Shapeshifting Spell-less druid

[tedcahill2]

If there was a class that used the druid's chassis (except used a barbarians skill points and skills), but had no spells or abilities EXCEPT for the variant shapeshifting druid ACF. That would probably be a tier 5 class right?

I'm letting my players gestalt T4 with a T5 class, and one of them really wants to be a transformer warforged type character, but doesn't want spells or anything. So I thought I'd let him pick a T4 class as a base, and then add in the shapeshifting ACF from the druid. That would be about the same as gestalting with a T5 class right?

[Naez]

Well there's the wildshape ranger from unearthed arcana.

[Dunsparce]

Combine Wild Shape Ranger(Unearthed Arcana variant that loses Combat Style feats for Barbarian's Fast Movement and Druid's Wild Shape[But you can only become Small and Medium animals]) with the Champion of the Wild(Complete Champion variant that gains Bonus feats at levels 4, 8, 11, and 14 instead of spellcasting)

This is the closest I can think of without any homebrew.

[Nifft]

You're talking about the PHB2 Shapeshift variant which uses a Swift action to change into a generic animal-ish form but which lacks all the special attacks & special movement modes, right?

I think you could combo that class feature with the UA Wildshape Ranger (per Naez above) and have a technically legal Shapeshift Ranger. Add in the no-spells version (per Dunsparce above), and it might be what you're looking for.

That would be fairly comparable to a Barbarian -- the Barbarian gets more limited duration on Rage, but has a better weapon and more HP; the Shapeshift Ranger has unlimited use of the +Str mode, but has typically worse weapons when using that form, and the +Str doesn't stack with items or the most common spells (since it's all Enhancement). Shapeshift Ranger can fly at level 5, and they can get a few immunities at higher levels.

Spells like Enlarge Person however do work on the Shapeshift Ranger, so that's a nice potential stacking.

[Grod_The_Giant]

To answer your actual question, yeah, that should be fine. The Shapeshift ACF is decidedly mediocre, and the lack of support makes it hard to optimize.

[tstewt1921]

I'm a huge fan of Master of Many Forms, and not so big on the Shapeshift because it limits your shifting forms.

As far as not having spells, you can just simply not use them, to my knowledge there isn't a good alternate class feature for giving up spells. However you can still take the druidic avenger alternate class feature and give up your companion for some nifty ability.

Since you said gestalt run barbarian on the other side and it's a solid build like that.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder has the Metamorph Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo-alchemist-archetypes/metamorph-alchemist-archetype/) for a spellless shapeshifter concept.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Pathfinder also has a class coming in a month or two called the Shifter that's exactly this

[TheCryingApple]

If there was a class that used the druid's chassis (except used a barbarians skill points and skills), but had no spells or abilities EXCEPT for the variant shapeshifting druid ACF. That would probably be a tier 5 class right?

I'm letting my players gestalt T4 with a T5 class, and one of them really wants to be a transformer warforged type character, but doesn't want spells or anything. So I thought I'd let him pick a T4 class as a base, and then add in the shapeshifting ACF from the druid. That would be about the same as gestalting with a T5 class right?

I was gonna write out a bit of a rant about how that probably would be a little too weak, but in all honesty, I think this should be a fine pseudo-class.

My only question is, what is their other class?
If it is a full BAB class, I fear that they will find that their alternate form would be rather useless for in-combat.

Level 1 until 8, they are using a single natural attack, only 1d6+str damage.

Would I to balance it more as an entire class, I would give the Predator form an additional attack at level 6.
That way, they still have a reason to choose the predator form over the aerial form in combat, and wouldn't feel that their normal form is better for combat anyway.

[tedcahill2]

I love that there's a RAW way to do this with the ranger class, but my player really wants to go barbarian. So I'm going to work up some homebrew magic to help him out.

Thanks for the suggestions though!

[Nifft]

I love that there's a RAW way to do this with the ranger class, but my player really wants to go barbarian. So I'm going to work up some homebrew magic to help him out.

Thanks for the suggestions though!

What level are you playing at?

