The LA-Assignment Thread Gestalt: Negative Retake

[Daedroth]

I'm going to retake the Negative LA Assignement, i hope that this time i can count on enough feedback to make for my lack of a good innate balanced LA sense:

Negative LA works like a partial Gestalt, allowing to Gestalt your RHD with class level (Starting with the first one)

For the sake of coherence in this thread i'm gonna assume:
- Medium optimization, always avoiding TO and crap/trap choices.
- Comparing to the obvious choice if there's one.
- That would include comparing spellcaster monsters to their closest caster class, fixing the caster supremacy is beyond the scope of this thread.
- If no obvious choice, comparing to Warblade/Barbarian for simple beatsticks (like the Ettin) Swordsage/Duskblade/Warlock for more sophisticated monsters.
- No epic levels




Monster
LA


Large Animated Object (Iron Wagon), Awakened (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22306338&postcount=3)
-1


Huge Animated Object (Iron Wagon), Awakened (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22306338&postcount=5)
-3


Gargantuan Animated Object (Iron Wagon), Awakened (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22306338&postcount=6)
-9


Arrowhawk, Adult (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22306338&postcount=10)
-1


Arrowhawk, Elder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22306338&postcount=11)
-7


Attach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22306338&postcount=12)
-7


Greater Abyssal Basilisk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22306338&postcount=13)
-8


Belker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22306338&postcount=14)
-1


Bugbear (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21399451&postcount=2)
-1


Chaos Beast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22306338&postcount=15)
-3


Chuul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22306338&postcount=19)
-2


Delver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22306338&postcount=18)
-7


Derro (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22306338&postcount=1)
Not Yet


Destrachan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22306338&postcount=1)
Not Yet







If you want to discuss the thread's methodology now is your turn.


Original LA-Assignment thread by Inevitability: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485938-The-LA-assignment-thread

[Nifft]

This seems like a really clever way to compensate for bad RHD without removing them completely.

I'm looking forward to more concrete examples.

[Daedroth]

Lets start with Large Animated Object, with a starting negative LA of -1
Awakened Large Animated Object 4 //Warblade 1 vs a Water Orc Warblade 4
Elite Array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
Item: Iron Wagon

Animated Object Stats:
Str 21 Dex 14 Con- (But +30HP) Int 12 Wis 13 Cha 10
HP: 64 (Hardness 10)
Speed: 40'
Armor: Masterwork Breastplate--->CA 21
Saves: F+3 R+4 W+2
Construct inmunities
BAB: +3
Attack (Slam + Savage Species amulet for +1): At +7 Dmg 1d8+8 (Av 12)
Reach
IL: 2
Stances: Lvl 1 stances
Interesting Maneuvers: Steely Strike, Charging Minotaur, Leading the attack

Water Orc
Str 20 Dex 13 Con 16 Int 11 Wis 10 Cha 6
HP: 43
Speed: 20'
Armor: +1 Breastplate-------> CA17
Saves: F+7 R+2 W+1
Uncanny dodge
BAB:+4
Attack (Greatsword +1): At +9 Dmg 2d6+8 (Av 15)
IL:4
Stances: LVl 1 Stances
Interesting Maneuvers: Steely strike,Charging Minotaur, Leading the attack, Emerald Razor, Disarming Strike, Wall of Blades, Mountain Hammer, Rabid Wolf strike, Tactical Strike, Battle Leader's Charge


Ok, from base the Animated Object has overall much better defenses defenses and lower offensive potential, plus reach and construct inmunities. But i think that maneuvers gives the water orc the edge:
Wall of Blades makes up partially for the low CA
Emerald razor can target touch CA, making his attack almost auto-hit against a lot of enemies.
Lvl2 are much more damaging than lvl 1, increasing the difference in damage potential, also they have interesting side-effects like disarming, avoiding Ado or piercing RD.


Your thoughts? I think the answer lies between -1 and -2.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I hope you continue this. I realize that doing things your way is a lot more work and requires more in-depth knowledge of optimization than mine (which is why I'm not doing it), and I'm interested to see what results it yields.

Also, quick editorial note: Constructs and undead have Con —, not Con 0. One is dead, the other is nonliving.

[Daedroth]

I hope you continue this. I realize that doing things your way is a lot more work and requires more in-depth knowledge of optimization than mine (which is why I'm not doing it), and I'm interested to see what results it yields.


