Warcaster feat and the Polymorph spell

[Degwerks]

I'm guessing that having Advantage on Con saves for keeping my concentration (from warcaster) won't help me if I polymorph myself into a Giant Ape. Is this correct?

[Easy_Lee]

Ask your DM. It's unclear what happens. Both polymorph and wildshape replace "game statistics," though wildshape lets the druid retain his own mind stats, saving throws, and skills. So it's clear that game statistics include stats, skills, and saving throws. It's not clear whether that includes features.

From what I've seen, most people let druids keep their own features but gain the beast's features as well, such as multiattack or web walker. From my reading, polymorph ought to behave the same way, though it's unclear that retaining features is intended by either.

You might notice a druid has to retain his class features in order to cast spells while wildshaping as per the feature Beast Spells. So, apparently, game statistics do not include features and you get to keep those.

But this is me reading into the text. The developers may not intend any of this, and intent matters to some people.

One more thing: if polymorph is supposed to let you keep your features, I have to wonder why polymorphing monks and barbarians into powerful beasts isn't more popular.

[Lombra]

Our DM rules that once you get polymorphed you do not retain your conscience and act as a normal animal. It's not clear if you can keep concentration up while polymorphed tho, as Easy said, your DM is the most reliable source of ruling in this argument.

[Easy_Lee]

Our DM rules that once you get polymorphed you do not retain your conscience and act as a normal animal.

Well that's interesting, considering polymorphed creatures retain their personality and alignment. So, DMs are very inconsistent about shape-shifting rules. Definitely talk this out with yours.

[Aett_Thorn]

Our DM rules that once you get polymorphed you do not retain your conscience and act as a normal animal. It's not clear if you can keep concentration up while polymorphed tho, as Easy said, your DM is the most reliable source of ruling in this argument.

If this happened, and you were turned into a typical animal/creature, wouldn't you be unable to determine who is friend or foe? How would you figure that out without some of your mental abilities?

[Lombra]

If this happened, and you were turned into a typical animal/creature, wouldn't you be unable to determine who is friend or foe? How would you figure that out without some of your mental abilities?

Well, you don't. Not in our games. Polymorph is mostly used as a debuff/utility spell rather than a buff spell at our table. My character once got turned into a sheep from our bard (for the lolz) and simply behaved as a sheep. I will have to ask my DM if he would allow to keep your memories of when you were polymorphed once you get back.

[Tanarii]

Well that's interesting, considering polymorphed creatures retain their personality and alignment.Yeah. Definitely a house-rule.

OTOH, Personality is a defined thing in 5e. It's 4 very specific motivations pre-defined by the player at character creation: Personality Traits, Ideal, Bond and Flaw.
And your Int becomes 2 for many Beasts. Although not the Ape.

So if you roleplay* Int (which many people do) as well as Personality, you keep some very specific motivations to make your decisions based on, but aren't going to be very smart. If you don't roleplay* Int, your Personality still may not come into play to make decisions on, but your Int may also not come into play mechanically as long as you don't have to make any checks.

(Edit: To be clear, I'm saying Personality may or may not come into making decisions for a Polymorphed character at all, since it's about 4 very specific things.)


So, DMs are very inconsistent about shape-shifting rules. Definitely talk this out with yours.
That's about the shape of it.

--------------
*using roleplay to mean "make decisions based on" not "talky-time" or "funny accents".

[Lombra]

Well that's interesting, considering polymorphed creatures retain their personality and alignment. So, DMs are very inconsistent about shape-shifting rules. Definitely talk this out with yours.

I guess that it could be argued that personality and alignment are not enough to keep the same conscience, for instance, a friendly CG sheep may just be that, a friendly CG sheep. But it is fairly subjective I guess. Anyways, it's not an issue at our table.

Yup, just asked him: you don't remember the events of when you are polymorphed once you turn back, he rules.

[Regulas]

In a pure RAW sense no you don't retain the benefits of Warcaster in Polymorph.

"Game Statistics" Includes feats in addition to saves, skills, ability scores etc.

The only things you keep are your personality (in the literal sense of charasmatic or reserved, fiesty or aggresive) and your alignment (a lawful good character turning into a dumb savage beast won't have an urge to maul people, even if that's normal for that beast).

[Tanarii]

The only things you keep are your personality (in the literal sense of charasmatic or reserved, fiesty or aggresive)Except Personality doesn't mean that in 5e.

