Can you actually kill a god?

[White Blade]

So, GiantITP (henceforth, You) are a mighty, tyrannical Mage of utmost power (level 20, no pun-pun, otherwise, knock yourself out) and you rule over an area of land that is very, very substantial. Perhaps a continent, perhaps the world. The scale isn't really relevant.

Upon one fine morning in your terrible realm the prayers of your ungrateful masses congeal into a demigod of faintest power. Fresh minted upon the astral plane, this revolutionary deity appears buck naked with a mere 20 Outsider levels (stats: 24, 24, 24, 31, 25, 43), the domain of good, liberation, and war, and two salient divine abilities: Alter Reality and Battlesense. Her feats have been spent not stupidly but not well (The three save bonus feats, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, and Mobility). Her whole purpose in life is to kill you, our esteemed overlord.

You did not know this was a thing that could happen. However, the pre-existing gods of the world are in a cosmic Cold War that has (fortuitously for you) rendered them unwilling to engage in mortal affairs to topple your government. Unfortunately, this did not move them into position to fight for you.

Assuming these conditions, can you actually kill an intelligently played deity or do they simply stack time stops and high level buffs until they emerge to murder you with a mage's disjunction and so-forth.

[ben-zayb]

Ice Assassin of its Aleax?

[Crake]

With alter reality, the deity is quite literally capable of granting itself whichever feats it likes through playing with Heroics/DCFS, it can wish things into existence, it can genesis itself a dead magic plane where it's abilities still function while it prepares to fight you. I don't think there's much a mortal can do to contest that.

[White Blade]

Ice Assassin of its Aleax?

Adding in her Aleax is a bit unnecessary.

There's no particularly good reason why she cannot do this to you (or, rather, herself), approximately 960 as many times to you. Assuming she doesn't bother to use Time Stop or Demiplane shananagins. Which there's really no reason not to, when you think about it. Of course, if you take eight hours, you're really just asking to die anyway.

More likely, you'd be using such shananagins on yourself - Thus exponentially increasing your own magical power. I'm not sure how much EXP we are projecting for you to spend, but even if we assume that you have a thousand is there a decent chance that such preparations allow you to gank the newborn god before she does anything threatening to you personally? Well obviously, you're mind blanked and hiding somewhere no one will ever find you or seek to look for you.

But I'm not sure that gives you a sufficient edge - Time stop at will is pretty much end stage power. Maybe a contingent spell on all of them to greater teleport home to you if you are hurt? Does that help? Why isn't she fielding her own Ice Aleax army against you? I mean, YOU have one, so she must know that it can be done. Hers are obviously way more powerful than yours.

[prototype00]

Query: Are freshly born gods without any magic related domains or portfolios meant to have perfect knowledge of all spells and effects?

If not shouldn't the reaction to the ice assassin be "What in my name is this witchcraft!" And not, "yep, good ol' IA. Here, have a dozen more for your troubles.".

[White Blade]

Query: Are freshly born gods without any magic related domains or portfolios meant to have perfect knowledge of all spells and effects?

If not shouldn't the reaction to the ice assassin be "What in my name is this witchcraft!" And not, "yep, good ol' IA. Here, have a dozen more for your troubles.".

Well, it has 18x23 skill points and a +11 stat/divine rank bonus on INT based skills? Is Knowledge (Arcane) enough? Because if so, I feel fairly certain the character would have it. But if it's not, you have a point. It does seem to stretch it to say, "Newborn God has maxed out Spellcraft ranks!"

[ben-zayb]

The new god doesn't have enough time to buff her initiative, to cast her first spell, nor to make her first contingency, so if we go by non-PunPun infinite loops (Such as time stops) it'll be over for baby god.

Even if the Wizard was unprepared, he can just replicate his readymade psionic save-fame trick

[prototype00]

Afraid not, Knowledge Arcana gets you secret info and whatnot, but spell knowledge is specifically Spellcraft.

So this demigod is powerful and straightforward, but doesn't do shenanigans is what you are saying?

[White Blade]

The new god doesn't have enough time to buff her initiative, to cast her first spell, nor to make her first contingency, so if we go by non-PunPun infinite loops (Such as time stops) it'll be over for baby god.

Even if the Wizard was unprepared, he can just replicate his readymade psionic save-fame trick
How does the Wizard know to do... Anything at all? Is there a spell that detects any threat to you? Is there a spell that makes you keenly aware of all things in an area?

Afraid not, Knowledge Arcana gets you secret info and whatnot, but spell knowledge is specifically Spellcraft.

So this demigod is powerful and straightforward, but doesn't do shenanigans is what you are saying?
That seems likely. Anything you might naturally find yourself imagining doing, she does but probably not D&D specific cheese like ice assassin Aleax.

[prototype00]

How does the Wizard know to do... Anything at all? Is there a spell that detects any threat to you? Is there a spell that makes you keenly aware of all things in an area?

That seems likely. Anything you might naturally find yourself imagining doing, she does but probably not D&D specific cheese like ice assassin Aleax.

Foresight (lvl 9) gives you advanced (not too advanced, I suppose, but close enough) warning about all threats. The Wizard just has to cheese its initiative up high enough at that point to go first.

If the demigod decides to teleport to the Wizard's location it is probably dead as Greater Anticipate Teleport (6th) gives our Wizard friend three rounds to cast spells in.

[Ellrin]

So, GiantITP (henceforth, You) are a mighty, tyrannical Mage of utmost power (level 20, no pun-pun, otherwise, knock yourself out) and you rule over an area of land that is very, very substantial. Perhaps a continent, perhaps the world. The scale isn't really relevant.

Upon one fine morning in your terrible realm the prayers of your ungrateful masses congeal into a demigod of faintest power. Fresh minted upon the astral plane, this revolutionary deity appears buck naked with a mere 20 Outsider levels (stats: 24, 24, 24, 31, 25, 43), the domain of good, liberation, and war, and two salient divine abilities: Alter Reality and Battlesense. Her feats have been spent not stupidly but not well (The three save bonus feats, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, and Mobility). Her whole purpose in life is to kill you, our esteemed overlord.

You did not know this was a thing that could happen. However, the pre-existing gods of the world are in a cosmic Cold War that has (fortuitously for you) rendered them unwilling to engage in mortal affairs to topple your government. Unfortunately, this did not move them into position to fight for you.

Assuming these conditions, can you actually kill an intelligently played deity or do they simply stack time stops and high level buffs until they emerge to murder you with a mage's disjunction and so-forth.

Her wisdom sucks (for a god). After stacking time stops, etc., I skyrocket my Bluff to ridiculous levels and then convince her to go bother someone in a completely different universe.

[shaikujin]

Intelligently played deity as in one of the optimizers in the forum is controlling the deity? With full WBL?
And access to the same TO tricks optimizers use?

[ben-zayb]

How does the Wizard know to do... Anything at all? Is there a spell that detects any threat to you? Is there a spell that makes you keenly aware of all things in an area?

That seems likely. Anything you might naturally find yourself imagining doing, she does but probably not D&D specific cheese like ice assassin Aleax.

You mean if you go so TO that you are effectively omnipresent? Sure you are aware.

By the way, people are yet to address how the God is going to act once the wizard gets the jump on it. Alter Reality takes a standard action

[ryu]

You mean if you go so TO that you are effectively omnipresent? Sure you are aware.

By the way, people are yet to address how the God is going to act once the wizard gets the jump on it. Alter Reality takes a standard action

I mean yeah we can literally have a timestop loop from the point of god birth leading into teleport through time to send an ice assassin servant to a week before the birth. It shows up in front of past me and is immediately subject to past me's control due to still having been alive back then. This grants its warning authenticity. Now we simply kill enough peasants during the week that the demigod can't be born. Easy peasy.

[Crake]

Foresight (lvl 9) gives you advanced (not too advanced, I suppose, but close enough) warning about all threats. The Wizard just has to cheese its initiative up high enough at that point to go first.

If the demigod decides to teleport to the Wizard's location it is probably dead as Greater Anticipate Teleport (6th) gives our Wizard friend three rounds to cast spells in.

Except that alter reality can duplicate wish at will, and wish can let a deity simply be where they want, without teleporting. Plus the diety can have a permanent, enlarged antimagic field up, allowing it to use alter reality indiscriminately, while the wizard is stuck unable to cast, and without their initiative buffs come initiative time. Oh, and foresight is now down, so they're flat footed once again, and thus unable to use immediate actions. Then come the deity's turn, he just hits the wizard with a save or die, targetting his worst save, which will be completely unbuffed thanks to the amf, and bam, wizard down. For extra credit, use thinuan to capture the wizard's soul, ensuring no resurrection shenannigans, then find a sphere of annihilation and toss the thinuan into it, forever eliminating the wizard.

Literally, anything the wizard can do, the deity can do better. It's just not even a competition.

Also, there's no reason the deity wouldn't have spellcraft as a class skill, as practically every other deity has it, so they'll be able to recognize any spell automatically.

Edit: Also, if we're using time based shenannigans, the god can use alter reality to teleport through time to establish it's own existence for all of reality, so let's not get into those kinds of shenannigans. I would also imagine that reaching total omnipotence, such that the deity wouldn't even have a chance to use a single standard action from the moment of it's conception would cease to cover "mortal affairs" and you'd trigger the other gods coming in for a smackdown.

[Mordaedil]

Basically, you can try, but it likely isn't going to end well for you. To fight a deity, you ought to at least have a bunch of epic levels and some epic level abilities that can harm deities.

Most pre-epic magic does not affect deities and that's where the wizard loses his providence as a 20th level character.

[ryu]

Basically, you can try, but it likely isn't going to end well for you. To fight a deity, you ought to at least have a bunch of epic levels and some epic level abilities that can harm deities.

Most pre-epic magic does not affect deities and that's where the wizard loses his providence as a 20th level character.

Yeah most magic can't directly effect a deity, but causality can. Optimizing entirely within the given challenge rules, the wizard wins against this god. Why? Everything that isn't pun-pun is allowed, and the other gods are STATED to be unwilling to act against us.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Seems like it's going to be a question of "how hard is the god going with using Alter Reality to replicate TO spell play?"

