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View Full Version : Informal Survey: RPGs & VGs



GreatWyrmGold
2017-08-14, 11:40 AM
My curiosity has been piqued, and I'd like to satisfy it. So I'd like to ask all you gamers out there a few questions.

1. What do you think of video games (VGs)?
2. What do you think of tabletop RPGs (TRPGs)?
3. How do you think VGs and TRPGs compare to one another?
4. Is there anything you think VGs should learn from TRPGs?
5. Is there anything you think TRPGs should learn from VGs?

Please be as brief or as detailed as you desire, so long as your thoughts are complete. To keep this survey as unbiased as possible, I would like to request that responses be placed in marked spoiler tags, similar to the following:

Response

1. That puppy is mean.
2. I like ice cream.
3. Green songs are the smelliest.
4. Antidisestablishmentarianism.
5. My hovercraft is full of eels.


I would also like to request that, if you feel the need to discuss your answers, others' answers, or something else, to please keep it in separate spoiler tags.

Whether or not you choose to participate in the survey, thank you all for your time.

Chimera245
2017-08-14, 04:51 PM
0. I'm going to assume that your intent here is focused on VG RPGs and not all video games in general, since you're focusing on tabletop RPGs and not other genres of board games. The rest of my answers will be from this perspective.

1. That is a very vague question. "It is a game that happens on a video game console/computer." is the only response I can give that I feel confidently represents my thoughts.

2. Ditto. "It is a roleplaying game that happens on a tabletop."

3. To be honest, they're fairly incomperable. There are limitations of computers, including VG consoles, that limit and shape how a game is designed, as well as strengths and advantages that a VG can make use of, which also shape how it is designed. Likewise, TRPGs also have strengths and weaknesses that shape how they are designed. As such, they give off vastly different experiences.

VGRPGs can calculate your stats for you, generate random numbers for you, and handle all the number-crunching so that you can focus solely on making decisions for your character. I know that whenever I have to roll initiative in a TRPG, all the tension of the impending combat gets drowned out by the roll-call of dice-generated initiative scores, and the wait as the DM does the same for the monsters, and then assembles them all into a list. VGs can figure out what order everyone acts in, and who goes first so quickly and behind-the scenes, that it's easy to forget it happens at all. And the ability to represent your character, enemies, environments, etc. visually, is infinitely better than what you can accomplish at the tabletop, even with the most enthusiastic and artistically-capable of DMs.

TRPGs on the other hand, are not tied down by the programming which creates them, the way VGRPGs are. You can ignore or change rules no one at the table likes. You can create new houserules from scratch. You can inject new content into the game on the fly. The DM can organically react to their players, shaping the campaign around them. Also, and this is possibly the biggest advantage of TRPGs, you aren't limited in how you make choices for your character. VGs typically allow you to control where your character walks, where and which kinds of attacks they launch, what dialog choices they make when specifically prompted to, and how to set up their equipment and abilities. But in TRPGs, the sky is the limit. You can decide every facet of your character's actions, without needing a programmer to conceive of the possibility you might want to make it first. You can flip the bird to the king. You can use telekinesis to pull the enemy archer's arrows out of his quiver. you can decide to team up with the army general instead of defeating him.

Some of these things are hard limits that the system simply isn't able to allow, and some of these are things that are merely very difficult, and not usually worth it. Which transitions well into the next two questions.

4. "Is there anything you think VGs should learn from TRPGs?" Yes and no. A lot of what VGs don't do, but which is fun about TRPGs stems solely from inability. Every single thing your character can do in a VG, a programmer had to put there, months or years before you ever picked it up and played it. But that's not to say that they can't take the lessons of TRPGs and implement them in different ways. I think a better phrase would be "VGs should take inspiration from TRPGs." If there is one single area that I believe VGs lack, but they shouldn't, it's the "get four or five friends together" area. There are a million single-player RPGs, and there are a million MMORPGs, but relatively few RPGs for just you and a few friends. Other genres do this commonly. Fighting games, party games, platformers, sandbox games, a million others. But relatively few RPGs do it. In fact the only examples I can think of are Secret of Mana for the SNES, which allows 3 players, and Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles for the Gamecube, which allows 4. (Technically, some versions of Final Fantasies 4, 5, 6, and 9 allowed two players, but that was only for giving commands to characters in combat. Player 2 is a mere spectator at all other times.)

