Simple, straightforward, adaptable fighter amongst odd other party choices

[Willie the Duck]

EDIT: Updated situation to reflect current state of affairs as of 8/28/17, including stuff others have said up through post #50.

So our drow campaign collapsed, and my gaming group decided to start over at 1st level (now 2nd).
Our group consists of:

svirfneblin moon druid 3: has a decent dex and is fighting with a dagger and going to be shapechanging a lot. I expect a lot of the normal moon druid cheese/post level 5 ho-mum performance.
Halfling barbarian 1/ druid 2 (land): a dexbarian (rapier and shield) I believe is going for maximum dex and con before pumping wisdom. This player is highly scared of dying and will often play with an "nothing matters more than my having a maximized AC and HP and an escape route" attitude. To the point of self-hindrance.
Wood elf rogue3: probably going rogue/ranger in some combination. Standard dex-focused build.
My character, a half-orc fighter3 (battlemaster), strength based. Rolled a 10, and 7 for (for 39 total)


My fighter is S19 D14 C 18, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 13. I chose defensive fighting style and have the medium-or-heavy armor synergizing Dex, as I don't know what kind of equipment the DM will be handing out. As the only Str-based combatant, I don't want to be married to a specific weapon or strategy (UPDATE: currently has +1 greataxe and plate mail.). Skills/languages/proficiencies are Athletics, Intimidation, Investigation, Perception, Persuasion (got from deck of many things), Survival, common, orcish, cartography tools.


The question I have right now is where to go with class choices and Feats/ASI

I am trying to make a character who can survive as the front line to this group, while at the same time be adaptable and a source of useful abilities. Healer and Ritual Caster (wizard) have been put on my wish list to fulfill the useful part, and anything that improves offense or defense is also on the table for fulfilling the role of fighter (although I am strongly hoping not to have to resort to the standard GWM/PAM/Sentinel combo to be effective, and I'm hoping not to have to permanently choose between s&b, thf, thf-reach, etc.). The rest of the players to these characters are... I don't know how best to put it... everyone would prefer to play fun than smart (which is fine), and also like to "improvise!" (which is hard to work around). The half-orc, both in personality and in role, is turning into only-sane-man-in-the-asylum. Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks!

[jaappleton]

Well, Champion synergizes well with Half Orc. Very well.

But, while Champion works, there's also no options to it, nothing to manage. Its just a bunch of passive things, really. So it can be boring. Or it might not be for you, its all up to your style.

Is any Unearthed Arcana allowed at the table? If so, I highly recommend Samurai.
https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/2016_Fighter_UA_1205_1.pdf

[Willie the Duck]

UA is not allowed. SCAG and Volo's is (so I suppose people can suggest better builds for this situation in case this character dies).

I am not afraid of using RP to offset a lack of tactical options. I started with BECMI, so my fighters were 'roll HD and go' all the way up until we got the Master set and discovered weapon mastery. My main (tactical) concerns have to do with surviving with this rather un-optimized group and unpredictable players.

[Potato_Priest]

In media, the straight man is very often the medic. Seeing as nobody else is going to be very good in that role, I would encourage you to take the healer feat at some point. Fighter is a good class for this, because you get extra feats.

It might open up wonderful RP opportunities when you're chastising the other party members for their stupidity and patching them up at the same time.

It's by no means a necessary thing to take, but if I was in your position I think I would consider it.

[Kane0]

Banneret :smallamused:

Okay, that was only half sarcastic. If you are intent on keeping your fellows up and running then it may be helpful if you aren't looking to multiclass, couple it with your extra ASIs for Healer and a defensive feat like Heavy Armor Mastery/Shield Master/Tough and you can both hold the frontline and rally the others.
Battlemaster and EK do this too with maneuvers/spells, but why not try something unconventional?

[Sigreid]

I think your best bet is to play a champion and get in on the crazy. Use remarkable athlete to attempt crazy stunts, etc. No sense being the only orderly in the loony bin.

[jaappleton]

I think your best bet is to play a champion and get in on the crazy. Use remarkable athlete to attempt crazy stunts, etc. No sense being the only orderly in the loony bin.

I second this. Get in on the crazy. In fact, comically out-crazy the other crazies.

[Willie the Duck]

I second this. Get in on the crazy. In fact, comically out-crazy the other crazies.

The crazy, however, means that we don't end up living long. If my character dies first, any suggestions on what to come back as?

[Aett_Thorn]

The crazy, however, means that we don't end up living long. If my character dies first, any suggestions on what to come back as?

In with a bunch of crazies? Sounds like the perfect time for a Gnomish Illusionist!

[jaappleton]

The crazy, however, means that we don't end up living long. If my character dies first, any suggestions on what to come back as?

You said no UA allowed, but double check for Revised Ranger. It's universally accepted that the PHB Ranger sucks wet ass, so they fixed it.

If Revised Ranger is allowed? Tabaxi Revised Ranger, with the Crossbow Expert Feat.

If not? Tabaxi Paladin. Ancients or Vengeance.

Either way, you're brutally obsessed with gems, any sort of shiny stones. Not gold or prescious metals, as those aren't what a fine connoisseur of SHINY SPARKLY STONES appreciates. Also, you despise your tail, as it betrays you whenever you're trying to put on a poker face.

[ImproperJustice]

Straight well balanced fighter is always my top pick.
I like the idea of always being dangerous in any type of combat situation and it sounds like you are heading in that direction.

Champion is a good choice for this, and despite board criticisms, the people I have seen play the class all expressed that they like not having abailities that run out.

Feats can give you flavor, and others already suggested Athlete. Mobility, Dungeon Delver, and Alert are nice features.

Grabbing Heavy Armor Master and Toughness can amp up your survivability early on.
Or you could grab Medium Armor Mastery and Defensive Duelist, maybe even grab skilled at some point and act as a scout.

Something crazy to come back as?

Gold Dragon Sorceror from a Red Dragon bloodline?

A Nekomancer: Druid that only casts spells and summons centered around cats.

[Willie the Duck]

Straight well balanced fighter is always my top pick.
I like the idea of always being dangerous in any type of combat situation and it sounds like you are heading in that direction.

That is the basic premise-- doesn't matter which med-hvy armor or str-based weapon he picks up, he'll be fine.


Champion is a good choice for this, and despite board criticisms, the people I have seen play the class all expressed that they like not having abailities that run out.

Critics on the board tend to talk white room even when they think they are not. In this campaign, I'm going to have very little control over a number of factors. There is a lot of advantage for my characters stats to be 'just there.'


A Nekomancer: Druid that only casts spells and summons centered around cats.
You guys know something I don't about my group and cats?

[greenstone]

Our group consists of:
…
My character, a half-orc fighter2, strength based. Rolled a 10 for 2nd level hp (for 24 total)


Cool. No competition for the magical swords and axes and maces and halberds and … :smallbiggrin:

I'm playing a STR-based ranger in a party of DEX-based characters (including a paladin). It is great to use one or both of my extra attacks to shove enemies out of range of the warlock so she doesn't get penalties in her ranged attack. Grapple that thing? No worries. Smack that hunter's marked thing with a greataxe, for more damage than the paladin, even counting her divine smite? You got it, boss. Doing this while having a higher armour class than everyone except the bladesigner? Priceless. Being able to carry all the heavy stuff I want? Yep.

As an aside, I am GMing a game where everyone made STR their dump stat. Encumbrance has hit them hard, especially the medium armour wearers.

[Willie the Duck]

Feats can give you flavor, and others already suggested Athlete. Mobility, Dungeon Delver, and Alert are nice features.

Grabbing Heavy Armor Master and Toughness can amp up your survivability early on.
Or you could grab Medium Armor Mastery and Defensive Duelist, maybe even grab skilled at some point and act as a scout.

Thinking of my early-mid feats ('cause who know what will change by level 12?): 4, 6, and 8 give me 3--

HAM is certainly a thought. One thought is to go HAM, some +1 Con feat (suggestions?), and Resilient:Wisdom (which I see is 13, so picking that at 6th or so changes my wis saves from +1 to +5).

The other option is just +1str/+1con, resilient, and something useful like healer, alert, skilled, or even ritual caster (getting detect magic, identify, and knock would not hurt in a wizardless party). A one level dip into cleric (knowledge) would probably be suboptimal, but might be tempting.

