Greenbound Inspiration: SNA+DFI?

[eversilentone]

Hi there, I'm wondering if I can get help. I'm looking to find a way for plant creatures to be affected by bardic music.

The concept is essentially:

* Savage Bard to get Summon Nature's Ally
* Greenbound Summonning for uber buffs
* Take Forestlord Half-Elf for Dragonfire Inspiration and Half-Elf substitution levels

However, I can't find a way for bardic music to affect plants. Can it be done? I know there's Requiem to let it affect undead, but I can't find anything for plants? I've found Music of Growth but I can't see that would allow DFI?

Thanks in anticipation!

[Elrak]

The feat "Green Ear" from Complete Adventurer lets you alter bardic music to affect (only) plants when you use it.

[eversilentone]

Perfect, thank you!

[Nifft]

You can also get the effect of Green Ear by taking 5 levels of the Green Whisperer PrC, which is a 5-level dual-advancement class for Druid + Bard (found in Dragon #311), and an excellent prep for Fochlucan Lyrist.

[Buufreak]

You can also get the effect of Green Ear by taking 5 levels of the Green Whisperer PrC, which is a 5-level dual-advancement class for Druid + Bard (found in Dragon #311), and an excellent prep for Fochlucan Lyrist.

You sure about that? The only version I'm finding progresses bard only.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You sure about that? The only version I'm finding progresses bard only.
Definitely advances both, and those classes specifically. It doesn't seem to increase caster level, but I'm putting that down to an editorial mistake (as I do for all classes that forget to advance CL along with spell slots/spells known).

[Zsaber0]

https://i.gyazo.com/407b13a2f278cbf70863283d83bb3932.png

On original printing in dragon magazine it does indeed advance both bard and druid.

[Buufreak]

https://i.gyazo.com/407b13a2f278cbf70863283d83bb3932.png

On original printing in dragon magazine it does indeed advance both bard and druid.

Interesting. I had just looked up a bootleg from realms, it seemed to be painfully lacking comparatively.

[Zsaber0]

Interesting. I had just looked up a bootleg from realms, it seemed to be painfully lacking comparatively.

I don't know if posting the class info is against the rules since it's from Dragon Magazine, so I went with just a crop scan of the spell progression. But yes, the one on realms is oddly lacking.

[Buufreak]

I don't know if posting the class info is against the rules since it's from Dragon Magazine, so I went with just a crop scan of the spell progression. But yes, the one on realms is oddly lacking.

Good call, erroring towards not. I'll find it somewhere. Sadly it is distinctly druid, so I can't ranger 2/ bard/ gw 5/ fl 10.

[Nifft]

Yeah it's specifically just Druid and Bard, but in combo with Fochlucan Lyrist, you get +15 to both. However, neither of these PrCs will advance Wild Shape, so this is one of the unusual situations where trading away Wild Shape is optimal. That opens up a bunch of usually-ignored ACFs.

The entry to Green Whisperer is flexible enough that you can pick basically any combo of Druid and Bard levels for your first 5, so you could go Bard 1 / Druid 4 or Druid 1 / Bard 4 or anything in between. Since Bards acquire 6th level spells at level 16, you are going to have access to all levels of Bard spells even if you go Druid 4.

Should you go Druid 4? It's pretty strong. You lose out on 2 skill points per non-Bard level, but you gain access to ACFs like Iron Constitution (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) from the Cityscape WE.

Getting into FL you also need Evasion, so you may want to spend your 3rd and 6th level feats on Shape Soulmeld (impulse boots) and Open Least Chakra (feet), respectively.

[Buufreak]

Getting into FL you also need Evasion, so you may want to spend your 3rd and 6th level feats on Shape Soulmeld (impulse boots) and Open Least Chakra (feet), respectively.

And it leaves such a filthy taste in my mouth. I hate that this is everyone's best solution to the class. I'm not saying it is wrong, or wrong to do. It just tastes so filthy to me. Call me a sucker for elegance, I guess.