[ryu]

Seems like it's going to be a question of "how hard is the god going with using Alter Reality to replicate TO spell play?"

Not really. It needs to get a standard action to do that.

[shaikujin]

2 Divine Salient powers, so the Deity has Divine Rank 2?

How far can the player controlling the Deity stretch the interpretation of Automatic Powers?

Ie: "When performing an action within its portfolio, a deity can perform any action as a free action"

[White Blade]

Wait... How are people time traveling?

But essentially the question is, from a TO standpoint, can you kill a God you don't know about in six seconds. Apparently, the answer is yes, because time travel. I have no idea how that works.

Of course, one also has Foresight which is worded in such a way that she's probably boned. Unless said new god can survive longer after getting buffs up.

[Crake]

Not really. It needs to get a standard action to do that.

If you're going to make a claim that the deity wouldn't even get the chance to perform a standard action, at least cite some kind of build or abilities that would give a wizard total omnipotence across the cosmos that would alert him and give him enough time to get to the diety and kill it before a standard action can be used.


Wait... How are people time traveling?

But essentially the question is, from a TO standpoint, can you kill a God you don't know about in six seconds. Apparently, the answer is yes, because time travel. I have no idea how that works.

Of course, one also has Foresight which is worded in such a way that she's probably boned. Unless said new god can survive longer after getting buffs up.

Time travel is done with the teleport through time spell, which was introduced in a wotc article. It's not an easy spell to cast though, and certainly not something that a wizard would be able to set up within 6 seconds, so I don't know why people would be thinking of using that, since the deity CAN use it as a standard action. Also, foresight is pretty clear what benefits it grants the caster, so you cannot use foresight to know that the deity has come into being, as it gives no such complicated warnings.

[Red Fel]

I have explained this before. So (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17323675&postcount=2) very (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19452040&postcount=16), very (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17129556&postcount=15), many (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18345868&postcount=9) times (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21525503&postcount=5).

Short version? If your DM wants you to kill a god, yes, you can kill a god. If your DM plays a deity like the unoptimized bag of stats they are in the book, like any other monster but with a fancy name, yes, you can kill a god.

But if your DM doesn't want you to kill a god, no, you can't kill a god. (Technically true for any monster, but moreso for gods.) If your DM plays a deity as an intelligent being making full use of its Salient Divine Abilities, no, you can't kill a god. If your DM makes use of planar politics, along with the knowledge that godkilling generally puts all cosmic beings on edge and that they will therefore likely try to stop you, no, you can't kill a god.

It's entirely up to your DM, is the point.

[shaikujin]

Wait... How are people time traveling?

But essentially the question is, from a TO standpoint, can you kill a God you don't know about in six seconds. Apparently, the answer is yes, because time travel. I have no idea how that works.


One of the mentioned spells, Teleport Through Time:
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b

Dragonlance setting also has at least 1 more spell plus an Artifact (the Artifact can be found in Kender grab pouches as a random roll).

[ryu]

If you're going to make a claim that the deity wouldn't even get the chance to perform a standard action, at least cite some kind of build or abilities that would give a wizard total omnipotence across the cosmos that would alert him and give him enough time to get to the diety and kill it before a standard action can be used.



Time travel is done with the teleport through time spell, which was introduced in a wotc article. It's not an easy spell to cast though, and certainly not something that a wizard would be able to set up within 6 seconds, so I don't know why people would be thinking of using that, since the deity CAN use it as a standard action. Also, foresight is pretty clear what benefits it grants the caster, so you cannot use foresight to know that the deity has come into being, as it gives no such complicated warnings.

Any of a half dozen different methods of time-stop looping combined with surveillance ice assassins all over the place. Then, from your position IN STOPPED TIME, you take as much time as you damn well please casting whatever preparations necessary. As an in place evil overlord as stated in the thread title you've already got a garden of flowers tended by things which don't violate the rules of teleport through time installed early in your reign.

[Goaty14]

How much HP does it have?

[White Blade]

How much HP does it have?

300. (8+7)X20, per the rules.

[tstewt1921]

Deities & Demigods gave them stats. Per laws of D&D, if it has stats, it can be killed. Doesn't mean it will be easy.

[Raz Dazzle]

Ice Assassin of its Aleax?

Can't be done, unless it already has an existing Aleax.

[ryu]

Deities & Demigods gave them stats. Per laws of D&D, if it has stats, it can AND WILL be killed. Doesn't mean it will be easy.

Fixed that for you.

[Nifft]

I can totally kill any god.


(When I'm the DM.)

[tstewt1921]

Fixed that for you.


Haha! Thanks! I apologize for leaving the most important part out!

[ryu]

Haha! Thanks! I apologize for leaving the most important part out!

Eh it's cool. We were all new at one point or another.

[Nifft]

Eh it's cool. We were all new at one point or another.

Thank goodness us old-timers never forget anything, and never make mistakes.

[ryu]

Thank goodness us old-timers never forget anything, and never make mistakes.

What are you talking about? I use mindrape to deliberately forget things all the time with contingent miracles when situations warrant what was forgot. People can make ice assassins of me, therefore I cannot be trusted with my own knowledge... most of the time.

[Balaur]

Literally, anything the wizard can do, the Sorcerer King can do better. It's just not even a competition.




Wizards can't kill Gods (Sorcerer King). Sorcerer King don't need alter reality to smash Wizards like insect.
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/1d/09/c6/1d09c6e6f33602d21870c685ef10a657.jpg

[Goaty14]

Ok. I think I can do it, but only within 60 ft.

By Casting a metamagic

Arcane Thesis (Magic Missile) reduces metamagic by 1 for magic missile per metamagic used
Maximized Magic Missile deals 25 dmg (5 dmg per missile, 5 missiles)
Ocular Spell Doubles that to 50 dmg
Twin Spell doubles it again to 100 dmg
Energy Admixture doubles it to 200 dmg, but now half force/half energy damage
Delay Spell casts other iterations after Time Stop ends

Normally, this would use a 17th level slot, but Arcane Thesis reduces it to a 12th level slot, and if we add Sudden Metamagic (Twin Spell) (which adds a metamagic without increasing slot level) we reduce the slot by 3, and get a 9th level slot



Round 1: Cast Time Stop, getting us 2-5 rounds of blasting
Time Stop 1 Cast Ocular Twin Energy Admixture (Acid) Maximized Delayed (Set to go off once Time Stop ends) Magic Missile
Time Stop 2 Cast ^ again, but with the delay -1
Time Stop 3 Dispel Time Stop, and let the spell cast
Round 2: You have killed a god with 200 Force Damage, 100 Acid Damage, and put him/her/it at -100 hp (acid damage) for good measure


Also how do I add this single post into my sig?

[Zancloufer]

Ok. I think I can do it, but only within 60 ft.

By Casting a metamagic

Arcane Thesis (Magic Missile) reduces metamagic by 1 for magic missile per metamagic used
Maximized Magic Missile deals 25 dmg (5 dmg per missile, 5 missiles)
Ocular Spell Doubles that to 50 dmg
Twin Spell doubles it again to 100 dmg
Energy Admixture doubles it to 200 dmg, but now half force/half energy damage
Delay Spell casts other iterations after Time Stop ends

Normally, this would use a 17th level slot, but Arcane Thesis reduces it to a 12th level slot, and if we add Sudden Metamagic (Twin Spell) (which adds a metamagic without increasing slot level) we reduce the slot by 3, and get a 9th level slot



Round 1: Cast Time Stop, getting us 2-5 rounds of blasting
Time Stop 1 Cast Ocular Twin Energy Admixture (Acid) Maximized Delayed (Set to go off once Time Stop ends) Magic Missile
Time Stop 2 Cast ^ again, but with the delay -1
Time Stop 3 Dispel Time Stop, and let the spell cast
Round 2: You have killed a god with 200 Force Damage, 100 Acid Damage, and put him/her/it at -100 hp (acid damage) for good measure


Also how do I add this single post into my sig?

Divine Rank 1+ grants immunity to acid/cold/electricity so that wouldn't work. She would also have a base SR of 34 which I don't think you would automatically overcome.

Also I don't get how everyone is saying you catch the god by surprise. Remember that all deities essentially get a week's advance notice per divine rank that someone is going to kill them.

[ryu]

Divine Rank 1+ grants immunity to acid/cold/electricity so that wouldn't work. She would also have a base SR of 34 which I don't think you would automatically overcome.

Also I don't get how everyone is saying you catch the god by surprise. Remember that all deities essentially get a week's advance notice per divine rank that someone is going to kill them.

This is why I keep pointing out time travel and simply not allowing the deity to have an action. Alter reality at will cannot be allowed to pass even once assuming the deity is being played any kind of intelligent.

[gawwy]

This is why I keep pointing out time travel and simply not allowing the deity to have an action. Alter reality at will cannot be allowed to pass even once assuming the deity is being played any kind of intelligent.

Pretty sure all that does is give the god divine rank weeks warning from when you were going to try and kill them in the past. Pretty sure they can ready an action to alter reality after having given themselves spell stowaway(time stop) for the exact second you arrive. If the deity is being played intelligently you cant stop them from using alter reality.

This may change if you can cast an epic spell to be immune to the deities portfolio sense. But im not sure you want deities to have epic spell-casting in this scenario.

[One Step Two]

Notes on Time travel: With the correct applications of divinations centred on “How did this god come to be?" learning about the disaffected masses who prayed it into existence, you travel back in time to correct the problem before it begins.

Simply begin a campaign of mass/chained programmed amnesia/mindrape spells to subvert those who who were crying out agaisnt you. Or you can take the more expensive route, and use your power to simply make everyone happy with create food+prestidigitation traps (Gruel comes in multiple flavours!) and Permanent Images in peoples homes to keep them entertained.

With their grudges out of the way, the God does not exist any more, because there are no prayers to give it form.

[Nifft]

Ok. I think I can do it, but only within 60 ft.