I'll try to see it to the end, with or without feedback


Also, quick editorial note: Constructs and undead have Con —, not Con 0. One is dead, the other is nonliving.


Yeah, i know, fixed.

For the moment i'm going to play safe at -1 (People can still argue for -2 if they want), now i tackle his bigger brother: Huge Animated Object

With a starting negative LA of -2
Awakened Huge Animated Object 8 //Warblade 2 vs a Water Orc Warblade 8
Elite Array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
Item: Iron Wagon

Animated Object Stats:
Str 25 Dex 12 Con- (But +40HP) Int 12 Wis 13 Cha 10
HP: 97 (Hardness 10)
Speed: 40'
Armor: +1 Breastplate--->CA 21
Saves: F+5 R+3 W+3
Construct inmunities
BAB: +6
Attack (Slam + Savage Species amulet for +2): At +13 Dmg 2d6+12 (Av 19)
Reach 10'/15'
IL: 5
Stances: Lvl 1 stances
Interesting Maneuvers: Steely Strike, Charging Minotaur, Leading the attack (But at 9th lvl will get lvl 3 maneuvers)

Water Orc
Str 20 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 11 Wis 10 Cha 6
HP: 81
Speed: 20'
Armor: +2 Breastplate, plus Ring of Protection-------> CA 21
Saves: F+9 R+4 W+2
BAB:+8
Attack (Greatsword +2): At +13/+8 Dmg 2d6+8 (Av 15)
IL:8
Stances: LVl 1 Stances
Interesting Maneuvers: (I'll write the higher level ones) Insightful Strike, Iron Hearth Surge, Bonecrusher, Soaring Raptor Strike, Tactics of the Wolf, Death from above, Bounding Assault, Ruby Nightmare Blade, Bonesplitting Attack, Mithral Tornado, white Raven Strike
Bonus Feat


So thats mostly Reach, slightly better defense & inmunities vs Maneuvers. As Huge AO will get 3rd ones soon, so its fair to compare 3rd to 4th level maneuvers as the base warblade will be from levels 9 to 17 1.5 Maneuver levels ahead.

Other considerations
Soaring Raptor Strikewill is a very powerfull 3rd level maneuver but a Huge creature won't be using it a lot, so it doesn't count for our poor dear wagon.
IH Surge and TotW asre very powerful ones. Both have access to them, but inmunities get less impresive when you have access to this one.
Bonecrusher is more useful to the base warblade, as he has better critical

I think at least a -2 LA is fair here, but i'm leaning to -3, being the AO 1 maneuver level behind.

[Daedroth]

I'll be briefer that time, with the Gargantuan one with...lets start with -8

Str 29 Dex 10 Con- (But +60HP) Int 12 Wis 13 Cha 10

vs

Str 22 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 11 Wis 10 Cha 6

The CA lowers, +2 Nat armor -2 for size, -2 for dex, even more, armor gets even more expensive.

The BAB is not that bad at -2, so the attack bonus is not that hurt. On the other hand, no manufactured weapons hurt (You should have 4 attacks), 2d8 is nice and the reach is quite good. Also, you got slower.

Now, maneuvers...lets add 1 warblade level to both so the AO can get high level maneuvers:

Animated Object: IL 13 (9+4) -> lvl 7
Pure Warblade: IL 17-> lvl 9

So we have AO:
- Clarion Call
- Swarming Assault
- Avalanche of Blades (much needed)
- Finishing Move
- Ancient Mountain Hammer
- Swooping Dragon Strike

Pure Warblade:
- Everything AO has plus
- Time Stands Still (Double full attack, OMFG)
- Strike of Perfect Clarity (+100 Damage, nice)
- Mountain Tomvbstone Strike: (2d6 Con Damage, yes please)
- Fearl Death Blow (SoD, nice, +20d6 if the succeed)
- War Master Charge (EVeryone charges, no Ado, extra damage, stun, what else?)

- Diamong Nightmare Blade
- Adamantine Hurricaine
- Adamantine Bones (Stronguer than AO's Hardness)
- Raging Mongoose
- White Raven Hammer (Easy stun!)

I think that the difference in maneuvers is huge, even with -8 i'm still not sure, i'm even considering -9.

[Daedroth]

Lets take a look at the adult arrowhawk:

Pros:
- At will touch attack
- Fly speed 60', perfect
- +4 Str, +10 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Cha
- +6 NA
- Inmunity to acid, electricy, poison, resistance to fire and cold

Con:
- Touch attack can be easily negated by ER or inmunity.
- Lack of manufactured weapons, but has access to mouthpick weapons (Sadly restricted to melee weapons)
- No obvious advancement and too many HD to just rely on good ability scores.

