Bard: College of Swords Blade flourish - not an attack action, weapon attack

[8wGremlin]

I was reading http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-RevisedSubclasses.pdf

and noticed that Blade flourish is an action, where you can make one melee weapon attack, and not an Attack action.
Also at 6th level you get to make two melee weapon attacks.

Is there anything we can do with this, any way of enhancing it?
Is there any spells that this affects cus it's not an attack action?

[FinnS]

I was reading http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-RevisedSubclasses.pdf

and noticed that Blade flourish is an action, where you can make one melee weapon attack, and not an Attack action.
Also at 6th level you get to make two melee weapon attacks.

Is there anything we can do with this, any way of enhancing it?
Is there any spells that this affects cus it's not an attack action?

Not sure what you're asking?
It's still attacking and anything that requires an attack roll will still affect it.

[Easy_Lee]

It's odd that this archetype gets TWF considering that it doesn't work with their flourish feature at all.

What you can do is multiclass paladin and then smite on the attacks. You could also pick up the spell Ensnaring Strike and use it as a bonus action to apply to the next attack that hits. There's also no reason you couldn't multiclass rogue and sneak attack on a flourish. Or you can multiclass sorcerer so you can bonus action cast shocking grasp or whatever in addition to doing your flourish.

[FinnS]

It's odd that this archetype gets TWF considering that it doesn't work with their flourish feature at all.


What makes you believe you couldn't use your bonus to make an off-hand attack while flourishing?
I see no wording that would suggest you couldn't and as you pointed out, why would that fighting style be an option in the first place.
Besides, even if it did say you couldn't do it while flourishing (and it doesn't) you could still move up to your normal movement, take your off-hand bonus attack and then start your flourish.

[Easy_Lee]

What makes you believe you couldn't use your bonus to make an off-hand attack while flourishing?
I see no wording that would suggest you couldn't and as you pointed out, why would that fighting style be an option in the first place.
Besides, even if it did say you couldn't do it while flourishing (and it doesn't) you could still move up to your normal movement, take your off-hand bonus attack and then start your flourish.

Using that flourish isn't the attack action. TWF requires the attack action. That's why you can't use your TWF bonus action after casting a blade cantrip, using whirlwind, or performing a variety of other actions that involve attacks but aren't actually the attack action.

[FinnS]

Using that flourish isn't the attack action. TWF requires the attack action. That's why you can't use your TWF bonus action after casting a blade cantrip, using whirlwind, or performing a variety of other actions that involve attacks but aren't actually the attack action.

You're still using the Attack action and that is obviously what's intended here by including that style.
Not the first time something in the UA was worded badly.

[Tanarii]

You're still using the Attack actionThey're not using the Attack action. That's the entire point of the thread in the first place ...

[suplee215]

You're still using the Attack action and that is obviously what's intended here by including that style.
Not the first time something in the UA was worded badly.

I doubt it is badly worded. TWF requiring the attack action and there being options to attack that are not attack options that don't work for TWF has been covered multiple times. my guess is they were concerned with TWF with the benefits of blade flourish on every turn being too much. At the very least I would get rid of that at 14th level which specifically encourages you do it every turn and ruins your lvl 3 choice.

[Easy_Lee]

I doubt it is badly worded. TWF requiring the attack action and there being options to attack that are not attack options that don't work for TWF has been covered multiple times. my guess is they were concerned with TWF with the benefits of blade flourish on every turn being too much. At the very least I would get rid of that at 14th level which specifically encourages you do it every turn and ruins your lvl 3 choice.

Then their level 6 was badly worded as well. It isn't extra attack, but instead lets you attack twice when you flourish. So you can TWF and attack twice with your bonus, or flourish and attack twice retaining your bonus.

So as I say, TWF is a particularly egregious trap option here. I agree that this is either poorly worded, or poorly thought out.

[suplee215]

Then their level 6 was badly worded as well. It isn't extra attack, but instead lets you attack twice when you flourish. So you can TWF and attack twice with your bonus, or flourish and attack twice retaining your bonus.

So as I say, TWF is a particularly egregious trap option here. I agree that this is either poorly worded, or poorly thought out.

I go with thought out over worded. I think they overthought it. I do not think TWF not working is something the designers did not think of though.

[Easy_Lee]

I go with thought out over worded. I think they overthought it. I do not think TWF not working is something the designers did not think of though.

So they intended it to be an interior option in every way? That's even worse!