By Casting a metamagic

Arcane Thesis (Magic Missile) reduces metamagic by 1 for magic missile per metamagic used
Maximized Magic Missile deals 25 dmg (5 dmg per missile, 5 missiles)
Ocular Spell Doubles that to 50 dmg
Twin Spell doubles it again to 100 dmg
Energy Admixture doubles it to 200 dmg, but now half force/half energy damage
Delay Spell casts other iterations after Time Stop ends

Normally, this would use a 17th level slot, but Arcane Thesis reduces it to a 12th level slot, and if we add Sudden Metamagic (Twin Spell) (which adds a metamagic without increasing slot level) we reduce the slot by 3, and get a 9th level slot



Round 1: Cast Time Stop, getting us 2-5 rounds of blasting
Time Stop 1 Cast Ocular Twin Energy Admixture (Acid) Maximized Delayed (Set to go off once Time Stop ends) Magic Missile
Time Stop 2 Cast ^ again, but with the delay -1
Time Stop 3 Dispel Time Stop, and let the spell cast
Round 2: You have killed a god with 200 Force Damage, 100 Acid Damage, and put him/her/it at -100 hp (acid damage) for good measure


Also how do I add this single post into my sig?

You're using Occular Spell wrong, and I don't think Admixture works with Force -- it's not on the feat's list of energy types.

[ryu]

Pretty sure all that does is give the god divine rank weeks warning from when you were going to try and kill them in the past. Pretty sure they can ready an action to alter reality after having given themselves spell stowaway(time stop) for the exact second you arrive. If the deity is being played intelligently you cant stop them from using alter reality.

This may change if you can cast an epic spell to be immune to the deities portfolio sense. But im not sure you want deities to have epic spell-casting in this scenario.

Which is why it's important that this starts AS THEY'RE BORN. All that ability to ready an action means sweet nothing when you can't ready an action from non-existence.

[gawwy]

Notes on Time travel: With the correct applications of divinations centred on “How did this god come to be?" learning about the disaffected masses who prayed it into existence, you travel back in time to correct the problem before it begins.

Simply begin a campaign of mass/chained programmed amnesia/mindrape spells to subvert those who who were crying out agaisnt you. Or you can take the more expensive route, and use your power to simply make everyone happy with create food+prestidigitation traps (Gruel comes in multiple flavours!) and Permanent Images in peoples homes to keep them entertained.

With their grudges out of the way, the God does not exist any more, because there are no prayers to give it form.

The only question here is if scrying the birth of the god with the intent to stop it from existing counts as an event related to that gods domain that affects more than 500 people.

On top of which in the forgotten realms (cant talk to Grayhawk or ebberon) while the gods currently require faith that was not always the case (as in pre-time of troubles) and the gods were certainly not born through pure faith but rather either made by older gods or coalescing from the void at the beginning of time. So if your taking the kill them as a baby idea you'll either be dealing with whoever made them or AO directly.

Of course you can put a newborn god in a vacuum give yourself an epic time travel spell, nuke it in the crib and pretend that you've actually killed a settings deity of X. But you really haven't, youve just assumed that causality favors you and that the child god that exists in the timeline where you learn how it was made was somehow ignorant to your efforts.


Which is why it's important that this starts AS THEY'RE BORN. All that ability to ready an action means sweet nothing when you can't ready an action from non-existence.

If you have time travel so does the deity. Im not sure how a fight with a deity that can see the past and future and can time travel is gonna work out for you. odds are not well.

[ryu]

How do you fight a being with time travel? Be the first to time travel. It's really that simple and it's why the timestop at birth is relevant. Why? If I timestop such that you can't do anything until the timestop ends, then proceed to travel back in time during my own timestop, ALL of my actions in the new past take effect on causality before you can do anything. You can't attempt to stop me if you get erased by causality before you get your first literally any action in existence. This is why this is the ideal method for killing enemies in most circumstances. Any active abilities you have but haven't used are meaningless even if you ALSO HAVE TIME TRAVEL. The only defense that matters is literally thinking of this method of attack actively and having sent agents back to every possible point throughout time to prevent attacks on the chain of causality that allows you to exist.

[gawwy]

How do you fight a being with time travel? Be the first to time travel. It's really that simple and it's why the timestop at birth is relevant. Why? If I timestop such that you can't do anything until the timestop ends, then proceed to travel back in time during my own timestop, ALL of my actions in the new past take effect on causality before you can do anything. You can't attempt to stop me if you get erased by causality before you get your first literally any action in existence. This is why this is the ideal method for killing enemies in most circumstances. Any active abilities you have but haven't used are meaningless even if you ALSO HAVE TIME TRAVEL. The only defense that matters is literally thinking of this method of attack actively and having sent agents back to every possible point throughout time to prevent attacks on the chain of causality that allows you to exist.

So your reply to "Can you kill this god" is yes as long as im omniscient and can time travel and causality works the way i think it does and stops the god from being able to time travel while also meaning i remember that the god will exist? Sounds like a no to me.

[ryu]

So your reply to "Can you kill this god" is yes as long as im omniscient and can time travel and causality works the way i think it does and stops the god from being able to time travel while also meaning i remember that the god will exist? Sounds like a no to me.

Except literally ALL OF THOSE are bundled into 20th level wizard when all but pun-pun is on the table. Teleport through time is an 8th level arcane spell for Vecna's sake...

[One Step Two]

The only question here is if scrying the birth of the god with the intent to stop it from existing counts as an event related to that gods domain that affects more than 500 people.

On top of which in the forgotten realms (cant talk to Grayhawk or ebberon) while the gods currently require faith that was not always the case (as in pre-time of troubles) and the gods were certainly not born through pure faith but rather either made by older gods or coalescing from the void at the beginning of time. So if your taking the kill them as a baby idea you'll either be dealing with whoever made them or AO directly.

Of course you can put a newborn god in a vacuum give yourself an epic time travel spell, nuke it in the crib and pretend that you've actually killed a settings deity of X. But you really haven't, youve just assumed that causality favors you and that the child god that exists in the timeline where you learn how it was made was somehow ignorant to your efforts.

If you have time travel so does the deity. Im not sure how a fight with a deity that can see the past and future and can time travel is gonna work out for you. odds are not well.

Well, given the parameters of the challenge set by this thread, this god was sprung forth by the prayers of the masses to stop our wizard in question. If their faith compells it existence and grants them powers, by robbing them of prayers and faith, if it does not cease their existence, they would have no followers, and should lose their Divine Ranks.

As for it's portfolio sense? Well, we havent got what her porfolio pertains to. We have their goals, and their domains, that's it. So without a listed portfolio, no portfolio sense, and then I guess... they never see it coming?

[gawwy]

Except literally ALL OF THOSE are bundled into 20th level wizard when all but pun-pun is on the table. Teleport through time is an 8th level arcane spell for Vecna's sake...

The omniscient's most certainly is not on the table. If it was learning after the fact the god had been created and then researching how and when that happened then time traveling then it might be tenable. But you're insisting that you would know less than a standard action after it had been created that you would know.

Then the other part about causality is way way off. You presume that your actions are going to be allowed by causality and that your actions are going to prevent a being that can literally see through time (both into the past and the future) from following you.

Not good assumptions.

[icefractal]

First off, if "anything short of Pun Pun" means NI loops are on the table, then it's likely a stalemate. You have an arbitrarily large army of recursively generated Ice Assassins. So does the god. There is no way to resolve the battle by the rules. The DM says "screw this, we're playing a different system next week" and leaves.

With that off the table, things aren't looking good. The only advantages you have are:
* Class features besides spell casting.
* Prep time for things that can't be done in a time stop.

Unfortunately for the latter, I can't think of many that aren't NI loops. Acquiring artifacts?

[White Blade]

Well, given the parameters of the challenge set by this thread, this god was sprung forth by the prayers of the masses to stop our wizard in question. If their faith compells it existence and grants them powers, by robbing them of prayers and faith, if it does not cease their existence, they would have no followers, and should lose their Divine Ranks.

As for it's portfolio sense? Well, we havent got what her porfolio pertains to. We have their goals, and their domains, that's it. So without a listed portfolio, no portfolio sense, and then I guess... they never see it coming?

Portfolio sense does not allow sense into the future as a demigod. That said, portfolio is "revolution" or some equivalent..

[Nifft]

Can't we just wake up Pandorym and let that guy kill *all* the gods?

Killing all the gods is a sure-fire way to kill any one specific god.

[gawwy]

Portfolio sense does not allow sense into the future as a demigod. That said, portfolio is "revolution" or some equivalent..

So the thread title should be "Can you actually kill a DEMIgod"?

[ryu]

The omniscient's most certainly is not on the table. If it was learning after the fact the god had been created and then researching how and when that happened then time traveling then it might be tenable. But you're insisting that you would know less than a standard action after it had been created that you would know.

Then the other part about causality is way way off. You presume that your actions are going to be allowed by causality and that your actions are going to prevent a being that can literally see through time (both into the past and the future) from following you.

Not good assumptions.

Teleport through time as far back as you're capable of going. If you're capable of eschewing non-costly components as by RAW this is the beginning of time. The strictest possible interpretation of rules with a DM determined to limit the age of flowers you can find far beyond any reasonable standard limits you to ''merely'' however far back in time the beginning of your reign was, or a bit sooner if you set up your garden before taking over. Congratulations. You now have the ability to place an exponentially growing arbitrarily large number of ice assassins of ice assassins of you to act as sentries of your will at all possible points of time between present and the point in the past. Why ice assassins of ice assassins? None of that pesky desire to kill you for DMs to finagle about. the middle children get exterminated when no longer necessary and are incapable of resisting this fate due to your control. Now what do you time minions do? Looping time stop to literally scan every instant of stopped time for threats. Congratulations. You're now Omniscient of the time period between as far back as you could go and now, and that could be ALL the way back.

[Drakevarg]

You're trying to kill a god, not pull such ridiculous cheese as to antagonize the overdeity.

[White Blade]

So the thread title should be "Can you actually kill a DEMIgod"?

I suppose? My point was to pit the bare minimum god against a maximum pre-epic wizard.

Even so, a lesser deity also cannot sense the future and the past.

