Half-Casters

[Drakevarg]

At the moment, my current plan for my new E6 campaign is a flat no-casters, magic being a thing mortals can only access through dealings with spirits, never through their own power. Party won't be total Muggles, since I gave them the option of starting play with one supernatural ability or artifact custom to them, and there will be opportunities to expand on that. Plus, incantations.

However, when considering the appeal of figures like Baba Yaga or other folkloric practitioners of witchcraft, they often make use of both ritualistic magic and a limited affinity for magic that is usually more thematic or unsual than the frequently utilitarian approach full casters get in D&D. So I've been considering the idea of allowing, through dealings with the right spirits, access to half-casting classes. Their spells are relatively limited and easy to keep track of, but they open a lot of doors in terms of builds and interesting gameplay.

Now, there are I believe four half-casters in the books I own: Paladin, Ranger, Hexblade, and Spellthief. Spellthief I'm a bit iffy on, as its the only one without its own spell list, drawing instead from the Wizard/Sorcerer list. But given its thematic role of gaining power by stealing it off of other dabblers in the arcane, I think it might still fit.

Anyway, my main question is: particularly within the context of E6 and with the exclusion of any other casting classes, how worthwhile would these half-casters be for my game, and how much would their presence interfere with the occult feel I'm attempting to create?

[ATHATH]

Do Psychic Rogues, Psychic Warriors, and/or Bards count? Would the Phrenic and Half-Fey templates work for you?

Why not just have them start out as mundane classes, then multiclass later into spellcasting classes? Heck, why not let them play full-casters anyway? The PCs are supposed to be unique/rare/special; why can't one of your PCs be one of the best Warlocks/Healers/Warmages/Beguilers/Dread Necromancers/whatever in the world (if you're really worried, require that your players "trade in" their starting artifact/supernatural ability if they want to start the game as a spellcasting class)? Refluff the source of their power to be external, of course. E6 will limit much of their spellcasting ability anyway- why limit options?

[Nifft]

Paladin and Ranger are half-casters in 5e, where they start casting spells at 2nd level.

In 3.x, they've got a caster level that's half their class level, but in all other respects they're significantly worse than merely half-casting.

======

Regarding spirits: there's no reason Vancian magic can't be pacts & promises with spirits / demons / entities from beyond.

Maybe that's what daily spell preparation is: a ritual sacrifice to each entity whose power you may borrow over the next day. Then you just "complete the ritual" and call down the thunder. That's compatible with regular D&D magic, especially Wizard magic.

[Kayblis]

The whole point of E6 is having a game world without magic abuse while still having full-casters and such. Restricting it to non-casters AND E6 seems overkill. If you're going to outright ban magic, there's no real point in keeping the E6 theme - sure, number bloat still happens without magic to some extent, but it's not even half as bad as the usual game.

Also, Paladins and Rangers only get casting of 1st level spells by level 4, can only cast 1~2 spells per day by level 6 and have a CL of half their level. This isn't half-casting, this is a consolation prize. In E6 specially their casting is even worse thanks to never ever getting 2nd level spells. You could call the Bard a half-casting class in E6, since he gets at least 2nd level spells there. I believe ATHATH's suggestion of trading their 1st level artifact or supernatural ability for the right to use such classes is a good idea.

[JBarca]

ITT: Full casters are a requirement for fun in DnD.


I disagree entirely with refluffing the full casters and allowing them. Drakevarg said they don't like the utilitarian nature of the classes, not the fluff. Say the Wizard gets her powers from a Devil. Great. She's still throwing around ~15 spells in a day by 6th level, which is more than enough to make it hard for the players to feel they're in a world without much magic. It won't seem special, it was seem normal. Even at 2nd level they can toss out two spells each encounter (counting Cantrips, of course).

I think, given the feel you're aiming for, this is a solid idea. I ran an approximately E6 game in a low-magic setting once. It was a Gestalt game and I allowed characters to take full casting classes, but it cost them one of their "tracks" in the Gestalt.

Drakevarg: The half-casters will be worthwhile, especially the ones with utility spells like the Ranger. They'll bring a spell or two per day in the mid game, after the players have realized how limited spells are. It will be a big deal the first time a PC casts a spell, and could lead to some really fun adventures/in-party discussion as people was to exploit this new "wizard" or hunt the "witch" or what have you, however it's handled. It'll be special. I say go for it.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, half-casters are probably fine. Very special in a world like this but with sharp limitations on their power. Particularly cantrips allow them to do cool magical stuff, but it's way below the mundane options in power generally (aside from Prestidigitation) so that doesn't change how the world works. It's something for caster-geared players to go for so magic is around even if it isn't that powerful and is kinda restricted. 4th level is about right so it's out from most NPCs' reach, making caster NPCs special indeed.