Advancement options
- Scout (3 lvls) + Rogue + Swift Ambusher feat: Nice precision damage while flying if you manage to get SA somehow.
- Screw it, go melee
- Order of the bow initiate: Sudenly, only one shot is not that bad. Cons: You have to waste 2 feats. It can work.

I'm without ideas, how would you make an arrowhawk work to his full potential?

[Nifft]

Arrowhawk - add Scout features. Skirmish damage applies to their electric ray attack.

[Daedroth]

Arrowhawk - add Scout features. Skirmish damage applies to their electric ray attack.
Its more or less my first option, if no one comes with a better idea, i'll try that one and the beatstick ruote (Swordsage?).

[Daedroth]

Lets start with Scout (LA-2) vs Swift Hunter (Scout 3, Ranger 4)

Relevant Pros:
- Flight helps you staying away from fights.
- Touch Attack
- Better BAB
- +10 Dex vs +2 Dex at most
- Better Defenses: +6 NA, +2 Con
- Nice inmunities
- Better Saves

Relevant Cons:
- Skirmish 1d6 vs 2d6 +2 CA
- Lack of ranger features like Rapid Shot, Favored Enemy (+4/+2) and Spellcasting
- Swift hunter can make 3 shots with a some tricks (Travel Devotion, Mount..)
- His base shot is stronger, but cannot add anything Str Mod no Enchantment modifier to it
- Unable to use magic ammo and neat tricks with it

And... Unarmed Swordsage comparison:

Relevant Pros:
- Flight helps you chasing enemies
- Nice speed
- A Ranged Touch Attack, less useful, but still there.
- Better BAB
- +10 Dex vs +2 Dex at most
- Better Defenses: +6 NA, +2 Con, +2 Wis
- Nice inmunities
- Better Saves
- More SKill Points
- Bite is now an extra attack

Relevant Cons:
- IL 4 vs IL 7 (1,5 maneuver levels behind)
- No Sense Magic nor insightful strikes, for now
- Slightly worse unarmed strike die size


Ok, i think that arrowhawk definetively sucks as a ranged PC, but can really keep up as as an unarmed combatant, so LA-2 its enough, maybe even -1

Your thoughts?

[Daedroth]

Elder Arrowhawk

Lets start with LA-5 and a single level of Swordsage. Also, i'm gona point some useful analysis


While the younger arrowhawks could be credible candidates for rogue-types with their good chassis and solid dex scores, the elder seems pretty well doomed to the life of a beatstick. While it retains the high dex, its massive number of RHD preclude stacking sneak attack to a reasonable amount of damage, and large size isn't exactly conducive to sneaking. Many of its other abilities aren't particularly amazing, either: the ray does laughable damage, the bite needs to be taken up by a mouthpick weapon for the arrowhawk to have any hope of being useful, and while innate flight is nice, 60' is a thoroughly unimpressive speed at these levels. Oh, and the large size comes without reach. On the other hand, it gets impressive ability scores, a moderate natural armor bonus, and some reasonably decent immunities. It's not nearly enough to make up for 15 RHD, but it's a start.

All in all, what would it take to tempt me to play an elder arrowhawk? Well, my first thought was that this thing could make a decent swordsage, since it makes good use of the ability scores, and the 15 outsider hit dice will put that last iterative in easy reach. So then the question becomes: how many initiator levels would I be willing to lose in exchange for the ability score bonuses, immunities, and improved BAB? I'm not going to consider the arrowhawk's other abilities, because the ray is laughable, large size without reach is more of a drawback than a bonus, and flight just saves you some cash that you'll then have to spend on mouthpick weapons and nonhumanoid armor. LA -5 might be playable, but at that point you're crippling your swordsage progression pretty badly - you lose five initiator levels, you'll have roughly half the maneuvers known/readied of a normal swordsage, and your other class features are ten levels behind (for example, you get evasion at ECL 19, and never get improved evasion at all). So while -5 could be acceptable as a conservative estimate, I suspect that -6 or even -7 could very well be in order.



