I think I dug a hole for myself as a GM. Help moving on from Lost Mines 5e.

[shadowkat678]

So, I may have edited some things from the module. Of course, be warned for spoilers. I guess for you guys to understand what I need help with, it's probably going to require the backstory that has me where I'm stuck now.

So I felt like Nezznar was no where near the villain he could have been, right? Where was his backstory? Why did he want the mine? Why was he on the surface in the first place???

So, I decided to make things...a bit more complicated. The Black Spider fled the Underdark with his brother and sister ( I changed the doppelgangers into actual drow), and they've been on the surface for at least 15 years. Gathering connections. Getting footholds in major cities. Planning...something.

Glasstaff got away, so I had it where he and The Black Spider's sister have been in communication to double cross Nezznar. Why? Well...I kinda don't have the definite end goal. I never expected to tweak the story so much, but things kinda happened after a few spur of the moment decisions. If I could go back and plan more I could, but right now the motivation for turning is she's tired of being a underling. She was the house priestess before the siblings were discovered trying to overthrow their mother. But she didn't have allies, so she tempted Iarno with power, and has started gaining her own allies to overthrow her brothers.

I tied a lot of other things in the module in. Like Agatha warning the players of "many forces working in the background." The Orcs were hired by Nezznar. The Bugbears and goblins deserted for his sister and Iarno. Since the Green Dragon escaped, he might make a eventual reappearance.

The Black Spider mentioned having spies in Neverwinter in his note to Iarno, so I feel like something with that could be the next step. But we'd been playing weekly and I hadn't had to to plan everything I should for all this. Like the journal they found of Nezznar after they defeated his brother (the Black Spider left Wave Echo Cave to find his sister and then come back when he found out about her betrayal, leaving his brother and a hoard of orcs in charge.). It mentions a little about his past, that he has connections across Fearun, but is pretty vague.

I'm not sure what to do next. One idea is getting Nezznar to try and indirectly manipulate them into taking out his sister. But I still need to find out their motivations. Real life stuff has gotten in the way. We'll be playing biweekly now, since college is starting back up, so hopefully that'll give me more time to think about stuff. But I need ideas. If I had to go back I wouldn't have tried this my first time GMing, but I got excited. I like plotting and planning things...I just have an issue with misjudging later steps.

I also have a lot down for Neverwinter. The political tensions surrounding lord Nevermember. The Church of Eilistreea has been added in. For those who don't know, Eilistreea is a chaotic good goddess and the one good drow patron. There's the orcs in the Tower District. Lots of shady stuff in Bluelake. Etc.

[Nidgit]

This doesn't seem like much of a hole, really. You've just got a couple plot threads you need to maintain.

I'd recommend focusing on the two Drows' larger motivations and goals, and how they conflict. Their escape from the Underdark has some good backstory potential: maybe Nazznar wants to establish his own organization to comfortably live near the surface while the sister plots revenge on Drow society, supported by the illithids. Maybe Nazznar was secretly blackmailed and co-opted by the Drow and his sister feels betrayed, or the Drow offered her the chance to return if she did things for them. In each case, establishing a powerful group supporting behind one or both of the siblings adds new complexity and makes them more interesting characters.

Not sure what kind of intrigue you have planned in Neverwinter but perhaps the drow siblings were planning to forge a magical item for use in the city. A coup or heist are probably the simplest answers, which could serve the interests of another group or rival city.

And if you're looking for how to get your players to Neverwinter, let them capture someone like Glassstaff and be advised to take him there for justice. Give them some time to breathe and relish their victory before involving them in the intrigue from a different angle. When they find out it's all related you'll feel very accomplished.

[Armored Walrus]

If they have won Wave Echo Cave someone will be looking to develop it and mine it, and set up shop at the magic well or whatever it is.

If Gundren is still alive there's the offer he makes to give the party 10% of the proceeds from the mine in exchange for cleaning it out. So that's something that can occupy their time while you figure out how the drow will come back at the party.

In short, it's side quest time. The drow will be licking their wounds for a bit, so they don't need to be involved in every session. The party might find deeper caverns below Wave Echo Cave. Gundren might move his clan in and start mining, only to uncover them, and ask the party to clear them out as well. You can also look at some of the other published adventures that take place in the area and use pieces of them for side quests.

