Advancing animals

[tedcahill2]

Okay I'm looking at the leopard. They have a bite attack as a standard attack, or a bite and 2 claws as a full round action.

Can they not use their claws as a standard action?

What happens if they advance to have multiple attacks due to a high BAB? Do they make multiple bite attacks? Extra claw attacks?

[rel]

The number of natural attacks a creature gets is based on their body not their BAB.
This means that a low HD creature can potentially have a lot of natural attacks but they do not get more as they gain HD.
So a leopard cannot get more bites or claws from increases to BAB.


A creature can use any one natural attack as a standard action and all of its natural attacks as a full round action.
So the leopard could use the bite attack or ONE claw attack as a standard action but needs a full round action to make more than one attack.

[tedcahill2]

The number of natural attacks a creature gets is based on their body not their BAB.
This means that a low HD creature can potentially have a lot of natural attacks but they do not get more as they gain HD.
So a leopard cannot get more bites or claws from increases to BAB.


A creature can use any one natural attack as a standard action and all of its natural attacks as a full round action.
So the leopard could use the bite attack or ONE claw attack as a standard action but needs a full round action to make more than one attack.


How have I never noticed this with druid's wild shape? So if you're a druid 5 barbarian 15 with a BAB of 18/13/8/3 and you wild shape into a leopard, you only get to do a bite and 2 claws as a full attack?

I'm working with a player to do a shapeshifting (transformer like) warforged barbarian and I think this will cause him to quickly lose combat effectiveness.

I'm building him a predator form and a beast form (based on the predator form and beast form of the shapeshifter variant druid from PH 2). I sort of want his attacks to be able to scale with his base attack bonus.

What if I added attack modes to his full attacks as he levels up. So level 1 he has just a bite, at level 6 he adds claws, at level 11 he gets rake maybe. Or would it be easier to just let him use his bite with all his attacks for a high BAB?

[KillianHawkeye]

A creature can use any one natural attack as a standard action and all of its natural attacks as a full round action.
So the leopard could use the bite attack or ONE claw attack as a standard action but needs a full round action to make more than one attack.


Note:

The reason that the leopard lists only its bite attack for its Standard Action attack is because the bite is his primary attack. You're correct that he could choose to make a single attack with one claw instead of biting, but I need to point out that it still remains a secondary natural attack and will take the appropriate penalties even if it's the only attack made in the round. The writers have made the assumption that animals will generally always choose to attack with their best attack (possibly to save space on the stat block).

[tedcahill2]

Note:

The reason that the leopard lists only its bite attack for its Standard Action attack is because the bite is his primary attack. You're correct that he could choose to make a single attack with one claw instead of biting, but I need to point out that it still remains a secondary natural attack and will take the appropriate penalties even if it's the only attack made in the round. The writers have made the assumption that animals will generally always choose to attack with their best attack (possibly to save space on the stat block).

So is your opinion that a leopard with a high enough base attack could make 4 bite attacks? or bite, 2 claws, bite, 2 claws? How would that work?

[Deadline]

How have I never noticed this with druid's wild shape? So if you're a druid 5 barbarian 15 with a BAB of 18/13/8/3 and you wild shape into a leopard, you only get to do a bite and 2 claws as a full attack?

That's correct, and that is how natural attacks work by design.


I'm working with a player to do a shapeshifting (transformer like) warforged barbarian and I think this will cause him to quickly lose combat effectiveness.

I'm building him a predator form and a beast form (based on the predator form and beast form of the shapeshifter variant druid from PH 2). I sort of want his attacks to be able to scale with his base attack bonus.

What if I added attack modes to his full attacks as he levels up. So level 1 he has just a bite, at level 6 he adds claws, at level 11 he gets rake maybe. Or would it be easier to just let him use his bite with all his attacks for a high BAB?

Why not just get him the Improved Unarmed Strike feat? Then his full attack could be his Unarmed Strikes (which benefit from iteratives due to high BAB), plus his natural attack routine (which would all be secondary attacks in this case).

So if he had a +16 BAB, his full attack would be Unarmed Strike +16/+11/+6/+1, and Bite +11, and 2 claws +11.

Natural attack routines are good because they aren't affected by BAB iteratives.