And... Unarmed Swordsage comparison, again:

Relevant Pros:
- Flight helps you chasing enemies
- Nice speed, but nothing impresive at that level
- Much better Better BAB
- +10 Dex, +12 Str
- Better Defenses: +8 NA, +6 Con, +2 Wis
- Nice inmunities
- Better Saves
- More SKill Points
- Bite is now an extra attack

Relevant Cons:
- IL 10 vs IL 16 (3 maneuver levels behind)
- Lost features: +2 Initiative (Dex compensates this and more), Evasion, Magic Sense, Defensive Stance (High abilities and better saves compensates this one).
- Slightly worse unarmed strike die size (Str compensates this and more)
- Large size is more of a drawback here


Stats are great, but i think that the IL is a hit big enough to make LA-7 a fairer choice, what do you think?

[Daedroth]

Athach


Ok, lets strike the giant... 14RHD gives us:

Pros:
-Huge Size with 15' Reach, good
-Base Speed 50'
- +8 NA
- +16 Str, +2 Dex, +10 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha
- Three arms: You can triple weild as normal or... dual weild with a greatsword and a light weapon with only a -2 Penalty. Not bad.
- Bite attack with poison, i'm not gonna say no to an extra attack with something extra.

Cons:
- You lose 7 IL
- Aberration HD are horrible: Regular BAB, d8, only good will save.
- You are ugly and the definition of uncool




Negative LA
4
6
8


Lost IL
5
4
3


Maneuvers level lost
-2,5
-2
-1,5



I see something between -6 and -8, -7 perhaps?

[Daedroth]

Greater Abyssal Basilisk


As with most of these creatures, the basilisk has more HP and a lower AC than any comparable barbarian (though the gaps decrease when the barbarian rages). By 16th level, the barbarian’s primary attack is comparable to an abyssal basilisk’s only attack, though likely dealing less damage. Its hit points are also starting to be comparable, though the AC is still several points ahead. Much more than a -2 would probably make the basilisk a better beatstick than the barbarian...and we haven’t gotten to the petrifying gaze.
Granted, its DC is only 21. An aboleth mage (CR 17) would make their save 75% of the time, with tougher enemies like old black dragons (CR 16) making the save 90-95% of the time. But there’s always the possibility of rolling a 1, and even a mere 5-25% chance of an enemy turning to stone, each round, for every enemy within 30 feet, on top of other actions, is hardly nothing. Even with the disadvantages that a horrible creature from the lower planes with no opposable thumbs would face, I’m not sure I can give the greater abyssal basilisk a level adjustment below -1.


Wow. Abyssal greater basilisk -- now that is a horrible build. Large size without reach, no DR or SR worth squat, uninspiring stat bonuses, a junk skill list with -7 Intelligence, 20' speed, a single natural attack (and no limbs for wielding typical weapons) ...

An 11th-level barbarian or rogue could put this to shame when optimized to an equal degree, which would indicate at least LA -7. But I wouldn't consider it playable in an 18th-level group with just seven gestalt levels, not even gestalted with a tier 1 class. I don't want to be extreme but I'd call this -9 LA.

EDIT: Whoops, hold it, missed the upgraded save DC for the gaze attack. Okay, maybe -7 LA. Still nothing I'd want to try to play, myself.


Ok, we have:
Magical Beast HD (Not bad nor good chasis), i think that the better choice is Crusader and i'll start with -7

Pros
- +10 Con, +14 Str, +4 Cha
- 9 NA
- Better Saves
- Stone Gaze CD 19+Cha Mod
- Resistance to fire and cold
- SR 23 (Arguably HD+5, maxium 25, since its implied that it has the fiendish template)

Cons
- No hands, luckily, has a bite attack
- Slowpoke speed
- Large and no reach
- 18 HD! (IL 12 vs IL 18, 3 m. levels lost)
- Lost Class Features: 10 points less of Steely Resolve, No diehard, no mettle, 1 smite less
- Friendly Fire!!
- Horrible inteligence, -2 Dex


I'd settle it to LA-8, for a net 2,5 maneuvers levels lost.

[Daedroth]

Belker

Belker and Adult Arrowhark are both 7 RHD, so i can compare both for a easier veredict:

Arrowhawk:
- Much better HD: Good bab, all good saves, good skill points
- Slightly better flier
- Same physical stats but higher mental ones: +0/+2/+2 vs -4/+0/+0
- Ranged attack
- immunity to acid, electricity, and poison, resistance to cold 10 and fire 10

Belker
- Better NA (+8 vs +6)
- Elemental inmunities: Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning. Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
- Five natural attacks!
- Gaseous form 20R/Day with Smoke Claws (Yuck)
- Reach!