For example, a PC wizard that takes their personality straight from the Sage choices might retain:
Personality Trait: I . . . speak . . . slowly . . . when talking . . . to idiots, . . . which . . . almost . . . everyone . . . is . . . compared . . . to me.
Ideal: Knowledge. The path to power and self-improvement is through knowledge.
Bond: I sold my soul for knowledge. I hope to do great deeds and win it back.
Flaw: I speak without really thinking through my words, invariably insulting others.

All those things are retained. Which makes for an interesting character portrayal & decision making, since they are now Int 2 (or Int 6 for an Ape), instead of Int 18. :smallamused:

[Lombra]

Except Personality doesn't mean that in 5e.

For example, a PC wizard that takes their personality straight from the Sage choices might retain:
Personality Trait: I . . . speak . . . slowly . . . when talking . . . to idiots, . . . which . . . almost . . . everyone . . . is . . . compared . . . to me.
Ideal: Knowledge. The path to power and self-improvement is through knowledge.
Bond: I sold my soul for knowledge. I hope to do great deeds and win it back.
Flaw: I speak without really thinking through my words, invariably insulting others.

All those things are retained. Which makes for an interesting character portrayal & decision making, since they are now Int 2 (or Int 6 for an Ape), instead of Int 18. :smallamused:

Personality casually wrote in a spell feels different from "Personality traits" game object... plus in your example all I see is a curious animal, since the polymorphed creature can't speak, but that's just a specific case.

[Easy_Lee]

In a pure RAW sense no you don't retain the benefits of Warcaster in Polymorph.

"Game Statistics" Includes feats in addition to saves, skills, ability scores etc.

The only things you keep are your personality (in the literal sense of charasmatic or reserved, fiesty or aggresive) and your alignment (a lawful good character turning into a dumb savage beast won't have an urge to maul people, even if that's normal for that beast).

Compare to wildshape, which also says you replace game statistics except for the things it specifies. However, the feature Beast Spells let's you cast spells while wildshaped. If you didn't retain your spellcasting feature while wildshaped, then this would be a useless feature. But nowhere does wildshape say that you do or don't retain your spellcasting feature. It just says you can't cast spells until later when you can.

I'm not saying polymorph has to work the same way as wildshape except as specified. I'm just saying that the abilities are unclear. This isn't really a RAW question because the rules don't specify whether game statistics include features (again, wildshape seems to imply that game statistics don't include features, but that doesn't mean polymorph acts the same way).

[tieren]

We've always played it like a trained animal or pet, you know who your friends are and who your enemies are, might even follow some basic commands, but would otherwise act like the beast would.

[Lombra]

My DM would even rule that you can't concentrate while polymorphed. What does an animal know about spells or concentration anyways?

[Sariel Vailo]

I jist read my spell on polymorph more of a debiff uless you use it on your druid

[Lombra]

I jist read my spell on polymorph more of a debiff uless you use it on your druid

Why would casting it on a druid be different?

[Tanarii]

My DM would even rule that you can't concentrate while polymorphed. What does an animal know about spells or concentration anyways?Your DM has made the Transmuter Wizard School feature Shapechanger kinda pointless. Since you pop right out of it. But even if he allowed concentrating on it, it's still kinda pointless turning yourself into something that immediately forgets why it changed into that form.

[Easy_Lee]

Why would casting it on a druid be different?

I think he means wildshape

[Lombra]

Your DM has made the Transmuter Wizard School feature Shapechanger kinda pointless. Since you pop right out of it. But even if he allowed concentrating on it, it's still kinda pointless turning yourself into something that immediately forgets why it changed into that form.

Now that's one bit that we didn't read, that may change his ruling, thanks for bringing it up.

[Regulas]

Compare to wildshape, which also says you replace game statistics except for the things it specifies. However, the feature Beast Spells let's you cast spells while wildshaped. If you didn't retain your spellcasting feature while wildshaped, then this would be a useless feature. But nowhere does wildshape say that you do or don't retain your spellcasting feature. It just says you can't cast spells until later when you can.

I'm not saying polymorph has to work the same way as wildshape except as specified. I'm just saying that the abilities are unclear. This isn't really a RAW question because the rules don't specify whether game statistics include features (again, wildshape seems to imply that game statistics don't include features, but that doesn't mean polymorph acts the same way).

Wild shape says:
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense."

