What can a level 20 wizard actually do?

[Human Paragon 3]

If you imagine a schrodinger level 20 wizard that has whatever spells you need them to, what can they actually do?

Can they teleport an entire castle to the moon, for example? What's the craziest thing that's within their reach?

[Galactkaktus]

Whatever the dm allows the wish spell to do.

[suplee215]

RAW I think they can turn a rock into the a star with true polymorph, completely destroying the entire world for the 1 second the star exists (it ends when you yourself die). just double check and no "object into object" but you can turn a creature into an object. it depends on what is "an object" though.

[KorvinStarmast]

As to what a wish spell can do for you, it can turn you into a baseball park food group.
(Go back not quite 40 years, to an ad campaign for a famous hot dog brand, Oscar Meyer)

We'd found a ring of three wishes, and the Thief rolled highest that day for loot so he got first pick.
He decided to conserve his wishes, and wanted time to prepare.

Two game sessions later (After he'd wished his Dex to 18 and the DM granted it) we weren't adventuring: we were sitting in the tavern, discussing which of two rumors to follow for our next adventure.
IRL, we had the TV on in the background (baseball game) and an ad came on for hot dogs and some of us recalled the years earlier ad with the famous jingle.

So a few of us sang together
"I wish I was an Oscar Meyer wiener, that is what I'd truly like to be ...'cos if I was an Oscar Meyer wiener, then everyone would be in love with me!" (Yes, we were a bit off key, beer was involved).

The DM broke in, after sipping on his beer, and said: "there are now only three voices singing."
We all went "What?"
Puzzled looks on faces.

The DM grins and sips his beer again. "Sitting next to you (he gestured to me) is a large, plump, juicy sausage."
The thief's eyes begin to widen.
And then the laughter and crazy crap began.


RAW I think they can turn a rock into the a star with true polymorph,
But you can't turn your wizard into a rock star. :smallbiggrin: For that you need a bard ...

[SharkForce]

As to what a wish spell can do for you, it can turn you into a baseball park food group.
(Go back not quite 40 years, to an ad campaign for a famous hot dog brand, Oscar Meyer)

We'd found a ring of three wishes, and the Thief rolled highest that day for loot so he got first pick.
He decided to conserve his wishes, and wanted time to prepare.

Two game sessions later (After he'd wished his Dex to 18 and the DM granted it) we weren't adventuring: we were sitting in the tavern, discussing which of two rumors to follow for our next adventure.
IRL, we had the TV on in the background (baseball game) and an ad came on for hot dogs and some of us recalled the years earlier ad with the famous jingle.

So a few of us sang together
"I wish I was an Oscar Meyer wiener, that is what I'd truly like to be ...'cos if I was an Oscar Meyer wiener, then everyone would be in love with me!" (Yes, we were a bit off key, beer was involved).

The DM broke in, after sipping on his beer, and said: "there are now only three voices singing."
We all went "What?"
Puzzled looks on faces.

The DM grins and sips his beer again. "Sitting next to you (he gestured to me) is a large, plump, juicy sausage."
The thief's eyes begin to widen.
And then the laughter and crazy crap began.


But you can't turn your wizard into a rock star. :smallbiggrin: For that you need a bard ...

strictly speaking, true polymorph allows you to true polymorph into NPCs (to be clear, this is a *very* contentious point of RAW. i personally don't allow it, but i can't argue that the rules don't technically allow it).

so, if there's an appropriate NPC anywhere... your wizard can in fact turn into a rock star :P

[Foxhound438]

roll low on initiative and get one-shot by a save or die effect.

[MaxWilson]

The DM broke in, after sipping on his beer, and said: "there are now only three voices singing."
We all went "What?"
Puzzled looks on faces.

Epic! Good story. :)

[Human Paragon 3]

What about other than Wish shenanigans and exploits that only work with a loose view of RAW?

[Human Paragon 3]

So nothing? Wizards can't do anything impressive in this game?