[GlenSmash!]

HAM is certainly a thought. One thought is to go HAM, some +1 Con feat (suggestions?), and Resilient:Wisdom (which I see is 13, so picking that at 6th or so changes my wis saves from +1 to +5).


While it's certainly not the most powerful feat my favorite +1 Con feat is Tavern Brawler.

[Willie the Duck]

While it's certainly not the most powerful feat my favorite +1 Con feat is Tavern Brawler.

There aren't that many. Is HAM the best +1 str one? With a +2 dex bonus, would be a long time before I got hvy armor unless it give me DR 3.

[GlenSmash!]

There aren't that many. Is HAM the best +1 str one? With a +2 dex bonus, would be a long time before I got hvy armor unless it give me DR 3.

I definitely think HAM is the best one. 3 damage reduction ends up being useful even at high levels since monsters start getting more attacks and it will work on every single one.

[djreynolds]

Grab the brawny feat and shield master, or a level of rogue and shield master.

Champion is fine

Simple and straightforward

Shield bash, they go prone due to your enormously high athletics skill (upwards of +17), and then attack with advantage.

You will be surprised how many 19s and 20s your roll with advantage.

Also breast plate with 14 dex and shield is AC 18, same as chainmail and shield, and same as scale mail with 14 dex and shield.

If you began as a fighter, you should've be given the choice of either chainmail or leather armor (with a long bow) as starting armor

chain is 75gp, scale is 50gp, breast plate is 400gp

Brawny gives +1 to strength and basically expertise to athletics.

Also if you do not mind the medium armor well now barbarian becomes a nice dip.

http://burrowowl.net/2014/10/the-5e-savage-duelist/

Check out this build, I like it.

[Willie the Duck]

It is a nice build. It does make me choose a specific fighting style. Less so than the PAM I otherwise might have picked in a whole group of Strength-based martials, but still throwing my lot in with one-handed weapons.

Right now, I am at the point of trying to decide if I go +1str/+1 con and then dive into utility feats, or pick up a +1 str feat, and +1 con feats

[Citan]

So our drow campaign collapsed, and my gaming group decided to start over at 1st level (now 2nd).
Our group consists of:

svirfneblin moon druid 2: has a decent dex and is fighting with a dagger and going to be shapechanging a lot. I expect a lot of the normal moon druid cheese/post level 5 ho-mum performance.
Halfling barbarian 1/ druid 1 (I think also going moon, but not sure. he stated that he'll mostly be infiltrating/flying, but who knows): a dexbarian (rapier and shield) I believe is going for maximum dex and con before pumping wisdom. This player is highly scared of dying and will often play with an "nothing matters more than my having a maximized AC and HP and an escape route" attitude. To the point of self-hindrance.
Wood elf rogue2: probably going rogue/ranger in some combination. Standard dex-focused build.
My character, a half-orc fighter2, strength based. Rolled a 10 for 2nd level hp (for 24 total)


My fighter is S19 D14 C 15, and Int-cha in the 9-13 range (can't remember right now). I chose defensive fighting style and have the medium-or-heavy armor synergizing Dex, as I don't know what kind of equipment the DM will be handing out. As the only Str-based combatant, I don't want to be married to a specific weapon or strategy.

The question I have right now is: My initial assumed idea is to take Champion at level 3 and at level 4 take +1 str, +1 con. Is this the right choice?

I am trying to make a character who can survive as the front line to this group. The rest of the players to these characters are... I don't know how best to put it... everyone would prefer to play fun than smart (which is fine), and also like to "improvise!" (which is hard to work around). The half-orc, both in personality and in role, is turning into only-sane-man-in-the-asylum. Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks!
Hi!

Well, Champion is indeed the best subclass to capitalize on survival, provided you get high level enough. I'm bit afraid you would get a tad bored in the long run though...

I'd suggest instead going Battlemaster if you want to avoid any kind of magic (and keep booktracking short), or Eldricht Knight otherwise.
Eldricht Knight falls a bit short at first, not being that great (you do get Shield, a great defensive spells, but very few slots per day for some time). It does provide a nice upgrade in single-target damage though. Once you get War Magic, you can really start tanking like a champ while still dishing some damage out (Blade Ward + melee attack) or get even better single-target damage for a few levels (Booming Blade + melee attack).

Battlemaster feels different: every thing gets off weapon attacks (barring one/two manoeuvers), but the fact most of them can be triggered after the fact make them easier to use well. And considering your party, several of them would be extremely potent: Trip Attack (for everyone), Goading Attack (making you the main target), Parry or Riposte (great synergy with the previous one), Evasive Footwork (often underestimated, but great if you want to move "in" the front lines), Commander's Strike (for your Rogue -although it does eat one of your attack and his reaction, so best taken at least at level 7 or even 10th).


As for weapon choice: it's too bad you already chose Defense style. Not that it's a bad style far from it, but I think for your particular party there were better choices, so if your DM would allow you to change I'd suggest you think about it.
If you primarily want to tank, then using a throwable weapon (so you have some leeway in positioning) and a shield with Protection fighting style would be better imo. Because your allies probably have lesser AC than you, imposing disadvantage is a good way to reduce the threat. It does eat your reaction though so it's always a matter of choice. ;)
You may pair that with Shield Master to further debunk enemy threat.

If you primarily want to be 100% effective whatever situation you are in, then getting Two-Weapon Fighting Style with Sharpshooter and maybe later Dual Wielder is your best bet. Having weapons that can be either kept in hand or thrown allows you to minimize your movement while keeping all your attacks available (which a shield-wielder couldn't do, because of the interaction needed to draw weapons), so you effectively become a melee fighter with a 20 (then 60, then possibly 120) reach.
Actual effectiveness will obviously vary though. If your campaign is set as a dungeon crawler for example, chances are that situations in which you face enemies requiring very long "reach" (aka long range thrown or bows) will be scarce. So taking the full TWF would be overkill.
In a campaign with many outdoors encounters though, it's great to know that the Rogue would not be the only one immediately potent against flying/covered/long distance threats.

So that's it for a very quick brush of your options.
Now if you cannot change the choices you made and just want a quick advice on how to evolve your character on a "safe" route, let me suggest a middle ground: stay with Defense, but go fighting with lots of Javelins to use in main hand, while you wield a shield in the other.
Go Battlemaster, picking Trip Attack (your main), Menacing Attack (against a tough enemy) and Parry (great for low level survivability in a pinch).
At level 4 do what you said. At level 6 pick Sharpshooter (if you like staying "between" front and back, or you encounter many enemies hard to reach in melee, or enemies have dangerous OA/melee attacks) or Shield Master (so you can shove people prone more often without consuming precious resources).

[djreynolds]

It is a nice build. It does make me choose a specific fighting style. Less so than the PAM I otherwise might have picked in a whole group of Strength-based martials, but still throwing my lot in with one-handed weapons.

Right now, I am at the point of trying to decide if I go +1str/+1 con and then dive into utility feats, or pick up a +1 str feat, and +1 con feats

The savage duelist build... fighter/barbarian/rogue is down right nasty

For me the rogue ends up being the big part of build.

You might grab 3-6 champion/battlemaster

3-4 bear totem barbarian

And the rest rogue... I prefer swashbuckler because of rakish audacity.... but with shield master any rogue works just fine

And its cool. Half orc trained to be a gladiator, perhaps once a tribal type captured and forced into slavery.... whole Conan Movie feel

[Willie the Duck]

So become a shield bashing fighter/rogue/barb or become a twf throwing weapon specialist with sharpshooter? Is it really a fools errand to try to build a fighter who will be able to switch up their strategy depending on whether the magic weapons they find are a +1 shield/+1 warhammer, a +2 trident, a flaming halberd, or a +3 maul?


Part of me really wants to even out the odd stats and then go straight healer/ritual magic/skilled/athlete/mobility/dungeon delver/alert-style utility.

[Beelzebubba]

You're pretty much cake batter at this point.

You can mix, bake, and decorate into anything.