[The Viscount]

So is your opinion that a leopard with a high enough base attack could make 4 bite attacks? or bite, 2 claws, bite, 2 claws? How would that work?

No.

He is answering your initial question. Instead of a bite as a standard action, a leopard could use a claw attack as a standard action. However, because it is a secondary attack and not a primary attack, it is made at a -5 penalty and only adds half Str bonus to damage.

Deadline's advice is very sound here. If you want more attacks, that's the simplest route with a solid return.

The only way to get "iteratives" for natural attacks I know of is to take rapidstrike, which requires a rather arbitrary selection of types.

[Deadline]

However, because it is a secondary attack and not a primary attack, it is made at a -5 penalty and only adds half Str bonus to damage.

Actually, that isn't entirely accurate (unless I'm missing an errata somewhere). Secondary natural attacks take the -5 penalty, that's true. But the amount of strength bonus you add to damage isn't reliant on it being a Primary or Secondary natural attack. There are several entries where the primary attack may be a pair of claws which only add your strength bonus to damage, and a secondary bite or gore attack that adds 1.5*Strength bonus.

@OP, for reference, most of what we've mentioned here can be found in the glossary of the Monster Manual (page 312) under the "Natural Weapons" heading.

Edit - Also, as The Viscount mentioned, there are several feats that enhance Natural Attacks:

Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual)
Multi-Attack (Monster Manual)
Rapidstrike (there's a whole chain around these. I think it's in the Draconomicon?)

There's likely more, but that's all I know off the top of my head.

[KillianHawkeye]

Note:

The reason that the leopard lists only its bite attack for its Standard Action attack is because the bite is his primary attack. You're correct that he could choose to make a single attack with one claw instead of biting, but I need to point out that it still remains a secondary natural attack and will take the appropriate penalties even if it's the only attack made in the round. The writers have made the assumption that animals will generally always choose to attack with their best attack (possibly to save space on the stat block).


So is your opinion that a leopard with a high enough base attack could make 4 bite attacks? or bite, 2 claws, bite, 2 claws? How would that work?

No, they explicitly cannot do that and I'm not sure how you got that impression from what I wrote. I wasn't even talking about Full Attacks at all.

That being said, giving iterative attacks for natural weapons is a bad idea. Sure, it seems fine on a leopard, but just imagine what will happen with a hydra with anywhere between five and ten bite attacks, or a dragon with a bite, two claws, two wings, and a tail slap!

[Hiro Quester]

Why not just get him the Improved Unarmed Strike feat? Then his full attack could be his Unarmed Strikes (which benefit from iteratives due to high BAB), plus his natural attack routine (which would all be secondary attacks in this case).

So if he had a +16 BAB, his full attack would be Unarmed Strike +16/+11/+6/+1, and Bite +11, and 2 claws +11.

Natural attack routines are good because they aren't affected by BAB iteratives.

This.

I'm playing a Druid with one monk level (for AC, IAS, and improved Grapple). The iterative (improved) unarmed strikes can be with any part of the body, then natural attacks at -5.

Leopard also gets pounce and improved grab, so can make a full attack on a charge, and can also rake with its back claws if it hist with a natural weapon (bite, from memory) and wins the grapple check.

Edit: a one level monk dip before taking barbarian levels (he got angry and left the monastery) might augment his build nicely.

[The Viscount]

Actually, that isn't entirely accurate (unless I'm missing an errata somewhere). Secondary natural attacks take the -5 penalty, that's true. But the amount of strength bonus you add to damage isn't reliant on it being a Primary or Secondary natural attack. There are several entries where the primary attack may be a pair of claws which only add your strength bonus to damage, and a secondary bite or gore attack that adds 1.5*Strength bonus.


A creature’s primary attack damage includes its full Strength modifier (1½ times its Strength bonus if the attack is with the creature’s sole natural weapon) and is given first. Secondary attacks add only ½ the creature’s Strength bonus and are given second in the parentheses.
Because nothing is ever easy, this rule is found in Reading the Entries under "Full Attack" which is page 6 of MMI, or in the srd if you click "full attack" for any monster. I'd love to see entries where they did what you're talking about, can you remember any off the top of your head?

[Deadline]

Because nothing is ever easy, this rule is found in Reading the Entries under "Full Attack" which is page 6 of MMI, or in the srd if you click "full attack" for any monster. I'd love to see entries where they did what you're talking about, can you remember any off the top of your head?