[SharkForce]

just look up any random "spellcasters are overpowered" thread. you'll find examples.

alternately, also look up any "warriors are fine" thread that goes more than about 2-3 pages. they eventually turned into "no, spellcasters are totally OP and you just haven't noticed it yet" threads.

personally, i've had this discussion plenty of times, and i've been working my butt off lately. i'm kinda tired, and not in the mood to get into a 20-page discussion of people telling me that being pretty good with swords is enough to put someone on the same playing field as a level 20 wizard, so i'm not starting.

[King539]

Can they teleport an entire castle to the moon, for example?

Yup. True polymorph into a squirrel, teleport to the moon, cast create water a bunch, cast water breathing, dispel the true polymorph.

[Easy_Lee]

Well, they can ruin economies with fabricate. And there are some pretty serious shenanigans with Simulacrum + wish, I hear.

[Human Paragon 3]

just look up any random "spellcasters are overpowered" thread. you'll find examples.

alternately, also look up any "warriors are fine" thread that goes more than about 2-3 pages. they eventually turned into "no, spellcasters are totally OP and you just haven't noticed it yet" threads.

personally, i've had this discussion plenty of times, and i've been working my butt off lately. i'm kinda tired, and not in the mood to get into a 20-page discussion of people telling me that being pretty good with swords is enough to put someone on the same playing field as a level 20 wizard, so i'm not starting.

I'm not at all interested in their relative power to the other classes, only examples of amazing things they can do.

[SharkForce]

I'm not at all interested in their relative power to the other classes, only examples of amazing things they can do.

yup, and you'll find examples in those threads.

mixed in with people saying that they are or are not equally valuable tricks as the guy who can, oh, let's say... make a very nice stone statue over the course of several months of downtime while the spellcaster sets up enough resources to conquer a small kingdom.

[Zene]

Live forever via the clone spell. Pretend to be a paladin by using wish to find steed. Retire to your own private perfect paradise with mordankainen's private sanctum. Use true polymorph and time to create an army of dragons.
High level illusionists can add in "continually warp the land and buildings around me" to the list via Mirage Arcane and Malleable Illusions.
There's gotta be a lot more neat things they can do, but I haven't yet played a high level wizard so I haven't found them myself nor taken the time to research them. I think Antipathy and Mass Suggestion for example each must have a ton of ridiculously overpowered uses.

[Zene]

just look up any random "spellcasters are overpowered" thread. you'll find examples.

alternately, also look up any "warriors are fine" thread that goes more than about 2-3 pages. they eventually turned into "no, spellcasters are totally OP and you just haven't noticed it yet" threads.



Feel like linking any? I just searched this forum for threads with "overpowered" in the title, and maybe my search-fu is weak but I found no threads like you're describing. I'm sure they exist, I'm just failing at finding any to refefence.

[Aaron Underhand]

If you imagine a schrodinger level 20 wizard that has whatever spells you need them to, what can they actually do?

Can they teleport an entire castle to the moon, for example? What's the craziest thing that's within their reach?

At this level you are going to be DM dependant, however if you'd like some examples that the human race can't manage yet, which look like you could do in a universe with DnD Magic I would say colonise the stars.

And I mean the stars, not just the solar system... a magical Mars base is easy - getting a castle to alpha centuri is perfectly possible....

That, feeding and clothing the entire world, and immortality... pretty much covers most things...

[Lombra]

Well immortality as stated above is pretty sweet. An army of undead is cool too. But for the really great things you would need to work with your DM. A 20th level conjurer wizard should be able to scribe a teleportation circle as wide as a city to teleport it somewhere else, but that's not RAW.

[Unoriginal]

At this level you are going to be DM dependant, however if you'd like some examples that the human race can't manage yet, which look like you could do in a universe with DnD Magic I would say colonise the stars.

And I mean the stars, not just the solar system... a magical Mars base is easy - getting a castle to alpha centuri is perfectly possible....

That, feeding and clothing the entire world, and immortality... pretty much covers most things...

A spellcaster alone wouldn't be able to do that. Well, aside from the immortality thing.



So nothing? Wizards can't do anything impressive in this game?