5. "Is there anything you think TRPGs should learn from VGs?" is a very similar question, but the answer isn't exactly the same. The limits of pen and paper are very different from the limits of computers. "TRPGs should take inspiration from VGs." still stands, but it's sometimes easier to back-port VG features into TRPGs. As long a a human can do the math on the fly, there's no reason it can't be added into a tabletop game somehow. Wish D&D had Portalguns? Add them in. Wish D&D had Moogles and Chocobos? Add them in. Wish D&D had floating powerups that come out of broken crates? Add them in. The things that TRPGs can't handle, which computers can are things like real-time combat, or procedurally-generated worlds and dungeons. Things that are impossible for humans to calculate on their own, like the former, and things that are incredibly time-consuming, which bog down the game, like the latter.

6. While I've answered all the questions, there's still one thing I'd like to note and discuss. VTTs.

Virtual Tabletops are a gray area between Tabletop RPGs and Videogame RPGs. They were made for playing TRPGs across the internet, or at least without so much physical clutter, even if your friends are all at the same house. But with their creation, some of the advantages of computers can now be applied to TRPGs. For example, if your VTT of choice has the ability, you can automate dice rolls. The issue of slowing down the action in order to get everyone's initiative scores can be solved with one well-designed macro, which executes at the click of a button. Instead of making do with whatever miniatures are available at hand to represent your character, The entirety of Google Image Search, plus your own artistic capability are your selection of miniature. Getting a group together to play now becomes as easy as organizing a raid in an MMO.

And while existing TRPGs can certainly benefit greatly from this new technology, the thing that I feel is still severely lacking, are RPGs that are DESIGNED for VTTs. Ones that allow its game mechanics to have severely complicated execution, which would have prohibited them from being played at an actual tabletop, can now become viable things. Imagine a game with a class-change system like Final Fantasy Tactics. Or a game where the spells you prepared would alter your stats. Or a game that had a massive number of subordinate characters, like persistent summoned minions, which could be dismissed and replaced at will. If the overwhelming majority of your characters stats changed every time you took a relatively mundane action in the game world, The game would be unplayable at tabletop, and in trying, you'd make a horrible mess of constantly-erased pencil smudges on your character sheet. But in a VTT, such changes can be made automatic.

And yet, for as long as VTTs have existed, I haven't heard of a single game system created to work within them and play to the strengths of the platform. THAT is where the lessons of both VGs and TRPGs need to be learned.

Psyren
2017-08-14, 05:04 PM
1) Love 'em.

2) Love 'em.

3) They have different strengths and weaknesses. For TTRPGs the main one is that you're not constrained by code. For VRPGs the main one is that you can have many players dividing your "GM's" attention simultaneously, and perfect rules memory/adjudication.

4) I think it's less about them learning from each other and more about each one using its medium effectively. VRPGs are better at building worlds that don't revolve around the party's actions, and where the party can split up without each person needing attention paid to them. TTRPGs are better at crafting worlds where you can do things that the designer couldn't plan for, or that would be costly to implement.

5) See above.

And seconding Chimera's comments on Virtual Tabletops - it's a brave new world!

DeTess
2017-08-14, 05:12 PM
1. I enjoy video-games for a variety of reasons, though I usually play them for single-player content. I've played various MMO's, but usually more to see the world and do the quests,
then to interact with the others.

2. I enjoy TTRPG's as well, especially the out-of-the-box solutions a group can come up with, and the craziness and madness that can follow from that.

3. I honestly think they are two separate entities, despite the name. VG's tend to be more scripted experiences and stories, where, even if they allow you some choice, there's still a basic story they attempt to tell. This means that VG's can make for some really powerful stories, but they don't often have those unscripted moments of awesomeness. TRPG's on the other hand are more about telling a story together, and everything that follows from having players with relatively large amounts of freedom.

4. VG's, especially RPG's could try and take the player character into account more past the conversation choices that modern RPG's tend to include. For example, if my mage character can cast invisibility,
include this power at appropriate times in cutscenes, or have it as a 'dialogue' option after or before being confronted by guards.

5. Many TRPG's I've played(Shadowrun, dnd 3.5) could do with some tighter editing and design. Though VG's aren't perfect in this regard either, I challenge anyone to try and build something ridiculously broken in a VG. Thinking about macro-scale economy might also be something TRPG designers should think about a bit more. I'm not saying it should be part of the core rules, but the core rules shouldn't be actually broken in this regard either.

Blacky the Blackball
2017-08-14, 05:16 PM
1. What do you think of video games (VGs)?

I enjoy both playing and creating them, and have done since the early '80s. I tend not to be too keen on the latest AAA titles (they're so samey and designed-by-committee) - I tend to spend more time on smaller indie games, especially Roguelikes.

2. What do you think of tabletop RPGs (TRPGs)?

I enjoy both playing and creating them, and have done since the early '80s. They're a great hobby, although I've never been into them as terribly serious business. When my group play it's very much beer-and-pretzels.