[Tanarii]

So they intended it to be an interior option in every way? That's even worse!
Well, I mean look at Ranger Hunter's Whirlwind ... same issue. Inferior in every way for TWF, and apparently intended to be that way. Unless Mearls is completely unaware that TWF can't be used with things that aren't Attack actions. Given some of his comments on Whirlwind, I'm not completely sure that's not the case.

[FinnS]

My bad actually, I keep forgetting that my group came to the conclusion during our first 5e session that restricting the bonus attack from TWF to only work when one used the actual Attack option was silly.
I can only assume that the majority of complaints regarding TWF originally stem from this silly restriction as well.
That's probably why no one at my table has complained about dual weilding and why I don't see why there is so much complaining in the forums. Because while GWM still does more damage, TWF has more versatility and better action economy sans the Attack option restriction.
I encourage everyone to try lifting the restriction and see what happens. I pretty much guarantee any TWF complaining drops to a whisper.

A TWF Ranger (Hunter) becomes a true skirmisher with crazy good action economy by simply picking up the Mobility feat.

[suplee215]

Has anyone tested TWF with blade flourish though? I wouldn't be surprise if it continues the "insane at early level" trend TWF has. Letting TWF take effect at lvl 6 might stop it from being so good early on though. I do hope they change it for the guide to everything

[FinnS]

Has anyone tested TWF with blade flourish though? I wouldn't be surprise if it continues the "insane at early level" trend TWF has. Letting TWF take effect at lvl 6 might stop it from being so good early on though. I do hope they change it for the guide to everything

Actually, like anything that uses their Inspiration, it doesn't become good or truly useful until level 5.

[Chunkosaurus]

I remember when it came out a few months ago someone asked Crawford and he confirmed that TWF was intended not to work.

[Kryx]

I wouldn't be surprise if it continues the "insane at early level" trend TWF has.
TWF is not insane at early levels. It is exactly at the balance point it should be at levels 1-3. TWF is doing ~95% of a greatsword at those levels - exactly what it should be doing.

[mephnick]

I remember when it came out a few months ago someone asked Crawford and he confirmed that TWF was intended not to work.

Some BS about "giving players options" as if TWF is actually a valid option in that scenario over Dueling. It's one of those decisions that make you want to disregard everything Crawford says (Mearls is always disregarded).

[Chunkosaurus]

Some BS about "giving players options" as if TWF is actually a valid option in that scenario over Dueling. It's one of those decisions that make you want to disregard everything Crawford says (Mearls is always disregarded).

Pretty much when it is literally useless at level 6.

[suplee215]

TWF is not insane at early levels. It is exactly at the balance point it should be at levels 1-3. TWF is doing ~95% of a greatsword at those levels - exactly what it should be doing.
Well I was using hyperbole. Also, you can blade flourish but not use the inspiration die. Not sure if the extra movement is enough to break the game but I do think it'll be pointless to make a special option when bladeslingers will use it every single turn.

[FinnS]

TWF is not insane at early levels. It is exactly at the balance point it should be at levels 1-3. TWF is doing ~95% of a greatsword at those levels - exactly what it should be doing.

95%?

How is 1d6{3.5)+1d6(3.5)+mod 95% of 2d6(7)+mod?
They are exactly equal for levels 1-3.

Throwing in Dual Wield Style, Great Weapon Style and assuming a non-human 18 Ability score you have:
1d6(3.5)+4 X2 vs 2d6(9)+4 *Great Weapon Style changes dice avg from 3.5 on a 6 to 4.5*
or 15 avg damg vs 13 avg damg

Adding TWF and GWM feats changes things but also means you're a Variant Human so your max ability score can now only be a 17 by the book giving us:
1d8(4.5)+3 X2 vs 2d6(9)+13
or 15 vs 22

Am I missing something?

[FinnS]

Well I was using hyperbole. Also, you can blade flourish but not use the inspiration die. Not sure if the extra movement is enough to break the game but I do think it'll be pointless to make a special option when bladeslingers will use it every single turn.

Certainly wouldn't through levels 1-4 anyway only being able to use Blade Flourish with Inspiration 3-5 times PER DAY.

[Chunkosaurus]

Certainly wouldn't through levels 1-4 anyway only being able to use Blade Flourish with Inspiration 3-5 times PER DAY.

Yep playing a College of sword bard right now an I just got to level 5 bard, but I started one level of fighter for proficiencies, saves, and a fighting style. Using the inspiration has been questionable with 4 per day. Although the extra movement is really good with the mobile feat which I took. I have like 50 or more feet of movement a turn.