They can do impressive things. It's called using the Wish spell.

They can also destroy armies (in some circumstances), teleport or transport to different planes, transforms into various beings including dragons, and that kind of things.

[Sir cryosin]

Yup. True polymorph into a squirrel, teleport to the moon, cast create water a bunch, cast water breathing, dispel the true polymorph.

This gave me a idea were a high level wizard cast true polymorph. Turing enemy's Into fish and put them into his fish garden.

[Unoriginal]

A wizard that True Polymorph themself into a squirrel can't teleport

[Aaron Underhand]

A spellcaster alone wouldn't be able to do that. Well, aside from the immortality thing.

- Snip -


They can do impressive things. It's called using the Wish spell.

......

I rest my case, though perhaps we should start a new thread on 'interstellar exploration without Wish'.

As a starter for 10... another thread (on levitation) has pointed out you essentially have a 'reactionless drive' or 'impulse engine' with Mage hand.

[Unoriginal]

If you enchant something to create a telekinetic push in one direction, you could power any engine that use motor force.

Problem is, magic is hardly a mundane, reliable thing.

Now, if you want inter-planetary travel, the Neogis are masters at this.

[GlenSmash!]

A wizard that True Polymorph themself into a squirrel can't teleport

I believe in that example it's the castle that is being True polymorphed into a squirrel.

[King539]

A wizard that True Polymorph themself into a squirrel can't teleport

It was the castle that was being True Polymorped, not the wizard.

[Armored Walrus]

Well just browsing the 9th level spells:

Astral Projection - you and your 8 closest friends can travel the astral plane, find gates to other planes (or gates to the plane you started on, but at a different location) and go through the gates to bring your physical bodies and all possessions to the new plane.

Foresight - less awesome than it sounds, IMO. It's a buff that gives advantage on attacks, saves and ability checks for 8 hours and makes you immune to surprise

Gate - Bring creatures from other planes to you. Deities can just keep this from happening at will. You have no special control over the creature that comes through. Alternatively, step through the gate to another plane.

Imprisonment - Essentially remove one creature from the world forever, with a Wisdom save to resist it completely.

Meteor Swarm - 20d6 fire and 20d6 bludgeon damage to creatures in one of 4 seperate 40 foot radius spheres.

Power Word Kill - Instantly kill one creature that has 100 hitpoints or less. no save

Prismatic Wall - keep people out of your s&*t

Shapechage - Turn into any creature other than undead or construct, that you've seen, who's CR <= your level. Would have to have your campaign diary to tell you what you could do with this.

Time Stop - stop the world and melt with, well, no one, because you can't affect creatures other than yourself or objects worn or carried by anything else. 1d4+1 turns to do what you want other than that, though.

True Polymorph - can turn a creature into a creature, an object into a creature,or a creature into an object, but can't raise its CR.

Weird - creatures in a 30 foot radius must make Wis save or be frightened, and save every round or take 4d10 psychic damage. Successful save ends the spell for that target. So... scare entire villages to death?

Wish - um, did people even read this spell's 5e descripton? It's no where near as insane as people want to think it is... It's literally cast any 8th level spell, or create a couple of extremely defined mechanical effects, or ask for whatever you want, but prepare for the DM to screw you. and by the way, if you use this to do anything other than cast 8th level spells, you're going to have to spend a week recovering, aaand, you might burn the ability to cast this spell right out of you. So in other words - "this spell does whatever your DM wants it to do." Being able to cast any 8th level spell without components is pretty sweet, but you probably already have NPC contacts or party members who can cast those spells anyway, and if you can't acquire or afford the material components when you can cast 9th level spells, you're probably doing something wrong. And yes, you could cast simulacrum and have your copy cast wish to counter the negative effects, but Wish still only actually does whatever your DM wants it to. It's no more powerful than being the DM's girlfriend.

[FreddyNoNose]

Level 20 might be powerful, but not as powerful as people are suggesting.

[Armored Walrus]

Yeah, most of the extreme stuff is dependent on having large amounts of downtime, so you need a DM who likes to use time skips. That and you have to have a DM that keeps the campaign going after you've hit level 20, without level 20 being entirely about the epic final adventure to save the multiverse.