3. How do you think VGs and TRPGs compare to one another?

I think they're about as similar as cheese and chocolate. Two very different things that happend to contain a shared ingredient (milk), but you wouldn't necessarily want to put them together.

The very superficial similarities (VGs often have elements such as character progression based on levels and skills) might make them look similar, but TRPGs are all about human interaction and imagination, whereas VGs (at least the ones that aren't reflex based) are all about tactics and choosing the right options to advance a pre-written story (any comparison of VG dialogue trees with TRPGs is simply laughable).

4. Is there anything you think VGs should learn from TRPGs?

Put simply, no.

5. Is there anything you think TRPGs should learn from VGs?

Again, no.

KillianHawkeye
2017-08-15, 06:39 PM
I'm curious to know if you're interested in people's thoughts on all video games in general, or RPG video games specifically? Because there are many different genres of video games and I have different thoughts and opinions about most of them, and it can be hard to compare non-RPG video games to Tabletop RPGs since, in many cases, they don't have a lot in common.

Also, "What do you think of X?" is a pretty vague question. I don't suppose you can elaborate on what aspects of the two mediums you're interested in?

Lord Raziere
2017-08-15, 07:47 PM
1. What do you think of video games (VGs)?
They're awesome.

2. What do you think of tabletop RPGs (TRPGs)?
They're are also awesome.

3. How do you think VGs and TRPGs compare to one another?
Well I play them for different experiences. Say that I have a setting, and one game for that setting is a videogame, and the other game for that setting is a TTRPG. If I want a specific experience of that setting I go play the videogame, but if I want to do whategver I want, to stretch my imagination and explore the setting beyond what it shows, then I use the TTRPG. the TTRPG is unbound, open to my imagination, able to explore what the videogame can't and create characters the videogame can't, while the videogame has graphics and gameplay that the TTRPG cannot give me. They both have their strengths.

4. Is there anything you think VGs should learn from TRPGs?
you mean aside from what they have? many videogames, many of them not even rpgs, have leveling systems, loot, talent trees and so on. as well as videogames with customization. they already learned a lot, and I'm not sure what they could learn more, at a certain point its like "what can you do that won't be impractical to implement?"

5. Is there anything you think TRPGs should learn from VGs?
I'm not sure, TTRPGS are a different medium. I'm not sure what they can take from videogames that again wouldn't be impractical to implement. but things are generally more balanced in videogames than in TTRPGs, so I'd say more balance would be good.

Pugwampy
2017-08-16, 05:13 AM
1. What do you think of video games (VGs)?

Its very much been part of my life since PC,s first came out .


2. What do you think of tabletop RPGs (TRPGs)?

I have been wanting to play dungeons and dragons since i was made aware of it at age 13 . Game books and TSR/WOTC novels fired up my imagination. Your average game book author usually was involved in DND . Later i played DND computer games and those were pretty impressive too
When i finally played the real thing in 2008 , i found it to be the most amazing experience .

3. How do you think VGs and TRPGs compare to one another?

There was a time when i thought VG,s were smart and pretty enough to obsolete TTRPG,s . I was wrong . TTRPG boasts the most powerful processor on the planet . Your brain . 5- 8 brains linked , cooperating can create a new universe .

TTRPG,s are potentially unlimited in a far more social environment but this depends on the DM and his skills . This game consumes a huge amount of time . Most TT games dont look pretty , or have an ending or a great story worthy of a novel . On the other hand it can have a massive emotional or intimate effect a computer game can never offer you . It also belongs to you and your group alone. Outsider will never understand or appreciate it like you do .

In this day and age where your sense are being peppered by all sorts of media including VG . TT can be a breath of fresh air . Its different , unpredictable , alien and extreme to the point of you either like it or you dont .


4. Is there anything you think VGs should learn from TRPGs?
I am sure it has already done so within the constraints of current technology .

5. Is there anything you think TRPGs should learn from VGs?
VG,s can and has been a great source of inspiration for TT . As important as any book or movie .

Regarding questions 4 and 5 . One feeds the other and vice versa . One came before the other and will always be superior or inferior depending on the DM although the sparkly new penny keeps the majority of the world in thrall.

SilverCacaobean
2017-08-19, 12:28 AM
1. First, I like video games. I'm assuming here that by video games you mean all video games, not just RPGs. The term "video game" is very, very broad though, so not a lot can be said here. They're a fairly new medium, that I think has great potential that we haven't fully seen yet. They can certainly be used in ways you wouldn't expect (http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/33715/title/Games-for-Science/) (By the way, I'm not sure how much this worked, but it's certainly an interesting idea that could have a future). Creating one can be as demanding as creating a movie (more in some ways, less in others), which is a thing that requires a combination of a lot of arts (visual arts, music, storytelling, and, depending on how many things you include in the ones mentioned, many others) to just writing code for something as simple as pong. So VGs aren't a type of game any more than non-VGs are a type of game.