[Willie the Duck]

Alright, yes, I know that. I am looking for suggestion. Predominantly whether it is a plausible to successfully play a fighter that doesn't specialize in weapon type (by picking shield master, PAM, GWM, sentinel, the usual suspects, if you will). And also whether I can patch some holes in this party

One option for my character (and I'm only mapping up to level 9-10, since who knows what might change by then) is Champion8, and either or both of wizard 1, and cleric(knowledge) 1 with Resilience:Wisdom, Tavern Brawler, and HAM.

Cleric and resilience (and thus 14 wisdom) gives me two languages (which we are short on), 2 knowledge skills (which we are short on, and the DM does use 'has taken the skill' gatekeeping for knowledges), 2 castings of cures/lr, being able to have cure wounds, detect magic, healing word, and identify memorized, 3 cantrips (probably 3 out of Guidance, Light, Spare the Dying, and Thaumaturgy).
Wizard gives ritual casting, so as to pick up all the 1st level (can you cast higher level ritual spells if you are only a wizard 1?), so that is alarm, comprehend languages, detect magic, find familiar (raven can give advantage, just like shield master), identify, tenser's floating disk, and unseen servant. Also 3 spells a day (including arcane recovery), but only 2 spells prepared (int 13), 3 cantrips (probably only take the no-saves, no-to-hit ones like mage hand, prestidigitation, and mending)
Or these abilities can be garnered by picking feats like healer, skilled, and/or ritual casting. This takes away from the combat-benefit feats, so a dip could be a better choice.



The question is-- if I take 2-3 feats in these, or 1-2 levels of dipping (almost certainly only one level, actually), will I still be able to contribute to combat just by swinging my maul/longsword/two scimitars/javelins with a 19-20 str, half-orc/champion synergy, and a high AC? Or do you need the whole Shield Master or Sentinel or GWM rigmarole to be a competitive fighter? Especially with this odd little party?

[Joe the Rat]

So become a shield bashing fighter/rogue/barb or become a twf throwing weapon specialist with sharpshooter? Is it really a fools errand to try to build a fighter who will be able to switch up their strategy depending on whether the magic weapons they find are a +1 shield/+1 warhammer, a +2 trident, a flaming halberd, or a +3 maul?


Part of me really wants to even out the odd stats and then go straight healer/ritual magic/skilled/athlete/mobility/dungeon delver/alert-style utility.

With your gang of crazy, going Str genericist is will still leave you in good shape, especially with smart play. Something to keep an eye on is that anything you grab should help regardless of your weapon loadout. Stats will always help - and squaring out at/by 4 (or 6) will be good.
Another option to consider is Great Weapon Master - Yes, it's great for heavies (great weapons and polearms), but the cleave-like feature (bonus attack on a crit (which you have expanded range) or drop) will be useful in any melee. Unless you grab Shield Master for when you have a shield (advice - see if you get one regularly first), or do two-weapon fighting on occasion, this is your best use of a bonus action. The heavy weapon power attack is straight pudding.

the utility feats are a great idea. Mobility is quite frightening, particularly when you get extra attack and can literally bash your way through enemy lines.
I am quite amused by the Ritual Caster idea - The big gnarly half-orc is not only the level head, but the only one who would frequent libraries. The Sage background might work here.
It would be better if you had higher Charisma, but if that's where one of your 13s is, Inspiring Leader hands everyone (including yourself) a few temp HP for the low low cost of 10 minutes talking. Think of it as being proactive, rather than reactive (Healer). I highly recommend the Drill Sergeant Nasty approach to "inspiring" your party. It gives you a chance to vent in-character regarding the antics of your fellow players, in a constructive and hopefully amusing way.

[Jaelommiss]

Embrace the insanity. Take Mounted Combatant and strap yourself to one of the druids when they Wildshape. Go Eldritch Knight, use Shield and Blur to make yourself next to impossible to hit. The druid you ride on will thank you for compensating for their poor AC, and you get advantage on your attacks against creatures smaller than whatever form they chose.

[Citan]

Alright, yes, I know that. I am looking for suggestion. Predominantly whether it is a plausible to successfully play a fighter that doesn't specialize in weapon type (by picking shield master, PAM, GWM, sentinel, the usual suspects, if you will). And also whether I can patch some holes in this party
Aaw, I'm sorry, I didn't understand you wanted to keep all paths open at all times.
Then taking just the TWF style is by far the best way to go.
Although you cannot "swap" shield for weapon (because of donning time), this is the style that gives you the best versatility without any further investment. At least for a STR build. ;)

Now with that said, honestly, considering how high STR you have...
If you go pure Fighter, you would have a fair chance to stack all the weapon related feats and still have space for Resilient Wisdom. ;)

So just take TWF, level up pure Fighter, taking just War Caster because mandatory past some point, and see where that leads you. ;)
On that point, not specializing in any weapon type and instead "specialize" in utility / non-weapon dependant feats is a very reasonable, and actually great choice.
Grab Mobile & Mage Slayer to still have some special niche (note that Mage Slayer is great if only for imposing disadvantage on saves, since it works on any and every damage (so also ranged attacks or damage from spell). Then capitalize on Healer, Ritual Caster, and whatever else you'd like.




One option for my character (and I'm only mapping up to level 9-10, since who knows what might change by then) is Champion8, and either or both of wizard 1, and cleric(knowledge) 1 with Resilience:Wisdom, Tavern Brawler, and HAM.

The question is-- if I take 2-3 feats in these, or 1-2 levels of dipping (almost certainly only one level, actually), will I still be able to contribute to combat just by swinging my maul/longsword/two scimitars/javelins with a 19-20 str, half-orc/champion synergy, and a high AC? Or do you need the whole Shield Master or Sentinel or GWM rigmarole to be a competitive fighter? Especially with this odd little party?
Yes, you will still contribute (although I'd say you'd contribute better as EK to be honest, see below).
1. You still get 3 attacks (although dips would delay significantly), you certainly won't do as much damage as a Sharpshooter or GWM but that's okay, because...
2. As a non-specialist, you can quickly adapt to whatever the next encounter is without any regret about "losing" something: need a tank? Grab your shield, and, as EK (with a dip in Cleric), either Command enemies to attack you or go into melee, Blade Ward yourself while still dishing some damage. Need to pin down someone? Free one hand (either main hand with Tavern Brawler, or off-hand) and get the job done. You are in a fight in which you have to shield-stand a pathway and enemies just keep out of melee? Switch to javelins and light hammers (Dual Wielder possibly) or use a ranged cantrip with a thrown weapon (a) Throw weapon, b) use cantrip, c) use free interaction to draw weapon for next round).
3. As an Eldricht Knight (especially with dips), past a certain level (10), you can be very potent at disabling one-two enemies, if only for one round, thanks to Eldricht Strike.

As for whether to dip Wizard, Cleric, or both?
If you don't take Ritual Caster, both dips are great.
If you take Ritual Caster (which is a great idea), I'd advise going Wizard route (more interesting rituals, although a few great are missing) and just dip Knowledge Cleric for the buffs. You wouldn't have enough spell slots to really have an utility for that large a spell selection that Wizard would bring (unless, UNLESS, your DM basically told you he would drive the game in a way that allows you to learn all available 1st level spells. In which case it would be darn tempting indeed).

[Willie the Duck]

If you take Ritual Caster (which is a great idea), I'd advise going Wizard route (more interesting rituals, although a few great are missing) and just dip Knowledge Cleric for the buffs. You wouldn't have enough spell slots to really have an utility for that large a spell selection that Wizard would bring (unless, UNLESS, your DM basically told you he would drive the game in a way that allows you to learn all available 1st level spells. In which case it would be darn tempting indeed).

Wouldn't going wizard mean I wouldn't need the ritual casting feat? since they get ritual casting automatically?

[Citan]

Wouldn't going wizard mean I wouldn't need the ritual casting feat? since they get ritual casting automatically?
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. ;)

I meant choosing the "Wizard spell list" for Ritual Caster and instead only take one level in Cleric.
Because...
- While as a lvl 1 Wizard (or Cleric), you would only learn level 1 rituals (logic) accessible to the class, Ritual Caster ultimately give you chance to learn ALL rituals of the class.
- While opinions may obviously vary, mine is that higher level Wizard rituals are more useful on a day to day basis than Cleric ones.
So getting all Cleric level 1 rituals (1 level dip) and all Wizard rituals (Ritual Caster) seems the best course of action to me.