I think they are both pretty similar, so the could use the same LA with Belker being better at beating things and Arrowhak at skills

[Daedroth]

Chaos Beast


These things are the stuff of nightmares. Appearance-wise, that is. Mechanics-wise, they aren't that great.

I used to think chaos beasts were worthless. After carefully reading their statblock, I've changed my opinion: they're only mostly worthless, with the lack of worthlessness coming from an ability that is unlikely to actually change fights.

Allow me to explain. Corporeal Instability is a decent save-or-suck (no spellcasting, severely lowered speed, hampered attacks). If it were just that, it'd be outclassed by many other abilities, but the thing is that CI is incredibly hard to escape from. It doesn't naturally wear off, a charisma check only suppresses it for a single minute, and the handful of spells that do remove it are high-level or require expensive material components. Also, if the continuous wisdom drain knocks someone out, they turn into a chaos beast themselves.

Of course, because a chaos beast still has only two weak claws for natural attacks, can't use equipment, and can't really contribute to a fight against nonliving or transformation-immune creatures, it's still a bad choice. A poor save-or-die that only kicks in a couple of minutes after the battle should have ended and spawns a hostile monster when it finally kills the target isn't a reason to forgo eight levels. -0 LA works.



And how can the chaos beast advance? Well, it has above-average physical ability scores and perfectly average mental ones. It might make an okay brawler (or at least meatshield) if it could wield weapons, but since those who fall victim to the earlier stages of chaos-beast-ification can’t hold anything, that’s one heck of an argument to make. Anything equipment-focused is going to be impossible, and nothing the chaos beast offers is worth losing even a couple spellcasting levels. I guess you could make a terrifying monk, with each unarmed strike carrying a horrible curse, if you weren’t a literal embodiment of chaos.
Poor chaos beast. I’m inclined to go somewhere between -5 and -6, for sheer tankiness and the insane debuff, but there needs to be nine hells of an asterisk on there. I mean, there’s a chance that any mook you fight is going to turn into a CR 7 monster; chaos beasts are probably not going to be popular party members in any party which can’t handle those with ease.

Isn't this kinda weird? I mean, I guess I get the idea—the embodiment of chaos doesn't have a set form—but this goes a step beyond that into nightmarish madness.


So...unarmed swordsage it is, with 8 RHD:

Relevant Pros:
- Better BAB
- 5 NA
- +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, not impresed but still positive
- SR 15, inmunity to critical hits, petrification and polymorph
- Better Saves
- More SKill Points
- A nasty spameable save or suck several times each round (As many as attacks you have)
- Two claws is now an extra attack

Relevant Cons:
- With 1 swordsage level: IL 5 vs IL 10 (2,5 maneuver levels behind)
- 9 levels of Lost features
- Worse unarmed strike die size
- Turtle Slow
- The nasty SoS has some cons: Increasing the DC is hard, and formed Chaos Beast aren0t under your control, so it can backfire quite bad.

At LA-6 it would be mostly 1 IL behind, at LA-4/-5 2 (1 maneuvel level), i think LA -3 is fair.

[Blue Jay]

Okay, this thread deserves some feedback, so I'll take a shot at your first one:


Lets start with Large Animated Object, with a starting negative LA of -1
Awakened Large Animated Object 4 //Warblade 1 vs a Water Orc Warblade 4
Elite Array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
Item: Iron Wagon

Animated Object Stats:
Str 21 Dex 14 Con- (But +30HP) Int 12 Wis 13 Cha 10
HP: 64 (Hardness 10)
Speed: 40'
Armor: Masterwork Breastplate--->CA 21
Saves: F+3 R+4 W+2
Construct inmunities
BAB: +3
Attack (Slam + Savage Species amulet for +1): At +7 Dmg 1d8+8 (Av 12)
Reach
IL: 2
Stances: Lvl 1 stances
Interesting Maneuvers: Steely Strike, Charging Minotaur, Leading the attack

Water Orc
Str 20 Dex 13 Con 16 Int 11 Wis 10 Cha 6
HP: 43
Speed: 20'
Armor: +1 Breastplate-------> CA17
Saves: F+7 R+2 W+1
Uncanny dodge
BAB:+4
Attack (Greatsword +1): At +9 Dmg 2d6+8 (Av 15)
IL:4
Stances: LVl 1 Stances
Interesting Maneuvers: Steely strike,Charging Minotaur, Leading the attack, Emerald Razor, Disarming Strike, Wall of Blades, Mountain Hammer, Rabid Wolf strike, Tactical Strike, Battle Leader's Charge

