentioned is that they've been nerfed into balance. They're not OP, but they're not underpowered, either.

Disagree with the three level dip being called a trap: assuming standard point buy or decent-or-better die rolled stats, your last ability score increase/feat selection is often unnecessary icing on the cake for most classes (and that's before you consider the fact that rogues and fighters get more of them than the others):

A three level rogue (assassin) dip for a dex based fighter to get assassinate may seem silly, but with the sharpshooter feat, can potentially negate combat before it begins: SIX attacks at level fourteen (fighter 11/rogue 3) (thanks to fighter's action surge), all critting (assuming you get the surprise).
Likewise, a three level fighter (battlemaster) dip for a rogue (thief) can enable the character to sleight of hand a target's holstered backup weapon, disarm the target's equipped primary weapon (while also attacking), interact with object to kick it away, then laugh if the character gets hit by the 1+str AoO being risked as he walks to target #2.
A three level ranger (hunter) dip for a monk (any) permits both hunter's mark and colossus slayer additional damage dice, plus an additional skill proficiency.
The list could go on.

IMO, the best thing about 5e is that so many classes have situational features. If the thief in the example above is fighting a monster who doesn't use equipment, then they can't be the star of that combat. Likewise for the fighter/assassin who doesn't get a surprise round. BUT, when those situations occur, each character gets a chance to truly shine.

[PhoenixPhyre]

One caution I will add is that the underlying philosophy has changed significantly. Don't expect things to work like they did in 3.5--even most of the defined terms are different. You'd probably be better just acting as a complete newbie from a rules perspective. Keep in mind the role-playing lessons you've learned, but forget the mechanical rules and the ideas that come along with them.

Two big things--first: increased DM adjudication. There isn't a defined rule/table for everything. By design. Nor are there fixed, known-in-advance modifiers for most skill uses. There is no PC/NPC transparency--NPCs (including monsters) generally don't have PC class levels. They're built completely differently. This means you'll have to go with the flow much more than you may be used to. Especially with a DM who is new to TTRPGs in general--just run with it. Give advice at the end of the session in a friendly sort of way.

Second: Skills and skill checks. Be prepared for straight ability checks. Skills may grant proficiency (a scaling number based on your character level) to an ability check, but they're not the same as 3.5. You'll roll them less frequently as many things are either auto-success or auto-fail. The DM is supposed to assume competence. For example, climbing costs double movement unless it's particularly slick (which might take a check). Jumping is a fixed distance, up to your speed. You may have to roll to jump more or land well. Most common things just happen with no roll required. Skill proficiencies aren't the difference between experts and non-experts.

A third, bonus thing--numbers don't stack as high. The d20 is important all the way along.* In part, that's because you're presumed to be competent adventurers, so you should only be rolling for things that are in doubt and where the failure would be interesting.

[Pex]

The most impacted play difference I think you'll find is you can move as far as your speed allows and still do whatever you want to do. There is no 5 ft step. You can even move part of your speed, do something, then move the rest of your speed where ever you want to go. If you play a warrior and get a second attack at 5th level, you get both attacks when you do your action even when you move as far as you want. You are also allowed to move (or not), attack once, move again, take your second attack.

It is something to get used to. I like Pathfinder more than 5E, but this is one instance where I give kudos to 5E over Pathfinder. The freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want is liberating.

[MrFahrenheit]

A third, bonus thing--numbers don't stack as high. The d20 is important all the way along.* In part, that's because you're presumed to be competent adventurers, so you should only be rolling for things that are in doubt and where the failure would be interesting.

This is the other best thing about 5e, which I forgot to mention in my earlier post: you will always find rolling the d20 necessary. Gone are 3.5e's "I succeed on a 2+" feeling I always had no later than level 9 in that edition.

