WTF is... Crafting (The Mundane and the Magical)

[Angrad]

So let me preface this entire post by stating that I am well aware with D&D that at the end of the day it boils down to the want and judgement of the specific DM, I am just genuinely curious if I am misunderstanding the rules, or if there are better rules? I have no idea but this is confusing and annoying me to no end...

So.

In the 5e PHB on Page 187 it talks about "Downtime Activities" - The first one mentioned, which my character has an interest in as an Artificer, is the rules for Crafting Mundane Items.
According to the rules, as written, working each day contributes effectively 5 golds worth of effort toward the item you are trying to craft. Once you reach the value of the item in question you have officially "crafted" it.
EXAMPLE:
A Handaxe costs 5 gold in the equipment list of the PHB, so with these rules you can craft it in a day.
Alternatively, a more extreme example:
A set of Plate Armor costs 1,500 gold, meaning that it would take you 300 days of work to create a set of Plate Armor...

Now that seems a little rough, but it's understandable; leaning a little more toward a realistic approach to crafting things, after all a full set of Plate Armor is a massive and intricate thing.

NOW,
Let's look at the rules of MAGICAL Item Creation introduced in the 5e DMG on page 129...
These rules state that each kind of Magical Item introduced in the DMG is ranked by a level of Rarity and each level of Rarity has a set gold value that you need to reach to successfully craft the item. Similar to the Mundane Item Creation rules, yeah? Except with Magical Items, 8 hours of work contributes 25 gold to the project...

So I'm an Artificer. I have proficiency in Smith's Tools. I want to make one of my companions some Plate Mail...
Why does crafting MAGICAL ADAMANTINE PLATE MAIL take TWENTY DAYS (an uncommon magical item, so valued at 500 gold, with 25 golds worth of work being put in each day) when a NORMAL SET OF PLATE ARMOR takes THREE HUNDRED (see above example of Mundane Item Craft)!?!?!?!?!

Mind you, Adamantine Armor isn't worded to suggest just enchanting a set of pre-existing armor. It can be ANY medium or heavy armor excluding Hide, and it states that the armor is "reinforced" with adamantine - realistically, all things considered; as realistically as the time it would take to craft plate armor is handled above, when you reinforce a suit of armor with a substance you don't just tack the **** on like some tassels; you build it up from the base and reinforce the core components with and add and lace the material as needed.

I know the quick answer to my confusion is "Whatever the DM says" since it IS written that the DM can tack on whatever components they might feel are necessary (though the example isn't anywhere near as intensive as needing to, say, craft Plate and THEN craft the Adamantine, which would take 320 days to completely finish. Instead the example is: you might need an alchemy set to make a potion, or you might need lava present to create a flame tongue).
But why does it feel like these two rules feel like they are going to operate so differently from each other? I know Plate Armor is one of the more extreme examples of it but the fact that I can make a Broom of Flying in 20 days but it takes me 200 to make a god damn spyglass seems so ridiculous.

I haven't put any crafting into practice yet, I've been working on a specific project involving attaching a weapon to another weapon like a trick-weapon from the game Bloodborne, but I wanted to have a solid idea of how crafting worked before I got too into detail with my DM about it (we have a large group and it's rude of me to take up so much of the game time discussing rules so we prefer for me to have an idea of what I need done before hand) -- How do people feel about these item creation rules? Do they actually work okay in practice? Are there any alternatives people could suggest?
I just want to find a balanced middle ground that myself and my DM can use with some confidence...

Side-note:
That trick-weapon I was talking about? In its current state I'm allowed one roll a week and I need 3 successful rolls, so it's taking me 3 weeks to attach an axe blade to a thunder cannon, obviously I'm a little disappointed because that means other projects will take RIDICULOUS amounts of time and ultimately be worthless in the "time-spent" to the "are we even still low enough level for this item to be useful?" ratio.

[qube]

not saying right or wrong, but something odd you seems to just skim over:


A set of Plate Armor costs 1,500 gold

MAGICAL ADAMANTINE PLATE MAIL ... an uncommon magical item, so valued at 500 gold

[Tanarii]

If your DM isn't including the base price of non-magical item in the value of a magical item, and is allowing it to be crafted at the magical item crafting rate based on the magical component's value, that's on your DM. If you're a player in such a game, go wild!