[Crake]

The whole point of E6 is having a game world without magic abuse while still having full-casters and such. Restricting it to non-casters AND E6 seems overkill. If you're going to outright ban magic, there's no real point in keeping the E6 theme - sure, number bloat still happens without magic to some extent, but it's not even half as bad as the usual game.

Also, Paladins and Rangers only get casting of 1st level spells by level 4, can only cast 1~2 spells per day by level 6 and have a CL of half their level. This isn't half-casting, this is a consolation prize. In E6 specially their casting is even worse thanks to never ever getting 2nd level spells. You could call the Bard a half-casting class in E6, since he gets at least 2nd level spells there. I believe ATHATH's suggestion of trading their 1st level artifact or supernatural ability for the right to use such classes is a good idea.

It is exactly half casting. Half caster level, and half maximum spell level. 3 divided by 2 is 1.5, rounded down to 1. 9 divided by 2 is 4.5, rounded down to 4. Paladins and rangers are half casting. Bards and other such classes that end with 6th level spells are 2/3rds casters, not half casters.

@OP: I'm currently running a very similar game, except that I also removed rangers/paladins, and other divine based classes for in world reasons. I don't suspect it would have made a big difference in terms of mechanics, but having any magic at all is a big shift in flavour, even if it's only 1st level spells. Magic goes from being this big, long ordeal for even minor achievements, to something that can be done with a flick of the wrist. The second the players get access to that kind of magic, that will be the instant the wonder and mystery of it will disappear.

[Drakevarg]

I think I'm just going to start a policy of flatly ignoring posts that conclude "your basic premise is dumb and wrong."


I disagree entirely with refluffing the full casters and allowing them. Drakevarg said they don't like the utilitarian nature of the classes, not the fluff. Say the Wizard gets her powers from a Devil. Great. She's still throwing around ~15 spells in a day by 6th level, which is more than enough to make it hard for the players to feel they're in a world without much magic. It won't seem special, it was seem normal. Even at 2nd level they can toss out two spells each encounter (counting Cantrips, of course).

Exactly right.


Drakevarg: The half-casters will be worthwhile, especially the ones with utility spells like the Ranger. They'll bring a spell or two per day in the mid game, after the players have realized how limited spells are. It will be a big deal the first time a PC casts a spell, and could lead to some really fun adventures/in-party discussion as people was to exploit this new "wizard" or hunt the "witch" or what have you, however it's handled. It'll be special. I say go for it.

This is more or less what I'm hoping, plus allowing the PCs to do it means its fair if the occasional NPC does it.


Yeah, half-casters are probably fine. Very special in a world like this but with sharp limitations on their power. Particularly cantrips allow them to do cool magical stuff, but it's way below the mundane options in power generally (aside from Prestidigitation) so that doesn't change how the world works. It's something for caster-geared players to go for so magic is around even if it isn't that powerful and is kinda restricted. 4th level is about right so it's out from most NPCs' reach, making caster NPCs special indeed.

Yeah, and most people would be limited to 1st level spells, though I'd also allow casting to be expanded by prestige classes since I'm gonna have optional gestalting once we hit "epic." (I.e., the period after level 6 where every "level" is a bonus feat instead). By that point, though, they're world-class badasses so I think it's forgivable if they can do what the commonfolk would consider miraculous.


@OP: I'm currently running a very similar game, except that I also removed rangers/paladins, and other divine based classes for in world reasons. I don't suspect it would have made a big difference in terms of mechanics, but having any magic at all is a big shift in flavour, even if it's only 1st level spells. Magic goes from being this big, long ordeal for even minor achievements, to something that can be done with a flick of the wrist. The second the players get access to that kind of magic, that will be the instant the wonder and mystery of it will disappear.

To be fair, magic is at least commonplace enough in my setting that SLAs and such are still viable through templates and the occasional artifact. The main advantage someone with actual spells would get over somebody who just found a haunted lute or something would be versatility and control. Powerful tools, of course, but hardly trivializing given that at 6th level they'll still only be casting one or two spells a day.

[Nifft]

I think I'm just going to start a policy of flatly ignoring posts that conclude "your basic premise is dumb and wrong."