It also says you can't cast spells but can maintain concentration. And then Beast spell later lets you cast again. Note I think roll20 (the first reference that pops up) is missing these lines.



Why would casting it on a druid be different?

Well a hostile druid would technically automatically succeed on their saving throw being a shapeshifter.

[Sariel Vailo]

At level four if your druids out of uses of wild shape you can polymorph them

[Easy_Lee]

Wild shape says:
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense."

It also says you can't cast spells but can maintain concentration. And then Beast spell later lets you cast again. Note I think roll20 (the first reference that pops up) is missing these lines.

Well, there you go regarding wildshaping then. Polymorph still doesn't say, but perhaps we can then presume game statistics are meant to contain features as well, and thus the only things you retain are personality and alignment.

It's still not clear what happens to concentration.

[Potato_Priest]

Well a hostile druid would technically automatically succeed on their saving throw being a shapeshifter.

I don't even think you could use it on a friendly druid, given that it says that "the spell has no effect on a shapechanger".

[Lombra]

Well a hostile druid would technically automatically succeed on their saving throw being a shapeshifter.

I believe that the game refers to the monster type rather than the ability to change shape.

[Tanarii]

I believe that the game refers to the monster type rather than the ability to change shape.
The problem with that theory, and what keeps the entire debate on if Druids are shapechangers alive, is there isn't a monster type "shapechanger".
Edit: Oops. I guess there is a tag 'shapechanger'. Well, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

[Sariel Vailo]

I don't even think you could use it on a friendly druid, given that it says that "the spell has no effect on a shapechanger".

I am reading the spell word for word i will post a quote
"This spell transforms a creature that you can see within range into a new form. An unwilling creature must make a Wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect. A shapechanger automatically succeeds on this saving throw." Now like it says automatically succeeds but on beneficial spell a party member can willingly fail. So by that logic you can target a friendly druid. A non friendly one itd be a waste of a fourth or 9th level spell

[Beelzebubba]

That's about the shape of it.

http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/core/images/smilies/badump.gif

[Sariel Vailo]

Tanarii good use of pun gain inspiration

[Potato_Priest]

I am reading the spell word for word i will post a quote
"This spell transforms a creature that you can see within range into a new form. An unwilling creature must make a Wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect. A shapechanger automatically succeeds on this saving throw." Now like it says automatically succeeds but on beneficial spell a party member can willingly fail. So by that logic you can target a friendly druid. A non friendly one itd be a waste of a fourth or 9th level spell

There must be different editions of the PHB or something, because mine says exactly this:

This spell transforms a creature that you can see within range into a new form. An unwilling creature must make a wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect. The spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points.

[Tanarii]

There must be different editions of the PHB or something, because mine says exactly this:
Doesn't really matter, since it appears that Druids are not shapechangers.

[Potato_Priest]

I believe that the game refers to the monster type rather than the ability to change shape.

Strange, though, that the ancient metallic dragons, despite their own well-known shapechanging ability, would be exempt from effects that work on shapeshifters, since they don't have the shapechanger tag.

[xroads]

I'm guessing that having Advantage on Con saves for keeping my concentration (from warcaster) won't help me if I polymorph myself into a Giant Ape. Is this correct?

Unless I'm missing something (which is entirely possible), it doesn't matter. According to the PHB:


The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature o f its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech.

You can't cast spells. So none of the benefits of warcaster apply.

[Tanarii]

Unless I'm missing something (which is entirely possible), it doesn't matter. According to the PHB:



You can't cast spells. So none of the benefits of warcaster apply.Assuming you cast Polymorph on yourself, you're concentrating on Polymorph. The question is do you get advantage to maintain that concentration on Polymorph if you are hit?

[ThePolarBear]

Assuming you cast Polymorph on yourself, you're concentrating on Polymorph. The question is do you get advantage to maintain that concentration on Polymorph if you are hit?

You no longer have Warcaster, since no beast that i know of has Warcaster as a game statistic.

The concentration part however is interesting.

[Degwerks]

I think I'll stay away from polymorph then and take Banishment instead.

However since I have peoples attention, instead of the polymorph invocation, my next choice I'm wondering if my hexblade warlock (blade pact), would get more mileage/satisfaction from Menacing Hex or Agonizing Blast? Any opinions on this ? I have Eldritch Smite and Thirsting Blade & Improved Pact Weapon already.