[Zsaber0]

What if you were to insert 1 level of Sublime Chord in there? Like Druid 1/Bard4/Green Whisperer 3/sublime chord 1/Green whisperer 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 9. Is that good since it could get you better spell progresstion for bards?

[ExLibrisMortis]

What if you were to insert 1 level of Sublime Chord in there? Like Druid 1/Bard4/Green Whisperer 3/sublime chord 1/Green whisperer 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 9. Is that good since it could get you better spell progresstion for bards?
It is, SC is basically always an upgrade to a bard build that can fit it in, at least in terms of power (whether you really need that power, and whether it suits your concept, is another matter). Don't forget SC requires 13 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), so you'd enter as druid + bard 5/GW 5/SC 1/FL 9.

[Troacctid]

Note that you don't need any Druid for Green Whisperer. You can enter as a single-class Bard and get full Bard advancement while also adding 5 free levels of Druid casting. You won't be able to continue it with Fochlucan Lyrist, but hey.

[Nifft]

And it leaves such a filthy taste in my mouth. I hate that this is everyone's best solution to the class. I'm not saying it is wrong, or wrong to do. It just tastes so filthy to me. Call me a sucker for elegance, I guess.

Eh, at least this build isn't trying to wedge Wizard or Cleric casting into Fochlucan Lyrist.

Also, it's not trying to use a Ring to qualify -- you actually inherently meet the prerequisite, which is a step up in my opinion.

[Buufreak]

Eh, at least this build isn't trying to wedge Wizard or Cleric casting into Fochlucan Lyrist.

Also, it's not trying to use a Ring to qualify -- you actually inherently meet the prerequisite, which is a step up in my opinion.

Agreed, but I still dislike it. Just less than item reliance. Just imagine losing an entire class thanks to a AMF.

[eversilentone]

I was just looking for a summon and buff build, ideally single classed. FL is great albeit entry is a pain, but I was looking for something that was effective at around levels 7-10 and was a bit different.

[Buufreak]

Ah. Then we may have derailed a bit. Apologies.

[Nifft]

I was just looking for a summon and buff build, ideally single classed. FL is great albeit entry is a pain, but I was looking for something that was effective at around levels 7-10 and was a bit different.

Green Whisperer ought to be usable to you -- and the whole build including FL is very simple, with no particular wrangling -- but it assumes that you are both the summoner of the plant-monsters and also the DFI singer.

Once you hit level 10, you may want to retrain once you get the Green Ear class feature (since it duplicates the Green Ear feat). HOWEVER, note that Green Ear has a pretty tough prerequisite:


Prerequisite

Perform (any) 10 ranks, bardic music

... which means you can't have it until level 7 at the earliest, and your next available feat is at level 9, so if you take the Green Ear feat you're basically getting the class feature one level early but paying a feat for it. Ouch. Certainly not valid to have at level 7, unless you can arrange for an unconventional bonus feat somehow.


IMHO the main issue with Savage Bard are:
- You don't have many slots. You can't spam SNA like a Druid.
- Your slots are lower level. This usually isn't a problem because you get your core spells at lower spell levels than other casters (e.g. suggestion is level 2 for a Bard, level 3 for a Wizard). But that doesn't apply to Summon Monster, nor does it apply to SNA.

Bard spells are great when you can use one to significantly change an encounter. For example: Inspirational Boost. This gives you an extra +1 to your Inspire Courage, and one slot lasts the whole encounter.

Another example: Glibness. One casting can avoid an encounter, or give you the NPC trust you need to put your party in a much better tactical position.


IMHO the absolute best thing you could do is not do everything yourself. Optimal performance would be:
- You, a Bard with a Green Ear (feat or feature, doesn't matter).
- Your friend, a Druid with Greenbound Summoning.

You might be able to do this via Leadership (and as a Bard you'll have a high Leadership score), if you can't find a friend.


But if you want to do both things yourself, then a good build might go something like...