Me: "Here's how you could fit X into your premise, if you're so inclined."

You: "Stop telling me I'm dumb and wrong!"

Me ... backs away slowly.

[Drakevarg]

Me: "Here's how you could fit X into your premise, if you're so inclined."

You: "Stop telling me I'm dumb and wrong!"

Me ... backs away slowly.


Regarding spirits: there's no reason Vancian magic can't be pacts & promises with spirits / demons / entities from beyond.

Maybe that's what daily spell preparation is: a ritual sacrifice to each entity whose power you may borrow over the next day. Then you just "complete the ritual" and call down the thunder. That's compatible with regular D&D magic, especially Wizard magic.

Drakevarg said they don't like the utilitarian nature of the classes, not the fluff. Say the Wizard gets her powers from a Devil. Great. She's still throwing around ~15 spells in a day by 6th level, which is more than enough to make it hard for the players to feel they're in a world without much magic. It won't seem special, it was seem normal. Even at 2nd level they can toss out two spells each encounter (counting Cantrips, of course).

If I ask a particular question, don't reply with the answer to a different one.

[Anxe]

I've found the occult feeling is more dependent on the setting than the classes that are played.

I ran a campaign where almost no one was a caster and it still felt like a high magic campaign because the world surrounding them was high magic.

I ran a separate campaign that had a very occult feel in how I presented the challenges, but the players had a fairly standard party of casters and other folks. That one felt far more dangerous and occult because the only real source of magic for the players was themselves. Full casting certainly didn't inhibit that feeling (if that's what you're going for).

As you've said to others, you're not going to bring full casting classes in, and that's fine. I think that's good, but it shouldn't be the only thing you do. It's your responsibility as the DM to make everything else in the campaign world fit that low-magic occult feeling that you want. Having the mechanics back it up is extra. It shouldn't be the only thing you're doing.

[Kayblis]

It is exactly half casting. Half caster level, and half maximum spell level. 3 divided by 2 is 1.5, rounded down to 1. 9 divided by 2 is 4.5, rounded down to 4. Paladins and rangers are half casting. Bards and other such classes that end with 6th level spells are 2/3rds casters, not half casters.

I was talking about E6, don't pretend you didn't notice. The classes known as half-casters get the shaft when you put the level cap far from one of their checkpoints. In E6 a Specialist Wizard(not a Focused one) can have 15 spells per day while a Ranger has 2. If you count level 0 spells, it's 18 vs 2. And you don't get them as a Ranger until level 4.

To OP, giving your characters supernatural abilities by level 1 actually makes them MORE magic than allowing them to play as Rangers/Paladins. Just have that in mind.

[Drakevarg]

To OP, giving your characters supernatural abilities by level 1 actually makes them MORE magic than allowing them to play as Rangers/Paladins. Just have that in mind.

Yes and no. While its open-endedness is ripe for abuse, the abilities I've given them are fairly restrictive but can be incredibly useful in proper conditions. If you're curious, the three who took special abilities chose:

1) An enchanted shamisen that lets them enthrall anyone who hears it. Similar to the bard ability, except it works as long as they keep playing, applies to anyone in earshot who fails their save, and doesn't exclude allies. They can also get more bard-ish powers later, but that's a matter that will need to be handled case-by-case. OTOH, the lute is self-aware and may follow it's own agenda.

2) A dagger that will bring the owner back from the dead, but requires that they use it to murder someone in cold blood (that is, for no other reason than to satisfy the dagger, killing in self-defense or killing someone you already wanted dead doesn't count) within 24 hours or have their resurrection "revoked."

3) The ability to have their soul leave their body while they sleep and interact with the spirit world. Potentially the most powerful ability by a wide margin, except a) they don't have complete control as to where in the spirit world they wake up, b) they're alone, and c) if either their spirit or physical body is destroyed while doing this, they die.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

By 6th level those classes will only have 1st level spell slots, but from 1st level each of those classes can freely use wands of any spells on their class spell list. So it really depends more on item availability than anything else whether allowing those classes runs afoul of the feel you're going for. Since you're the one in control of what items can be obtained in the game, I'd say go for it, especially since it adds more potential for later rewards. A Paladin or Ranger who finds a Wand of Rhino's Rush (possibly flavored differently) would be able to hit a lot harder when needed, until it runs out. A Hexblade could acquire an Eternal Wand of Hound of Doom (but it's an obsidian hound figurine) as a reward for a particularly difficult mission or as part of a deal brokered with a powerful entity, but he would need to be at least 4th level to use it.