Edit: I do think that 5 gp / day (fixed) is a silly rule, even if I understand why they did it. Because many very expensive items aren't that way because they take a long time. They're that way because of skill / knowledge required, or expensive / rare materials needed. For example, 300 days for Full Plate is fine (if a tad long and putting it out of reach of most PCs). But 20 days for a spyglass or vial of Basic Poison or Alchemists Fire is silly. At least Healing Potions are technically magical items, so they should be made in just 4 days.

[Angrad]

not saying right or wrong, but something odd you seems to just skim over:

I know right? According to the crafting rules you'd use the items market value shown in the PHB for mundane items and according to the DMG you use the set tier values based on the rarity of the item - so yeah - that's probably not the price you'd have to pay if you wanted to buy a set of adamantine armor, but the value you need to reach is not only lower than plate armor but the incrementing value you get toward making the adamantine is way higher than it is toward making the plate.

[Angrad]

If your DM isn't including the base price of non-magical item in the value of a magical item, and is allowing it to be crafted at the magical item crafting rate based on the magical component's value, that's on your DM. If you're a player in such a game, go wild!

Edit: I do think that 5 gp / day (fixed) is a silly rule, even if I understand why they did it. Because many very expensive items aren't that way because they take a long time. They're that way because of skill / knowledge required, or expensive / rare materials needed. For example, 300 days for Full Plate is fine (if a tad long and putting it out of reach of most PCs). But 20 days for a spyglass or vial of Basic Poison or Alchemists Fire is silly. At least Healing Potions are technically magical items, so they should be made in just 4 days.

I know the logical response is for the DM to merge the prices and time or have some other judgement implimented, but it bothers me that the DMG doesn't specifically encourage that, so just straight up out of the book the rules are SO weird.

[Mikal]

If your DM isn't including the base price of non-magical item in the value of a magical item, and is allowing it to be crafted at the magical item crafting rate based on the magical component's value, that's on your DM. If you're a player in such a game, go wild!

Edit: I do think that 5 gp / day (fixed) is a silly rule, even if I understand why they did it. Because many very expensive items aren't that way because they take a long time. They're that way because of skill / knowledge required, or expensive / rare materials needed. For example, 300 days for Full Plate is fine (if a tad long and putting it out of reach of most PCs). But 20 days for a spyglass or vial of Basic Poison or Alchemists Fire is silly. At least Healing Potions are technically magical items, so they should be made in just 4 days.

One thing you could do is make the magic item creation rules also apply to "complex" item creation as well. That would include spyglasses, poisons, and alchemical substances. Now they take 2 days or so.

Regarding the magic plate, if you didn't want to modify creation times, you could say that the time difference is due to the material in question. When using adamantine, a rare and valuable substance, smithing is easier, more malleable when in the forge, and takes less time to cool and shape, especially when one considers it requires magic to do so effectively.

[Aett_Thorn]

I know the logical response is for the DM to merge the prices and time or have some other judgement implimented, but it bothers me that the DMG doesn't specifically encourage that, so just straight up out of the book the rules are SO weird.

I think that the crafting times for most small items are fine. It's when you get into the really expensive items that it gets a bit wonky, mainly because the cost differences there are made to keep you from getting the items too early, and not because they are worth that much more. Yes, full plate mail would take a while to make, but probably not 300 days. Several months, sure, but not 5/6 of the year.

I think that any reasonable DM would adjust some of this stuff to better suit the campaign, anyways. Do you really want a character to be gone from the party for the better part of a year just because they want to make themselves some plate mail? Or would you lower that down to a more reasonable time frame to get everyone back together?

https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/20833/how-long-does-it-take-to-craft-the-kinds-of-armour-worn-by-typical-medieval-warr

[mrumsey]

when you reinforce a suit of armor with a substance you don't just tack the **** on like some tassels

I don't know. I'm starting to like this idea. Demon smiting Paladin running around with adamantine tassels on his armor as he dances death through his enemies.