But honestly if you prefer the reverse it's good also. ;)

[Willie the Duck]

No, that does make sense. Plus it gives knowledges, guidance cantrip, and a bit of healing.

[djreynolds]

Theoretically a champion can make best use of any weapon.

If you want to be open to any weapon, I think battlemaster though is a better choice. Precision is too good and most of the maneuvers work with any weapon and key off your strength or dexterity score, you could literally land menacing strike 4 times versus 4 different opponents in the same round

1-15 levels of Battlemaster with 3 of lore bard and 2 of paladin

Have good skills, healing, 2 skills expertise, you smite on a limited basis.

Paladin grants you divine favor, which is a sweet spell or bless or shield of faith

And you can use a smite and a maneuver in the same turn

[Willie the Duck]

Major multi-classing might occur at higher level, but I think I'll be mostly bee-lining for 3 attacks.

The battlemaster/champion debate is a tougher one. With 2 moon druids (plus if I take the healer feat), we will probably be seeking out short rests quite a bit. Not going for the half-orc/ increased crit. synergy sounds silly, but in the end it is just a additional 2xweapon dmg (let's say 2d12 for great axe) 5% of the time. Battlemaster could be a full attack (if I get to repose on a reaction, or use precise and hit when I otherwise wouldn't) 4 times/sr.

It's worth thinking about.

[djreynolds]

I like a plain old battlemaster.

You want a 20 strength for your maneuver DCs- 4th/6th
You want sentinel so when they hit the moon druids.... you get a free attack 8th
You want resilient wisdom/lucky/mage slayer for saves.. 12th

There is really no room for you to take the healer feat, IMO

A champion wants expertise in athletics to make his/her own advantage, as a battle master you don't need that necessarily as you have trip

[Willie the Duck]

Well, I've never been one to say you need a 20 in your prime stat. I will likely pick up HAM at some point, but I can't say for sure when.

Sentinel requires you to be within 5' of the creature that attacked the moon druid. That requires a lot of planning to be on the right side of the druid as the enemy and other situations I won't be able to control as much as you think. I think this is a thought, but if I'm looking to get more reaction-action-attacks, I think riposte is the way to go (there's no doubt in my mind that the optimal martial character is a guy with a reach-polearm and PAM and Sentinel, because being able to get in a reaction attack and bonus action attack each round is very very good. I'm looking to see if I can make something else work).

A champion can use athletics to gain advantage (if you want to take shield expert, otherwise you're giving up an attack to gain advantage on the next), but there are other ways. I was thinking of picking Find Familiar as one the ritual magic spells. Picking an owl familiar to do the retribution-free-aid-another trick should work, although we'll see how long before the DM starts preemptively attacking the familiar or something.

I appreciate the advice, but if I, as a fighter--who gets bonus feats, and who started with a 19 primary stat, even when choosing the more-optimized-than-champion Battle Master--can't afford to spend one on a party support feat, then this edition has more problems than I'd been made aware of.

[Willie the Duck]

But that brings up a good point, and harkens back to my central premise. Do I need more than just attacking multiple times (such as x3 by levels 11-12) with a good weapon and a 19-20 half-orc crit? Do I need to be being able to use my bonus or reaction actions to attack, or consistently get advantage on my attacks, to be a serious contributor to the group? Be it sentinel, or battlemaster maneuvers, or shield expert, or a familiar running interference? Have people found this to be true?

In which case, yikes! Playing a no feats champion (like in the basic free version) would be no fun.

[Citan]

But that brings up a good point, and harkens back to my central premise. Do I need more than just attacking multiple times (such as x3 by levels 11-12) with a good weapon and a 19-20 half-orc crit? Do I need to be being able to use my bonus or reaction actions to attack, or consistently get advantage on my attacks, to be a serious contributor to the group? Be it sentinel, or battlemaster maneuvers, or shield expert, or a familiar running interference? Have people found this to be true?

In which case, yikes! Playing a no feats champion (like in the basic free version) would be no fun.
There is never a NEED TO per se. It really just depends on how specialized anyone wants to be.
In your case, it seems you are geared towards versatility. So just being a fighter will mean you contribute good enough damage-wise, because that is the essence of a Fighter.
And while getting advantage on attacks is obviously much better on a Champion than on other archetypes, just the ability to roll critical on 19&20 will come in handy anytime you fight very high AC creatures (in fact Champions are better than anyone else in fighting extreme AC creatures because they have a higher chance to hit them stat even if they "shouldn't be able to" because AC too high for any roll to hit).

Moreover, you are never alone (supposedly) and D&d is a game of teamwork (supposedly).

So our drow campaign collapsed, and my gaming group decided to start over at 1st level (now 2nd).
Our group consists of:

svirfneblin moon druid 2: has a decent dex and is fighting with a dagger and going to be shapechanging a lot. I expect a lot of the normal moon druid cheese/post level 5 ho-mum performance.
Halfling barbarian 1/ druid 1 (I think also going moon, but not sure. he stated that he'll mostly be infiltrating/flying, but who knows): a dexbarian (rapier and shield) I believe is going for maximum dex and con before pumping wisdom. This player is highly scared of dying and will often play with an "nothing matters more than my having a maximized AC and HP and an escape route" attitude. To the point of self-hindrance.
Wood elf rogue2: probably going rogue/ranger in some combination. Standard dex-focused build.
My character, a half-orc fighter2, strength based. Rolled a 10 for 2nd level hp (for 24 total)


My fighter is S19 D14 C 15, and Int-cha in the 9-13 range (can't remember right now).

If only, your Moon Druid pal could (should?) cast Faerie Fire on enemies to provide advantage, or Shove them prone (something your Barbarian pal could do too).

So, really, you should be fine most of the time. Or, if you really want to be self-sufficient AND don't care about losing 4th attack for whatever reason, I'd say do any of the following...
- Dip one level in Rogue to get Expertise in Athletics.
- Dip three levels in whatever caster you like that provides Enhance Ability (Bard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer) or Enlarge if you'd prefer (Sorcerer, Wizard) along with many other great things.

But if I recall you prefered a non-multiclass character. So then I'd say just ask for some teamwork tactics with teammates and instead stick to your initial goal of stacking utility. ;)

Especially with two characters liking short rests, Healer feat could be great. Ritual Caster (Wizard) which was also one of your idea would bring much utility to the group, including some of the great rituals Druid don't get (Alarm, Comprehend Languages, Gentle Repose, Magic Mouth, Leomund's Tiny Hut).

[Willie the Duck]

There is never a NEED TO per se. It really just depends on how specialized anyone wants to be. In your case, it seems you are geared towards versatility.

Well, no one needs to anything. But need in this case is code word for "am I not going to be able to fill my role and keep me and my party alive?" The guy who thinks he's going to tank with a valor bard because he can get their AC up to 19 needs to be told they aren't going to fulfill their purpose, and I'm trying to figure that out for my concept.


And while getting advantage on attacks is obviously much better on a Champion than on other archetypes, just the ability to roll critical on 19&20 will come in handy anytime you fight very high AC creatures (in fact Champions are better than anyone else in fighting extreme AC creatures because they have a higher chance to hit them stat even if they "shouldn't be able to" because AC too high for any roll to hit).

I'm looking at that. Being a half-orc Champion means that 5% of my "swings" (D20 rolls to attack, one for normal, two for with advantage, ignoring the rare case of rolling one 19 and one 20) will do an extra up-to 2d12 (avg. 13) damage. so 0.65 damage per swing.

Compare that to battlemaster. Initially, I was thinking menacing attack, precise attack, and riposte (trip attack at 7th after I get multiple attacks). Menacing attack is its own weird thing that is mostly defensive, so I'll leave it out for now. If I use riposte half the time for 1d12 +1d8+4 (avg. 15) and precise attack (to hit when I otherwise would miss) half the time for 1d12+4 (10.5), I'd do 41 extra damage per SR. To do that much with the Champion, I'd have to swing 63 times per SR! Is that right? What am I leaving out?


Moreover, you are never alone (supposedly) and D&d is a game of teamwork (supposedly).
If only, your Moon Druid pal could (should?) cast Faerie Fire on enemies to provide advantage, or Shove them prone (something your Barbarian pal could do too).

I know. The problem is that I can't trust my teammates to make tactically sound decisions. That's been the crux of my whole problem.