[ATHATH]

Yes and no. While its open-endedness is ripe for abuse, the abilities I've given them are fairly restrictive but can be incredibly useful in proper conditions. If you're curious, the three who took special abilities chose:

1) An enchanted shamisen that lets them enthrall anyone who hears it. Similar to the bard ability, except it works as long as they keep playing, applies to anyone in earshot who fails their save, and doesn't exclude allies. They can also get more bard-ish powers later, but that's a matter that will need to be handled case-by-case. OTOH, the lute is self-aware and may follow it's own agenda.

2) A dagger that will bring the owner back from the dead, but requires that they use it to murder someone in cold blood (that is, for no other reason than to satisfy the dagger, killing in self-defense or killing someone you already wanted dead doesn't count) within 24 hours or have their resurrection "revoked."

3) The ability to have their soul leave their body while they sleep and interact with the spirit world. Potentially the most powerful ability by a wide margin, except a) they don't have complete control as to where in the spirit world they wake up, b) they're alone, and c) if either their spirit or physical body is destroyed while doing this, they die.
I'm gonna comment on each of these artifacts, if you don't mind.

1) ... Why not just let them be a Bard? Just say that their spells and Bardic Music come from the power of the lute, not their own innate power (maybe have them take the Divine Bard archetype as well).

2) Nice. It's basically a "get out of TPK semi-free card", especially since you probably don't have resurrection magic in your setting. Does the dagger need to be on your person when you die, or just in your possession? What happens if you die while you still haven't murdered someone (but before your 24 hrs. are up)? In what state do you come back (1 HP, full HP, 0 HP, etc.)? How long does it take for you to get resurrected? Expect your players to inquire about these things.

3) So, one player gets to have a private session on their own every time the party rests/sleeps, and the other players are left with nothing to do but twiddle their thumbs while one player gets all of the attention? I suggest revising this item- maybe have it only trigger on Sundays or when the full moon is out or something, but let the entire party come along for the ride.

[Drakevarg]

1) ... Why not just let them be a Bard? Just say that their spells and Bardic Music come from the power of the lute, not their own innate power (maybe have them take the Divine Bard archetype as well).

I thought about it, but Bard has a bunch of powers I don't want them to have.


2) Nice. It's basically a "get out of TPK semi-free card", especially since you probably don't have resurrection magic in your setting. Does the dagger need to be on your person when you die, or just in your possession? What happens if you die while you still haven't murdered someone (but before your 24 hrs. are up)? In what state do you come back (1 HP, full HP, 0 HP, etc.)? How long does it take for you to get resurrected? Expect your players to inquire about these things.

a) As long as it's yours, it counts. Of course since you need the dagger to complete the murder, someone else having it makes paying the toll harder.
b) If you die again before you've paid, you die. You haven't paid for the last favor yet, the dagger isn't going to give you another.
c) You come back fully restored. As for how long it takes, I don't think I ever actually declared. I think it was intended to be "as soon as you aren't being observed," and of course the 24 hour time limit is from the time of resurrection, not from time of death.


3) So, one player gets to have a private session on their own every time the party rests/sleeps, and the other players are left with nothing to do but twiddle their thumbs while one player gets all of the attention? I suggest revising this item- maybe have it only trigger on Sundays or when the full moon is out or something, but let the entire party come along for the ride.

Eh, not exactly. Only when he tries to, otherwise he just sits in his body and dreams. It's more like a dangerous combination of astral projection and contact other plane. Sure, he could hypothetically waste everyone's time by jaunting around in the spirit realm every night, but he probably wouldn't want to seeing as how it's incredibly dangerous and he has no backup.

[ATHATH]

Eh, not exactly. Only when he tries to, otherwise he just sits in his body and dreams. It's more like a dangerous combination of astral projection and contact other plane. Sure, he could hypothetically waste everyone's time by jaunting around in the spirit realm every night, but he probably wouldn't want to seeing as how it's incredibly dangerous and he has no backup.
So your argument is that, since he should never use it because it's ludicrously dangerous, it shouldn't be a problem/boring for the other players? Then what's the point of having the ability?

And what Bard abilities do you find to be a problem? Perhaps they could be traded out with ACFs and/or variants (I'm sure there's a spell-less Bard out there somewhere).

[Drakevarg]

So your argument is that, since he should never use it because it's ludicrously dangerous, it shouldn't be a problem/boring for the other players? Then what's the point of having the ability?