The party rogue got jealous and wanted elven armor, so he tacks a few elves to his shoulders and finds that his recent additions do make him less likely to be hurt, but get in the way of sneaking - what with all the injured elves around.

[Unoriginal]

Reminder that using several people to help you craft diminishes the time it takes to craft.


Someone crafting a plate armor all alone from start to finish would take a lot of it, it's not surprising. The same person with two assistants will do it way faster.


On the subject of plate armor vs adamantine plate armor:


ADAMANTINE ARMOR

This suit of armor is reinforced with adamantine, one of the hardest substances in existence.

An adamantine armor is a normal armor with adamantine added to it. Ergo, you have to take the normal plate armor that cost 1500 gp and then use your magical formula to add the adamantine for 500 gp and 20 days of work.

[Tanarii]

Reminder that using several people to help you craft diminishes the time it takes to craft.


Someone crafting a plate armor all alone from start to finish would take a lot of it, it's not surprising. The same person with two assistants will do it way faster.
Yeah, I was going to jump in with the same thing. A Guildcrafter Smith PC, getting the help of 2 PC Dwarves*, the town blacksmith, and his 2 assistants, can craft Half Plate in 25 days and Full Plate in 50. If you've got 10 days of downtime per adventuring day, and start sinking your money immediately after your first treasure hoard, it's possible to get Half Plate by level 4 and Full Plate by 5-1/2. Faster if you get lucky on the hoards or roll with a small party. Although getting that many PC crafters together is unlikely in a single party adventure-arc 'campaign table, let alone the necessary downtime. Far easier in a multiparty full-on campaign table, with automatic downtime between each session.

*IMX Smiths Tools is by far the most common choice for PC dwarves.

[Willie the Duck]

This is the logical consequence of having three bands of cost structure for magic items and making the time to craft based on cost. If you want a more reasonable setup, you need to make a much more complicated system, and I think WotC wisely decided that their player base wasn't interested in that, even if it made things occasionally wonky. Until they modify things, remind me to write up a national aquaduct that is a minor magical item. It'll save the national economy (but disrupt the labor market).

Not that any other edition had a system that didn't have it's own wonkiness. 3e, I believe, had a time and raw requirements system based on cost. So costless items (like clubs or quarterstaves) could be made without raw materials (not even tree branches) and could be made infinitely quickly.

[Vogie]

Magic items are created faster because they're magic.

Bah-dum-tiss

But seriously, you could make the case that the rule is there to create a labor pool for the NPCs and explain why certain things are only available in cities. A Forgeworking shop with 15 blacksmiths can hammer out a set of plate armor in under a week, which explains why a large city will have such sets for sale, and also why expensive items aren't available in tiny hamlets. Yes, a small township with a blacksmith and his apprentice *could* knock out a set of plate mail, but it would take too long, so they would focus on ring mail, chain mail, or splint armor, at the most.

[KorvinStarmast]

An adamantine armor is a normal armor with adamantine added to it. Ergo, you have to take the normal plate armor that cost 1500 gp and then use your magical formula to add the adamantine for 500 gp and 20 days of work. Makes sense to me. KISS principle as well

But seriously, you could make the case that the rule is there to create a labor pool for the NPCs and explain why certain things are only available in cities. A Forgeworking shop with 15 blacksmiths can hammer out a set of plate armor in under a week, which explains why a large city will have such sets for sale, and also why expensive items aren't available in tiny hamlets. Yes, a small township with a blacksmith and his apprentice *could* knock out a set of plate mail, but it would take too long, so they would focus on ring mail, chain mail, or splint armor, at the most. Makes sense.

[Kane0]

Easy solution:
You're an artificer, you use magic to compliment your crafting. You always use the magic 25gp/day rather than the standard 5gp/day for any item you make.

Theres also the option of getting assistants; each one nets you an extra 5gp/day

[JackOfAllBuilds]

What if you only had to work a number of days (at 5gp/day) equal to the Material price instead of the Market price? Cuts the time in half. More realistic?

[Medea]

Hi All, longtime lurker, first time poster.

My English is kinda bad, but i hope i can make some sense.

