Building TWF with homebrew rule

[B0nes]

My DM allows the bonus action attack to instead be an extra attack (in addition to the extra attack feature) as part of the action, providing the character has the dual wielder fighting style. What classes or multiclass would make an effective character (compared to GWF or SnB) with this homebrew, and does this ruling fix the biggest issues with dual wielding in your opinion?

[Toofey]

I go back and forth on this, mainly because my high school character was Dual Wield Cheese I am sometimes tempted to take the brakes off the system in a number of ways, and you can't really change this rule much without making it the best way to go (as it was for certain characters in the previous systems)

But when I do start thinking about messing with the system to make it feel more epic in general, I look at doing as you do OR keeping the book rule but giving people 2 off hand attacks once they get their third normal attack. But as I said, this is a big increase in damage and is unrealistic when compared to real world circumstances (the 2nd being a flavor concern more than anything else)

[Easy_Lee]

Extra attacks are strong, which is why WotC had such trouble balancing TWF in the first place. TWF is very powerful at levels 1 and 2 for that reason. This won't affect fighters very much, but would be a big deal for rogues and Rangers.

I suggest this instead: allow TWF characters to swing both weapons at once for a combined attack. One attack roll, combined damage die, mod to damage once. Make this the default TWF, change the fighting style to allow non-light weapons, and change the feat to be +1 AC and +1 strength or dexterity, or add the bonus attack to the feat if you really want to (though bonus action attack feats tend to be very powerful, fair warning).

This makes TWF a compelling option, and keeps it on the same track as everything else. A fighter's best TWF attack becomes 2D8, which is not significantly different from a great weapon with the great weapon fighting style. TWF becomes an appealing option for Rangers who can now use their spells with it.

[Kryx]

TWF is very powerful at levels 1 and 2 for that reason.
You've said this a few times, but at levels 1-3 TWF has the best balance against GWM and PAM. It is in the perfect range of expected damage (~95% of a greatsword) until feats come online.

In another thread you also mentioned that TWF should have a niche. I fully agree that TWF should have a niche and that's why I would recommend people not use the idea you suggest above. Treating two attacks as one is making TWF a carbon copy of a greatsword. It removes the niche.

@OP: Extra attack effectively removes the bonus action which is, imo, absolutely required for classes like Ranger for example. Adding the ability modifier makes it a bit too powerful until GWM gets it's feat, but it should be ok as levels 1-3 speed by very quickly.

Ranger with twf is my personal preference. Perhaps a fighter if you prefer a bit more martial. Rogue always works great with TWF as well, so it all depends on your preference.

[Easy_Lee]

Being able to use a variety of weapons with different properties (reach, thrown, etc.) and the potential for two magic weapons is a decent niche for TWF, if it was only competitive on damage.

[Lombra]

Bonding together the two attacks would result in a loss for TWF imo, because now you can't attack two separate targets in your turn, which may be relevant if you want to run away from a bad sutuation with mobile for example. Maybe make a bonded attack and a bonus action attack? That would make it way too powerful in the first levels tho... no wonders the designers struggled with the mechanic, personally I like that TWF isn't the go-to dps option, it never felt right to me.

[Easy_Lee]

Bonding together the two attacks would result in a loss for TWF imo, because now you can't attack two separate targets in your turn, which may be relevant if you want to run away from a bad sutuation with mobile for example. Maybe make a bonded attack and a bonus action attack? That would make it way too powerful in the first levels tho... no wonders the designers struggled with the mechanic, personally I like that TWF isn't the go-to dps option, it never felt right to me.

Well, it isn't the go-to more attacks option either, because of the existence of bonus action attack feats. Since those feats allow the player to add mod to the bonus action attack, they effectively add the TWF fighting style when those weapons are used.

Taking a rogue as an example, he can either TWF without the fighting style, or take crossbow expert and have effectively the same thing as TWF with the style. As another example, a fighter could TWF, or he could use a polearm, take GWF style, and take polearm master to basically also have all the benefits of the TWF style at the same time.

