adding a Leadership ability score (not the feat)

[JeenLeen]

I've been feeling like doing a game with nation- or estate-building. I'm leaning towards a system not in 5e (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533556-looking-for-system-with-nation-(or-estate)-building) but started thinking about doing it in 5th edition.

if I do, I'd like a Leadership score. I feel it shouldn't be a derived thing or a skill linked to Charisma (as seems most reasonable), since I don't want Cha-based casters to have an advantage. I'd like a warrior with poor mental ability scores to be able to be a good leader. Thus, I'm thinking of adding it as a 7th ability score.

My question is: if using point-buy, what seems like a reasonable amount to add to the point-buy pool to allow players to buy into a 7th stat?
I may make a rule like they must have at least a 12 in Leadership (since the game would default to them playing leaders of some sort), so they can't dump Leadership to boost their other stats a ton.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've been feeling like doing a game with nation- or estate-building. I'm leaning towards a system not in 5e (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533556-looking-for-system-with-nation-(or-estate)-building) but started thinking about doing it in 5th edition.

if I do, I'd like a Leadership score. I feel it shouldn't be a derived thing or a skill linked to Charisma (as seems most reasonable), since I don't want Cha-based casters to have an advantage. I'd like a warrior with poor mental ability scores to be able to be a good leader. Thus, I'm thinking of adding it as a 7th ability score.

My question is: if using point-buy, what seems like a reasonable amount to add to the point-buy pool to allow players to buy into a 7th stat?
I may make a rule like they must have at least a 12 in Leadership (since the game would default to them playing leaders of some sort), so they can't dump Leadership to boost their other stats a ton.
If you want to hack the game, you are better off to switch both the Sorcie and the Warlock to being Int casters, Switch the bard to Wisdom (they were originally aligned heavily with druids, game description wise) and return Charisma to what it originally was.

A leadership ability score, and a social skills (persuasion, intimidation, force of personality) score. (That's going all the way back)

Don't add complexity, reduce it.

[Unoriginal]

if I do, I'd like a Leadership score. I feel it shouldn't be a derived thing or a skill linked to Charisma (as seems most reasonable), since I don't want Cha-based casters to have an advantage. I'd like a warrior with poor mental ability scores to be able to be a good leader.

...I don't get it, sorry. Why don't you want charismatic, people-savvy persons to be better leaders than persons who have an hard time asserting themselves or are uncomfortable in society?

For your system, well, have you taken a look at the Honor stat mechanic in the DMG? It could be a good starting point.

[Jama7301]

You could set it at, say 10, and allow people to use ASIs on it, to show that they're growing as leaders as they level up. Maybe even adjust an existing feat from a +1 to a stat to +1 Leadership, so the stat can gets some half-feats.

This way it falls outside the point buy dump stat, yet can still be increased if someone wanted.

[GlenSmash!]

What would the leadership score get used for?

[Occasional Sage]

This seems much like reinventing the wheel. Is there enough to be gained with a new stat to justify the extra work and complexity?

What is so terrible about some classes dovetailing with being a leader? It's not just warlocks, but also paladins. Sometimes things line up.

[SaurOps]

What would the leadership score get used for?

Well, a lot of factors from Battlesystem could still be used for mass combat. Among those is the Command Diameter, which stretches out equal to a distance dependent on your Fighter level (half any other levels) and allows you to move and direct tens, if not hundreds, or soldiers ; the 2e fighter could have up to their level plus Loyalty Base bonus in hundreds of soldiers under their direct command. If you did use it, though, you'd have to flip the direction of AC to determine AR, and possibly re-scale time and movement.

[JeenLeen]

If you want to hack the game, you are better off to switch both the Sorcie and the Warlock to being Int casters, Switch the bard to Wisdom (they were originally aligned heavily with druids, game description wise) and return Charisma to what it originally was.

A leadership ability score, and a social skills (persuasion, intimidation, force of personality) score. (That's going all the way back)

I like that idea. That does seem simplest.


This seems much like reinventing the wheel. Is there enough to be gained with a new stat to justify the extra work and complexity?

What is so terrible about some classes dovetailing with being a leader? It's not just warlocks, but also paladins. Sometimes things line up.
It's not a big deal, but it seems unfair to someone who wants to make a decent fighter.


What would the leadership score get used for?
I admit I'm kinda doing things backwards, because I don't know yet.
I'm considering things like, in mass combat, the army is basically 'worn' by the PC, but modifiers are limited to the Leadership score. For example, if a Fighter normally had +4 accuracy and damage due to their Strength score, their army can get up to +4 but is limited by the Leadership modifier. So Str 18 Leadership 14 only gets a +2.

Also using it as the modifier for rolls when trying to recruit troops, members of the court, or peasants, and for managing the estate.

Really, I think 5e (or any D&D) isn't the best system for this, but I wanted to think about it in 5e.

[D.U.P.A.]

Well, Fighters are rather SAD, so they can afford to put remaining points into Charisma, so no big deal. After all, I think even some maneuvers use that stat. Then also the player could invest in some Charisma skills if planning to recruit and manage. Or you can make some "tool", like a extra skill proficiency for such matters, which bases on Charisma.

[JeenLeen]

I forgot to mention that I haven't looked at the Honor system in the DMG, but I plan to now (when I find a copy & have the time).


Well, Fighters are rather SAD, so they can afford to put remaining points into Charisma, so no big deal. After all, I think even some maneuvers use that stat. Then also the player could invest in some Charisma skills if planning to recruit and manage. Or you can make some "tool", like a extra skill proficiency for such matters, which bases on Charisma.

True... and I guess Rogues are mostly Dex, Barbarians mostly Str (though they need Dex for decent unarmored defense), and, well, my group doesn't really use Ranger or Monk since they aren't as good generally, so that's not a huge concern (even if it should be taken into consideration as a game design policy). I don't really mind making spellcasters a bit more MAD. But it still just feels like an unfair advantage to sorcerer, warlock, and paladin.

[SaurOps]

I forgot to mention that I haven't looked at the Honor system in the DMG, but I plan to now (when I find a copy & have the time).

I'd advise against spending any time on the optional Ability systems in the DMG. Honor in particular is rather arbitrarily hammered into an Ability structure that doesn't really work well with it, and it tends to overlap with other Abilities in what it does.

[RSP]

Maybe just create a skill for Soldiering (or Leadership). That could be based off of any of the mental stats (users choice) without bucking the system too much.

This way every has the chance to get it and at least associate with a selected stat.

It also keeps a difference between social skills ame I saw that you want to include "court" maneuvering and battlefield maneuvering in the system, but these are two very different things.

By having "soldiering" as a skill, some can be good at court (persuasion/deception/intimidate), and some at combat.

Making it a skill keeps its cost lower as well.

[KorvinStarmast]

I like that idea. That does seem simplest. Give it a try, and tell us how it works.

The Sorcie and Warlocks will need to revisit their build plans a bit, to be sure, and "who is the party face" becomes a trickier question. But whomever puts a bit of stats and skills in Charisma based stuff will benefit from that.