[gawwy]

Ice Assassin:
XP Cost: 5,000.

sorry how many ice assassins?

[Nifft]

You're trying to kill a god, not pull such ridiculous cheese as to antagonize the overdeity.

A good setting won't have an over-deity.

[Drakevarg]

A good setting won't have an over-deity.

A good setting defined as what? Whichever lets you win?

[ryu]

Ice Assassin:
XP Cost: 5,000.

sorry how many ice assassins?

XP cost nullification isn't pun-pun therefore it happens. You wanna go over the ways before I simply tell you the number of ice assassins is physically larger PURELY IN TEXT FORM than either of us are capable of comprehending and leave it at that.

As for the person calling excessive: Does it solve the challenge? Then it doesn't matter if it's overkill. I was told to bring EVERYTHING, but pun-pun. Not everything reasonable. Not a few good tricks. EVERYTHING.

[White Blade]

You're trying to kill a god, not pull such ridiculous cheese as to antagonize the overdeity.

That implies this strategy is even a threat to a lesser deity that conjures ice assassins of ice assassins of itself a thousand time a day and time stops on top of spontaneous wizard spells with auto-quicken-persist-maximized.

There's no question that pre-epic world conquering mage would get eaten alive with any god that started before you.

[Drakevarg]

As for the person calling excessive: Does it solve the challenge? Then it doesn't matter if it's overkill. I was told to bring EVERYTHING, but pun-pun. Not everything reasonable. Not a few good tricks. EVERYTHING.

More to the point, given that the scenario has a "plot," i.e., does not exist in a contextless white void of theoretical optimization, it can be assumed to not be occurring in a vacuum. And if your strategy involves such causality-sundering nonsense as omniscience via fractal ice assassins from the dawn of time, I suspect that it wouldn't go unnoticed by things that would get offended upon noticing it.

[ryu]

More to the point, given that the scenario has a "plot," i.e., does not exist in a contextless white void of theoretical optimization, it can be assumed to not be occurring in a vacuum. And if your strategy involves such causality-sundering nonsense as omniscience via fractal ice assassins from the dawn of time, I suspect that it wouldn't go unnoticed by things that would get offended upon noticing it.

We have explicate call by the OP of the thread that all entities that aren't our little godling aren't acting. Your point, in other words, is interesting but rendered moot by the very premise of the thread.

Other guy: Oh yeah deity that starts first with intelligent play and the same rules as you auto wins all situations because alter reality is alter reality. That isn't what this is though. This is asking for celestial time abortion of a newborn deity. We can totally do that.

[Drakevarg]

We have explicate call by the OP of the thread that all entities that aren't our little godling aren't acting. Your point, in other words, is interesting but rendered moot by the very premise of the thread.

Well, the explicit call was that there's a celestial Cold War going on that prevents divine intervention on mortal affairs like toppling your government. Whether that stalemate would hold up once you started bending the timestream over the table is another question entirely (especially since it assumes that this Cold War exists along the entire timeline and not just the present).

[ryu]

Well, the explicit call was that there's a celestial Cold War going on that prevents divine intervention on mortal affairs like toppling your government. Whether that stalemate would hold up once you started bending the timestream over the table is another question entirely (especially since it assumes that this Cold War exists along the entire timeline and not just the present).

Word of god has already said repeatedly that this wasn't about other gods in various ways. Until it says otherwise I continue to operate on that premise.

[Drakevarg]

Word of god has already said repeatedly that this wasn't about other gods in various ways. Until it says otherwise I continue to operate on that premise.

"Repeatedly"? I can find maybe one point where the OP made that call.

[ben-zayb]

Yeah... Looks like a lot of people here don't actually grasp what TO is about, and what it is capable off even without Pun-Pun.

Protip: It doesn't mesh well with the concept of "reasonable optimization".

The fact that Pun-Pun is banned should already be enough of an obvious hint that powers reaching that level aren't monitored by DMPC deities in a TO exercise otherwise.

[ryu]

"Repeatedly"? I can find maybe one point where the OP made that call.

The OP, Over half the posts in the thread by said poster, the fact that despite people bringing up other deities and other deities not acting the OP has done nothing to specify a point of action when the previously stated point was none.

[Drakevarg]

The OP, Over half the posts in the thread by said poster, the fact that despite people bringing up other deities and other deities not acting the OP has done nothing to specify a point of action when the previously stated point was none.

I read through every post in the thread, he scarcely mentions other gods. So your argument seems to come off as "he didn't not say it."

[ryu]

I read through every post in the thread, he scarcely mentions other gods. So your argument seems to come off as "he didn't not say it."

He scarcely posts in the thread by count. There's less than ten of them and every time other gods are even remotely brought up the amount of involvement is either explicitly no, or simply acknowledging challenge complete without bringing up pet DMPCs to muddy things.

[Drakevarg]

He scarcely posts in the thread by count. There's less than ten of them and every time other gods are even remotely brought up the amount of involvement is either explicitly no, or simply acknowledging challenge complete without bringing up pet DMPCs to muddy things.

This is literally the only other time the OP mentions other gods besides the target, aside from a few mentions of gods in general in terms of describing divine powers.

There's no question that pre-epic world conquering mage would get eaten alive with any god that started before you.

So I have no idea where you're getting this from other than it keeps your strategy intact.

[White Blade]

The gods act when you start to move outside a theoretical space of which you are well aware. But said theoretical space is very broad - There's very little they can't do better, faster and stronger than you. These are optimized 60 HD characters with Alter Reality and lifespans longer than the world on which you live. They're not scared of you, because they did your cheese better and earlier than you did. Of course they can undo your existence by Teleporting through Time to undo you, whilst keeping you busy with their nine billion Ice Assassins of Aleax of themselves. They could instantly nuke the planet into a magic-free desert and stalk you out of existence. They could similarly dimensionally anchor your planet.

[ryu]

This is literally the only other time the OP mentions other gods besides the target, aside from a few mentions of gods in general in terms of describing divine powers.


So I have no idea where you're getting this from other than it keeps your strategy intact.

Considering the OP has already admitted this strategy fulfills his challenge and this argument is point ''some is WRONG on the internet!'' fodder I'm just hitting the ignore button.

OP: Indeed. I never stated I could kill a deity with no head-start. Just the challenge.

[Drakevarg]

The gods act when you start to move outside a theoretical space of which you are well aware.

This is pretty much my entire point. Spell cheese in a personal duel between a near-epic wizard and a newborn demigod? Not their problem. Omniscience via fractal ice assassins from the dawn of time? Probably slightly more of their problem.

[Nifft]

and lifespans longer than the world on which you live. Woah there buddy.

The Demon-Haunted Earth is billions of years old. The oldest of the Known Gods are less than 2,000 years old.

Are you claiming to know something about my setting that I don't?


They could instantly nuke the planet into a magic-free desert and stalk you out of existence. They could similarly dimensionally anchor your planet. No, they cannot.

[ben-zayb]

The gods act when you start to move outside a theoretical space of which you are well aware. But said theoretical space is very broad - There's very little they can't do better, faster and stronger than you. These are optimized 60 HD characters with Alter Reality and lifespans longer than the world on which you live. They're not scared of you, because they did your cheese better and earlier than you did. Of course they can undo your existence by Teleporting through Time to undo you, whilst keeping you busy with their nine billion Ice Assassins of Aleax of themselves. They could instantly nuke the planet into a magic-free desert and stalk you out of existence. They could similarly dimensionally anchor your planet.

So.. They pretty much won't do anything, because their portfolio sense guarantees you aren't touching any of them--you are just undoing some newly-minted deity, using all the arbitrarily high resources and time that you have. Newborn deity still loses hard, with nary a chance at even reacting.

[Mordaedil]

One of the mentioned spells, Teleport Through Time:
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b

Dragonlance setting also has at least 1 more spell plus an Artifact (the Artifact can be found in Kender grab pouches as a random roll).

That Material Component though. If your DM allows you to Eschew that, I don't think he's doing your feat properly.

[shaikujin]

That Material Component though. If your DM allows you to Eschew that, I don't think he's doing your feat properly.

Yeah the untouched plant is a problem.
It still depends on the optimization levels the table is playing with though. And how much cheese is acceptable in this particular exercise. "Everything is allowed short of Pun-Pun" as indicated in the OP means a lot of cheese is on the table.

Other methods-
Wish for a scroll of that spell (meaning material components are already included)
Tainted Sorceror's Blood Component

[RoboEmperor]

If it has stats it can be killed.

As for killing a god without TO material...
God v.s. You + Ice Assassin, you + ice assassin will always win. This is not TO because you are using the spell as intended.
surprise round 1 shot kill. Borderline between high-op and TO. I'm pretty sure an ubercharger or mailman can oneshot a god.
Epic Spells. You can make yourself literally immune to all damage, all SR:YES spells, and all the things abominations are immune to. You could also turn yourself into a god I believe and gain everything except SLA abilities.
Bind an army of outsiders. Haven't crunched the numbers but, with enough Pit Fiends or Solars I'm sure you'll succeed, using their wish to counter the god's wish.

[White Blade]

If it has stats it can be killed.

As for killing a god without TO material...
God v.s. You + Ice Assassin, you + ice assassin will always win. This is not TO because you are using the spell as intended.
surprise round 1 shot kill. Borderline between high-op and TO. I'm pretty sure an ubercharger or mailman can oneshot a god.
Epic Spells. You can make yourself literally immune to all damage, all SR:YES spells, and all the things abominations are immune to. You could also turn yourself into a god I believe and gain everything except SLA abilities.
Bind an army of outsiders. Haven't crunched the numbers but, with enough Pit Fiends or Solars I'm sure you'll succeed, using their wish to counter the god's wish.
1. Ice Assassin of who? You? It takes eight hours to cast Ice Assassin. If you give the god eight hours, it can have 960 ice assassins of you. Or of itself. Which is far worse for you.
2. How are you becoming aware of them to gank them through raw damage? How are you delivering it in less than six seconds?
3. No epics, you're level twenty.