You might have remnants of the Redcloaks causing trouble near town in some small way, or find out the orcs at Wyvern Tor were the vanguard of a larger orc invasion. Or that necromancer (Kost?) might make some trouble if the party hasn't already killed him. He might find whatever it is he was looking for. Or, as you said, the green dragon could make a reappearance. The thing is these don't all have to be neatly interconnected. Some sessions can be pure side quests that have nothing to do with your conspiracy plot.


For what it's worth, I think you've woven a pretty nice tapestry there, so don't start to doubt yourself now. All the drow intrigue is true to D&D's drow lore, and all holds up under its own logic. Looks like the foundations of a good campaign.

[shadowkat678]

If they have won Wave Echo Cave someone will be looking to develop it and mine it, and set up shop at the magic well or whatever it is.

If Gundren is still alive there's the offer he makes to give the party 10% of the proceeds from the mine in exchange for cleaning it out. So that's something that can occupy their time while you figure out how the drow will come back at the party.

In short, it's side quest time. The drow will be licking their wounds for a bit, so they don't need to be involved in every session. The party might find deeper caverns below Wave Echo Cave. Gundren might move his clan in and start mining, only to uncover them, and ask the party to clear them out as well. You can also look at some of the other published adventures that take place in the area and use pieces of them for side quests.

You might have remnants of the Redcloaks causing trouble near town in some small way, or find out the orcs at Wyvern Tor were the vanguard of a larger orc invasion. Or that necromancer (Kost?) might make some trouble if the party hasn't already killed him. He might find whatever it is he was looking for. Or, as you said, the green dragon could make a reappearance. The thing is these don't all have to be neatly interconnected. Some sessions can be pure side quests that have nothing to do with your conspiracy plot.


For what it's worth, I think you've woven a pretty nice tapestry there, so don't start to doubt yourself now. All the drow intrigue is true to D&D's drow lore, and all holds up under its own logic. Looks like the foundations of a good campaign.

I think the major thing that makes it seem like a "hole" is how big of a scope this seems to be when I haven't had the time. They've already arrived in Neverwinter, though I was thinking about Gundren sending a note about an issue later on in levels.
They did not discover Kost, so he could certainly be used. The orcs were from the Many Arrows tribe, which is the same group who's taken over the Neverwinter Temple District. So many I can use that.

And thanks. I think I'm just feeling really pressured since this is my first time, and I don't want it to get out of hand where I had all this lead up just to later disappoint my players.


This doesn't seem like much of a hole, really. You've just got a couple plot threads you need to maintain.

I'd recommend focusing on the two Drows' larger motivations and goals, and how they conflict. Their escape from the Underdark has some good backstory potential: maybe Nazznar wants to establish his own organization to comfortably live near the surface while the sister plots revenge on Drow society, supported by the illithids. Maybe Nazznar was secretly blackmailed and co-opted by the Drow and his sister feels betrayed, or the Drow offered her the chance to return if she did things for them. In each case, establishing a powerful group supporting behind one or both of the siblings adds new complexity and makes them more interesting characters.

Not sure what kind of intrigue you have planned in Neverwinter but perhaps the drow siblings were planning to forge a magical item for use in the city. A coup or heist are probably the simplest answers, which could serve the interests of another group or rival city.

And if you're looking for how to get your players to Neverwinter, let them capture someone like Glassstaff and be advised to take him there for justice. Give them some time to breathe and relish their victory before involving them in the intrigue from a different angle. When they find out it's all related you'll feel very accomplished.

Hm. I like the idea of his sister being given a chance to return to the city. I just need to figure out how. Maybe some of the Underdark drow find the worshipers of Eilistreea to be traitors, and they could tie in? The players are already in Neverwinter, and one of them went to visit the temple. The temple is located at the edge of the Protectors Enclave, due to have been driven by other city residents that just saw them as drow. The player already told them to ask if any trouble came onto them for helping the party translate Nazznar's journal.

The conflict in Neverwinter was from lore I gathered from the Neverwinter MMO online wikis and from what I found in another group's campaign notes they posted online. Basically Lord Nevermember is considered a fraud by many of the citizens, and is there on the agenda of the Lords of Waterdeep. The rebels are split into the more violent Nashers, and the Graycloaks who prefer subterfuge and sabotaging efforts of New Neverwinter.