[DanyBallon]

My only advice to a veteran player from older edition, especially 3.P, is also on of the hardest to follow; forget everything you know about playing D&D! Try to get into 5e with a fresh mind, as if you were learning a whole new game. This mindset, will prevent you from having expectations that were common in 3.P but aren't in 5e, also, it will set you at the same level of the new players. Use your experience only to help moving the story forward and to ensure everyone have fun, even if they make mistakes, or if you would have done otherwise based on your experience. And finally, don't let them rely on you as an experienced gamer. Have them participate, give idea, try crazy stuff. 5e is a bit more permissive on this aspect.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This is the other best thing about 5e, which I forgot to mention in my earlier post: you will always find rolling the d20 necessary. Gone are 3.5e's "I succeed on a 2+" feeling I always had no later than level 9 in that edition.

And along with that, critical hits/misses are only a thing for attack rolls in 5e. No more failing an ability check or saving throw on a 1 or succeeding on a 20, at least not automatically. If you have a +9 bonus (higher levels or expertise), you can succeed on a DC 10 (easy) check with a roll of a 1. Or fail a DC 30 check ("very difficult/impossible") on a roll of a 20.

Critical hits are roll the dice twice, add static once. No confirmation roll. Natural ones are just an automatic miss. No other effects (without houserules).

[MrFahrenheit]

And along with that, critical hits/misses are only a thing for attack rolls in 5e. No more failing an ability check or saving throw on a 1 or succeeding on a 20, at least not automatically. If you have a +9 bonus (higher levels or expertise), you can succeed on a DC 10 (easy) check with a roll of a 1. Or fail a DC 30 check ("very difficult/impossible") on a roll of a 20.

Critical hits are roll the dice twice, add static once. No confirmation roll. Natural ones are just an automatic miss. No other effects (without houserules).

A lot of DMs will still auto-succeed/fail non-attack 20s/1s, even so. Don't be surprised if you bring this up to the DM, who house rules it back to the old way.

[Pex]

This is the other best thing about 5e, which I forgot to mention in my earlier post: you will always find rolling the d20 necessary. Gone are 3.5e's "I succeed on a 2+" feeling I always had no later than level 9 in that edition.

That's a personal taste issue, not an edition judgment. I'm quite happy with the ability to never fail something even on a Natural 1. It took real world time and effort plus spending game resources to achieve the ability and now I get to enjoy the fruit of that labor. My character is just that good. There are also Take 10 and Take 20 for skills so there's no need to roll at all.

It can happen in 5E as well, usually when it comes to skills where you don't have to roll and just do whatever it is you want to do depending on DM adjudication. For an always roll, since a Natural 1 is not an autofail on a saving throw a level 6+ paladin with at least 16 CO and CH and Resilient Con feat cannot fail his concentration check on a spell for taking any damage of 21 or less.

[KorvinStarmast]

To make play at the table more understandable, here is the action economy outline.

In each round, you can conceivably have:

Movement (Always unless grappled/restrained, under a "condition" of some sort)
Action (always)
Bonus Action (contingent upon something)
Reaction (Contingent upon skill/class/feature/spell/item, or a different sort of something)
Free interaction with an object (one) (Open door, draw weapon, pick up beer glass ... )

It is well worth your time to get as good of a grip on this as you can.

General point: you get one bonus action, and one reaction (at maximum) per round/turn, based on whether or not you have a skill or other thing that grants one. (there are a variety of cases where you don't get either).

Attacks of Opportunity/Opportunity Attacks are a reaction to someone leaving, not entering, your weapon reach.

Bonus actions: if you could use two, you need to pick one.

There's no Delay, but there is Ready an action, which may preclude some of the above. That one I'd suggest you read over a few times.

Do you have the Players Handbook?

[MrFahrenheit]

That's a personal taste issue, not an edition judgment. I'm quite happy with the ability to never fail something even on a Natural 1. It took real world time and effort plus spending game resources to achieve the ability and now I get to enjoy the fruit of that labor. My character is just that good. There are also Take 10 and Take 20 for skills so there's no need to roll at all.

It can happen in 5E as well, usually when it comes to skills where you don't have to roll and just do whatever it is you want to do depending on DM adjudication. For an always roll, since a Natural 1 is not an autofail on a saving throw a level 6+ paladin with at least 16 CO and CH and Resilient Con feat cannot fail his concentration check on a spell for taking any damage of 21 or less.