He shouldn't use it casually because it's ludicrously dangerous. Used properly he can basically Diplomance is way out of virtually any problem by just visiting the spiritual plane and convincing the animistic embodiment of the problem to leave them alone. Used improperly he goes insane, dies, or dies and then goes insane.


And what Bard abilities do you find to be a problem? Perhaps they could be traded out with ACFs and/or variants (I'm sure there's a spell-less Bard out there somewhere).

It's mostly the spells. If there's a noncaster Bard variant out there, I've never seen it and I'm reasonably certain it's not from any of my books, which is the only place I take content from.

[Drakevarg]

Alright, had what may or may not be a better idea. Instead of letting players take half-caster classes, allow them to take half-caster prestige classes that can be entered without prior spellcasting ability (as well as other PrCs that have supernatural traits).

This approach has two main advantages:
1) Since most of them can't be taken until level 5-6, they'll be gestalted (E6 "epic level" approach, basically) allowing them to be earned as story rewards rather than forcing the players to take a casting class as early as possible to get the full benefit.
2) Since half-casting PrCs are shorter than full classes, they get their spells a lot faster. A level 6 half-casting PrC usually has at least a few 3rd level spells by that point, where a base class is only ever going to get level 1 spells.
3) It's a much easier list of classes to keep track of (rather than snowballing into like two dozen caster PrCs).

Classes I think would apply:
Assassin
Blackguard
Vigilante
Suel Arcanamach
Consecrated Harrier
Holy Liberator
Pious Templar
Temple Raider of Olidammara
Dragon Devotee
Disciple of Thrym
Hoardstealer

Plus a few others that are more "supernatural class features" than actual spellcasting. And sort of half-cases like Scion of Tem-Et-Nu, Talon of Tiamat, and Abolisher.

[JBarca]

I actually really like that idea. It makes hitting "Epic" really meaningful and fun, with a great "capstone." Great idea!

Rather than look through those specific classes for potential problems, I'd just advise you to keep an eye on the specific spell lists that those classes get, paying special attention to any early access spells that might see a character with spells you don't want to see in this style of game.

[ATHATH]

Don't forget Trapsmith, Chameleon, Taker, etc.

[Drakevarg]

Don't forget Trapsmith, Chameleon, Taker, etc.

See sig. Not on the list.

[Sagetim]

Alright, had what may or may not be a better idea. Instead of letting players take half-caster classes, allow them to take half-caster prestige classes that can be entered without prior spellcasting ability (as well as other PrCs that have supernatural traits).

This approach has two main advantages:
1) Since most of them can't be taken until level 5-6, they'll be gestalted (E6 "epic level" approach, basically) allowing them to be earned as story rewards rather than forcing the players to take a casting class as early as possible to get the full benefit.
2) Since half-casting PrCs are shorter than full classes, they get their spells a lot faster. A level 6 half-casting PrC usually has at least a few 3rd level spells by that point, where a base class is only ever going to get level 1 spells.
3) It's a much easier list of classes to keep track of (rather than snowballing into like two dozen caster PrCs).

Classes I think would apply:
Assassin
Blackguard
Vigilante
Suel Arcanamach
Consecrated Harrier
Holy Liberator
Pious Templar
Temple Raider of Olidammara
Dragon Devotee
Disciple of Thrym
Hoardstealer

Plus a few others that are more "supernatural class features" than actual spellcasting. And sort of half-cases like Scion of Tem-Et-Nu, Talon of Tiamat, and Abolisher.

Alright, I will be on topic for the rest of my post here, but first I just have to say: Boooo, no full casters, booo. Not a fan of dnd without magic.

That said, lets dig into this idea and how to make sure the logic of it is consistent so that the players feel like it makes sense for the setting instead of feeling cheated out of being able to play the various caster classes they might think they should be otherwise entitled to.

To start with, if you went the route originally suggested, then you're probably going to run into some blowback from the players about already being gimped by e6, and that half casters suck at magic. Because they do. So if we move away from that, and have players pick from more mundane classes that they can bolt supernatural abilities onto by making deals, fulfilling requirements set out by gods, or selling souls to demons (or what have you) then their supernatural capabilities become linked to their roleplaying and actions within the world instead of being directly linked to their class and build.