[Human Paragon 3]

It was the castle that was being True Polymorped, not the wizard.

I guess it depends on whether a castle is an object or a collection of objects.

[Gtdead]

For powerful effects, the Illusionist has to be the strongest wizard with malleable illusions and reality. I personally dislike this type of play because it's disconnected from the combat aspect of the game but I'm fairly sure that you can do some great things with major image, mirage arcane, simulacrum etc.

A high level bladesinger can use shapechange along with bladesong and become a super powerful critter.

A BS is also an extremely lethal weapon combatant. A fighter can attack 4 times per round. A BS can wish for a simulacrum and do the same while having access to spells like greater invi and haste.

Any wizard with simulacrum can do the force wall + cloudkill (or any other persistent damaging effect). Which is probably the cheapest way to kill anything that fits inside the wall.

The sad part is that you actually need to be really high level to do those things.

[smcmike]

A 20th level wizard can use True Polymorth to turn every member of his city into squirrels, and live in a city of squirrels.

An 11th level Druid can Awaken every squirrel in her forest, and live in a city built by squirrels.


At this level you are going to be DM dependant, however if you'd like some examples that the human race can't manage yet, which look like you could do in a universe with DnD Magic I would say colonise the stars.

And I mean the stars, not just the solar system... a magical Mars base is easy - getting a castle to alpha centuri is perfectly possible....

That, feeding and clothing the entire world, and immortality... pretty much covers most things...

I would love to hear how you plan on accomplishing any of these goals, apart from DM-dependent wishes.

[thereaper]

There are few things that cannot be defeated with an arbitrarily large number of skeleton archers.

Except Simulacrum chains, of course. Produce an unlimited number of copies of yourself, with a correspondingly unlimited number of spell slots. There really isn't anything that can stop a simulacrum chain aside from another one. Once that comes into play, the campaign is over, one way or another.

[Vogonjeltz]

If you imagine a schrodinger level 20 wizard that has whatever spells you need them to, what can they actually do?

Can they teleport an entire castle to the moon, for example? What's the craziest thing that's within their reach?

Well, Wish nominally is capable of doing literally anything, but I think we can safely rule out some of the more ludicrous stuff because DM intervention is called for in those situations.

Teleport does not function beyond a 10-foot cube, so no. An entire castle is outside the scope of Teleport. Could teleport reach the moon? Probably, but it's also going to fall within the "Description" category, giving it a high probability of some kind of mishap.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a spell that actually works to 'see' the surface of the moon. Clairvoyance is too limited, Scry requires you to have seen the location before, Dimension Door too short, Teleportation Circle only useful if someone has already been there (or for once we get there), and Gate requires a precise location. If you haven't been there already there's no way to be precise.

Here's what could get you to the moon. Levitate. Yeah, that's right. It's a level 2 spell, which makes it a candidate for Spell Mastery. Granted, you're stuck at a rate of 20 feet per round (not great), but it can be recast over and over again without burning up any other spell slots AND it can be cast on a creature or object up to 500lbs!

I think you see where I'm going with this. Let me introduce you to our craft: the ever amazing, Apparatus of Kwalish!

Weighing in at exactly 500lbs, this handy one-pilot is airtight and watertight with 10 hours of breathing capacity! So, given the length of the journey, it's going to become important to bring along some kind of supply of air, or the means to not have to avoid breathing at all. Alternatively, I'd give marks for a Cap of Water Breathing which creates a bubble of air around your head at all times. Yes, it's supposed to be for breathing underwater, but I'd allow it. I think there are other methods of not having to breathe, but nothing is coming to mind. Anyway, once we've established a way to get to the moon (ponderously, but eventually) and bypassed the breathing issue, the Wizard can spend the next year of their life creating a teleportation circle on the surface. Then, once that's done, build an airtight structure. Whammo, you now have a moon base.

Totally worthless insofar as I can tell, but awesome, right?