Silverbrow Human

Level 1: Bard 1
* L1 Feat: Dragonfire Inspiration
* L1 Human Bonus Feat: Extra Music

Level 2: Druid 1

Level 3: Druid 2
* L3 Feat: Greenbound Summonning

Level 4: Druid 3

Level 5: Bard 2
- b1 spell: Inspirational Boost

Level 6: Green Whisperer 1
* L6 Feat: Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots)
+ Spellcasting: Bard 3, Druid 4

Level 7: Green Whisperer 2
+ Spellcasting: Bard 4, Druid 5

Level 8: Green Whisperer 3
+ Spellcasting: Bard 5, Druid 6

Level 9: Green Whisperer 4
* L9 Feat: Open Least Chakra (feet)
+ Spellcasting: Bard 6, Druid 7

Level 10: Green Whisperer 5
+ Green Ear
+ Spellcasting: Bard 7, Druid 8

Level 11: Fochlucan Lyrist 1
+ Spellcasting: Bard 8, Druid 9

[eversilentone]

No worries, discussion is also good - I guess I more meant that I was hoping to explore along that theme - to me FL is something different with the full BAB and double spell casting but clearly significantly more powerful; and that power, I think, draws you in other directions. Also I hate the Incarnum stuff and Ring of Evasion cheese - without those it's a PITA to enter.

Green Whisperer is interesting and as you say, even single class puts you only a level behind with a few levels of Druid casting. Dragon Magazine isn't usually allowed in my group, but it's niche enough it might be permitted, hence looking for a feat in a mainstream book (core for us is PHB, DMG, MM (all), SC and the Complete series).

I thought that Greenbound Summonning is powerful enough that having it unbuffed at earlier levels is useful, and unlike Druid a Savage Bard still has the social stuff, UMD, etc, as well as "normal" DFI at earlier levels. But most games I play top out at level 10 or so, so FL isn't something I'm likely to get to play with.

[Eldariel]

Green Whisperer ought to be usable to you -- and the whole build including FL is very simple, with no particular wrangling -- but it assumes that you are both the summoner of the plant-monsters and also the DFI singer.

Once you hit level 10, you may want to retrain once you get the Green Ear class feature (since it duplicates the Green Ear feat). HOWEVER, note that Green Ear has a pretty tough prerequisite:

... which means you can't have it until level 7 at the earliest, and your next available feat is at level 9, so if you take the Green Ear feat you're basically getting the class feature one level early but paying a feat for it. Ouch. Certainly not valid to have at level 7, unless you can arrange for an unconventional bonus feat somehow.

Normally I wouldn't endorse this but in this particular case it seems like the only reasonable option. You can get Green Ear on level 6 with Primary Contact + Favored [Cityscape], which I think is vindicated for use and investment in this case (though feat hungry enough that you definitely should use Flaws and Eberron Bard Bardic Music Trading to get more feats enabling you to manage). Sadly you basically are down to Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle otherwise, or skipping a level of Bard to shuffle around bonus feats on 7. But yeah, Favored's bonus rank (or just some Inspire Greatness/other bonus HD stuff) is what I'd use since it's fair and it doesn't break anything and it enables your concept much earlier, early enough for it to be viable.

[Zsaber0]

Do remember the feat green ear and the class ability is different. The feat changes basic music to ONLY work on plants. The class abilities allow basic music to also affect plants. I don't know if this changes anything, but it's good to know.

[Nifft]

Do remember the feat green ear and the class ability is different. The feat changes basic music to ONLY work on plants. The class abilities allow basic music to also affect plants. I don't know if this changes anything, but it's good to know.

That's a bit misleading.

The feat allows you to change any specific use of Bardic Music to only influence plants -- you can still use Bardic Music to influence non-plants by not choosing to change the ability when you use it.

However your larger point -- that the feature is different from the feat -- is valid and very good.

[Troacctid]

Green Whisperer is interesting and as you say, even single class puts you only a level behind with a few levels of Druid casting.
Not even a level behind. You just get full progression, basically for free. It's a powerful class.

[eversilentone]

Not even a level behind. You just get full progression, basically for free. It's a powerful class.