[RoboEmperor]

1. Ice Assassin of who? You? It takes eight hours to cast Ice Assassin. If you give the god eight hours, it can have 960 ice assassins of you. Or of itself. Which is far worse for you.

I was assuming they don't know you are coming. Otherwise they snipe you at level 1.

[White Blade]

Woah there buddy.

The Demon-Haunted Earth is billions of years old. The oldest of the Known Gods are less than 2,000 years old.

Are you claiming to know something about my setting that I don't?

No, they cannot.

A TO greater deity of magic has spontaneous auto-Persist-Quicken-Maximized-Silent-Still-Twin Archivist casting, Alter Reality, Divine Recall (spell cast), Divine Spellcasting, Portfolio Sense (magic), and Divine Spellfocus (All Eight Schools). Of course, all they NEED is Alter Reality (Time Stop) to achieve global effects by stacking Alter Realities.


This is pretty much my entire point. Spell cheese in a personal duel between a near-epic wizard and a newborn demigod? Not their problem. Omniscience via fractal ice assassins from the dawn of time? Probably slightly more of their problem.

This is a TO exercise- The other gods aren't intervening. The theoretical limit is pliable on purpose- Perhaps the gods forbid expanding your omnipresent nature to the outer planes? But since the demigod is born in a space on the astral plane directly adjacent to your territory, it doesn't matter.


I was assuming they don't know you are coming. Otherwise they snipe you at level 1.

Ah, see, the standard "We are trying to gank the deity" rule of them having infinite prep time has been reversed. You're the world-conquering master mage who has nigh unlimited time/money resources but not the element of surprise and the fresh born godling is a fresh faced assassin born of your underlings prayers of whom you are not automatically aware.

[Goaty14]

If this thing can literally alter reality, couldn't it just force an alignment change on us to LG, therefore fixing all of our ungrateful commoner's problems are ceasing its need to exist?


Yeah the untouched plant is a problem.
It still depends on the optimization levels the table is playing with though. And how much cheese is acceptable in this particular exercise. "Everything is allowed short of Pun-Pun" as indicated in the OP means a lot of cheese is on the table.

Other methods-
Wish for a scroll of that spell (meaning material components are already included)
Tainted Sorceror's Blood Component

Wishing for a scroll of the spell could have other consequences at the DMs discretion (but then again, he can alter reality away negative effects)
Pretty sure Tainted Sorcerer is evil, this guy has 20 outsider levels, and has the domains Good, Liberation, and War. How this demigod is interacting with evil mortals is pretty much out of the question.

[gooddragon1]

All it takes to do the pun-pun exploit is shapechange (and maybe a lizard familiar?). Why the deities haven't already done it is the question. Nuclear deterrent?

[icefractal]

Can we just agree the NI solution is "somebody gets erased from history, also Ice Assassin"? Because I don't see any new development happening there.

Non-NI is more interesting territory, and I don't think it's totally impossible. If you interpret DCFS as maintaining the feat's origin, then Heroics doesn't stack and the deity can't go full Mailman. They still can have any and all buffs up permanently, so it's tricky to find something that hurts them.

I still think artifacts might be a factor, as one of the few things the Wizard could leverage their greater prep time into. Annulus would do it if there's a way to make the deity count as psionic.

[White Blade]

If this thing can literally alter reality, couldn't it just force an alignment change on us to LG, therefore fixing all of our ungrateful commoner's problems are ceasing its need to exist?



Wishing for a scroll of the spell could have other consequences at the DMs discretion (but then again, he can alter reality away negative effects)
Pretty sure Tainted Sorcerer is evil, this guy has 20 outsider levels, and has the domains Good, Liberation, and War. How this demigod is interacting with evil mortals is pretty much out of the question.
I mean, she theoretically could force an alignment shift, but that would take her getting the drop on you and hit you with an appropriate spell (Sanctify the Wicked?).

Also I think the other suggestions were for the wizard, not the god.

All it takes to do the pun-pun exploit is shapechange (and maybe a lizard familiar?). Why the deities haven't already done it is the question. Nuclear deterrent?
Well, since I'm making it up as I go along, let's suppose the first Pun-Pun ruled the multiverse for a few billion years before it killed itself from ennui but it's contingent epic spells set up to obliterate any of its uppity godlings who try to replicate its ascent are still in place.

[shaikujin]

I mean, she theoretically could force an alignment shift, but that would take her getting the drop on you and hit you with an appropriate spell (Sanctify the Wicked?).

Also I think the other suggestions were for the wizard, not the god.

Well, since I'm making it up as I go along, let's suppose the first Pun-Pun ruled the multiverse for a few billion years before it killed itself from ennui but it's contingent epic spells set up to obliterate any of its uppity godlings who try to replicate its ascent are still in place.

Yeah, the Teleport Through Time scroll and Tainted Sorceror level is for the Wizard to deal with the material component.

Also wishing for a magic item is a safe wish and has stated rules.

The Deity's Alter Reality ability does not need to deal with material components at all.



I might have a solution for a wizard to win in this particular scenario, even if we take into account that the deity can use automatic actions to trigger Alter Reality and get omnipotence + her own Ni spells/Ice Assassins etc. I'll see if I can get it to work tomorrow.

[shaikujin]

Attempt 1:
Dvizzard, the Dvati twins Wizard/Tainted Sorceror.
Necropolitan (so that I can abuse Taint rules to boost CL really high) and God Blooded template.

Get a wish loop going, say by using Solars.

Wish for 2 scrolls of Ice Assassin (pairs) of himself. They get the "Twins" ability and all 3 pairs can telepathically communicate with each of the other 6. (or just switch to some other minions with perm Telepathic Bonds)

IceAssassins #3of6 and #4of6 will hide in a safehouse. Their job is to constantly communicate with Dvizzard to understand what's happening and meticulously record everything.

IA #5of6 and #6of6 will do a daily Time Hop a month into the future to find out the events of the past month from the other pair of IA. They then Teleport through Time back to their original timeline and report all events from the future to Dvizzard.

Dvizzard now knows about the Deity, and has a month for preparations (such as buffing his initiative to guarantee acting before the Deity), scouting and sending his IAs for Timehops to gather more info.

He procures a pair of Spellbladed tuned to an orb spell (whichever the deity is not immune to). Slightly more than 24 hours before the Deity is born, use wish loop to repeated cast the spell every round.

Bounce them from 1 spellblade to the other every round (24 hours equals 14,400 orbs).

2 rounds before the deity is born (or earlier depending on scouting), use wish to go the Deity's birth place and ready an action to bounce the 14,400 orbs into the Deity when she appears.

As soon as the Deity is born, (probably before initiative is rolled), she is hit with 14,400 orbs. That should do enough damage to overwhelm her even if each orb do only 1 damage.

[Nifft]

A TO greater deity of magic ... is irrelevant to this thread.

What is relevant:
- One demigod as specified in the OP
- Mortal magic

The idea that you've got god-rails which run on larger god-rails (and it's railroads all the way down) so no mortals can ever get away with anything cool is ... kinda anti-creative.

[White Blade]

... is irrelevant to this thread.

What is relevant:
- One demigod as specified in the OP
- Mortal magic

The idea that you've got god-rails which run on larger god-rails (and it's railroads all the way down) so no mortals can ever get away with anything cool is ... kinda anti-creative.

Yes... But I was responding to a statement about what "the gods" could do. The gods are not in anyway intervening to stop the mortal wizard.

[ryu]

Yes... But I was responding to a statement about what "the gods" could do. The gods are not in anyway intervening to stop the mortal wizard.

Also the vindication is real. I feel so smug right now.

[gawwy]

Also the vindication is real. I feel so smug right now.

Not sure why red fel called it early.

Yes if your dm lets you.

The DM, OP in this case has allowed it so you can.

A more challenging question would be how high a divine rank god can you beat in this set up assuming nothing else changes.

I get the feeling that the number is ludicrously high as long as the god dosent spawn in its own planar realm or whatever the actual term for that is

[Nifft]

A more challenging question would be how high a divine rank god can you beat in this set up assuming nothing else changes.

Not sure if Divine Rank is the right axis of difficulty -- I suspect you could kill some poorly-optimized gods who lack Alter Reality (etc.) but have a higher DR.

[gawwy]

I do have to ask how the divati wizards are detecting the deity?

Sounds like if the deity use timestop as its first action and then into superior invisibility and mindblank then proceded to programmed amnesia the worshipers into forgetting she existed the wizard would have trouble knowing when it was born to execute the assassination.

Divination is not my area of expertise tho so i suspect im about to learn of some really good divination spells.

[ryu]

I do have to ask how the divati wizards are detecting the deity?

Sounds like if the deity use timestop as its first action and then into superior invisibility and mindblank then proceded to programmed amnesia the worshipers into forgetting she existed the wizard would have trouble knowing when it was born to execute the assassination.

Divination is not my area of expertise tho so i suspect im about to learn of some really good divination spells.

Your worshipers forget you exist you almost certainly either lose power or simply cease to exist. It's the same as killing them really.

[White Blade]

Your worshipers forget you exist you almost certainly either lose power or simply cease to exist. It's the same as killing them really.

Not necessarily. It's entirely possible that the prayers simply accrue power to the deity but are never spent - So, they give power directly to you.

But I'm reluctant to state this tactic doesn't work, since Shaikujin has put forward a build that didn't require omniscience. I think it could work, maybe better if the ice assassin scribes were of someone else? With mind blank medallions or whatever of course.


Not sure why red fel called it early.

Yes if your dm lets you.

The DM, OP in this case has allowed it so you can.

A more challenging question would be how high a divine rank god can you beat in this set up assuming nothing else changes.

I get the feeling that the number is ludicrously high as long as the god dosent spawn in its own planar realm or whatever the actual term for that is

With these specific stats, I'm not sure. With the same building blocks (feat number, stat array [different order], outsider level) you can win at this divine rank with the time domain, quicken spell-like ability and supreme Initiative (plus Alter Reality). Uses Time Stop at the absolute first moment of existence, teleports through time to the moment you were conceived, undoes you existence.

[shaikujin]

I do have to ask how the divati wizards are detecting the deity?