The Bluelake district, which the locals call Blacklake, is a major hub for the rebels, and the bridges leading to the area, as well as the docks, are heavily guarded and you can only move between the districts with permission. The citizens of Blacklake feel abandoned, and are resentful. They've built their own economy and society away from that ruled by Nevermember, and considers the "King Pretender" to be taking changing the city for his own ends instead of rebuilding it.

[Armored Walrus]

I think the major thing that makes it seem like a "hole" is how big of a scope this seems to be when I haven't had the time. They've already arrived in Neverwinter, though I was thinking about Gundren sending a note about an issue later on in levels.
They did not discover Kost, so he could certainly be used. The orcs were from the Many Arrows tribe, which is the same group who's taken over the Neverwinter Temple District. So many I can use that.

And thanks. I think I'm just feeling really pressured since this is my first time, and I don't want it to get out of hand where I had all this lead up just to later disappoint my players.

I feel you. I'm in the same situation in my campaign. Just kind of tap dancing while I try to figure out how all the pieces fit together. My advice is if you're feeling overwhelmed, don't dangle any new threads yet. Either grab a completely unrelated side quest (which you might figure out later you can actually tie in to your overall plot anyway) or focus on one single thread in this tapestry and figure out how the PCs can get involved in what's going on. You have a lot of moving parts up in the air, but each session doesn't have to advance all of them. Just deal with whatever the PCs are currently interested in, and then after the session figure out how their actions impact all the other threads and go from there, one session at a time.

[shadowkat678]

I feel you. I'm in the same situation in my campaign. Just kind of tap dancing while I try to figure out how all the pieces fit together. My advice is if you're feeling overwhelmed, don't dangle any new threads yet. Either grab a completely unrelated side quest (which you might figure out later you can actually tie in to your overall plot anyway) or focus on one single thread in this tapestry and figure out how the PCs can get involved in what's going on. You have a lot of moving parts up in the air, but each session doesn't have to advance all of them. Just deal with whatever the PCs are currently interested in, and then after the session figure out how their actions impact all the other threads and go from there, one session at a time.

Good advice. I don't suppose you have any ideas?

Also, I just came up with something, like many Nazznar is getting involved with the rebels, offering help to get a foothold in the city that Lord Nevermember would threaten. Except it's not with the Nashers like many would guess, being the more violent, but a higher ranked member of the Greycloaks?

I think the main issue I'm having is that the plot threads themselves aren't that many, but when you break them down into parts there's a lot going on.

[GlenSmash!]

i think it's a good idea to expand on the Black Spider. When i was a player in that module the him was awesome, teaming up with him after defeating him was fun and tense too, but ultimately I never knew why he was there or what he wanted. It was a bit dissatisfying.

[Armored Walrus]

Good advice. I don't suppose you have any ideas?

Well, you've got the note from Gundren in your back pocket for the next time you get crunched for content so I'll leave that one for you.

If you want something you can just drop in, and maybe refluff to fit the circumstances of your campaign, look up Barber of Silverymoon (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/dragon/DRA12_barbersilverymoon_jbt.pdf). It's a bit silly, so you may want to give it a major overhaul in terms of tone, but there's enough content there to keep your players occupied for maybe a couple sessions (depending how long your sessions are) and I think there's ample opportunity to make some of the players in that module overlap with some of what's going on in your campaign. (instead of darklings the barber borrowed money from the grey cloaks, or whatever)

You could drop the Fiery Grog Tavern (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/183857/Fiery-Grog-Tavern) into Neverwinter, and give them a home base to get to know, possibly leading from there to Madness of the Rat King (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/183874/Madness-of-the-Rat-King). Although that module might be a little anticlimactic to them at this point; 5th level characters don't want to go back to fighting rats. But again, that's a module that I think you could easily retool and stock with members of one of your factions.

Basically right now I think you're looking for content that introduces your factions and gets them invested in the outcome, right? Or looking for ways for the drow to get at the PCs in some way? So you need a session or two where they simply get to know their surroundings, without anything of major consequence pulling them one way or another, so they can learn about what's going on and then make decisions about what to do next. So give them a neighborhood-sized problem to fix, so they can learn about and hopefully start to care about NPCs in their neighborhood, and then once you've established that, then you can make one or the other faction, or the drow, threaten some of those NPCs in some way, and that drags them into the larger plot. I was reading teh campaign journal for Ptolus: The shadow of the spire (http://thealexandrian.net/in-the-shadow-of-the-spire), and I can see how he was starting to set up all the intrigue there, but unfortunately he stopped updating the journal right as it was starting to get interesting, but that may give you some inspiration as well.