A level behind because you have to take a level of Druid, no? Or else waste that part, which feels worse than losing a Bard caster level lol

[ExLibrisMortis]

A level behind because you have to take a level of Druid, no? Or else waste that part, which feels worse than losing a Bard caster level lol
Well... normally, that's what you do, but not in this case. Most PrCs grant you "+1 level of some class you had before", which refers to no specific class until you actually take a class. Green Whisperer grants "+1 level of druid", which is specific, so it can grant casting even when you don't have other classes.

[Buufreak]

Well now I'm curious. It provides +1 bard and +1 druid, plus bardic music. What if you entered as straight druid, do you suddenly gain bard casting and music, as 0+1=1?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well now I'm curious. It provides +1 bard and +1 druid, plus bardic music. What if you entered as straight druid, do you suddenly gain bard casting and music, as 0+1=1?
No. The bardic music-advancing ability specifies that you must have it to progress it. You would gain bard casting.

[Buufreak]

No. The bardic music-advancing ability specifies that you must have it to progress it. You would gain bard casting.

So my build idea works..? Some bard, 2 ranger, and this would get the arcane, divine, music, and evasion. Then it becomes do you advance ranger's eventual casting or the bootleg druid?

Edit to clarify: advance casting coming from FL after GW.

[Nifft]

A level behind because you have to take a level of Druid, no? Or else waste that part, which feels worse than losing a Bard caster level lol
Many DMs would indeed require you to have at least one level of Druid for "+1 Druid" to do anything.

Personally I'd aim for 1-3 levels of Druid anyway -- at 2 levels of Druid, you'd get 9th level spells by ECL 20, instead of merely 8th level spells.

You also get perks like spontaneously converting Druid slots into SNA (which you would lack unless you have an actual level of Druid), and also you learn to speak the secret Druid language -- which you need for Fochlucan Lyrist.


So my build idea works..? Some bard, 2 ranger, and this would get the arcane, divine, music, and evasion. Then it becomes do you advance ranger's eventual casting or the bootleg druid?

Edit to clarify: advance casting coming from FL after GW.

You'd need 9 levels of Ranger to get Evasion.

Your build seems kinda wasteful.

[Buufreak]

... Was it? I'm terribly misremembering. I'll look it all over again when at a pc.

[ExLibrisMortis]

... Was it? I'm terribly misremembering. I'll look it all over again when at a pc.
Ranger is not monk or rogue (for better or for worse), it gets evasion at 9.

As for the other thing: I'm not sure you can progress Green Whisperer casting with Fochlucan Lyrist, but I'd tentatively say yes. You couldn't apply the casting to druid levels (because you have none), but Green Whisperer is a divine casting class in its own right, because it provides druid(-stacking/equivalent) casting to characters without casting ability. Green Whisperer grants casting at every level, so you can progress that past 5--the same reasoning used for extending PrCs with Legacy Champion. (Fun fact: the Mind Mage description separately spells out all levels you get casting at, so it can't be extended in any way :smallfrown:.)

N.B. Nifft gives some excellent reasons to take a level in druid, so I don't recommend going pure GW, especially if you're wasting levels to get Evasion anyway.

[Buufreak]

Ranger is not monk or rogue (for better or for worse), it gets evasion at 9.

As for the other thing: I'm not sure you can progress Green Whisperer casting with Fochlucan Lyrist, but I'd tentatively say yes. You couldn't apply the casting to druid levels (because you have none), but Green Whisperer is a divine casting class in its own right, because it provides druid(-stacking/equivalent) casting to characters without casting ability. Green Whisperer grants casting at every level, so you can progress that past 5--the same reasoning used for extending PrCs with Legacy Champion. (Fun fact: the Mind Mage description separately spells out all levels you get casting at, so it can't be extended in any way :smallfrown:.)

N.B. Nifft gives some excellent reasons to take a level in druid, so I don't recommend going pure GW, especially if you're wasting levels to get Evasion anyway.

Okay, yea. That's what I get for late night boarding. I confused ranger with rogue.

As to the power trade off, I don't mind for a flavorful character. The forum's world might revolve around 9ths, but mine doesn't.