Sounds like if the deity use timestop as its first action and then into superior invisibility and mindblank then proceded to programmed amnesia the worshipers into forgetting she existed the wizard would have trouble knowing when it was born to execute the assassination.

Divination is not my area of expertise tho so i suspect im about to learn of some really good divination spells.

I'm sort of bypassing divination spells by actually sending someone into the future to find out exactly what will be happening.

Dvizzard the Dvati Wizard sets up an Ice Assassin as a monitoring center who he keeps in constant contact with.

Dvizzard will tell his Ice Assassin named "#3of6" where he is, what he sees, what is happening.

Examples (written out more fully so that posters have a better idea what it's about. In reality they would use short codewords)
- heading to west gate. Closed. Should have gone to East gate.
- gamblers in common room playing a dice game. Rolls are 15, 11, 6
- woman materialized suddenly from dimension door, spellcaster.
- hostile! She attacks with fireba...argghhhh


#3of6 will note down Dvizzard's words (or last words). He will now cast scry, hindsight, legend lore etc to find out more on what happened to Dvizzard (or even better equip them with a pair of Aspect Mirrors so that #3of6 sees what is happening all the time)
Legend lore will probably reveal that Dvizzard was killed by a Deity and give further info which even Dvizzard didn't know.

When #5of6 next appears from using his MAS Timehop, he learned what has happened from #3of6 (last words were blah blah. Blah, then arggghhh. That was on Tuesday 8 pm. Lost contact since).
He teleports through time to report to Dvizzard.

Dvizzard now instructs #5of6 to Timehop to Tuesday 7 pm and find out exactly what happened (using scry) while staying out of sight, then report back.

If #5of6 doesn't report back, Dvizzard will know something has happened. He will then create more Ice Assassins or summons and send them to the future to find out what has happened.

That would ultimately allow Dvizzard to find out what happened exactly, who killed him, where, at exactly what time. So he starts preparing for that event.

Main tactic is to kill the deity before she gets a chance to act at all. If this Deity is not newly born, or as long as she can get in a single free action, she will use her automatic action ability to trigger Alter Reality as a free action, then start her Timestop loop to use the same tricks spell casters employ (planeshift to fast time plane, cast buff spells, wish for equipment up to WBL, DCFS, summon/create an army, jumplomancy other deities)

In short, I am considering how I would optimize the Deity to keep alive and gain power.

Assuming Dvizzard kills the Deity successfully (ie before she has a chance to start her Alter Reality loop), the future will now change.

Ultimately, the ultimate report from #3of6 will be
"You prepared 2 spellsblades, wished yourself to x location at x time, and killed the deity using x tactic"



Also some notes, attempt 1 is a simple version.

A more complex version includes a tactic to carry around a Planar Bubble linked to the Corcodant Domain of the Outlands. Specifically the location which shuts down a Deity's divine salient powers.

Ice Assasins also inherited Dvizzard's God Blooded template. But yes, some other minions might server better to reduce risk of the Deity accidentally being redirected to the Dvizzard's IAs. Perhaps the observer contructs mentioned in the Teleport Through Time articles.

More complex version will involve multiple groups of these IA teams spread around different planes. Also involves using Extract Gift she that they can see/hear directly using Dvizzard's eyes/ears.

Others will be used to observe events happening around the world, spy on people. All will report their findings to the messengers using Time Hop/Teleport through Time. Will also have multiple groups of messengers.

The IAs will also do constant headcount/verification checks to verify the network of IAs is not compromisd.

In case it's asked, Dvizzard and his IAs are using Mental Pinnacle or power stones or Psionic tattoos to manifest Psionic Powers.



Part 2: Deity's revenge -
A spontaneously born DVR 2 Deity will still suddenly gain hundreds to thousands of followers. Some of them could feasibly be high level TO wizards preparing for their deity's birth and be protecting/defending her at her birth place when she is born.

A DVR2 Deity also automatically has a godly realm.
Similar to characters using Genesis cheese, an optimized Deity might be able to declare that location comes with whatever traits he wants. Rules mention that different DVR ranks allows Deities to make changes to different types of traits, but doesn't say that the realm cannot have say "Dead Magic" trait for anyone other than the Deity. (Deities are not affected by impeded magic in their own godly realm). Another trait is "Static" under morphic, where non natives cannot affect natives.
Deity declares the area where she is born as her godly realm.

[ben-zayb]

Not necessarily. It's entirely possible that the prayers simply accrue power to the deity but are never spent - So, they give power directly to you.

But I'm reluctant to state this tactic doesn't work, since Shaikujin has put forward a build that didn't require omniscience. I think it could work, maybe better if the ice assassin scribes were of someone else? With mind blank medallions or whatever of course.



With these specific stats, I'm not sure. With the same building blocks (feat number, stat array [different order], outsider level) you can win at this divine rank with the time domain, quicken spell-like ability and supreme Initiative (plus Alter Reality). Uses Time Stop at the absolute first moment of existence, teleports through time to the moment you were conceived, undoes you existence.
Still no, because getting Epic feats preepic is trivially easy at TO levels. The other side certainly have those same feats, with as many if not more resources, and with way too much headstart. The other side also has Spell Stowaway (Time Stop / Wish / <insert powerful spell here>), so mimicking those spells via Alter Reality means nothing.

[gawwy]

Pretty sure you lose to deity as you are passively watching for it to kill you.

Deity is born. It casts timestop.

I assume it has max ranks in knowladge local (your kingdom) and knows a looot about you as if it had a portfolio it would be (killing you).

Anyway it makes the free knowladge check to find out who you are. Then it uses alter realty to make an ice assassin of you (no material components) which it then asks what your plans are. (It retains your memories). Then tells it to teleport through time back and stop you from being born.

As you dont exist yet you cant stop it. As you never exist your ice assassins cant tell you that the god was born. Not that they could know it had been born as it takes no actions in the present.

If youve planned for this it knows. Because your ice assassin tells it. It loops timestop and makes ice assassins (updating its understanding of your plans) until it fails because you dont exist and never did.

[ben-zayb]

Pretty sure you lose to deity as you are passively watching for it to kill you.

Deity is born. It casts timestop.It rolls for initiative, then loses. Rocket tag happens. Deity gets killed.

[shaikujin]

Ah, you are right, yes there's a gap in Dvizzard's defence. Ok attempt 2.

Same wizard, but instead of Dvati, he's a Kaorti native to the Far Realms. His parent were born there, his ancestors were born there.

Due to time not existing in the Far Realms, it's not possible to go to a time before Dvizzard was born.

Would this work?

[gawwy]

Ah, you are right, yes there's a gap in Dvizzard's defence. Ok attempt 2.

Same wizard, but instead of Dvati, he's a Kaorti native to the Far Realms. His parent were born there, his ancestors were born there.

Due to time not existing in the Far Realms, it's not possible to go to a time before Dvizzard was born.

Would this work?

Possibly but whats stopping the deity from forming in that realm making it also unkillable via time travel.


Also what the hell does it mean time does not exist? Can nothing age or move? If things can move time exists. If time dosent exist things cant move.

The guy who posted rolls initive dies should probably back up why thats the case.


Edit- even if the deity isnt afforded the ability to choose its plane of birth all that happens is when you planeshift out of the fsr realm ro start your checking the future loop theres ni ice assassins of you x years from now waiting to gank you.

So i think you may have trapped yourself in the far realm with no time travel schenanigans available to you.

[shaikujin]

Possibly but whats stopping the deity from forming in that realm making it also unkillable via time travel.


Also what the hell does it mean time does not exist? Can nothing age or move? If things can move time exists. If time dosent exist things cant move.

The guy who posted rolls initive dies should probably back up why thats the case.


Edit- even if the deity isnt afforded the ability to choose its plane of birth all that happens is when you planeshift out of the fsr realm ro start your checking the future loop theres ni ice assassins of you x years from now waiting to gank you.

So i think you may have trapped yourself in the far realm with no time travel schenanigans available to you.

The OP states that the Deity is formed on the Astral Plane. (I was trying to see if I can use planar shenanigans if I was the Deity). So in this particular exercise, the Deity doesn't form in the Far Realms.

Time and Gravity do not exist in the Far Realms. It's really weird and far removed from the normal timestream/planes. Creatures there exists beyond time itself and in all timestreams simultaneously. Movement there is weird as well.

By my understanding, Time Travel won't work until the wizard's IAs move out of the Far Realm.

Of course, the wizard doesn't need to move out of the plane to start gathering info, only his IAs do. Moving out of the Far Realms does indeed make the wizard vulnerable. So that means that if the paranoid wizard wants to go exploring, he'll be using Astral Projection coupled with a Planar Bubble linked to the Far Realms (or a personal demiplane with similar time traits).

Both the deity and the wizard will try to use Time Travel to kill each other.

However, now that the deity has no way to use Time Travel to kill the wizard, only the wizard can still use this tactic to send IAs to ambush the Deity (ready an action 1 round before Deity is born).

[gawwy]

If the deity cannot use time travel to get to the wizard how do the ice assassins relay info to him backward in time?

Edit-if time dosent exist in the far realm what happens when you plane shift there? Do you arrive everywhen?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Edit-if time dosent exist in the far realm what happens when you plane shift there? Do you arrive everywhen?

Don't think too hard about it. The Far Realm is just a truly alien place that warps everyone creature of the Great Wheel that enters.

[gawwy]

Don't think too hard about it. The Far Realm is just a truly alien place that warps everyone creature of the Great Wheel that enters.

Usually i wouldnt but someone just suggested a TO solution that involves it and timetravel so the whole whatever is most benificial approach to me isnt really kosher.

[Nifft]

I think the Astral plane also has some kind of wonky time mechanics associated, but I'm not sure if they're particularly helpful in this case.

[prototype00]

So just to get back to the original question and parameters for a moment:

For a freshly born Demigod with stats as laid out in the book and non-maxed Spellcraft (no magic domains, portfolios are not in any way related) who basically can cast "Miracle" once per round, vs an on the cusp of epic Wizard with full spell knowledge and itemisation and just one step removed from TO level of optimisation.

Who wins?