[shadowkat678]

i think it's a good idea to expand on the Black Spider. When i was a player in that module the him was awesome, teaming up with him after defeating him was fun and tense too, but ultimately I never knew why he was there or what he wanted. It was a bit dissatisfying.

Yeah, originally you just fought him and were done with it.


Well, you've got the note from Gundren in your back pocket for the next time you get crunched for content so I'll leave that one for you.

If you want something you can just drop in, and maybe refluff to fit the circumstances of your campaign, look up Barber of Silverymoon (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/dragon/DRA12_barbersilverymoon_jbt.pdf). It's a bit silly, so you may want to give it a major overhaul in terms of tone, but there's enough content there to keep your players occupied for maybe a couple sessions (depending how long your sessions are) and I think there's ample opportunity to make some of the players in that module overlap with some of what's going on in your campaign. (instead of darklings the barber borrowed money from the grey cloaks, or whatever)

You could drop the Fiery Grog Tavern (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/183857/Fiery-Grog-Tavern) into Neverwinter, and give them a home base to get to know, possibly leading from there to Madness of the Rat King (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/183874/Madness-of-the-Rat-King). Although that module might be a little anticlimactic to them at this point; 5th level characters don't want to go back to fighting rats. But again, that's a module that I think you could easily retool and stock with members of one of your factions.

Basically right now I think you're looking for content that introduces your factions and gets them invested in the outcome, right? Or looking for ways for the drow to get at the PCs in some way? So you need a session or two where they simply get to know their surroundings, without anything of major consequence pulling them one way or another, so they can learn about what's going on and then make decisions about what to do next. So give them a neighborhood-sized problem to fix, so they can learn about and hopefully start to care about NPCs in their neighborhood, and then once you've established that, then you can make one or the other faction, or the drow, threaten some of those NPCs in some way, and that drags them into the larger plot. I was reading teh campaign journal for Ptolus: The shadow of the spire (http://thealexandrian.net/in-the-shadow-of-the-spire), and I can see how he was starting to set up all the intrigue there, but unfortunately he stopped updating the journal right as it was starting to get interesting, but that may give you some inspiration as well.

For the rat thing there's a guild in Neverwinter consisting of a lot of wererats.

There's also Neverwinter Graveyard. It also has lore that there's been reports of dead "rising on their own. And a lot of victims of the spell plague were mass buried in a section. Maybe a group of necromancers. There's also the tomb of betrayers, which has the names of NPCs who died seen as traitors to Neverwinter. Lore could tie in.

There's the Church of Eilistraee again, and tensions there.

I tweaked a NPC in White Dragon Market that was a fortune teller to actually be a hag in disguise. Maybe those could be hooks? Especially with the hag, since they tend to know a lot of stuff, and deals with them can really come back to get you later.

Hm. What do you guys think of having old Spider have his spies keep watch on them somehow? Don't know what he would do yet, but I consider his personality to make him pretty interested in this group that managed to kill his brother. Interested in a way where he would prefer to use them than outright kill.

I also downloaded a lot of old D&D adventure pdfs. Maybe I can find more that take place in cities and convert it to 5e...although I'm not fully sure how to go about conversion. I'll definitely be looking into the links you gave me.

[Armored Walrus]

Hm. What do you guys think of having old Spider have his spies keep watch on them somehow? Don't know what he would do yet, but I consider his personality to make him pretty interested in this group that managed to kill his brother. Interested in a way where he would prefer to use them than outright kill.

Of course his spies are watching. They were watching before LMOP started. Edit: I would give them opportunities to discover the spies; and opportunities to falsely accuse some folks who actually aren't spies.

Using them requires him to have some leverage on them. So they need to have had some experiences, made some friends, own some property. He needs some kind of handle in order to use them, whether that be a hostage, blackmail (they have to have secrets, and he has to know them), bribery (if your PCs aren't all that moral), extortion (nice inn you guys own here, be a shame if it burned down). But none of those work until the characters establish themselves in the world, so if they don't have anything in their backgrounds that they care about, and haven't come to care about anything in the course of LMOP, then your next sessions need to establish that. Now, if they were nice enough to give you a handle you can use on them, that's a different story. Then you can focus on how does he want to use them?