Ok, from base the Animated Object has overall much better defenses defenses and lower offensive potential, plus reach and construct inmunities. But i think that maneuvers gives the water orc the edge:
Wall of Blades makes up partially for the low CA
Emerald razor can target touch CA, making his attack almost auto-hit against a lot of enemies.
Lvl2 are much more damaging than lvl 1, increasing the difference in damage potential, also they have interesting side-effects like disarming, avoiding Ado or piercing RD.

Your thoughts? I think the answer lies between -1 and -2.

I think I like 1 gestalt level for this monster. I liked GWG's analysis on the other thread: animated objects are customizable, so I think you could close the gap a little with some of the special attack options (blind, constrict, trample), and movement mode options. I think one gestalt level is necessary to let the monster have a decent chance at some skill points and save bonuses; but I don't think 2 levels would be strictly necessary. Side note: did you say you allow the gestalt starting at the character's first level? So, the monster's progression would go Object 1 || Warblade 1, then Object 2 || Warblade 1 / -- 1, etc?

Also, not to get too bogged down in the details of animated objects, but are you assuming the player was allowed to use awaken construct or something like that? RAW, that spell specifically doesn't work on animated objects or constructs with a non-humanoid shape, so players will often be subject to some other restrictions, and possibly be required to eat a -10 penalty to Wis and to Cha.

[Daedroth]

First of all, thank you for the feedback




I liked GWG's analysis on the other thread: animated objects are customizable, so I think you could close the gap a little with some of the special attack options (blind, constrict, trample), and movement mode options.
Well, the posibilities are too vast (like the centaur adamantine statue) so in the original thread Inevitability took two particular builds, so i tackled one of them and left to the DM extrapolate to other forms. I simply cannot valorate all the posibilities.



I think one gestalt level is necessary to let the monster have a decent chance at some skill points and save bonuses; but I don't think 2 levels would be strictly necessary. Side note: did you say you allow the gestalt starting at the character's first level? So, the monster's progression would go Object 1 || Warblade 1, then Object 2 || Warblade 1 / -- 1, etc?

Yes, but i take into account that the monster only need one level in an initiator class to get the maneuvers from the highest level when i assignate the LA.


Also, not to get too bogged down in the details of animated objects, but are you assuming the player was allowed to use awaken construct or something like that? RAW, that spell specifically doesn't work on animated objects or constructs with a non-humanoid shape, so players will often be subject to some other restrictions, and possibly be required to eat a -10 penalty to Wis and to Cha.


Well, the RAW doesn't rule off animated objects, only temporary ones (And if its a PC, i'm sure its a permanente one), humanoid shape... is something i didn't read. Thats a problem as also i need them to be non-mindless.

[Daedroth]

Delver

I'll compare it to an unarmed swordsage
Relevant Pros:
- +15 NA, not bad
- +16 Str, +2 Dex, +10 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +2 Cha... not bad at all
- Slow burrow speed
- Huge Size can be useful
- Inmunity to Acid
- Tremorsense
- Corrosive Slime is a source of extra damage

Relevant Cons:
- With 1 Swordsage level: IL 8 vs IL 16 (4 maneuver levels behind)
- 15 levels of Lost features (Hurts)
- Loot destroyer
- Non-humanoid
- The nasty SoS has some cons: Increasing the DC is hard, and formed Chaos Beast aren0t under your control, so it can backfire quite bad.


A -7 leaves it at IL 11 (2 manuever levels behind) so i think its fair.

[Daedroth]

Chuul


I'll compare it to an unarmed swordsage, again

Relevant Pros:
- +10 NA, not bad
- +10 Str, +6 Dex, +8 Con, +4 Int, +2 Wis, -6 Cha... still not bad
- Swimn speed, Amphibious
- Immunity to Posion
-Two extra attacks (Claws)
- Improved Grab and Paralitic Tentacles

Relevant Cons:
- With 1 Swordsage level: IL 6 vs IL 12 (3 maneuver levels behind)
- 11 levels of Lost features
- Loot destroyer
- Non-humanoid, Large but no reach
- Tentacles requiere a move action, makeing you giving up full attacks

Its quite a good race for its large RHD, I think LA-2