Or, if you really want to be self-sufficient AND don't care about losing 4th attack for whatever reason, I'd say do any of the following...
- Dip one level in Rogue to get Expertise in Athletics.
- Dip three levels in whatever caster you like that provides Enhance Ability (Bard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer) or Enlarge if you'd prefer (Sorcerer, Wizard) along with many other great things.

But if I recall you prefered a non-multiclass character. So then I'd say just ask for some teamwork tactics with teammates and instead stick to your initial goal of stacking utility. ;)

Actually, I have no problem with multiclassing. Who cares about an attack that only exists at levels I'll never reach? Extending the long dry stretch between 5th level and 11th is enough that I'd prefer things that take like ~1 level dipping than a rogue1/spellcaster 3 dip.


Especially with two characters liking short rests, Healer feat could be great. Ritual Caster (Wizard) which was also one of your idea would bring much utility to the group, including some of the great rituals Druid don't get (Alarm, Comprehend Languages, Gentle Repose, Magic Mouth, Leomund's Tiny Hut).

I am liking the idea more and more. I just want to know if I'm spelling my doom in thinking a str 19 fighter without PAM, SS, GWM, and/or sentinel is viable.

[Citan]

Well, no one needs to anything. But need in this case is code word for "am I not going to be able to fill my role and keep me and my party alive?" The guy who thinks he's going to tank with a valor bard because he can get their AC up to 19 needs to be told they aren't going to fulfill their purpose, and I'm trying to figure that out for my concept.



I know. The problem is that I can't trust my teammates to make tactically sound decisions. That's been the crux of my whole problem.



Actually, I have no problem with multiclassing. Who cares about an attack that only exists at levels I'll never reach? Extending the long dry stretch between 5th level and 11th is enough that I'd prefer things that take like ~1 level dipping than a rogue1/spellcaster 3 dip.



I am liking the idea more and more. I just want to know if I'm spelling my doom in thinking a str 19 fighter without PAM, SS, GWM, and/or sentinel is viable.
Well... Hmm. Considering you don't aim for highest level Fighters because campaign would probably end before (so never Improved Critical) and are not against multiclassing...

AND you want a character that is simple, versatile and adaptable...
I'll pull back my initial advice but twisting it a bit.

1. Multiclass Champion with Bear Barbarian 3 and Rogue 2-3 (Thief) dip: sponging attacks is always of a benefit to a party, and it will quickly improve your damage and Shoving too. Your usual tactic will be to shove or grapple someone before attacking, drawing attacks to you. Thanks to 19 STR+Expertise+Rage (advantage), this will be an extremely reliable tactic.
Pairing this with some terrain control from Druid (Spike Growth, Plant Growth) makes this a true universtal control tool for many encounters (although you would also be affected by difficult terrain, buffs such as Longstrider and Rogue's Cunning Action should compensate enough). Going up to Thief with Healer feat would also mean you can heal someone with a bonus action.

2. Multiclass Battlemaster with (Life/War/Nature/Arcane) Cleric to become extremely self-reliant on being good: you can cast Spiritual Weapon while having a shield, or even go as far as Cleric 6 for Spirit Guardians and 2*Channel Divinity per short rest. Or just use buffs such as Bless / Shield of Faith / Heroism etc if your WIS is not high enough.
Pair that with Sentinel or Mage Slayer to become extremely annoying to your foes.

3. Multiclass Eldricht Knight with a bit of Evoker Wizard (if you have high INT) or Abjurer / Diviner to get added versatility and benefits.

4. Multiclass Champion with a Fey Warlock, up to 7 (although you will see the benefits very late): short-rest Greater Invisibility improves both offense and defense (on minus side, enemies will probably attack your friends instead since you are so difficult to hit^^). Or just dip 1-2 levels of Fey Warlock to learn Faerie Fire and get 2 short-rest slots, themp bump CHA to make it a reliable tactic, and use this chance to also learn Inspiring Leader for additional short-rest greatness.

5. Just stay plain Battlemaster/Champion and rack up feats.

6. Stop twisting your brain, discuss with your friends OOTG to make them understand the importance of coordinated effort. If they don't listen, purposely act as stupid as them in one fight you know you can "recover" from (avoid TPK!! ^^) to make it much harder on them that supposed to, to illustrate your argument case in point (like, obviously refraining from blocking an enemy that is rushing to hammer your scaredy cat barb pal -honestly, a frightened barbarian is quite a disturbing concept ^^). XD

To be honest with you, I'd say that a Fighter not taking any of those feats you mentioned would be kinda wasting his potential imo. Precisely because a pure Fighter gets enough ASI to diversify oneself AND still improve his martial prowess.

Now I perfectly understand as well the desire of not specializing, as I said. So I'd say "take at least one feat that is useful in nearly all situations".
By order of appearance:
- Mage Slayer: works any time you deal damage, so magic, weapon, ranged, melee, anything goes. I'd say if you want to take only one, pick this one.
- Mobile: whether it's to get someone into reach or getting away, 10 more feet is interesting. Plus free disengage.
- Sharpshooter: as detailed before, even on a STR Fighter, it's still very useful, unless you get some cantrips to cover ranged attacks instead.
- Sentinel: Sharpshooter alternative, if you consider you will always able to go into melee, this works whatever weapon setup you have. :)

I'd personally advise you to go Battlemaster (unless short rests are very scarce usually) because it goes better in self-reliance, grab at least Mage Slayer before hitting level 12 because it's always great, dip at least one level in Cleric because you would be great at keeping Bless for (nearly) the whole party, then otherwise just pick whatever feat you like (with strong suggestion on Ritual Caster Wizard and Healer) or multiclass in whatever you'd like, taking maybe inspiration on my examples.

If you want to be a strong contributor to the party without relying on their tactical choices, I'd say it's probably the best (at least there will be *someone* playing smart -at least I suppose so XD-).

Note though that what I just said have been thought with the expectation of your campaign not reaching past character level 11-12. Because otherwise, as far as damage and self-reliance go, Improved Critical and Survivor are damn good. ;)

[Willie the Duck]

Stop twisting your brain, discuss with your friends OOTG to make them understand the importance of coordinated effort. If they don't listen, purposely act as stupid as them in one fight you know you can "recover" from (avoid TPK!! ^^) to make it much harder on them that supposed to, to illustrate your argument case in point (like, obviously refraining from blocking an enemy that is rushing to hammer your scaredy cat barb pal -honestly, a frightened barbarian is quite a disturbing concept ^^). XD

He's not a barbarian, he's a one-level dip that allows him to get a 22 AC and hp boost before he goes up in spellcaster (and the druid choice is undoubtedly for the extra 2x34 hp per Short Rest of turning into a bear more than for any combat value of the bear).


Now I perfectly understand as well the desire of not specializing, as I said. So I'd say "take at least one feat that is useful in nearly all situations".
By order of appearance:
- Mage Slayer: works any time you deal damage, so magic, weapon, ranged, melee, anything goes. I'd say if you want to take only one, pick this one.
- Mobile: whether it's to get someone into reach or getting away, 10 more feet is interesting. Plus free disengage.
- Sharpshooter: as detailed before, even on a STR Fighter, it's still very useful, unless you get some cantrips to cover ranged attacks instead.
- Sentinel: Sharpshooter alternative, if you consider you will always able to go into melee, this works whatever weapon setup you have. :)

I will be taking at least a couple of these. The ranged issue is certainly on my mind (javelins for now. But what to do after multiple attacks are needed to keep up?).


I'd personally advise you to go Battlemaster (unless short rests are very scarce usually) because it goes better in self-reliance, grab at least Mage Slayer before hitting level 12 because it's always great, dip at least one level in Cleric because you would be great at keeping Bless for (nearly) the whole party, then otherwise just pick whatever feat you like (with strong suggestion on Ritual Caster Wizard and Healer) or multiclass in whatever you'd like, taking maybe inspiration on my examples.

I believe I will be getting the cleric(knowledge) dip, and feats Ritual Caster (Wizard) and Healer. The rest I am still trying to decide upon. Things like wrangling my party (and how useful sentinel thus is), equipment I'll be getting (and thus value of things like HAM), and amount of spellcasters we are up against (regarding Resilient: Wis or Mage Slayer).