[FinnS]

Yep playing a College of sword bard right now an I just got to level 5 bard, but I started one level of fighter for proficiencies, saves, and a fighting style. Using the inspiration has been questionable with 4 per day. Although the extra movement is really good with the mobile feat which I took. I have like 50 or more feet of movement a turn.

Yeah, you have to take 1 Level of Fighter or 2 levels of Ranger/Pally before you hit 3rd level Bard if you want a second Fighting Style because once you pick your College of Swords Fighting Style at 3rd, it expressly says..."You can’t take a Fighting Style option more than once, even if something in the game lets you choose again."

[Chunkosaurus]

Yeah, you have to take 1 Level of Fighter or 2 levels of Ranger/Pally before you hit 3rd level Bard if you want a second Fighting Style because once you pick your College of Swords Fighting Style at 3rd, it expressly says..."You can’t take a Fighting Style option more than once, even if something in the game lets you choose again."

That just means you can't choose the same style twice like grabbing dueling from 3 different classes and having like +6 damage on every strike not including dex/str bonuses. I took defense from fighter and dueling from Bard. I am sword and board with 19 AC and +2 damage to every strike

[suplee215]

Certainly wouldn't through levels 1-4 anyway only being able to use Blade Flourish with Inspiration 3-5 times PER DAY.
If I am reading blade flourish right, you can blade flourish without using the bardish inspiration.

[Easy_Lee]

If the archetype could flourish once per turn when making an attack and got extra attack at 6, that would fix all of my issues with it.

[FinnS]

If I am reading blade flourish right, you can blade flourish without using the bardish inspiration.

Right but the simple Flourish part getting +10' movement is not overpowering in itself.
The ability to crank your AC, do a mini-whirlwind or gain yet another 5-10' move on top of the original flourish 10' five times per encounter.

Basically you just became a pseudo Battlemaster Fighter with the movement speed of a Monk while still being a full Bard with full spells.

[Easy_Lee]

Right but the simple Flourish part getting +10' movement is not overpowering in itself.
The ability to crank your AC, do a mini-whirlwind or gain yet another 5-10' move on top of the original flourish 10' five times per encounter.

Basically you just became a pseudo Battlemaster Fighter with the movement speed of a Monk while still being a full Bard with full spells.

Limited to two attacks forever, no GWM or SS or PM, MAD, and without some of the better BM maneuvers. Spellsinger arguably adds a bigger boon, and it's AL-legal.

[Kryx]

95%?

Am I missing something?
See DPR of classes in my signature. It varies for each class based on class features.

95% or 100%, both are acceptable variance from GWM. Not the 65-75% after level 4.

[Kryx]

If the archetype could flourish once per turn when making an attack and got extra attack at 6, that would fix all of my issues with it.
I just houserule it to function properly. TWF is a trap for it like was pointed out above. This is a case where I'll freely agree that Crawford's RAI of TWF and flourish is bonkers: "it's only situationally (before level 5) good". Madness.

[FinnS]

Limited to two attacks forever, no GWM or SS or PM, MAD, and without some of the better BM maneuvers. Spellsinger arguably adds a bigger boon, and it's AL-legal.

There is absolutely nothing that says you have to have a light, finesse or even a one-handed weapon to use Blade Flourish.

[Easy_Lee]

There is absolutely nothing that says you have to have a light, finesse or even a one-handed weapon to use Blade Flourish.

Well, if you go with a heavy weapon then you don't get a fighting style that helps. Also, you'd need to have 14 dexterity to keep your AC reasonable. And anyone who enters melee with less than 14 constitution is nuts. You're a bard, so you want 16 charisma or more. You also want 16 or more strength.

So, if you rolled really well, go for it I suppose.

[FinnS]

See DPR of classes in my signature. It varies for each class based on class features.

95% or 100%, both are acceptable variance from GWM. Not the 65-75% after level 4.

Yeah I kinda figured it was the "full" math with Crits and everything calculated in.

I of course will not agree with your 95% conclusion because all that math is under optimal conditions basically on tank and spanks.
Those numbers rarely, if ever, actually translate to the table.

It's like taking the Sentinel feat as a Rogue. There is no mathematical formula that can show just how much of a DPR upgrade it is because no formula can predict how often you can manipulate situations to guarantee you getting your reaction attack.
You just know after a few encounters that it most certainly is a substantial DPR increase.
Same for a smart GWM targetting weaker or wounded enemies to ensure the use of their Bonus attack for killing something.