Would the Bear Warrior PrC work for him? It's all about being a Barbarian who turns into a bear.

[TheCryingApple]

I love that there's a RAW way to do this with the ranger class, but my player really wants to go barbarian. So I'm going to work up some homebrew magic to help him out.

Thanks for the suggestions though!

Its a gestalt game right? Whats the issue with ranger/ barbarian?
With all the Alternate Class Features, ranger might as well be a T5.

Wildshape ranger is a low tier 3.

-Since barbarian already has fast movement, you dont get a double effect from having it twice, so effectively treat WSR as if it didnt have it. Not a huge nerf to WSR, but still.

-Get rid of spells for feats. Spells are a large part of ranger, and turning them in is a solid nerf. Note that these feats are from a limited list, and depending how you rule it, if you dont have a combat style, then they come from an even smaller list.

-Shapeshift vs wildshape, wildshape is better. Shapeshift is infinite use/duration, but it's really only a small buff to stats, and limited flying. The real power of wildshape comes from the ability to gain some of the abilities of the creature you are turning into. Logically, a WSR that takes this ACF would also be limited to small and medium creatures, so honestly after getting the aerial form at level 5, you aren't getting much benefit anymore.

-Barbarians excel at charging, which is why they are T4. Charging is hard when you are limited to one or two natural attacks, and cant use magic weapons. If this is a low magic campaign, then good luck getting above a 1d6+str on those claw attacks.

If you REALLY want to lower it farther, drop the animal companion, and the favored enemies, and the wild empathy, endurance, etc.
Honestly, if they want to be a transformer, they shouldn't be too against dropping wild empathy and the like.

But what you are already sitting on is square in the middle of T5 in my opinion. I think the biggest issue is that at level 1 they will be a powerhouse because of the extra stats. At later levels, not so much.

[TheCryingApple]

Whoops, pressed backspace and double posted

[Dr_Dinosaur]

If they (or you) are willing to drop like $5 on its book, there's a 3rd-party Barbarian archetype for Pathfinder called the Masquerade Reveler that gives them magical masks in place of rage that apply mutations to them like a summoner's eidolon. The archetype has fey fluff even so it's a somewhat "druid-y" shapeshifting Barbarian that keeps its other stuff

[Metahuman1]

This actually makes me wonder something. If you had a Druid, Druid Chassie, Druid Animal Companion, and it had Wildshape and got like, unlimited daily uses of Wild Shape, but this class didn't have any spell casting, what Tier would it be?

[TheCryingApple]

This actually makes me wonder something. If you had a Druid, Druid Chassie, Druid Animal Companion, and it had Wildshape and got like, unlimited daily uses of Wild Shape, but this class didn't have any spell casting, what Tier would it be?

Cryohydra is all a druid needs.

[Psyren]

This actually makes me wonder something. If you had a Druid, Druid Chassie, Druid Animal Companion, and it had Wildshape and got like, unlimited daily uses of Wild Shape, but this class didn't have any spell casting, what Tier would it be?

chassis*

Would probably be T3, certainly no lower than T4 since you could easily equal a strong martial like a Barbarian while also having some sneaking/scouting utility.

[mabriss lethe]

There's also the Primeval prestige class from frostburn.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This actually makes me wonder something. If you had a Druid, Druid Chassie, Druid Animal Companion, and it had Wildshape and got like, unlimited daily uses of Wild Shape, but this class didn't have any spell casting, what Tier would it be?
T4, maybe even T5 up until 5th, at which point you become a very strong 3-- you'd be able to eat face with the best of them, and have plenty of utility in terms of scouting, movement modes, special attacks, stuff like that. Optimization might edge you up into T2. Shapeshifting is probably the second most powerful thing in the game after spellcasting.

[Psyren]

Right, forgot about that - you'd be pretty weak before the shapeshifting came online, so you'd probably want to buff such a character by letting them wildshape earlier than 5th (or 4th, for PF).

Edit: If there were a Hunter archetype that replaced spellcasting, you could combine that with Feral Hunter to get this kind of "wildshape-only, 3/4 BAB" character.