He could send them on a mission to take out his sister, he could set them to spying in turn on some other enemy of his, he could blackmail them into infiltrating and then sabotaging one of the factions with which he doesn't see eye to eye.

[shadowkat678]

Of course his spies are watching. They were watching before LMOP started. Edit: I would give them opportunities to discover the spies; and opportunities to falsely accuse some folks who actually aren't spies.

Using them requires him to have some leverage on them. So they need to have had some experiences, made some friends, own some property. He needs some kind of handle in order to use them, whether that be a hostage, blackmail (they have to have secrets, and he has to know them), bribery (if your PCs aren't all that moral), extortion (nice inn you guys own here, be a shame if it burned down). But none of those work until the characters establish themselves in the world, so if they don't have anything in their backgrounds that they care about, and haven't come to care about anything in the course of LMOP, then your next sessions need to establish that. Now, if they were nice enough to give you a handle you can use on them, that's a different story. Then you can focus on how does he want to use them?

He could send them on a mission to take out his sister, he could set them to spying in turn on some other enemy of his, he could blackmail them into infiltrating and then sabotaging one of the factions with which he doesn't see eye to eye.

Well, he was only watching them because he was watching Gundren. I believe that he actually became interested before they foiled his plans. There was a wanted poster for the entire party. I had planned a hook for one character, who had a father that didn't know he was alive after trying to get rid of the PC as a baby. But he got captured once already when the party went to save Gundren, and didn't think far enough ahead that

"hey, maybe that owlbear we let loose DIDN'T kill off all those would be ambushers. We didn't even check, after all, just heard screams. We didn't even set a full watch, instead cutting off the lookout after a few hours! I mean, we could have checked that there wasn't a BACK ENTRANCE!"

I swear they pretty much asked to be ambushed. :/

I left a note stating that he was wanted by "a curious friend, intact", but guess who's character decided to stay in Phandalin? Yep. Although his adopted sister is his new PC, so many there's still a chance. I'd just feel like **** to have yet another one of his characters kidnapped...

There is the new Goblin PC that grew up in Blacklake. He was raised by a elf after his tribe abandoned him or something. Hiding from a group after he blew up a warehouse they had a base in, after being bribed by "shinies" to make drugs...

Maybe could be used. All the other PCs have been to Neverwinter before. One is a agent of Silverymoon. Another is an assassin. Another is part of the Lord's Alliance. Last one apparently doesn't get along with the governing bodies of the city.

Yeah. Those could be worked with.

[Decstarr]

If you are into premades, you could use this entire setting as an entry to Out of the Abyss (our DM did the same thing). At the end of LmoP, the group was captured by Nezznar and awoke in the Underdark prison.

As to your situation: I think it is a great idea to use the sister to create conflict. The drow are an incredibly matriarchal society after all, so it would make sense that a female tires of being an underling after a while. You could turn her into the main villain eventually. Have her save the group at one point, have them fight nezznar together, only to have her betray them afterwards (and maybe continue to OotA).

[shadowkat678]

If you are into premades, you could use this entire setting as an entry to Out of the Abyss (our DM did the same thing). At the end of LmoP, the group was captured by Nezznar and awoke in the Underdark prison.

As to your situation: I think it is a great idea to use the sister to create conflict. The drow are an incredibly matriarchal society after all, so it would make sense that a female tires of being an underling after a while. You could turn her into the main villain eventually. Have her save the group at one point, have them fight nezznar together, only to have her betray them afterwards (and maybe continue to OotA).

Probably wouldn't have them do the premade. Since I already have these other things set up and I don't think that'd transition well since they've already started. I do have the PDF though, so I will probably flip through it. If they do have to go to the underdark eventually, there could be something I can lift. Or I could use the beginning and do a kinda shortened version of the module. If Curse of Strahd expanded on the original Ravenloft adventure, maybe a adventure can similarly be shortened?

And that's an idea. One of the reasons she wasn't able to fight back on her own in the first place was she lost her priestess powers. So she'll definitely be looking for someone to help.