So the math might say TWF is at around so much compared to GWM, the reality at the actual table TWF comes in noticeably short of the math/theory %.

[FinnS]

Well, if you go with a heavy weapon then you don't get a fighting style that helps. Also, you'd need to have 14 dexterity to keep your AC reasonable. And anyone who enters melee with less than 14 constitution is nuts. You're a bard, so you want 16 charisma or more. You also want 16 or more strength.

So, if you rolled really well, go for it I suppose.

That of course is why you would do exactly what the previous poster did and start as a 1rst level Fighter.
DEX is now a dump stat cause you're running around in heavy armor and you could pick a more suitable fighting style like GWF or Defensive.
It's the only way you could have martial proficiency in heavy 2-handed weapons without spending a feat anyway.

I mean hell, if you really think about it, going STR with GWM is the best route to, as you said, not getting locked in for only 2 attacks forever.

[Easy_Lee]

That of course is why you would do exactly what the previous poster did and start as a 1rst level Fighter.
DEX is now a dump stat cause you're running around in heavy armor and you could pick a more suitable fighting style like GWF or Defensive.
It's the only way you could have martial proficiency in heavy 2-handed weapons without spending a feat anyway.

I mean hell, if you really think about it, going STR with GWM is the best route to, as you said, not getting locked in for only 2 attacks forever.

In that case you delay your bard progression. Besides the fact that UA isn't even designed with multiclassing in mind, like everyone always says.

[FinnS]

In that case you delay your bard progression. Besides the fact that UA isn't even designed with multiclassing in mind, like everyone always says.

You know just as well as I do that the benefits you gain from that 1 level of Fighter GREATLY out weigh a single level delay on your Bard progression and i sincerely hope you're not worrying about missing out on the Bard 20th capstone ability heh
And the second part of your post is just a cop out that basically translates to "you're right but I just won't admit it" lol

[Easy_Lee]

You know just as well as I do that the benefits you gain from that 1 level of Fighter GREATLY out weigh a single level delay on your Bard progression and i sincerely hope you're not worrying about missing out on the Bard 20th capstone ability heh
And the second part of your post is just a cop out that basically translates to "you're right but I just won't admit it" lol

Why so hostile? They've said numerous times that UA stuff isn't balanced for multiclass. I can think of UA options that break even harder with multiclass, such as Hexblade. So I don't know what you're trying to prove here. You can think of a way to make a particular UA broken by multiclassing? Good for you, bud.

[FinnS]

Why so hostile? They've said numerous times that UA stuff isn't balanced for multiclass. I can think of UA options that break even harder with multiclass, such as Hexblade. So I don't know what you're trying to prove here. You can think of a way to make a particular UA broken by multiclassing? Good for you, bud.

I wasn't being hostile, I was joking around at the end, hence the "lol"
To your point though...any class, published or UA can be broken with multi-classing.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I remember when it came out a few months ago someone asked Crawford and he confirmed that TWF was intended not to work.

Asked Crawford on twitter when it came out, was severely disappointed when he responded. It's like they made something awesome for all the other options but then saw TWFing trying to join the party and stopped him at the door. RIP my awesome Blade Bard/Swashbuckler, dervishing his way through the sands of time with his two trusty scimitars.

Blade Flourish is still good, would be even better if you could gestalt into the Satire bard for Tumble.

[Kryx]

all that math is under optimal conditions basically on tank and spanks.
Those numbers rarely, if ever, actually translate to the table.
That's not what DPR is, at all.

The napkin style math you provided is the actual vacuum math that does not take any outside factors into account. As soon as outside factors come into play (level 1 or 2 depending on the class) napkin math is misleading at best.

Though this topic isn't so relevant to the flourish topic so I suggest we don't dive deeply into it.

[Tanarii]

Though this topic isn't so relevant to the flourish topic so I suggest we don't dive deeply into it.
Quick question. I'm not in a place to easily look at your links, and I know they look at a myriad of different scenarios, but:
does TWF gain, relatively speaking, on GWM without a ready source of advantage?

I assume giving up an attack to shove prone does, because giving up one GWM attack to shove is huge compared to giving up one TWF attack. So this is just a general question of 'can get advantage' DPR ratio to 'can't'.

[Kryx]

does TWF gain, relatively speaking, on GWM without a ready source of advantage?
I'll pm you to avoid spamming this thread with off topic info as GWM isn't relevant to blade flourish.