[Nifft]

Right, forgot about that - you'd be pretty weak before the shapeshifting came online

"Shapeshift" is an ACF that gives shapeshifting at level 1.

[Crake]

"Shapeshift" is an ACF that gives shapeshifting at level 1.

They're talking about the theoretical "no spells" druid that uses wildshape.

Remember that wildshaping heals you for a non-trivial amount of health. With swift wild shape (attainable by 9th level since you don't need natural spell) and at-will wildshaping, you would be able to regain your level in hp back every round, which is definitely a decent chunk.

Not quite as powerful as a divine minion's ability to wildshape as a freeaction repeatedly in the same round to completely recover their hp of course :smalltongue:

[Nifft]

They're talking about the theoretical "no spells" druid that uses wildshape.

Then they're off-topic, this is the OP:


If there was a class that used the druid's chassis (except used a barbarians skill points and skills), but had no spells or abilities EXCEPT for the variant shapeshifting druid ACF. That would probably be a tier 5 class right?

I'm letting my players gestalt T4 with a T5 class, and one of them really wants to be a transformer warforged type character, but doesn't want spells or anything. So I thought I'd let him pick a T4 class as a base, and then add in the shapeshifting ACF from the druid. That would be about the same as gestalting with a T5 class right?

Emphasis mine.

[Psyren]

Then they're off-topic, this is the OP:



Emphasis mine.

I was responding to Grod's post, not the OP's. Where's that ACF from anyway?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I was responding to Grod's post, not the OP's. Where's that ACF from anyway?
PHB2. And the OP already took their ideas to a new thread, I think.

[Thurbane]

Pathfinder also has a class coming in a month or two called the Shifter that's exactly this

Sounds like PF has even more splatbook bloat than 3.5 did.

How many base classes are there in PF these days?

I mean, not that choice is a bad thing, but in every second thread I see PF has a bunch of new base classes.

[TheCryingApple]

"Shapeshift" is an ACF that gives shapeshifting at level 1.

Using that ACF would drop it to a T4 from T3 or T2 even.
We already stated that wildshape would be unlimited use, so unless shapeshifting provides something more to compensate, its benefits are pretty weak.

[Goaty14]

I'm a huge fan of Master of Many Forms, and not so big on the Shapeshift because it limits your shifting forms.

As far as not having spells, you can just simply not use them, to my knowledge there isn't a good alternate class feature for giving up spells. However you can still take the druidic avenger alternate class feature and give up your companion for some nifty ability.

Since you said gestalt run barbarian on the other side and it's a solid build like that.

I love it too, but MoMF is T3 (Due to Many Forms [pun not intended] and +1 WS use per class level)

Maybe a homebrew overlooking the +1 WS per Class Level, which would either make it T4 or T2, depending on your chosen forms and optimization (Savage Species, I know, has a feat that allows you to use supernatural abilities in combat for a DC 19 Will save, no save outside of combat)

[Psyren]

PHB2. And the OP already took their ideas to a new thread, I think.

Thanks. Looking at it, the forms are weak and the bonuses don't stack with gear (enhancement.)


Sounds like PF has even more splatbook bloat than 3.5 did.

How many base classes are there in PF these days?

I mean, not that choice is a bad thing, but in every second thread I see PF has a bunch of new base classes.

Eh, PF only caught up to 3.5's base class count fairly recently. Also, "bloat" implies there's no reason for those classes to exist, yet every one has its own thematic niche even before we get to archetypes. 3.P is the best of both worlds of course.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Thanks. Looking at it, the forms are weak and the bonuses don't stack with gear (enhancement.)
And even if not for that, I don't think it's compatible with things like Wilding Clasps and other stuff that makes Wild Shape better. I really like the idea, but the execution is Monk-level awkward. Still, it's a nice way to weaken the Druid while keeping the thematics in place.


Eh, PF only caught up to 3.5's base class count fairly recently. Also, "bloat" implies there's no reason for those classes to exist, yet every one has its own thematic niche even before we get to archetypes. 3.P is the best of both worlds of course.
Not to mention that I think the average PF base class is higher quality than the average 3.5 class.