I was brainstorming about crafting and made some changes.
Perhaps you can get some inspirations from my ramblings.

----------

15gp/day. Prof.Tool, have crafted this item alot.
10gp/day, Prof.Tool, crafted this item before.
5gp/day, Prof.Tool, never crafted item before.
1gp/day, missing Prof, never crafted item before.
----------

Fullplate, 1500gp.

1500/15 = 100 days.

1500/10 = 150 days.

1500/5 = 300 days.

1500/1 = 1500 days.
----------

Working with others add there xgp/day.


Worker 1: 15.
Worker 2: 10.
Worker 3: 5.

15+10+5 = 30.
-----

Fullplate, 1500gp.

1500/30 = 50 days.
-----

Max workers per workplace is a DM call.

Rule of thumb:

City: 6 workers (great supply of material and tools)

Town: 4 worker (have whats needed)

Village: 2 workers (limited by material and tools)
----------

A City with 6st master armorsmiths.
-----

15*6 = 90.

1500/90 ~ 17 days.
-----

To supply an army:

10.000strong, 170.000 days of work. ~ 466 years.

1000strong, 17.000 days of work. ~ 47 years.

100strong, 1.700 days work. ~ 5 years.
----------

Expenses during Crafting:

Rule of thumb:

Prices per day, per Worker.

Reveard by thoes around you, 5 Silver. (gifts and favors lowers your expenses.)

Friendly: 10 Silver. (some small pricechange in your favor.)

Unknown/Neutral: 15 Silver. (no favors)


If you find yourself in a "hostile" enviorment, then people will
try and swindel you with fake prices.
-----

[Kane0]

Oh, don't forget the UA crafting!

The adapted version I use:
Crafting an Item
Requires appropriate tools and proficiency in order to make the item in question, plus access to materials worth half the price of the item to be created. Make a check using your tools each week to determine how much progress is made:
1-5: 25gp that week
6-10: 50gp that week
11-15: 100gp that week
16-20: 200gp that week
21+: 500gp that week

Magic items also require a successful arcana check in order to make progress and add to the base cost of the item:
Common magic item: DC 10 Arcana & 100gp
Uncommon magic item: DC 15 Arcana & 1,000gp
Rare magic item: DC 20 Arcana & 10,000gp
Very Rare magic item: DC 25 Arcana & 100,000gp
Scrolls are 2/3 the standard cost and the relevant tool proficiency is the scribing kit
Potions are 1/3 the standard cost and the relevant tool proficiency is either the alchemy or herbalism kit

Failing an Arcana check incurs a complication for that week (reagents lost, rumors arise, etc)

[Unoriginal]

Honestly I don't get why people want to speed up crafting.

Especially for plate armor. Plate armor is more useful than many magic items, given how well it protects.

[Spacehamster]

Ways to make crafting better depending on your proficiency in it.

+1 = 5gp/day
+2 = 6/gp/day
+3 = 7gp/day and so on up to +11 for max normal prof with 15gp/day.

Expertise in it doubles the gp/day.

[Ruebin Rybnik]

I agree that at first the two systems seem to be conflicting, especially with no clear instructions in the DMG on how to use them together. After really looking at them agree with others, and believe the cost of the magic item is meant to be added to the cost of the mundane item. ie Adamantium Plate cost 2,000 gp and takes 320 days to craft by yourself.

Now as other i have made changes because it is crafting and i believe that there should be a skill check involved. I've been catching a ball sense I was 5, doesn't mean i catch every ball thrown at me.

Nat 1 on the die = you lose 5 gp progess on started item, or just loss of materials for 5gp or less items.
SC less than 13 equals no progress, because even at lvl 1 this means you probably rolled less than 8 on the die with a strong stat or 10 with a weak stat.
SC13-18 = 5 gp of progress
SC19-23 = 10 gp of progress
SC24+ = 15 gp of progress
Nat 20 is that moment when you perform perfectly and is worth 30 gp of progress.

So as your physical ability and proficiency improve through levels it becomes easier to attain better progress. If you have expertise you will hit the 15 gp more than the 5 gp.

