Wildcat Archetype Monk Optimization - Pocket Sand for Days

[Sparkwell]

So, I was browsing through published archetypes the other day, when I came upon the Wildcat archetype for the core monk. Now, I've wanted to play a dirty brawler for a while, however I've been leery of builds that focus too heavily on grapple-optimizing (if I want to play a dirty-trick fighting, disease-scarred, and malnourished street urchin, I want more pocket sand and groin punches and less chokeholds). Furthermore, I was amazed that the archetype basically dropped everything from the core monk that made the monk... monk. No ki-pool (which means relying on magic items to make unarmed strikes pierce magic DR), no slow fall, no abundant step, etc, etc, etc.

Now, I'm fairly new to pathfinder, and the sheer amount of monk style feats blew me away. Furthermore, the archetype basically screams for Improved DT, Quick DT, and Greater DT, which is three feats gone. Finally, I'm not sure what to think about the improvised weapon section - while taking catch off-guard/improvised weapon mastery could make improvised weapon damage comparable to unarmed damage for the wildcat monk, is there any point to actually doing so? What could they gain from an improvised weapon? Why not just use the mug of beer to splash in an opponents eyes for the dirty trick and then pummel them with fists instead?

Any thoughts from anyone about the right arrangement of feats for a wildcat monk that doesn't stray too far from the character idea of a dirty/ragged street urchin brawler?

Cheers!

[Geddy2112]

I would shy away from improvised weapons, considering you always have your fists/feet, which do more damage. Unless for some reason the improvised weapon was made of some magical mcguffin material needed to kill the BBEG or something along those lines. Or it is a monster like a gelatinous cube you don't want to touch.

Obviously you want the dirty trick feat tree, but you can use your monk feats to help you out on those(or at least grab other feats). Instead of taking combat expertise, take dirty fighting to bypass both combat expertise and the 13 int requirement. Consider getting the kistune style feat tree, or at least the first two, allowing you to dirty trick on a charge and apply 2 debuff conditions with one dirty trick.
So I would go with this
1: dirty fighting
2:dodge,deflect arrows, or combat reflexes
3:Improved dirty trick
5:kitsune style
6:deflect arrows,dodge, combat reflexes
7:kitsune tricks
9:greater dirty trick
10:quick dirty trick
11:dirty trick master

The kitsune style at least gives you the ability to do it on a charge, but until you can quick dirty trick the whole dirty trick ability is kind of meh as it takes a standard action, and can be undone with a move. That said, it can apply a lot of debuffs.

[Psyren]

So, I was browsing through published archetypes the other day, when I came upon the Wildcat archetype for the core monk. Now, I've wanted to play a dirty brawler for a while, however I've been leery of builds that focus too heavily on grapple-optimizing (if I want to play a dirty-trick fighting, disease-scarred, and malnourished street urchin, I want more pocket sand and groin punches and less chokeholds). Furthermore, I was amazed that the archetype basically dropped everything from the core monk that made the monk... monk. No ki-pool (which means relying on magic items to make unarmed strikes pierce magic DR), no slow fall, no abundant step, etc, etc, etc.

It's still got plenty of monk stuff - unarmed strike, AC bonus, fast movement, flurry, etc.



Now, I'm fairly new to pathfinder, and the sheer amount of monk style feats blew me away. Furthermore, the archetype basically screams for Improved DT, Quick DT, and Greater DT, which is three feats gone.

It adds two of those to your bonus feat list though, so you've got plenty left.



Finally, I'm not sure what to think about the improvised weapon section - while taking catch off-guard/improvised weapon mastery could make improvised weapon damage comparable to unarmed damage for the wildcat monk, is there any point to actually doing so? What could they gain from an improvised weapon? Why not just use the mug of beer to splash in an opponents eyes for the dirty trick and then pummel them with fists instead?

Without Monk of the Empty Hand, I'd say no, there isn't much point to Improvised Weapons. Just ignore that class feature entirely and use your fists, unless you're in a low-magic campaign for some reason.

[Sparkwell]

I would shy away from improvised weapons, considering you always have your fists/feet, which do more damage. Unless for some reason the improvised weapon was made of some magical mcguffin material needed to kill the BBEG or something along those lines. Or it is a monster like a gelatinous cube you don't want to touch.

Obviously you want the dirty trick feat tree, but you can use your monk feats to help you out on those(or at least grab other feats). Instead of taking combat expertise, take dirty fighting to bypass both combat expertise and the 13 int requirement. Consider getting the kistune style feat tree, or at least the first two, allowing you to dirty trick on a charge and apply 2 debuff conditions with one dirty trick.
So I would go with this
1: dirty fighting
2:dodge,deflect arrows, or combat reflexes
3:Improved dirty trick
5:kitsune style
6:deflect arrows,dodge, combat reflexes
7:kitsune tricks
9:greater dirty trick
10:quick dirty trick
11:dirty trick master

The kitsune style at least gives you the ability to do it on a charge, but until you can quick dirty trick the whole dirty trick ability is kind of meh as it takes a standard action, and can be undone with a move. That said, it can apply a lot of debuffs.

This is very helpful, thank you both. Wasn't aware of dirty fighting as a feat but it solves the MAD problem I was having. Time to dump CHA and INT! Clearly the build really takes off when you can quick dirty trick as you can then also do damage in the same turn. Just to clarify on the number of feats though - assuming human as a race - it seems like it should be possible to take kitsune style at level 1. Though, I guess I'd take it at 3 and take IDT at 1 instead. Ergo, using your build as a template...

1. Dirty Fighting, Improved Dirty Trick, Dodge
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Kitsune Style
5. Kitsune Tricks
6. Improved Trip/Improved Disarm (options for AoO + other maneuvers from the Wildcat class feature?)
7. Boar Style (option for dealing damage? - is there something better that could go here?)
9. Greater Dirty Trick
10. Quick Dirty Trick
11. Dirty Trick Master

Theoretically I could take Catch Off-Guard in there somewhere as well if I wanted to make the improvised weapon feature more useful, but as you've said I don't really see the point if we're focusing on dirty trick debuffing.

Thanks for the feedback so far!