Templates at Level 1

[tedcahill2]

I'm giving my players the option to have a LA +1 race or template if they select only T4 or T5 classes. One of my players, a rogue, decided to use the Dark template.

I know that over 10 or even 5 levels, the bonuses granted are pretty tame, but I don't really want to give a level 1 character a +6 to move silently and +8 to hide, or cold resistance 10.

Can anyone see anything particularly problematic about forcing these templates to be leveled out?

What I mean is:
Ability bonuses are gained +1 per level (per attribute) until the template bonus is reached
Skill bonuses are gained at +2 per level (per skill) until the template bonus is reached
Resistance is gained at 5 per 2 levels until the template bonus is reached

So in the case of the Dark template they would have all of the special abilities except that the numeric values would increase with level:
Level 1 +2 Hide/MS
Level 2 +4 Hide/MS, cold res 5
Level 3 +6 Hide/MS
Level 4 +8 Hide, cold res 10

So by level 4 they have fully realized the Dark template.

[Eldariel]

Sure, if you consider that reasonable. A level 1 Rogue who's good at hiding still has many, many restrictions though so it's not as big of a problem as it might first appear.

[chimaeraUndying]

Honestly, Dark creature isn't even that great a LA +1 template. Like, sure, Hide and Move Silently buffs will make the Rogue better at what he's already gonna be good at, but unless all the elemental damage sources the party will be encountering are Cold, the resistance isn't gonna matter much.

Compare the Dark template to something like Pathfinder's Advanced or Monstrous Lycanthrope templates, though, or anything that makes the character Undead &/ Incorporeal. It's really quite tame.

[Inevitability]

Count your blessings, they could've gone with Mineral Warrior or Half-Minotaur. :smalltongue:

[Deadline]

Out of curiosity, why do you think it is a problem in the first place?

What massive imbalance are you anticipating out of this? Is it the skill bonuses? The resistance? The Hide in Plain Sight ability?

Given that you were interested in providing players the opportunity to pick an LA +1 template, what were you expecting them to pick (power-level wise)?

Also, with regards to stealth, keep in mind that 3rd level spellcasters can pick up Invisibility and/or Silence and be an order of magnitude better at stealth than the rogue in question at the same level (without your modifications), with minimal resources invested.

[Celestia]

This seems like an unnecessary nerf to a mundane who's already going to be struggling to be relevant just because they had the gall to pick a mediocre template that synergizes with their terrible class.

[Kayblis]

Why give players a LA+1 template if you're going to complain about average templates? The previously mentioned Mineral Warrior and Half Minotaur or Half Ogre are gamebreakers at low levels, but having a little more Hide or resisting one non-fire element at these levels isn't going to hurt anyone. You're giving those templates to players of Tier 4 and 5 characters so they can compete in the first place.

I understand the fear of big numbers by level 1, but the big numbers in question are not that useful in the first place.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Whisper Gnome (RoS) gets +4 Move Silently and +8 Hide (counting size), and it has no level adjustment at all. Skill bonuses aren't really a huge deal, especially for stealth. Sure, he can sneak around undetected when circumstances permit, but Hide automatically fails if you don't have cover or concealment relative to the creature you're hiding from. If you're counting on darkness or shadowy illumination to conceal you and the opponent has Darkvision or Low-Light Vision, or something mundane like Scent, it doesn't really matter how high your bonus is. Edit: Even if he's able to sneak by, what's the rest of the party doing? His stealth doesn't do much good when Durkon goes clanking by in his full plate.

The cold resistance is negligible, unless they're adventuring in a freezing environment and being able to keep warm is one of the dangers. Otherwise it's not going to come up often enough to really matter, and when it does the player gets to feel special. Nothing wrong with that.

[legomaster00156]

I hope you're taking the potential for multiclassing into account here. Rogue 1/Wizard 19 with a +1 template may actually be better than Wizard 20 with no template.

[Inevitability]

I hope you're taking the potential for multiclassing into account here. Rogue 1/Wizard 19 with a +1 template may actually be better than Wizard 20 with no template.

At level 20, yes. At mid levels especially, you're going to be a spell level behind half of the time, while the template and rogue level are barely doing anything.

Besides, the +1 templates tend to be better for casters anyway.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Primordial half-giant is better for wizards and skill-using rogues, with +4 int/cha, +2 Spellcraft/UMD, powerful build, and at-will invisibility at CL = RHD with a +1 bonus to CL (I'm guessing that works out to 2, because CL = RHD must be at least 1, but it doesn't matter that much).

So yeah, when Dark seems strong, remember: you could be stuck with a totally invisible rogue.

[Nifft]

Primordial half-giant is better for wizards and skill-using rogues, with +4 int/cha, +2 Spellcraft/UMD, powerful build, and at-will invisibility at CL = RHD with a +1 bonus to CL (I'm guessing that works out to 2, because CL = RHD must be at least 1, but it doesn't matter that much).

You can use a template to become a Giant, and then get Primordial Giant, on a standard humanoid to have zero RHD. Then I think the SLA caster level is (0+1) = 1.