I suppose. Been a long time since I played 3.5.

Anyhow, one really important thing: if your DM never hands out any gold, or new items (magic or mundane) after level one, that's boring...but ok. So much in 5e is dependent upon class features and the characters themselves. Due to bounded accuracy, you won't find yourself NEEDING a +1/2/etc item as the campaign progresses, unlike in earlier editions where it could be nearly impossible to hit something if the game moved forward without.

[CursedRhubarb]

Another very big difference between 3.0/3.5 and 5e is Magic Items. In 3.0/3.5 they were practically a requirement to have X many of items giving specific boosts by certain levels, or be completely useless or simply unable to hit, or avoid being hit. In 5e you can go from lvl 1 to lvl 20 with just your starting items, other than consumables.
The highest bonus a magic item will get is a +3 and these tend to be extremely rare or legendary items due to the way Bounded Accuracy works.
Bags of Holding have a weight limit, unless your DM waves this, and if I remember right it's only 500lbs. That can fill up fast but also prevents shenanigans like having an ocean of water in the bag.
The more powerful items require "attunement" and you can only have a max of 3 items attuned to you at a time. There are items that don't require this that you can still use with the 3 spots filled.
Many magic items have changed from what they were in older editions, still close but will want to double check if you get any.
And then many items are not in 5e (yet) and some may be new.

[Pelle]

A lot of DMs will still auto-succeed/fail non-attack 20s/1s, even so. Don't be surprised if you bring this up to the DM, who house rules it back to the old way.

Isn't this what the rules tell you to do, though? If you can't possibly fail or succeed (on nat1/20), you shouldn't be rolling in the first place... Sure, if the DM doesn't know the +bonus it can happen, but would still feel anti-climatic though. Also for saves possibly...

[Willie the Duck]

One caution I will add is that the underlying philosophy has changed significantly. Don't expect things to work like they did in 3.5--even most of the defined terms are different. You'd probably be better just acting as a complete newbie from a rules perspective. Keep in mind the role-playing lessons you've learned, but forget the mechanical rules and the ideas that come along with them.


I think this is the most important thing to take away. The base assumptions are going to be different-- but sometimes they will use the same terms as something else.

The biggest example for me and my group, and the hardest thing to get used to: the underlying philosophy regarding saving throws has changed. You are not expected to make all your saves. And stranger still for us, that's okay. There really aren't fail-a-single-save-and-die-scenarios in this edition, and most of the save-or-sucks have some other limiter on them (such as get a new save every round to break them, effect ends if you take damage, or similar). There's still some legitimate complaint that the save math isn't as good as it could be, but for the most part the problem is shifting your expectations, which is hard to do.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think this is the most important thing to take away. The base assumptions are going to be different-- but sometimes they will use the same terms as something else.

The biggest example for me and my group, and the hardest thing to get used to: the underlying philosophy regarding saving throws has changed. You are not expected to make all your saves. And stranger still for us, that's okay. There really aren't fail-a-single-save-and-die-scenarios in this edition, and most of the save-or-sucks have some other limiter on them (such as get a new save every round to break them, effect ends if you take damage, or similar). There's still some legitimate complaint that the save math isn't as good as it could be, but for the most part the problem is shifting your expectations, which is hard to do. Another reason for someone to keep Bless going during combat. :).

[Willie the Duck]

Another reason for someone to keep Bless going during combat. :).

Or paladin 6 nearby, or bard at hand. A lot of things have suddenly become quite useful.
I just wanted to point out that a 3.0/3.5/PF player who jumps into a 5e game is going to feel orifices clench a lot when they hear, "you failed your save," before realizing that they are indeed okay and they don't need to reach for a new blank character sheet.

[MajorDefunction]

I just want to give my 2 cents. First of all you should of course (as everyone already stated :)) have fun! Second, since you're the experienced person try to help the other people shine. Mostly so they get what's it all about. Which in return will provide you with a stable group to come back to play with :)

Rule wise, not much. This is my first edition playing D&D ever and it all was really straight forward after 1-2 sessions.