Note though that what I just said have been thought with the expectation of your campaign not reaching past character level 11-12. Because otherwise, as far as damage and self-reliance go, Improved Critical and Survivor are damn good. ;)

Understood.

[djreynolds]

Well, I've never been one to say you need a 20 in your prime stat. I will likely pick up HAM at some point, but I can't say for sure when.

Sentinel requires you to be within 5' of the creature that attacked the moon druid. That requires a lot of planning to be on the right side of the druid as the enemy and other situations I won't be able to control as much as you think. I think this is a thought, but if I'm looking to get more reaction-action-attacks, I think riposte is the way to go (there's no doubt in my mind that the optimal martial character is a guy with a reach-polearm and PAM and Sentinel, because being able to get in a reaction attack and bonus action attack each round is very very good. I'm looking to see if I can make something else work).

A champion can use athletics to gain advantage (if you want to take shield expert, otherwise you're giving up an attack to gain advantage on the next), but there are other ways. I was thinking of picking Find Familiar as one the ritual magic spells. Picking an owl familiar to do the retribution-free-aid-another trick should work, although we'll see how long before the DM starts preemptively attacking the familiar or something.

I appreciate the advice, but if I, as a fighter--who gets bonus feats, and who started with a 19 primary stat, even when choosing the more-optimized-than-champion Battle Master--can't afford to spend one on a party support feat, then this edition has more problems than I'd been made aware of.

Remember a battle master's maneuvers are like spells, you have a DC that they must save or suck, and its based on your strength or dex score. So get a maxed 20 quick.

Riposte is only if they miss you, and only if you have the SD to use, maneuver dice go quickly. What I like about sentinel is it also stops their movement and for some reason because of the moon druids lower AC and higher HP, they seem to draw lots of attacks

As for the healer feat, I do like it but for me I'm not sure if the moon druids need it. They can use their spell slots to heal as a bonus action during combat. Its a great feat, no doubt. It might be a luxury, I might take ritual caster instead if you have the int, wis, or chr for it.

You may actually want resilient wisdom earlier than later, as wisdom saves such as fear and charm will come up. The druids have wisdom save proficiency, fighters don't.

I do like magic initiate and an owl with fly-by is sweet to have but I prefer hex just for the extra damage and its good for 1 hour

Good luck

[KnotaGuru]

How does your barb/druid friend think he's getting a 22 AC? Unarmored defense gives you an AC of 10+DEX+CON. A brown bear has a zero DEX mod and +3 CON mod, so he'd have 13 AC. You don't get to add the animal's natural armor because unarmored defense changes the AC formula. Even if you did, a brown bear's natural AC is 11.

[Willie the Duck]

How does your barb/druid friend think he's getting a 22 AC? Unarmored defense gives you an AC of 10+DEX+CON. A brown bear has a zero DEX mod and +3 CON mod, so he'd have 13 AC. You don't get to add the animal's natural armor because unarmored defense changes the AC formula. Even if you did, a brown bear's natural AC is 11.

I'm sorry, I'm being too quick with my descriptions and leaving out vital information.
The barb/druid is currently a Level 2 character, a Halfling barbarian1/druid1 with an 18-19 Dex, 18-19 Con, had* a 14 or so wisdom. His plan was to keep going up in druid from here on out, get Dex and Con to 20, fight with a rapier, and change into bears when appropriate. I pointed out the utility of moon druid wild shape goes down quickly (and by delaying it a level for the barbarian dip, he was missing out on a good bit of the fun of his own build). I pointed out that, by never getting >1 attack, he was not going to be a good barbarian once the bear fun was done. I pointed out that 14 wisdom means that he will have less than awesome spells once his run as a combat monster is done. He pointed out that he'll have a 22 AC, 12+(5*lvl)+(lvl-1)D8 hp, 2x34 temporary hp per SR, and can reroll 1s on saves. It is fairly clear that we have differing priorities.
*we actually just ran into a deck of many things, which has done all sorts of havoc, including giving him +2 wisom. So he might be effective a little longer (and not learn any lessons).

[Citan]

I'm sorry, I'm being too quick with my descriptions and leaving out vital information.
The barb/druid is currently a Level 2 character, a Halfling barbarian1/druid1 with an 18-19 Dex, 18-19 Con, had* a 14 or so wisdom. His plan was to keep going up in druid from here on out, get Dex and Con to 20, fight with a rapier, and change into bears when appropriate. I pointed out the utility of moon druid wild shape goes down quickly (and by delaying it a level for the barbarian dip, he was missing out on a good bit of the fun of his own build). I pointed out that, by never getting >1 attack, he was not going to be a good barbarian once the bear fun was done. I pointed out that 14 wisdom means that he will have less than awesome spells once his run as a combat monster is done. He pointed out that he'll have a 22 AC, 12+(5*lvl)+(lvl-1)D8 hp, 2x34 temporary hp per SR, and can reroll 1s on saves. It is fairly clear that we have differing priorities.
*we actually just ran into a deck of many things, which has done all sorts of havoc, including giving him +2 wisom. So he might be effective a little longer (and not learn any lessons).
Well... I'm not sure where he wants to go combat-wise but, to be fair, even a Moon Druid with 14 WIS can really be awesome while out of shape: Longstrider, Healing Words, Heat Metal, Plant Growth, Spike Growth, Walls*, Conjures*, Warding Wind, are just a few of spells that can be of great benefit to a party however good (or bad) your casting stat is. As long as the caster thinks tactically about whole party's welfare at least. Which seems to be the main problem here, much more than the building itself*. XD

*Although with such godly stats, why the hell bother with Moon Druid? He'd actually fare better just leveling Barbarian (actually Ranger or Rogue but well)... And "THP from Wild Shape" is a sad argument since it actually is much worse AC than just Barbarian, so in a few sessions the full brunt of THP will last one turn, while just raging Barb's same amount of HP would last much much longer... I admit I fail to see the logic here.

[KnotaGuru]

I didn't mean to derail your discussion with your friend's lack of optimization or game knowledge, sorry. For you, straight fighter (champion or BM) is great. Maybe a 1 level dip in rogue if you're after a shield master build or want more skills. Expertise in athletics be gained with brawny feat too.

[Willie the Duck]

I didn't mean to derail your discussion with your friend's lack of optimization or game knowledge, sorry. For you, straight fighter (champion or BM) is great. Maybe a 1 level dip in rogue if you're after a shield master build or want more skills. Expertise in athletics be gained with brawny feat too.

Not at all! This is how threads are supposed to evolve. Besides, the main points have been made, and other than more people voicing their opinion, the thread has served its original purpose. I've decided to pick battlemaster over champion, because 1) the party seems to do a lot of Short Rests, and 2) I'd actually like to have to make a few decisions during combat. I've also decided to pick up Healer and Ritual Caster because, to be honest, because I want to. The rest is still up in the air, with a leaning towards Mobility, HAM, Resilient: Wisom, Mage Slayer (iff we start seeing some more enemy spell-casters) and away from SS, Sentinal, GWM, and PAM (again, to be honest, just because I'm sick of every martial build having to have these and I'd like to be able to prove that I can be good as a fighter without them). Shield master and a rogue dip might happen 1) sword and board looks to be a strategy that lines up with what the DM is handing out, and 2) if the DM just shoots my familiar out to the air the instant I try to use it to gain advantage on attacks.

The campaign has gotten weird already. We ran into a deck of many things and we all got something positive, and not much negative (barbarian druid got +2 con, -3 int. I got +3 con. the party rogue got wishes. The barbarian and the half-orc now have the persuasion skill :smalltongue:). I have a magic greataxe, although I think it might be a cursed item (hasn't triggered yet, but we got it way too easy). So a lot of this discussion might get completely wiped away tomorrow during session #3, when I'll probably get turned into a hippopotamus ballerina or get twice a day fireballs or who knows what. The discussion is still useful to have.