Following up on this idea, you might want to let them have a few relevant knowledge skills as class skills, since most mundane classes don't get those knowledge skills normally, and if the players are limited to those classes, it wouldn't be very fun to basically have all inroads to power either blocked or hobbled. Knowledge The Planes, Knowledge Religion, and Knowledge Arcana are what I'm talking about. Since I imagine those would be skills involved in ritual checks just to get to the point that you could try negotiating, threatening, or otherwise convincing supernatural entities to impart their power unto you (you know, diplomacy, intimidate, bluff, straight bribery).

In doing this, someone could play a fighter and get the paladin class abilities and some spellcasting bolted onto their character by being a devout follower of the god of justice, steady in word and deed and adhereing to the code of conduct laid out for paladins in the player's handbook. Of course, the upside is that if they do falter, they still have Fighter abilities to fallback on, especially if they need to go on a tough quest to receive atonement (as the number of clerics who can cast such a spell sound like they would be between 0 and approaching -1.

This is the kind of situation that you can let players have their prayers be answered if they have been faithful to the god they are praying to. While it's not going to be as reliable as a player playing a cleric casting cure wounds spells, devoutness of faith isn't usually reflected in character levels in most dnd settings. If divine miracles (spells) are instead a result of devout worship and faith, then it encourages players to engage with the world and the setting if they want to get those benefits.

Furthermore, bolting on half casting prestige classes like that will probably help to hammer home that consistent spells are the realm of people who are pushing the limits of mortal ability.

I suppose what I'm saying is: This could work out, but you'll have to remember to be careful and conservative in your encounters. Not having reliable healing, not having access to buff spells, and not having the regular amount of magic items are all factors in 3.5 that make the game increasingly deadly for player characters. Ease into the fights you set up, be willing to reward non combat xp, and remember to follow your own rules for how npcs will react to capabilities that involve magic.

You might find it helpful to allow for retraining to be utilized later on, While I haven't actually used those rules as a player or GM, they might provide your players with enough flexibility to experiment with character builds and see where they want to wind up with their characters after they've hit the level cap. After all, 9 ranks of perform (swedish polka) might seem like a great plan to the rogue early on, but after so many sessions of it, the joke may well wear thin and the rogue might be jonesing for a more usable skill to have invested in.

Edit: oh right, Retraining is in player's handbook 2, nevermind.

[Drakevarg]

To start with, if you went the route originally suggested, then you're probably going to run into some blowback from the players about already being gimped by e6, and that half casters suck at magic. Because they do. So if we move away from that, and have players pick from more mundane classes that they can bolt supernatural abilities onto by making deals, fulfilling requirements set out by gods, or selling souls to demons (or what have you) then their supernatural capabilities become linked to their roleplaying and actions within the world instead of being directly linked to their class and build.

Furthermore, bolting on half casting prestige classes like that will probably help to hammer home that consistent spells are the realm of people who are pushing the limits of mortal ability.

Pretty much sums up my line of reasoning.


Following up on this idea, you might want to let them have a few relevant knowledge skills as class skills, since most mundane classes don't get those knowledge skills normally, and if the players are limited to those classes, it wouldn't be very fun to basically have all inroads to power either blocked or hobbled. Knowledge The Planes, Knowledge Religion, and Knowledge Arcana are what I'm talking about. Since I imagine those would be skills involved in ritual checks just to get to the point that you could try negotiating, threatening, or otherwise convincing supernatural entities to impart their power unto you (you know, diplomacy, intimidate, bluff, straight bribery).

This part is easy, since I decided to declare all skills class skills. Doing otherwise is too arbitrarily restrictive, especially in E6. Whatever skillset you developed for adventuring/asskicking purposes shouldn't really define your ability to hold a civilian job, or read a book occasionally.


I suppose what I'm saying is: This could work out, but you'll have to remember to be careful and conservative in your encounters. Not having reliable healing, not having access to buff spells, and not having the regular amount of magic items are all factors in 3.5 that make the game increasingly deadly for player characters. Ease into the fights you set up, be willing to reward non combat xp, and remember to follow your own rules for how npcs will react to capabilities that involve magic.

Yeah, I've learned my lesson in that regard. I've run caster-free campaigns before. Seemingly innocent things like DR/Magic can be party-killers. I'm thinking of figuring out some way to make the Heal skill actually restore HP. As for XP, I never track that and I just reward levels at the appropriate story beats. And of course yeah, the average NPC is going to react somewhere between awe and terror at any outright displays of magic.