[Kane0]

Gonna copy/paste my response from another thread on the same topic:

- Proficiency bonus is used for skill/ability checks, attacks and saving throws instead of BAB, save progressions and skill points. It's all based off Stat + Proficiency, and the numbers are lower and scale slower. HP and abilities/options are the primary differentiation between low and high levels.
- You have a saving throw type for each attribute.
- You can't have a stat higher than 20 by normal means, nor a stat higher than 30 by any means.
- Movement is not an action, and actions can happen between movement. Bonus actions are like swifts, reactions are like immediates. No action can be traded for another type. You can also make one interaction (grab a weapon, open a door, etc) per turn for free.
- You cannot delay, only ready an action.
- Only one thing provokes an AoO: Moving out of a creatures reach.
- Learn the advantage / disadvantage mechanic, it replaces 90% of fiddly +1s and +2s.
- Concentration is a thing you need to know well. Most buffs, debuffs and control need concentration, and you can concentrate on one thing at a time. You have a chance to lose concentration each time you take damage.
- All casting is 'spontaneous', though the list of spells available for you to choose from may change based on how your class handles it.
- There are two kinds of rest: short and long. There is expected to be two short rests for every long on average, which is important to maintain balance short rest classes (monk, warlock) against long rest classes (paladin, sorcerer).
- Encounter design is also different. A CR 6 enemy is a medium challenge for a level 6 party of 4, not a medium challenge for a single level 6 character. You are expected to deal with half a dozen or so medium encounters on an adventuring day, not one or two hard ones.
- Everybody can heal via hit die, which are spent during short rests.
- Dying works differently. You only die outright when you take damage equal to your max HP in one hit after reaching 0. When reduced to 0 you make saving throws, three successes stabilizes you and 3 failures you die. Taking damage while making death saves counts as one failure.
- Damage resistance, reduction and vulnerability is simplified. It's half damage, doesn't exist (as such) and double damage respectively.
- Don't use any optional rules to start with. This includes multiclassing and feats.
- The core math of the game does not expect you to get magic items by default. You can play through levels 1 to 20 without seeing a magic item at all, anything you get/give is a bonus.
- Levels 1-3 are supposed to go by very quickly, and 4-5 fairly quickly. The majority of PC time is angled to be spent in the level 6-11 range.
- Due to reduced scaling of basic numbers (skills, attacks, damage, AC) it is expected that low CR creatures remain a threat to higher level parties in significant numbers. This is intended.

Golden Rule: Thou shalt not assume to know that which shares a name
Sneak attack works differently. Protection from Evil works differently. Critical hits work differently. Do not skim over things that look familiar because they are almost all different in subtle ways that become very apparent in play.

[SirElfinJedi]

There's been a lot of great advice already. For me, the beautiful thing about 5e when compared to 3.5 is that it's simple - both as a DM and player. As a player, you feel powerful right out of the gate. As a DM, you can prep with a lot less time.

I loved the versatility of 3.5, but I haven't missed it.

[Unoriginal]

Don't expect to be able to mow down hordes of enemies effortlessly, even if they're low CR. Number is a significant tactical advantage, which is why a boss monster with two goons is far more dangerous than a boss monster alone.

Also, don't go in expecting Initiative to be king.

[strangebloke]

People like to say that 5e is simpler. From a strategic perspective, it certainly is. You don't need to worry about having all the right spells/magic items before fighting the undead bears, or whatever. Each individual round takes a lot less time. But while things are a little simpler, mostly I'd just say that the game is tighter.

In 3e, theoretical optimization could pretty much achieve any theoretical effect that you could conceive of. Highest number of attacks? Millions. Highest Damage per round? Absurd. In 5e, theoretical optimization is usually within 50% of baseline optimization. A theoretically optimized bladesinger with the shield spell has ~30 AC, but a sword and board fighter has 21. There aren't really any practical ways to kill things without reducing hit points to zero. Save or die spells don't exist.

As a result, the impact of each action is overall much lower, so you'll be taking a lot more actions. Therefore, the benefits of something like good positioning are much more important. Moreover, resource management for casters becomes pretty intense on long adventuring days.