Well... I'm not sure where he wants to go combat-wise but, to be fair, even a Moon Druid with 14 WIS can really be awesome while out of shape: Longstrider, Healing Words, Heat Metal, Plant Growth, Spike Growth, Walls*, Conjures*, Warding Wind, are just a few of spells that can be of great benefit to a party however good (or bad) your casting stat is. As long as the caster thinks tactically about whole party's welfare at least. Which seems to be the main problem here, much more than the building itself*. XD
A druid is certainly a good place to go if you want to be able to work around a low primary stat. All of those are great spells in the right hands. ... The right hands :smallannoyed:


*Although with such godly stats, why the hell bother with Moon Druid? He'd actually fare better just leveling Barbarian (actually Ranger or Rogue but well)... And "THP from Wild Shape" is a sad argument since it actually is much worse AC than just Barbarian, so in a few sessions the full brunt of THP will last one turn, while just raging Barb's same amount of HP would last much much longer... I admit I fail to see the logic here.

The logic is that, regardless of the AC of the bear, or how quickly one goes through their THP, they are still THP on top of your HP, and then he gets a 20-22 AC, huge HP character who... well forget what he's going to actually do when he reverts back from bear, when he does so he'll have a great AC and HP.

This is the same player who in 3rd edition made a wizard the weakest (or at least least-contributive towards combat resolution) character in the party because the first 3-4 rounds of combat were defensive spells, and he got +6 constitution buffers before looking to boost his Int, and so forth. He plays M:tG the same way, decking himself to get his life-gain combos and building decks without clear win-strategies. It's clearly emotional/psychological, because he's definitely smart enough to figure out that it doesn't work. Perhaps his characters do end up surviving (because poor fools like me try to work around him) except when his non-contribution leads to a TPK (in which case everyone lost). The issue is, well what do you do, yell at him for playing what he wants to play? I've made clear how I believe he has hamstrung himself and why.

[KnotaGuru]

BM is a solid archetype with several options to create some uniqueness. Have you looked at monster hunter or samurai? Monster hunter gets you some specific maneuvers and a few skill bonuses. Samurai can be pretty durable.

[Willie the Duck]

No UA.

Anyways, in case anyone is following along, the druidbarian chose land druid instead, having noticed that the moon druid is already petering out. Of course with Dex and Con in the 18-20 range and a 16 Wisdom, and the fact that he mostly just attacks, I really don't know why he isn't just going up in barbarian levels and playing a hafling dex-barbarian, which to me sounds like a perfectly cool idea.

My character has been hit with 5 Wisdom saves in one session (every bandit group seems to have a caster, who inevitably casts hold person on the big, scary guy with greataxe and heavy armor (but never the bears, hmmm). So I am seriously considering Resilient:wis as my first feat.

[imanidiot]

Variant human with Heavy Armor Master Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Wis 13
Fighter (Champion) to 5 for Extra Attack and then Ranger 3 (Hunter) for Horde Breaker back to Fighter X. You'll frequently get an additional attack three levels before a pure fighter. Defense Fighting Style at 1 for 17 AC with a two hander, an additional Fighting Style at 8 you can use to compliment the best weapon you have so far. A third at 13 if you find something better. Hunter's Mark, Crossbow Master, Great Weapon master, or Shield Master can all give reliable bonus actions.
Runs out of steam at about 17 or 18 but most people don't play that high. Really shines from 8-11. Feats delayed until level 9 or so.

[Citan]

Not at all! This is how threads are supposed to evolve. Besides, the main points have been made, and other than more people voicing their opinion, the thread has served its original purpose. I've decided to pick battlemaster over champion, because 1) the party seems to do a lot of Short Rests, and 2) I'd actually like to have to make a few decisions during combat. I've also decided to pick up Healer and Ritual Caster because, to be honest, because I want to. The rest is still up in the air, with a leaning towards Mobility, HAM, Resilient: Wisom, Mage Slayer (iff we start seeing some more enemy spell-casters) and away from SS, Sentinal, GWM, and PAM (again, to be honest, just because I'm sick of every martial build having to have these and I'd like to be able to prove that I can be good as a fighter without them). Shield master and a rogue dip might happen 1) sword and board looks to be a strategy that lines up with what the DM is handing out, and 2) if the DM just shoots my familiar out to the air the instant I try to use it to gain advantage on attacks.

The campaign has gotten weird already. We ran into a deck of many things and we all got something positive, and not much negative (barbarian druid got +2 con, -3 int. I got +3 con. the party rogue got wishes. The barbarian and the half-orc now have the persuasion skill :smalltongue:). I have a magic greataxe, although I think it might be a cursed item (hasn't triggered yet, but we got it way too easy). So a lot of this discussion might get completely wiped away tomorrow during session #3, when I'll probably get turned into a hippopotamus ballerina or get twice a day fireballs or who knows what. The discussion is still useful to have.


A druid is certainly a good place to go if you want to be able to work around a low primary stat. All of those are great spells in the right hands. ... The right hands :smallannoyed:



The logic is that, regardless of the AC of the bear, or how quickly one goes through their THP, they are still THP on top of your HP, and then he gets a 20-22 AC, huge HP character who... well forget what he's going to actually do when he reverts back from bear, when he does so he'll have a great AC and HP.

This is the same player who in 3rd edition made a wizard the weakest (or at least least-contributive towards combat resolution) character in the party because the first 3-4 rounds of combat were defensive spells, and he got +6 constitution buffers before looking to boost his Int, and so forth. He plays M:tG the same way, decking himself to get his life-gain combos and building decks without clear win-strategies. It's clearly emotional/psychological, because he's definitely smart enough to figure out that it doesn't work. Perhaps his characters do end up surviving (because poor fools like me try to work around him) except when his non-contribution leads to a TPK (in which case everyone lost). The issue is, well what do you do, yell at him for playing what he wants to play? I've made clear how I believe he has hamstrung himself and why.


No UA.

Anyways, in case anyone is following along, the druidbarian chose land druid instead, having noticed that the moon druid is already petering out. Of course with Dex and Con in the 18-20 range and a 16 Wisdom, and the fact that he mostly just attacks, I really don't know why he isn't just going up in barbarian levels and playing a hafling dex-barbarian, which to me sounds like a perfectly cool idea.

My character has been hit with 5 Wisdom saves in one session (every bandit group seems to have a caster, who inevitably casts hold person on the big, scary guy with greataxe and heavy armor (but never the bears, hmmm). So I am seriously considering Resilient:wis as my first feat.

Hey again ;)
Thanks for keeping up updated, it's always interesting.

Could you please maybe update your opening post to reflect your current situations and choices you are set on so far? May help anyone stumbling on this discussion for the first time to provide "up-to-date" advice. ;)

Don't remember how high you are for now, level 2?3?
Considering your current experience, yeah, I'd definitely go for Resilient:Wisdom then as a priority. As an added bonus, it would allow you to take your desired Cleric dip just after, so you can add Bless on top of that improved Wis save.
Like Fighter 4 (Resilient) > 5 (because you are still a martial, you want Extra Attack ASAP) > Cleric 1 (Bless yourself -and others- and save the queen!) > Fighter 6 (Healer OR Ritual Caster OR bump attack, depending on your feeling of what is best for the party at the time).

As for your Barb/Druid pal, well, yeah, I'm wondering where he is going: this multiclass has the potential to be very strong but requires player to be smart about the induced bipolarity (since rage breaks casting). With your companion being more of a backliner "coward", I guess Land Druid is better but then, in his place, I'd seriously consider asking the DM for a "miraculous class rearrange" to replace Barbarian with Monk: sure, he would lose 1 point of AC, but he would gain a permanent bonus attack instead. Getting a few more levels would give him even better AC if he wished so thanks to Dodge as a bonus action for a Ki. Then going Shadow would give him a few extra spells to play with.
In short, he would still lose out on spellcasting but the features wouln't be incompatible like with Barbarian's Rage.

Agreed though that going Barbarian main could (would?) be better: keep a few Druid spells for out-of-encounter utility and prebuff and unleash hell during fights (if he wants to survive, you really can't beat Bearbarian raging)... But well, to each his own...

[Willie the Duck]

Could you please maybe update your opening post to reflect your current situations and choices you are set on so far? May help anyone stumbling on this discussion for the first time to provide "up-to-date" advice. ;)

Done.


Don't remember how high you are for now, level 2?3?
Considering your current experience, yeah, I'd definitely go for Resilient:Wisdom then as a priority. As an added bonus, it would allow you to take your desired Cleric dip just after, so you can add Bless on top of that improved Wis save.
Like Fighter 4 (Resilient) > 5 (because you are still a martial, you want Extra Attack ASAP) > Cleric 1 (Bless yourself -and others- and save the queen!) > Fighter 6 (Healer OR Ritual Caster OR bump attack, depending on your feeling of what is best for the party at the time).