[Sagetim]

Oh, yeah, you're probably fine then. And if you think dr/magic is bad in 3.5, it can be worse in 5e, where the dmg seems to leave most people with the impression that magic items should be vanishingly rare, if even in the hands of player characters at all. Vampire Spawn (cr 5, resistance to nonmagic physical damage, fast healing), are way more difficult to take out if the party's melee combatants don't have magical weapons, or some means of dealing magic damage.

That tangent aside, if you can get your hands on the book, I'd suggest leafing through the Medieval Player's Guide (Handbook?) it's by Green Ronin publishing and has to do with running a 'more historical' 3.5 game than regular dnd covers. While all of it's contents might not be useful, it has suggestions for running low magic games, a number of base classes they specifically made for the book to mimic historical magical powers more closely (as opposed to basing magic off Jack Vance's Dying Earth series) and introduced like, 3 alternative casting systems in the book that take their own spin on players accessing magic.

While they might not fit the low magic end of things perfectly, the rules provided might be something you can use for bolting on mechanics to allow players to more regularly access their mystical might than slots per day. One of the alternate systems exampled was making pacts with spirits such that you would get a permanent ability to cast a particular spell at a particular caster level by eating a number of full round actions per spell level to do so. Given the mechanics surrounding it, this might work to fit the theme of what you want magic to do in your game (with each casting essentially being composed of entreating the spirit you made a pact with bestowing it's power as per terms and agreements). This system is kind of like crafting a non-slot using wonderous item that, instead of having to hold onto, it's just part of you...and the trade off is a much increased casting time.

One of the other systems provided was Astral Charms, where the character in question learns specific spells as charms that they create by attuning little bits of whatever to astrological forces. This system is like, instead of having spells per day, you can attune so many scrolls to astrological forces per day, an you keep them afterwards (and others can use them...or steal them and use them). The Charms, unlike the Thaumaturgy mentioned above, doesn't cost money to do it, but the higher level spells take much longer between instances of the stars aligning properly. To the point that the book gives the example that some characters of the class that uses Astral Charms will travel the world to get to rare stellar alignments faster than they will show up on his home turf. While this one could provide your players with a stockpile of low level charms, you could also adjust the time between alignments up a bit to help it fit in more with the diminished magical nature of the setting you're running.

The third one is um...hedge magic? I'm not a really big fan of it because it eats xp to use it, basically requiring feats to get particular functions that let you do things ranging from curing diseases to cursing people to altering metals or what have you. I don't remember it well off hand because the nickle and diming nature of it's xp costs always sits poorly with me (5 xp, or 10 xp, every time you use one of the abilities it provides would become a major hassle over time. At least in games that track xp).

I might be misremembering Hedge Magic as including some feats for Alchemy, but whatever. Point is, it's an interesting book with some mechanics worth looking over.

[Drakevarg]

Interesting notions. I'm unlikely to use them directly, but they might be at least worth looking at for ideas.

[Luccan]

When would they be able to access these classes? They'd have to access them by their third character level, or else they won't ever get spells. And they'll only ever have 1st level spells. Plus, those classes all get supernatural abilities on top of spellcasting.

I have two suggestions.

1. Don't use E6. That way if they decide to take a spellcaster class as part of their build when offered, there might actually be a reason to do it. A lack of casters will mean you want to keep away from "level appropriate" monsters most of the time, as they won't have the magical power they need to face them. But this should allow you to use those classes more freely.

2. If you want to use E6: use the Generic Class variants. You can find them in the SRD if you don't have them. The two you'll be using are Expert and Warrior. They don't have unique class abilities, but they have bonus feats that can specifically be traded for other class's abilities at a DMs discretion. This might make it easier to introduce magic at any point you choose: Offer a few low level spells (castable X number of times per day based on level or a stat bonus or something) for a feat. Or allow some more unique supernatural abilities to be built towards. Maybe 0th level spells are more easily obtained and castable more often. And don't go higher than 2nd level spells if you want to keep it from overpowering the game.

Edit: nvm you don't use SRD, but if you use UA then Generic still works.

[Drakevarg]

Did you actually read the thread? I'm using gestalting as E6 "epic levels." They'll be able to take up to six levels in these classes, meaning third level spells.

[Luccan]

Did you actually read the thread? I'm using gestalting as E6 "epic levels." They'll be able to take up to six levels in these classes, meaning third level spells.

Sorry, I skimmed. Hope you got something that works.

[ATHATH]

Thought here: Why are you using D&D as your system to run this with? Shouldn't you use a classless system or something instead?

[Drakevarg]

Thought here: Why are you using D&D as your system to run this with? Shouldn't you use a classless system or something instead?