I'm pretty certain that the Minotaur entry does what I mentioned. Cheers for the quote, I missed that one entirely.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm pretty certain that the Minotaur entry does what I mentioned. Cheers for the quote, I missed that one entirely.

Not the minotaur in the 3.5 Monster Manual.

It has a 19 Strength, and it's gore does 1d8+4 when used alone. When used during a Full Attack routine, it becomes secondary to the minotaur's manufactured weapon and takes the standard -5 penalty and only gains half the Strength bonus to damage (1d8+2). Exactly what's supposed to happen.

[flappeercraft]

Why don't you take levels in warshaper for the warforged? If you can qualify for it there is technically no limit to how many natural weapons you can create with that and they don't have a duration, you can maybe just say that the amount is linked to BAB or something similar.

[The Viscount]

Not the minotaur in the 3.5 Monster Manual.

It has a 19 Strength, and it's gore does 1d8+4 when used alone. When used during a Full Attack routine, it becomes secondary to the minotaur's manufactured weapon and takes the standard -5 penalty and only gains half the Strength bonus to damage (1d8+2). Exactly what's supposed to happen.

This is the correct mathematics for dealing with a natural attack, but since it's the minotaur's only natural attack, it should be dealing 1.5X str when used as a standard, shouldn't it? It seems like the writers interpreted "only natural attack" to mean "only attack." The Goatfolk and Ocean Strider, which also have one natural attack and one manufactured, have calculations for damage just like the Minotaur, so perhaps the rule isn't exactly how it seems.
However, the sample Darfellan gains 1.5XStr when using its bite as a primary attack, so we have evidence on both sides. Call it a poorly applied rule, I guess.

[KillianHawkeye]

This is the correct mathematics for dealing with a natural attack, but since it's the minotaur's only natural attack, it should be dealing 1.5X str when used as a standard, shouldn't it? It seems like the writers interpreted "only natural attack" to mean "only attack." The Goatfolk and Ocean Strider, which also have one natural attack and one manufactured, have calculations for damage just like the Minotaur, so perhaps the rule isn't exactly how it seems.
However, the sample Darfellan gains 1.5XStr when using its bite as a primary attack, so we have evidence on both sides. Call it a poorly applied rule, I guess.

To that, I can only say "maybe there was a reason for it", or else it was a simple mistake. It isn't the most memorable rule, and there are lots of little mistakes in monster and NPC stat blocks. The writers and designers aren't perfect.

Either way, there's really no way of knowing at this point.

[Deadline]

Dragons also don't follow this rule, although you could argue that they specifically call that out (they don't, but they do specify the strength bonus for each of the natural attacks). Dragons add their Str bonus to Bites, 1.5 Str bonus to Tail Slap, and .5 to Claw and Wing attacks. There are more examples that I know I've seen, but I don't remember which critters in which books, and don't have a lot of time to dig through them.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Dragons also don't follow this rule, although you could argue that they specifically call that out (they don't, but they do specify the strength bonus for each of the natural attacks). Dragons add their Str bonus to Bites, 1.5 Str bonus to Tail Slap, and .5 to Claw and Wing attacks. There are more examples that I know I've seen, but I don't remember which critters in which books, and don't have a lot of time to dig through them.

The bite and claw and wing attacks are working normally and the tail slap is explicitly called out as an exception in the rules block for true dragons so everything is working as intended there. Stuff like the minotaur and ocean strider are almost certainly mistakes which are bound to happen, especially given that monster blocks are full of information and I presume a lot of these were cranked out in a timely fashion.

[Deadline]

The bite and claw and wing attacks are working normally and the tail slap is explicitly called out as an exception in the rules block for true dragons so everything is working as intended there. Stuff like the minotaur and ocean strider are almost certainly mistakes which are bound to happen, especially given that monster blocks are full of information and I presume a lot of these were cranked out in a timely fashion.

Given the quote that The Viscount helpfully provided, it's likely these are mistakes (they are many and varied across sample characters and monster entries), I was just pointing them out. The general rule is solid and applied fairly consistently, but there are plenty of examples where it's ... not quite right. Because these aren't consistent, the idea that they are mistakes is quite likely.