Well, they can ruin economies with fabricate. And there are some pretty serious shenanigans with Simulacrum + wish, I hear.

Even if we assumed outright that everyone and their pet dog was a level 9 Wizard in order to fabricate a couple items every 24 hours, how would that "ruin" the economy? You still need to get the raw materials and have the specialized training for whatever item is being created.

If anything being able to having a higher rate of production would vastly improve the economy in regard to higher end items. Demand almost certainly will outstrip supply given the constraints on the number of spell slots and the actual lack of labor capable of using fabricate anyway.

[SharkForce]

getting to the moon is just a couple of plane shifts away, so long as you're not terribly picky about *where* on the moon you land. that should allow you to get familiar with it :)

[Armored Walrus]

Here's what could get you to the moon. Levitate.

Just a quick note. If we assume your game world's moon is a) an actual hunk of rock orbiting your world and b) roughly as far away as Earth's moon is from Earth (neither of which we can assume, but it gives us something to look at). Then getting there at 20 feet per round will take roughly 720 years.




Even if we assumed outright that everyone and their pet dog was a level 9 Wizard in order to fabricate a couple items every 24 hours, how would that "ruin" the economy? You still need to get the raw materials and have the specialized training for whatever item is being created.

Because everyone knows that more efficient production shrinks economies and results in less material wealth for all. Oh wait...

Also, it's obvious that everyone that's spent years of their life accumulating specialized skills and knowledge settles down into a crafting job and spends their days making mundane items for sale, you know, like all the engineers that decide to go stand on an assembly line building calculators. Oh wait...

People always like to say that introducing wealth, whether via magic or via dungeon treasure or via whatever else they're discussing, "ruins" the economy. How about let's settle on using the word "change the localized economy" instead. Certainly having more wealth - actual concrete goods or actual precious metals to trade - doesn't ruin an economy.

And a wizard fabricating sword, for example, all day every day, is going to make, what, 12 swords a day? He's going to put a handful of weapon smiths in his area out of business potentially, but at the same time he'll allow them to transition to making, say, armor instead, or to pursue their dream of opening an inn, or some other thing. And he's going to be sitting on a lot of swords that no one in his area wants to buy. But to imagine that a guy that can cast wish is going to settle down and open a sword shop is just ludicrous IMO.

[Gurifu]

I would love to hear how you plan on accomplishing any of these goals, apart from DM-dependent wishes.

Rope Trick plus Planeshift for all your long-distance exploration needs. The Rope Trick just gets you off your plane so that you can Planeshift to other places on your plane. Otherwise you have to burn a higher level spell (e.g. a second Planeshift) first.

Bring an object from home so that you can Teleport back, and make sure to pick up an object out there so you can Teleport there again if you want to. Seventh level spell slots don't grow on trees.

Moving a castle is very difficult. However, creating something very similar to a castle just requires True Polymorph and a bug.

[Zene]

Rope Trick plus Planeshift for all your long-distance exploration needs. The Rope Trick just gets you off your plane so that you can Planeshift to other places on your plane. Otherwise you have to burn a higher level spell (e.g. a second Planeshift) first.

Oh that's brilliant! My Amulet of the Planes just became even more useful. :D



Because everyone knows that more efficient production shrinks economies and results in less material wealth for all. Oh wait...

Also, it's obvious that everyone that's spent years of their life accumulating specialized skills and knowledge settles down into a crafting job and spends their days making mundane items for sale, you know, like all the engineers that decide to go stand on an assembly line building calculators. Oh wait...

People always like to say that introducing wealth, whether via magic or via dungeon treasure or via whatever else they're discussing, "ruins" the economy. How about let's settle on using the word "change the localized economy" instead. Certainly having more wealth - actual concrete goods or actual precious metals to trade - doesn't ruin an economy.

And a wizard fabricating sword, for example, all day every day, is going to make, what, 12 swords a day? He's going to put a handful of weapon smiths in his area out of business potentially, but at the same time he'll allow them to transition to making, say, armor instead, or to pursue their dream of opening an inn, or some other thing. And he's going to be sitting on a lot of swords that no one in his area wants to buy. But to imagine that a guy that can cast wish is going to settle down and open a sword shop is just ludicrous IMO.