Because I'm familiar with it and because WoD is suited more towards intrigue than action. I flip between the systems depending on the tone of story I want.

[Eldariel]

Pretty much sums up my line of reasoning.



This part is easy, since I decided to declare all skills class skills. Doing otherwise is too arbitrarily restrictive, especially in E6. Whatever skillset you developed for adventuring/asskicking purposes shouldn't really define your ability to hold a civilian job, or read a book occasionally.



Yeah, I've learned my lesson in that regard. I've run caster-free campaigns before. Seemingly innocent things like DR/Magic can be party-killers. I'm thinking of figuring out some way to make the Heal skill actually restore HP. As for XP, I never track that and I just reward levels at the appropriate story beats. And of course yeah, the average NPC is going to react somewhere between awe and terror at any outright displays of magic.

One alternative to healing is the VP/WP system. My signature features a campaign journal in a world without magic using the variant to great effect - we have also reworked the Heal-skill, though you could also use alchemical items akin to blessed bandages [MiC] for minor healing.

Basically, VP represents minor wounds, luck, etc. Normal damage is dealt to VP. It replenishes quickly, we used natural healing's worth per hour. WP represents real life threatening injury and occurs on criticals, and once VP has run out. They heal slowly if at all and Heal-skill is necessary to stem the bleeding and to even enable natural healing. We added a limb damage system, where each time WP damage is dealt, a bodypart is rolled causing damage to that bodypart signified by significant penalties to rolls involving that part. Repeated damage can even cause bodypart loss. WP damage also forces save vs. system shock (stun). 0 WP you roll Fort-save (DC 15 + damage over 0 WP) and on a successful one are dying, on a failed one are dead.

The only problem is that between SA, PA and company, D&D characters deal a lot of damage. Thus we made VP absorb non-base damage even on a critical to make criticals not insta-deaths. Otherwise PC death is way too common.

The primary advantage is PC damage being mostly superficial (if they win encounters handily) enabling continued adventuring and frequnt encounters without healing. However, when WP damage does occur, it sticks and is severe and takes a long time (and a skilled healer) to heal properly, often forcing adventuring while not in full health. VP barrier generally enables it, but there is always the risk... We also use class defense bonus and expanded mundane craftsmanship option to make up for no magic items.

Oh, if I were starting such a campaign now, I'd rework criticals: nat 20 or exceeding target AC by 5 threatens crit. Exceeding target AC by 10 is an autocrit and a called shot (pick the target you want to hit). Called shot can be attempted otherwise (declared beforehand) but does nothing (no VP damage) on non-crit hit. Improved crit range in weapon lowers crit threat and autocrit AC (Falchion only needs to beat AC+3 and AC+8, or AC+2 and AC+6 with improved crit/multiplication feels too strong) and crit damage multiplier means +5 on crit confirmation roll. This way skill at arms matters for physical injury and the different weapons are still differentiated (in default system, crit multiplier and range end up changed into the same thing).

Our campaign also features characters gaining minor magic. You might be interested in the journal.

EDIT: Woops, added signature to the post.

[Kayblis]

Thought here: Why are you using D&D as your system to run this with? Shouldn't you use a classless system or something instead?

That's a good question for most people that try to play "political intrigue" or "low magic, low fantasy" with D&D. The system is not made for that. If you want to play without magic, you either pick a better system for it or ban 95% of the game like in this case here. Usually "have you tried not playing D&D?" is a scream in the void, but it fits here.

[Eldariel]

That's a good question for most people that try to play "political intrigue" or "low magic, low fantasy" with D&D. The system is not made for that. If you want to play without magic, you either pick a better system for it or ban 95% of the game like in this case here. Usually "have you tried not playing D&D?" is a scream in the void, but it fits here.

I personally find ToB/PoW offer more than enough substance to be games unto themselves even with the supernatural stuff removed, and familiarity is a big factor particularly for long-standing groups. And surprisingly enough, there's a lot of rules in the game for just this kind of a game; they just basically never come up in normal games (everything from forced marching and encumbrance to pathfinding, stemming bleeding and such). It's a very different game but it isn't nearly as bad as one might think - I've found it quite enjoyable in spite of my familiarity and experience with FATE, WoD, GURPS, Exalted, and various further removed systems. Though I wouldn't play it without martial maneuver systems; I find those add the depth to martial combat to make it enjoyable and create easy frameworks for homebrewing and coming up with new techniques on the fly while at it.