2. I recently started playing one (got invited by a friend I'd never in a thousand years have expected to be into this kind of thing). It's been fun. This is less broad than the previous question but I know less about them. What I've noticed, is that it's actually more nuanced than it looks. I mean, there is a great deal of disparity between our reasons for playing and what we expect from the game, e.g. I prefer trying to figure out what's going on in the story, while he wants to pretend to be a ridiculously strong man waving around a lightsaber. This isn't an endorsement of my way of playing, just an example of him preferring the "pretend" aspect and me the story. Just by reading this forum a bit, I can see there are a lot of ways to play something that can be called an RPG.


3. VGs are not a kind of game while TRPGs are a kind of game. Otherwise, I can't really compare them unless I compare TRPGs with video-game RPGs so I'll do that. Ok, maybe I was wrong to assume that you meant all video games... Anyway, VGRPGs usually have a lot of things that TRPGs don't, like music, visuals, voice actors... but they don't really need any of that to be called VG RPGs. The minimum they need is to be designed to let the player roleplay, which could be something as simple as a text adventure. But that's a fringe case, so let's assume the videogame has some graphics and music.

So, the VGRPG is something with a usually reasonably well-written story with reasonably well-written characters, whose atmosphere is provided by the visuals and music mostly, which provides limited interaction with a game world that always in some ways feels artificial.

TRPGs generally have worse stories and characters(on account of the people playing them not generally being professional writers), their atmosphere is provided by the narration and the imaginations of the players (and dm) which when compared to VGRPGs is similar to a book(TRPG) vs a movie(VGRPG). Weirdly this part is actually more lonely in a TRPG despite its more social nature, since there is more human contact in VGRPGs (seeing the visuals and music of the artists vs your own imagination). The most important difference is that the world and interactions will feel a lot less artificial and limited. It offers freedom that can't be approached by VGRPGs because the VGRPG writer has to write every possible branch of every interaction and result, while the dm only writes the one the players have pursued, or make one s/he hadn't considered after the players pursue an unexpected course of action. Also, every interaction is an interaction between humans. The writer(coder) has to write(code) what the player can say( or do) and offer enough variety, while the dm only has to respond to the players' actions which have variety only limited by their imaginations. This isn't a technological limitation. No matter how much technology advances (short of inventing artificial intelligence capable of dming) this will always be the reason TRPGs won't be replaced by VGRPGs.

I like VGRPGs more than TRPGs but they're really very very different things. You're interacting with a human that can adapt, not something written in advance. In the end a dm that knows you well can make something that suits your group's playstyle more than any VG, so if you find the right group, you could be playing exactly what you want. Adapting the game to the player's playstyle is probably also why the elder scrolls games are so successful on the pc, with all those mods, but having many mods without gamebreaking conflicts is a science (and like real world science, it guarantees that in the end, everything will freeze), whereas in a TRPG adapting to all the players' playstyles is simply a matter of maturity and compromise and mutual respect. Ok, scratch that, it's easier to just mod Skyrim.

Note that the story isn't necessarily important in certain kinds of games (e.g. exploration games, dungeon crawling). They can have the equivalent of an excuse to just throw you out there, but I included it for completeness' sake.


4. I hope they learn that not everything has to be about killing everything and they start making other stuff as interesting.


5. I don't think TRPGs have anything to learn from VGRPGs more than what they have to learn from other arts. Just get influenced by them and use them as inspiration.


I doubt I've said anything too original. Gonna go read what the others had to say now. Compare wall-of-text sizes.

martixy
2017-08-19, 10:23 PM
1. Being an avid gamer since I was little, I figure video games are the next best thing since sliced bread.
2. I love the freedom of expression. However I'm one of those people that's unlucky the types of things he likes, which other people don't (and I'm not talking about 4e here). So I have yet to experience that seminal TTRPG moment/campaign you talk about for years after.
3. VGs let you immerse yourself in the experience in a way I've yet to experience with a TTRPG. However TTs hold the potential for collaborative story-telling on a scale VGs can only dream for now.
4. Trust their players. Trust their audience. Their consumer.
5. Being a game isn't bad.

...though I guess the last two relate more to the creators of the games, rather than the product itself(DM/game developer).
It goes without saying that I'm relaying personal experiences here.