Yes. getting Wisdom to 14 would mean that the knowledge cleric could memorize bless*, healing word, and either detect magic or cure wounds (and have command and identify from domain) memorized, increase the amount healed/ save DC. And yes, the real problem is that... at least until that long stretch between the ASI at 8th and the extra attack at 11th, there is no good time to delay going up in fighter. Probably after 6th (yeah, the second ASI at 8th is nice, but 7th is pretty barren), unless RP (which trumps all) makes it a better choice earlier).
*Bless seems like... well, even with proficient Con saves and an 18, (and 19 AC) it just seems like a poor idea to rely on bless being concentrated on by the party tank.


As for your Barb/Druid pal, well, yeah, I'm wondering where he is going: this multiclass has the potential to be very strong but requires player to be smart about the induced bipolarity (since rage breaks casting). With your companion being more of a backliner "coward", I guess Land Druid is better but then, in his place, I'd seriously consider asking the DM for a "miraculous class rearrange" to replace Barbarian with Monk: sure, he would lose 1 point of AC, but he would gain a permanent bonus attack instead. Getting a few more levels would give him even better AC if he wished so thanks to Dodge as a bonus action for a Ki. Then going Shadow would give him a few extra spells to play with.
In short, he would still lose out on spellcasting but the features wouln't be incompatible like with Barbarian's Rage.

Agreed though that going Barbarian main could (would?) be better: keep a few Druid spells for out-of-encounter utility and prebuff and unleash hell during fights (if he wants to survive, you really can't beat Bearbarian raging)... But well, to each his own...

To each their own is definitely the right response. I have to keep reminding myself of that. Still, If you are simply afraid of getting hit there are lots of options that would contribute better than half-baked bearbarian who probably will never pick up their second attack.

[Citan]

Done.



Yes. getting Wisdom to 14 would mean that the knowledge cleric could memorize bless*, healing word, and either detect magic or cure wounds (and have command and identify from domain) memorized, increase the amount healed/ save DC. And yes, the real problem is that... at least until that long stretch between the ASI at 8th and the extra attack at 11th, there is no good time to delay going up in fighter. Probably after 6th (yeah, the second ASI at 8th is nice, but 7th is pretty barren), unless RP (which trumps all) makes it a better choice earlier).
*Bless seems like... well, even with proficient Con saves and an 18, (and 19 AC) it just seems like a poor idea to rely on bless being concentrated on by the party tank.


Regarding Bless... Well, with proficiency and 18 CON we are looking at a +6 modifier.
At your current level you should rarely take more than 20 damage at any one time, so it makes your chance to fail only 15% stat.
Since Bless also applies to concentration saving throws, you add at the very least 1 more to your bonus, so it's down to 10% chance to fail that concentration.
Roll 1d4, so it means when Bless is active, you have 50% to succeed on those saves even when rolling a 1. Explanation?
Recap: you need to get result "equal or better" to DC, you already have 2 from proficiency, 4 from CON modifier, at least 1 from Bless, at least 1 from roll. So worst case ever you would end with 8 where you need to reach 10.
So you just need to roll 3 or 4 on that Bless die (50% chance if I'm not mistaken) to make that d20 roll irrelevant.

Also, I made calculations with your current character, but you will get Cleric at the very least as your 6th character level, so with a +3 proficiency bonus instead of +2.
So minimum bonus with Bless active 3+4+1 = 8. Only 5% chance to fail a DC 10 save ("roll 1"), 0% chance as long as you don't roll 1 on Bless die.

Let's take a random CR 5 monster, Gorgon (really the first I stumbled upon, no particular reason so maybe not the most representative -seems the chance to hit is a bit high-), to get a magnitude of how high enemies would hit at that level...
Average damage = 18, so you're safe. Max damage is 2d12+5 so 29, meaning DC 14 (didn't see in PHB, but usually it's rounded down). Not that good, but not that bad (chance to fail between 10% and 25% depending on Bless roll).
But Gorgon has to hit you first: with 19 AC (heavy armor + Defense), +8 bonus to hit, it has to roll a 11 minimum (50% chance).
If you really want to tank and assert that Bless is really good for your party, I'd daresay it would be worth swapping your greataxe for a more classic sword&board setup, further diminishing the chances to be hit.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can safely keep Bless active EVEN while tanking.

Or, you could consider that being proficient in WIS is good enough and instead go for Shield of Faith. ;) I think I demonstrated how "safe" is your concentration against most enemies, so an additional +2 AC helps for tanking.

[Willie the Duck]

I had never seen that broken down like that. Interesting.

I think bless trumps SoF for this character, as he *is* a team player (perhaps some leading by example).

[Citan]

I had never seen that broken down like that. Interesting.

I think bless trumps SoF for this character, as he *is* a team player (perhaps some leading by example).
I think this should hold true for "general" theory. Now if you want to be the only frontliner, SoF may still be better at times. ;)

Also, I really wouldn't prepare Cure Wounds. The use of action and lack of range are too big of shortcomings for you to bother with, compared to Healing Words, especially considering how few slots you will have AND the fact you plan on taking Healer feat sooner or later.

I would rather prepare Sanctuary to be honest, it can be useful in many situations, like...


1. Protect yourself while you are holding a small chokepoint,

2. Helping a friend keep concentration on a big spell (or just stay alive),

3. Or even keep a downed person alive, in situations in which you know Healing Words won't help, because your ally would have no way to escape more attacks, like the simple case of having one melee enemy whose turn comes first: Healing Words is wasted on the first hit, while Sanctuary may deflect multiple hits altogether.

Of course this is a case-by-case tactic though: using Sanctuary would be a top decision if it is to cover a caster out of slots (basically naked, not even Shield) until you cleared the field, while a currently downed Rogue may actually have the resources to survive until his round come (Defensive Duelist, or Uncanny Dodge) then use Cunning Action to Disengage safely or Dash back, or an Eldricht Knight could use Shield to laugh in the face of enemies, then use his Second Wind as bonus action and counter-Attack... Making Healing Words a legitimate gamble or the plain best choice in the latter situations. ;)



To each their own is definitely the right response. I have to keep reminding myself of that. Still, If you are simply afraid of getting hit there are lots of options that would contribute better than half-baked bearbarian who probably will never pick up their second attack.
Indeed there are, but to his defense many of them would require keeping concentration on a spell (like Shield of Faith) or investing quite a few levels in another class (like Rogue's Evasion or Monk's Deflect Arrows) or get a different stat array (to multiclass into a caster who gets Shield or Mirror Image).

Honestly this is not a bad decision optimization-wise to be honest, considering how Druids normally suffer much in terms of AC. It's just a kinda waste on the rage part, hence my comment about how Monk may have been better. But he played his stats, and if/when he starts playing the strength of Druid, a class with like 75% of the good spells being concentration, himself, and you, and the whole party, will be glad he is so damn hard to hit and break concentration (obviously Warcaster or Resilient:Con is mandatory ;)).

[Willie the Duck]

Honestly this is not a bad decision optimization-wise to be honest, considering how Druids normally suffer much in terms of AC. It's just a kinda waste on the rage part, hence my comment about how Monk may have been better. But he played his stats, and if/when he starts playing the strength of Druid, a class with like 75% of the good spells being concentration, himself, and you, and the whole party, will be glad he is so damn hard to hit and break concentration (obviously Warcaster or Resilient:Con is mandatory ;)).

Well, yes, and I don't necessarily have a problem with the person who takes a level of fighter and defense fighting style before going up wizard just for the 21 AC, so it would be arbitrary to be too harsh on someone who did the same for a druid build (in ways that a druid can accomplish). However, back when he had 18+ in Dex and Con, but a 14 in Wisdom it looked really really 'my-god-would-you-get-over-your-damage-and-build-an-effective-character!?'-esque. The +2 wisdom makes it much more reasonable to me... if he starts playing a land druid. I have visions of him continuing to fight as a dex-barbarian with his 1d8+4 or 5 even at 8th, 9th, 10th level, reserving his spells for heals and the occasional druid direct damage and wondering why we keep having trouble surviving.