It's not the demigod, I'll tell you.

[Mordaedil]

So just to get back to the original question and parameters for a moment:

For a freshly born Demigod with stats as laid out in the book and non-maxed Spellcraft (no magic domains, portfolios are not in any way related) who basically can cast "Miracle" once per round, vs an on the cusp of epic Wizard with full spell knowledge and itemisation and just one step removed from TO level of optimisation.

Who wins?

It's not the demigod, I'll tell you.
Which one is the demigod?

[ben-zayb]

The guy who posted rolls initive dies should probably back up why thats the case.Because TO is rocket tag. Even if Supreme Initiative is goalshifted in, using it itself costs a stamdrad action.

Or do you mean I have to reenumerate the plethora of ways someone way weaker than the playground's Punchbag be beat?

[prototype00]

Which one is the demigod?

Not quite sure I understand the question?

[shaikujin]

If the deity cannot use time travel to get to the wizard how do the ice assassins relay info to him backward in time?

Edit-if time dosent exist in the far realm what happens when you plane shift there? Do you arrive everywhen?

Looks like the implications for using Far Realms are wider than I thought.

Because time does not exist for the wizard, the IAs can't/don't seem to need to use Teleport through Time to go back in Time to report. In fact, they don't seem to be needed.
The scribes can just use Interplanar Telepathic Bond (persisted using Timeless Magic planar trait) to report what they have seen.

This would also mean that the wizard, will have instant knowledge of all events his scribes will tell him in the past/present/future of non-Far Realms planes.

Creatures who go to the Far Realms would also exit the normal time stream and would exist both before and after time's reign.

Non natives will be subjected to the plane's maddening trait. They could become warped (example given is having eyes sprouting from one's palms), could relive a hundred childhood memories simultaneously (examples given are that of the traveler beginning to speak backwards, or that where their parents are secret far realm wights), Non natives have to make constant DC20 Will saves to stave off insanity.

[Mordaedil]

Not quite sure I understand the question?

Sorry, just a bit of dry humour. A level 20 wizard after all, is about as powerful as a demi-god. The higher rank the deity is however, the less significant the wizard is.

Though I find it odd that people favor the wizard when there's nobody saying the demigod also isn't a 20th level wizard.

[shaikujin]

Though I find it odd that people favor the wizard when there's nobody saying the demigod also isn't a 20th level wizard.

For the record then - Yes, this Deity is like a supercharged lvl 20 Wizard.

The Alter Reality ability by itself gives her access to all spells with a standard action (and possibly even even free actions). Allows all spells to be made permanent. No XP/components required.



I'm also not exactly favoring the Wizard unconditionally. Just that there is a chance against the Deity with the restrictions presented in the OP.

[Crake]

Does no punpun literally just mean no punpun and that's the end of the limits? Because there's plenty more broken builds out there that surpass punpun.

Also, are infinite loops allowed? Because infinite loops are the only way you're gonna be able to claim omnipotence over an infinite plane. No matter how nigh infinite you get yourself, until you actually hit an infinite loop there's always going to be an infinitely sized area of the astral plane that you don't have pseudo omnipotence over where the deity can manifest outside of your knowledge.

[White Blade]

Because TO is rocket tag. Even if Supreme Initiative is goalshifted in, using it itself costs a stamdrad action.

Or do you mean I have to reenumerate the plethora of ways someone way weaker than the playground's Punchbag be beat?

No it does not. You would have to read the rules in the most deliberately obtuse way possible to come to that conclusion. Like a computer program wouldn't read it like that. It clearly states the criteria of having the ability if there are multiple deities for determining. That's like saying you have to use a standard action to use extra domain. It's nutty.

[ben-zayb]

No it does not. You would have to read the rules in the most deliberately obtuse way possible to come to that conclusion. Like a computer program wouldn't read it like that. It clearly states the criteria of having the ability if there are multiple deities for determining. That's like saying you have to use a standard action to use extra domain. It's nutty.

Actually, on the contrary, the computer would exactly read it like that--that is, as the rules and syntax dictate, no matter how its human users feel about the returning outcome. However, as a DM, you can houserule new abilities or new rulesets, of course depending on your gaming table., which is kinda like what Pun-Pun does.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Supreme Initiative is a free action, not a standard. Unless SDA are called out as beings standards somewhere and I missed it

[White Blade]

Actually, on the contrary, the computer would exactly read it like that--that is, as the rules and syntax dictate, no matter how its human users feel about the returning outcome. However, as a DM, you can houserule new abilities or new rulesets, of course depending on your gaming table., which is kinda like what Pun-Pun does.

The ability does not have a use clause, nor a designate, touch, or similar. It simply states,
The deity goes first in the initiative order, no matter what its initiative result is or what initiative result anyone else in an encounter or battle has.

And, to clarify further, the notes include it based on "having". It's not an action at all - It's an ontological fact. You roll the dice, and then you go first.

[ben-zayb]

The ability does not have a use clause, nor a designate, touch, or similar. It simply states,

And, to clarify further, the notes include it based on "having". It's not an action at all - It's an ontological fact. You roll the dice, and then you go first.
And...still not what the Rules as Written say. The RAW already says using a SDA requires a standard action unless otherwise noted, so it doesn't have to state in every single SDA the kind of action required to use the ability. Again, you can house rule it to what your table wants, but please try to understand that some people here don't bring their houserules when discussing Theoretical Optimization exercises

[Drakevarg]

And...still not what the Rules as Written say. The RAW already says using a SDA requires a standard action unless otherwise noted, so it doesn't have to state in every single SDA the kind of action required to use the ability. Again, you can house rule it to what your table wants, but please try to understand that some people here don't bring their houserules when discussing Theoretical Optimization exercises

What the hell would be the point of an ability that lets you always go first if you already have to take an action to turn it on?

[White Blade]

And...still not what the Rules as Written say. The RAW already says using a SDA requires a standard action unless otherwise noted, so it doesn't have to state in every single SDA the kind of action required to use the ability. Again, you can house rule it to what your table wants, but please try to understand that some people here don't bring their houserules when discussing Theoretical Optimization exercises
But that's just it - There is no use clause in the text of the SDA. In fact, it's clear that you can't not use it.

Use is defined as operating something. Supreme Initiative is not used, indeed, you go first whether you like it or not. Show me where it says, "when activated" or similar. Your reading is deliberately obtuse and clearly false.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The ability does not have a use clause, nor a designate, touch, or similar. It simply states,

And, to clarify further, the notes include it based on "having". It's not an action at all - It's an ontological fact. You roll the dice, and then you go first.

The ability is called out as extraordinary: all extraordinary abilities are free actions unless otherwise stated. That is the strictest RAW on the topic and, as ben-zayb said, SDA's are also called out as being standards unless otherwise stated.

Supreme Initiative was doubtlessly meant to be a state (like Improved Initiative) as opposed to an action but they goofed and forgot to say that.


But that's just it - There is no use clause in the text of the SDA. In fact, it's clear that you can't not use it.

Use is defined as operating something. Supreme Initiative is not used, indeed, you go first whether you like it or not. Show me where it says, "when activated" or similar. Your reading is deliberately obtuse and clearly false.

You use it when you roll initiative. It does not need to say it since that is literally the meaning of the English word "use." This is an utterly silly rule and clearly an oversight on the part of the authors, but it is RAW.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, reading the text of Supreme Initiative, it only makes sense as a passive ability. It makes no sense as costing as a standard action.

RAW, there might be some wiggle room saying it costs a standard action, but RAI is clear that it takes no action and simply happens.

[Crake]

And...still not what the Rules as Written say. The RAW already says using a SDA requires a standard action unless otherwise noted, so it doesn't have to state in every single SDA the kind of action required to use the ability. Again, you can house rule it to what your table wants, but please try to understand that some people here don't bring their houserules when discussing Theoretical Optimization exercises

"Unless otherwise noted" You said it yourself. By the very fact that the ability does not state "when used" or any other similar thing, it is noting that the ability does not require an action.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Yeah, reading the text of Supreme Initiative, it only makes sense as a passive ability. It makes no sense as costing as a standard action.

RAW, there might be some wiggle room saying it costs a standard action, but RAI is clear that it takes no action and simply happens.

I agree that RAI is that it simply works, no questions asked. But, as the forums often tout, when it comes to discussions like this looking at RAW is important.

[JNAProductions]

I agree that RAI is that it simply works, no questions asked. But, as the forums often tout, when it comes to discussions like this looking at RAW is important.

I think, in this case, since RAI is clear enough that you'll find basically no DM who'd rule otherwise, it should be used.

Plus, I'm not even sure it IS a standard action by RAW. There's arguments to be made on both ends, though I'm siding on RAI being RAW as well.

[ben-zayb]

I'm not generally fond of spoonfeeding, but okay. So your point is via the Notes section, it only references "having the ability to gain the benefits". Like so:

Notes
Determine initiative normally among any beings who don’t have this ability, placing them in order after the deity.
Well, let's look at what RAW has to say with regards these notes:

Notes
Additional facts about the ability that may be helpful when using the ability in play.

[AnimeTheCat]

And...still not what the Rules as Written say. The RAW already says using a SDA requires a standard action unless otherwise noted, so it doesn't have to state in every single SDA the kind of action required to use the ability. Again, you can house rule it to what your table wants, but please try to understand that some people here don't bring their houserules when discussing Theoretical Optimization exercises

Supreme Initiative is an Extraodrinary Ability which has the following rules (Bolded for Emphasis):


Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)
Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field.

Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.

Because of the description of Supreme Initative and Extraordinary Abilities, it's safe to say that you don't need to "Turn On" the SDA.

[ben-zayb]

Supreme Initiative is an Extraodrinary Ability which has the following rules (Bolded for Emphasis):



Because of the description of Supreme Initative and Extraordinary Abilities, it's safe to say that you don't need to "Turn On" the SDA.
Please take the time to look at Salient Divine Abilities amd rules about specific vs general before making posts like this

[White Blade]

I'm not generally fond of spoonfeeding, but okay. So your point is via the Notes section, it only references "having the ability to gain the benefits". Like so:

Well, let's look at what RAW has to say with regards these notes:

Using "in play", clearly speaking in an out of game context. Unless you're saying that the players must take a standard action free from the character.