So I mostly agree with you --(I think; not entirely sure I'm parsing all that sarcasm correctly).

I just wanted to point out, though, that Fabricate creates a lot more than 12 swords per casting: "contained within a 10-foot cube, or eight connected 5-foot cubes".

And while it may not be worth it for a high-level wizard to go learn blacksmithing to be as good as a few blacksmiths; it could very well be worth it for a high-level wizard to go learn jewelry-making to be as good as a few _hundred_ jewelcrafters. Converting 200 square feet of raw gold ore and uncut stones into finely crafted jewelry --doubling its value per PHB crafting rules-- per casting, would mean being able to afford any expensive spell component you'd ever want, easily. It'd mean no longer having to work, or adventure, ever again, if you didn't want to.

I agree it wouldn't necessarily "break" the economy.

[smcmike]

Rope Trick plus Planeshift for all your long-distance exploration needs. The Rope Trick just gets you off your plane so that you can Planeshift to other places on your plane.


It is not clear to me that Rope Trick works with Plane Shift like this. "Extradimensional space" does not necessarily mean "different plane of existence," does it?

Also, just getting there is only one step. Surviving is another. The surface of Mars? Maybe. The surface of Alpha Centauri? Please.

[Haldir]

RAW I think they can turn a rock into the a star with true polymorph, completely destroying the entire world for the 1 second the star exists (it ends when you yourself die). just double check and no "object into object" but you can turn a creature into an object. it depends on what is "an object" though.

The correct response to shenanigans like this it to point out that stars aren't objects, being literally worshipped as divine by many different religions. Players pulling this sh*t aren't as clever as they think they are.

[Armored Walrus]

So I mostly agree with you --(I think; not entirely sure I'm parsing all that sarcasm correctly).

Yeah, sorry for the tone of the post, but sarcasm is my highest stat. I think you parsed it all correctly.



I just wanted to point out, though, that Fabricate creates a lot more than 12 swords per casting: "contained within a 10-foot cube, or eight connected 5-foot cubes".

I was actually saying 12 swords per day not per casting. So multiple casts using all of a 20th level wizard's 4th level and higher slots. But that's because I'm looking at a different part of the spell description than you are; "You can fabricate a Large or smaller object." Maybe I'm putting too much importance on the fact that "object" is singular, but to me that means you can make one sword per casting.



And while it may not be worth it for a high-level wizard to go learn blacksmithing to be as good as a few blacksmiths; it could very well be worth it for a high-level wizard to go learn jewelry-making to be as good as a few _hundred_ jewelcrafters. Converting 200 square feet of raw gold ore and uncut stones into finely crafted jewelry --doubling its value per PHB crafting rules-- per casting, would mean being able to afford any expensive spell component you'd ever want, easily. It'd mean no longer having to work, or adventure, ever again, if you didn't want to.

But that requires having 200 square feet of raw gold ore and uncut stones in the first place, which if you can do that reliably enough to be able to cast Fabricate on it once a day, why not just hire a couple hundred jewelers to work it for you- after all, if you fabricate all those jewels, you're going to need to have some kind of distribution system if you hope to sell them all anyway, how involved does your wizard want to be in resource development, manufacturing, supply chain management, marketing and sales? Leave that to the nobles I say and use your fabricate spell slots on crafting an adamantine shield for your fighter on the spot when you come across a small chunk of adamantite in the dragon's hoard.


I agree it wouldn't necessarily "break" the economy.

Which really was the only point I was making and the rest of my post was just snark. I'm not saying there wouldn't be consequences; lots of pissed off jewelers in your home city being the first to spring to mind, but talking about "ruining" an economy by improving efficiency is just silly talk.



PS. The whole concept is just noise anyway. If anyone's actually doing this in their own home game I'd be surprised. There are far better business/economy simulation games to play than D&D. I come to the table to explore dungeons and fight dragons, not run a jewelry store.