[Mjolnirbear]

Honestly I don't get why people want to speed up crafting.

Especially for plate armor. Plate armor is more useful than many magic items, given how well it protects.

For my Kobold Artificer, I wanted to make poisons. No damage ones, but ones that gave status effects. Without speed-up rules, poison is useless to make.

Crafter rarely want to be merchants. They want something specific out of crafting. Your rogue uses poison for assassinations. Your fighter wants to be able to use the gear he finds. You are used to mages gathering pieces from slain foes for use in spells and magical creation. Or you just want that one item for your character.

The rules were, I think, written this way to avoid gold-making exploits. Which is fine. But Gold is next to useless in this edition because anything worth spending it on (once you have all your mundane gear) is also going to take billions of hours of downtime anyways. Given the time invested they might as well have made it functional.

On the other hand, this definitely forces things into the ask your DM area, which is a running theme.

[Coidzor]

Honestly I don't get why people want to speed up crafting.

Because it's so slow it breaks immersion, for one thing.

[Unoriginal]

Because it's so slow it breaks immersion, for one thing.

How so, specifically?

[Kite474]

Honestly I don't get why people want to speed up crafting.

Especially for plate armor. Plate armor is more useful than many magic items, given how well it protects.

Generally, because a lot of people find the appeal of making their own toolset and people like some self-sufficiency especially if your DM doesn't taylor items.

With how slow crafting is currently it's basically worthless for anything: Rogues cant make poisons, Wizards can't cook up weird stuff, Fighters bassicly are stuck with haveing nothing to spend anything on.

To compound this gold is basically useless in this edition. It would be nice if crafting could be a pleasant gold sink.

[Unoriginal]

Have you thought about hiring assistants to speed things up?

Hirelings are a good way to spend money.


Also, things taking time to craft is not new. Crafting magic items was a time sink, in previous editions.

And basically all weapons, armors, equipment and the common magic items don't take that much time to craft.

[Kite474]

Have you thought about hiring assistants to speed things up?

Hirelings are a good way to spend money.


Also, things taking the time to craft is not new. Crafting magic items was a time sink, in previous editions.

And basically, all weapons, armors, equipment and the common magic items don't take that much time to craft.

In my experience Hirelings are just not entities that aren't really all that much fun. In combat, they tend to be worthless, in crafting they do speed things up but don't really give the satisfaction of player crafting, they are more akin to buying a factory.

As for mundane equipment, this is relatively true outside of plate-mail, but at the same time, your going to burn through mundane needs REALLY fast. There is just not a lot of things to get in 5e.

As for timesinks. Yeah they definitely have existed, but they were much smaller back in the day and there were ways to speed it up or make it more convenient

[Tanarii]

As for timesinks. Yeah they definitely have existed, but they were much smaller back in the day and there were ways to speed it up or make it more convenient
Time sinks were not much smaller back in the day. Neither were money sinks. Unless 'back in the day' means you started in 3e or something.

[Chugger]

I was thinking, if it could be done relatively easily and without too much money, that a beserker barb could be playable (and go berserk more than once a day) if he/she had access to several of those potions that cure exhaustion - blanking on the name and don't have book atm.

And I'm guessing I could go off the potion's rarity - half it - and look up on the tables how to fashion this potion - and if several players helped the party could keep such a barb (maybe) with enough potions so he/she doesn't "fall apart" from too much zerking - could at least do it a reasonable amount.

[Willie the Duck]

Time sinks were not much smaller back in the day. Neither were money sinks. Unless 'back in the day' means you started in 3e or something.

I'm pretty sure that is the reason for 5gp/day crafting and 25 gp/day magic crafting. They were trying to make it possible, but unfulfilling, so that you would go back to the dungeon to get your cool stuff.


In my experience Hirelings are just not entities that aren't really all that much fun. In combat, they tend to be worthless, in crafting they do speed things up but don't really give the satisfaction of player crafting, they are more akin to buying a factory.

In a system where there's very little keeping the giants from wading through the front line's OAs to smash the high-threat-low-survivable spellcasters, you don't see the value of putting a wall of soldiers with pikes around the wizard?