A combined attack would make TWF mechanically the same as other weapon styles, with the niche that you get two weapons, potentially with different properties. For example, dagger + shortsword on a rogue lets the rogue throw the dagger when it's beneficial. Whip + longsword gives a fighter two effective ranges. That's interesting, and opens up a wider pool of weapons. The biggest downside to polearm master is its lack of weapons, so this is a big deal, especially for AL.

I'm short, the developers made TWF function differently from every other weapon style. I don't think they ought to have done that.

[Rebonack]

I'm a fan of adding 'can draw two weapons at once' to the fighting style and 'extra attack instead of bonus action' to the feat.

Giving Extra Attack as a fighting style is a bit too strong, IMO. It's about on par with the other good fighting style mastery feats, though.

[Easy_Lee]

I'm a fan of adding 'can draw two weapons at once' to the fighting style and 'extra attack instead of bonus action' to the feat.

That would be better, and would work well for rogues and rangers. But pure fighters still wouldn't have much reason to TWF, since they don't have as many uses for their bonus action as rangers and rogues. Other styles would still be better for them, as in other weapon feats would still add more capability.

As far as simple improvements, this is good but doesn't fix the fighter issue.

[strangebloke]

If you want it to have a niche, don't focus on DPR.

"Two-Weapon-Fighting: You add your ability modifier to damage on the attack you make as a bonus action. If you hit a target with the attack granted by your bonus action, you can use your reaction to grant an ally advantage on attacks against that target until the end of your next turn."

So it might be a sharpshooting battlemaster that actually brings the pain, but it was you that gave him the ability to do it.

[MeeposFire]

My option has been this.

1. Characters get one object interaction equal to the number of attacks they can make with an attack action. They also gain a new set whenever they get an additional action that is used as an attack action. Lastly you can draw two two weapons with one object interaction so long as they are both drawn a the same time. (this fixes throwing weapons and gives weapon using a characters a small bonus in how they can interact with items and objects which I feel is a niche for a tool user).

2. Two weapon fighting style is changed so that it allows you to wield two non-light weapons for two weapon fighting (like the feat). This puts it roughly in line with other fighting styles (I believe ahead of the great weapon fighting style but behind dueling) averaging just over 1 point of damage per attack (critical get larger hence why it is just over 1 damage per attack).

3. When a character gains the extra attack ability they gain attribute bonus to damage with their off hand attack.

4. Two weapon fighting no longer requires a bonus action. You can attack with your off hand once every time you use your action to make a weapon attack on your turn. This equalizes the action economy and allows for two weapon fighting to gain the same benefits as other styles from things like haste, weapon cantrips, and action surge.

5. The feat now gives you some new benefits these are 1. AC bonus 2. when you use the attack action on your turn you can use a bonus action to make an additional attack with your offhand weapon and 3. when you make an opportunity attack you make an attack with your main and offhand weapons.


I think this puts two weapon fighting close enough to other fighting styles with the same investment (up to one feat and a fighting style) that it is worth while and fixes it so that it effective for all the classes that would likely want it like the fighter.

[Nidgit]

What about a Fighter 2/Bard X multiclass? Go Valor and hit three times per turn plus a bonus spell, or go Lore and still be a competent attacker.

[B0nes]

Thanks for all the input guys! I'm thinking of making something like a fighter 3 (battlemaster or samurai)/monk x (kensei), which I think would be pretty cool flavor wise by using multiple types of weapons and also staying competitive with GWM or PAM builds.

[Kane0]

Freeing up your Bonus Action when TWFing means you want to pick a class that makes heavy use of Bonus Actions. Rogues and monks use them a lot, as do Frenzy Barbs and anything with PAM though you'll need at least a level of fighter for the fighting style. Warlocks, Rangers and smite spell Paladins less so but are valid choices, especially given the Fighting Style requirement.