The dictionary definition of use requires action, since at no point can the character take action to effect its ability to always start first in the initiative order, it cannot "use" the ability.

[ben-zayb]

Using "in play", clearly speaking in an out of game context. Unless you're saying that the players must take a standard action free from the character.

The dictionary definition of use requires action, since at no point can the character take action to effect its ability to always start first in the initiative order, it cannot "use" the ability.

Fun fact: D&D's usage of the word "action" is different from the dictionary definition.

Indulge me for a second, here. Search SRD for all RAW references of the words "use", " using", or "usage", and report to me how many of those actually use an action. That better be a nice percentage.

Hint: CTRL+F " Deflect Arrows" from the SDA page itself, then check out the feat itself.

EDIT: I seriously need to sleep now, folks. Might take me at least 18 hours to post again.

[AnimeTheCat]

Please take the time to look at Salient Divine Abilities amd rules about specific vs general before making posts like this

I did. I know that:


Using Salient Divine Abilities
Using a salient divine ability is a standard action unless otherwise noted in the ability description. Using a salient divine ability does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

But I also know that:

Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. When Monster Manual says a template changes a creature's type, it is stipulated to be correct and that template does indeed change the creature's type; a rule in Savage Species which disagrees with that primary source is incorrect. Only an official errata file can overrule a primary source.

So following the very rule that you stated, the players handbook (Where the Extraordinary Ability is described) is the primary source which means it is referenced and takes prescidence in this situation. No errata exists that refutes this.

So, the logic trains goes as thus:
1) SDA is a standard action unless otherwise noted.
2) Supreme Initiative is an EX ability
3) PHB says EX abilities are not an action unless specifically noted
4) Supreme Initiative (ex) is not specifically noted to be an action
5) Supreme Initiative (ex) is not an action

[ZamielVanWeber]

So, the logic trains goes as thus:
1) SDA is a standard action unless otherwise noted.
2) Supreme Initiative is an EX ability
3) PHB says EX abilities are not an action unless specifically noted
4) Supreme Initiative (ex) is not specifically noted to be an action
5) Supreme Initiative (ex) is not an action

Error in your logic: the SDA general rules say otherwise and are more specific than the PHB general rules on ex abilities so they would stand over the PHB's.

[Drakevarg]

Error in your logic: the SDA general rules say otherwise and are more specific than the PHB general rules on ex abilities so they would stand over the PHB's.

I'm not so sure that's accurate. Not all SDAs are extraordinary abilities (indeed most aren't) so in this instance an SDA which is an extraordinary ability is a more specific condition than an SDA in general.

[AnimeTheCat]

Error in your logic: the SDA general rules say otherwise and are more specific than the PHB general rules on ex abilities so they would stand over the PHB's.


I'm not so sure that's accurate. Not all SDAs are extraordinary abilities (indeed most aren't) so in this instance an SDA which is an extraordinary ability is a more specific condition than an SDA in general.

Right. I think I counted 4 SDAs that are labled as ex abilities. That seems more specific than the SDA description. In fact, it's a modification to the norm which innately makes it specific. Additionally, I was arguing less about "Specific vs General" as that isn't what the problem is. I was arguing "Primary vs Secondary" when it comes to information source.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Right. I think I counted 4 SDAs that are labled as ex abilities. That seems more specific than the SDA description. In fact, it's a modification to the norm which innately makes it specific. Additionally, I was arguing less about "Specific vs General" as that isn't what the problem is. I was arguing "Primary vs Secondary" when it comes to information source.

Wouldn't then the primary be Monster Manual, which calls them out as a free action?

[AnimeTheCat]

Wouldn't then the primary be Monster Manual, which calls them out as a free action?

You're right, MM. Still the primary source for Extraordinary Abilities rather than the SDA description.

[ZamielVanWeber]

You're right, MM. Still the primary source for Extraordinary Abilities rather than the SDA description.

Even going with your interpretation we would run into the problem where the god would need to take an action. I vote this thread just uses the clear intention of it simply works.

[AnimeTheCat]

Even going with your interpretation we would run into the problem where the god would need to take an action. I vote this thread just uses the clear intention of it simply works.

that's the thing though. Extraordinary Abilities are called out as not requiring an action. They aren't listed as a free action or anything like that so the god doesn't need to take an action as there is no action to take.

[White Blade]

Fun fact: D&D's usage of the word "action" is different from the dictionary definition.

Indulge me for a second, here. Search SRD for all RAW references of the words "use", " using", or "usage", and report to me how many of those actually use an action. That better be a nice percentage.

Hint: CTRL+F " Deflect Arrows" from the SDA page itself, then check out the feat itself.

EDIT: I seriously need to sleep now, folks. Might take me at least 18 hours to post again.

Although I haven't the time to waste doing such a thing, I will happily admit that you are right if you can find me a usage of the word use that doesn't implie volition on the part of the character. For example, you might think that Spot or Listen skill use would apply, but in fact opptitive language is used even for passive checks "can make" in both instances. A cursory search yields up no reasonable options.

You really want for this to be divine energy resistance which has a "can choose" opening so you can show off your knowledge of the technical flaws of SDAs, but it isn't. Supreme Initiative is not used, activated, designated, can, may, or so forth. It is a trait with an effect which cannot be used except to restore your place in the initiative order by refocusing.

[ben-zayb]

that's the thing though. Extraordinary Abilities are called out as not requiring an action. They aren't listed as a free action or anything like that so the god doesn't need to take an action as there is no action to take.
You mean as not usually requiring an action, which is why it has the "unless otherwise noted" applied. SDA's source doesn't have to overrule anything, because such a caveat already exists to make allowance for things like that.
Where you fail at is thinking that SDA rule gets applied first before the Ex rule. Considering it's the more specific rule than the latter, it gets applied last (with its own caveat of unless otherwise noted). Supreme Initiative never addresses this, so it doesn't get the SDA rule's exception.


Although I haven't the time to waste doing such a thing, I will happily admit that you are right if you can find me a usage of the word use that doesn't implie volition on the part of the character. For example, you might think that Spot or Listen skill use would apply, but in fact opptitive language is used even for passive checks "can make" in both instances. A cursory search yields up no reasonable options.

You really want for this to be divine energy resistance which has a "can choose" opening so you can show off your knowledge of the technical flaws of SDAs, but it isn't. Supreme Initiative is not used, activated, designated, can, may, or so forth. It is a trait with an effect which cannot be used except to restore your place in the initiative order by refocusing.
OK, so your response to demonstrable application of such word in D&D terms is still "but my dictionary!" Supreme Initiative has been stated by the Notes section, by RAW, to have a usage clause; no idea where you are getting the idea that the term was used out-of-character, when it clearly refers to in-game rules. Fun fact: in-play doesn't have to refer to something outside the game.


Again, nothing is preventing you to houserule away and shift the goalpost again for this challenge if you want to--heck, that makes for a more challenging opponent (in that we now have to use one more contingent spell to get the same results as before). Just make sure to have it cleared up for people who came here looking for a pure RAW TO discussion.

[Drakevarg]

Where you fail at is thinking that SDA rule gets applied first before the Ex rule. Considering it's the more specific rule than the latter, it gets applied last (with its own caveat of unless otherwise noted). Supreme Initiative never addresses this, so it doesn't get the SDA rule's exception.

What makes it more specific? You don't see a list that says "Extraordinary Abilities (this one, this one, and this one are Salient Divine Abilities)." You see a list that says "Salient Divine Abilities (this one, this one, and this one are Extraordinary Abilities." The SDAs which are extraordinary abilities are cited as a subset of the SDAs in general, not the other way around.

[White Blade]

OK, so your response to demonstrable application of such word in D&D terms is still "but my dictionary!" Supreme Initiative has been stated by the Notes section, by RAW, to have a usage clause; no idea where you are getting the idea that the term was used out-of-character, when it clearly refers to in-game rules. Fun fact: in-play doesn't have to refer to something outside the game.


Again, nothing is preventing you to houserule away and shift the goalpost again for this challenge if you want to--heck, that makes for a more challenging opponent (in that we now have to use one more contingent spell to get the same results as before). Just make sure to have it cleared up for people who came here looking for a pure RAW TO discussion.
I'm not sure my dictionary clutching is relevant. You have yet to show that use works in the way you think it does in any context in the world.

It's like contending that a character "uses" touch of Golden Ice or a person "uses" their skin. It's not the way people talk or write, nor is it how the dictionary defines it. You're transferring meaning from a discussion of notes "using the ability in play," where I think the meaning is clearly out of character since it says "may be helpful" and wound enemy states it does not work on one spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, or divine ability. No one would contend that would be helpful to the character. But it is obvious that it would be helpful to a DM. Your reading is unnatural. It exists to be as obnoxious as possible.

[Crake]

I'm not sure my dictionary clutching is relevant. You have yet to show that use works in the way you think it does in any context in the world.

It's like contending that a character "uses" touch of Golden Ice or a person "uses" their skin. It's not the way people talk or write, nor is it how the dictionary defines it. You're transferring meaning from a discussion of notes "using the ability in play," where I think the meaning is clearly out of character since it says "may be helpful" and wound enemy states it does not work on one spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, or divine ability. No one would contend that would be helpful to the character. But it is obvious that it would be helpful to a DM. Your reading is unnatural. It exists to be as obnoxious as possible.

You realise you're feeding an obvious troll, right? It's so obviously clear how supreme initiative works, that the only explanation that someone is misinterpreting it is if they're doing it on purpose to be contrarian. You're derailing your own thread :smalltongue:

[CIDE]

As it's me in the role I'm not actually trying to be a ****. If there were issues that were strong enough to spawn a deity specifically to deal with me then it was out of my own ignorance (somehow despite divinitation magic). That said the OP said "she". I'd be going the diplomatic route to team up with said deity to fix the not-so-apparent issues with my leadership. I can definitely maximize the hell out of diplomacy rolls and such. Ultimate goal of course is waifu here.