Militarizing PC ****ery

[Avianmosquito]

The goal of this thread is simple: Find ways to milotarize the kinds of ****ery PCs have gotten away with in your campaigns. I have a setting where this is part of how militaries work, in particular how special forces work, pulling stupid, crazy crap that should never have worked right out of PC playbooks and using it in battle.

One good example was the dragon drop. My PCs once dominated a dragon and used it and featherfall to airdrop directly onto a castle. I then took this and handed it to the military, and in the next campaign elite kill teams could fall out of the sky with no warning, then be supported from the air by a friggin' dragon. Worse, the military had friendly dragons and needn't dominate them, lowering this strategy's usable level by a LOT, making the military version better. I want to see how many PC tricks we can do this to.

[RoboEmperor]

Scry'n'Die

Have an agency scry the PC endlessly
Using the information, use the perfect counter spells, equipment, and class choice to do the most perfect ambush .

[Avianmosquito]

Scry'n'Die

Have an agency scry the PC endlessly
Using the information, use the perfect counter spells, equipment, and class choice to do the most perfect ambush .

Scry and die is REALLY easy to defend against, though.

[Eldariel]

Scry and die is REALLY easy to defend against, though.

The basic issue perhaps, but until Mind Blank becomes available, the fundamental combination of one-sided information plus nigh' infinite mobility results in extremely easy kills.

While teleporting right on the party carries the risk of e.g. Anticipate Teleport catching the attacker and turning the tables, there's the simple option of teleporting outside spell radius and engaging from medium range, or e.g. waiting for some other party to engage the target and teaming up on them, or waiting for them to consume their resources/be damaged before attacking or such. And the attacker gets to pre-summon extras before you attack, buff up, prepare spells and equipment just for this fight, etc.

The defender never knows when they are attacked, so aside from huddling together in an extradimensional space all day (and thus being irrelevant), they cannot really defend meaningfully and are at a massive disadvantage. Generally at least a surprise round and a lot of number's worth (persistomancy helps vs. the numbers but only enhances the importance of surprise due to the offensive potential of high OP).

[RoboEmperor]

Scry and die is REALLY easy to defend against, though.

It forces the party to invest resources in anti-scrying spells 24/7. Nondetection is beatable with superior caster level, and requires 50gp per casting, and it only lasts 1/hour a level so having it up 24/7 is impossible.

Mage's Private Sanctum and False Vision is stationary. You can hide what you are doing in an area, but that's it, once you move out you are scryed. That and False Vision requires 250gp per casting.

Mind Blank is a level 8 spell.

Nothing pisses a party off more than having to spend all of their highest level spell slots on anti-scrying spells.

[Elkad]

The basic issue perhaps, but until Mind Blank becomes available, the fundamental combination of one-sided information plus nigh' infinite mobility results in extremely easy kills.

There are other abilities online sooner, though with lesser effectiveness.

DC20 int check to notice the sensor.
Eyes to the Sky feat to notice the sensor automatically.
NonDetection. Not foolproof (CL+15 check to beat).
Detect Scrying. Warns you at least.
Anticipate Teleportation. More warning.
False Vision. Scrying observes a Major Image of your creation. (Solar standing guard while I sleep?)
Mage's Private Sanctum (hopefully permanent, and probably combined with hit&run tactics of your own)

Not hard to have at least one of those up.

[Eldariel]

There are other abilities online sooner, though with lesser effectiveness.

DC20 int check to notice the sensor.
Eyes to the Sky feat to notice the sensor automatically.
NonDetection. Not foolproof (CL+15 check to beat).
Detect Scrying. Warns you at least.
Anticipate Teleportation. More warning.
False Vision. Scrying observes a Major Image of your creation. (Solar standing guard while I sleep?)
Mage's Private Sanctum (hopefully permanent, and probably combined with hit&run tactics of your own)

Not hard to have at least one of those up.

Noticing the sensor does not suffice, since it just tells you that you got Scryed. The information provided by Scrying suffices for Teleportation and the spell lasts for 1 min/level - enough to wait for the target's short duration buffs they might cast in preparation to wear out. Further, you can use the terrain information the spell gives to teleport behind the target, and unless the target is moving at very high speeds, you'll probably be able to initiate on them with surprise. Nondetection is hard and costly to keep up for all party all the time, Anticipate Teleport is great but only works if they teleport right at your person instead of ~200' away and since Detect Magic can generally be used enough times to use through Scrying, you'll probably know if it's a False Vision. Sanctum and similars do work though, but generally you'll have to operate outside them at times too. Those do help but they do not void the plan of attacking.

[Goaty14]

Disguise the fighter to look like the wizard, and the wizard the fighter, and give the "fighter" a bow, they'll never guess it.

[Mr Adventurer]

Noticing the sensor does not suffice, since it just tells you that you got Scryed.

If you notice the scrying sensor, you can put a box on a stick around it.

[The Viscount]

I haven't heard of it being used in actual play, but the Locate City Nuke is exceptionally powerful and easily used for something like this.

The wightocalypse in a heavily populated area of commoners is similarly simple and very effective.

[Elkad]

Noticing the sensor does not suffice, since it just tells you that you got Scryed.

Being aware is ALWAYS useful. Slow down our pace and reserve some dailies for an unexpected fight/flight. Instead of one guy on guard duty, use 2 guys and an Alarm spell. Start blowing spell slots on Nondetection and Anticipate Teleport even in "safe" areas. Or just run from the sensor, and immediately prepare your counter-attack.

No, you can't fix all of it. But you can give yourself a fighting chance instead of all getting knifed in your bunks.

[Eldariel]

Being aware is ALWAYS useful. Slow down our pace and reserve some dailies for an unexpected fight/flight. Instead of one guy on guard duty, use 2 guys and an Alarm spell. Start blowing spell slots on Nondetection and Anticipate Teleport even in "safe" areas. Or just run from the sensor, and immediately prepare your counter-attack.

No, you can't fix all of it. But you can give yourself a fighting chance instead of all getting knifed in your bunks.

Of course, being able to narrow the attack down to ~10-20 minutes is great compared to being caught completely unawares, but still not knowing who, where, how and with what (if they come at all) still leaves you at a huge disadvantage.

[Elkad]

Of course, being able to narrow the attack down to ~10-20 minutes is great compared to being caught completely unawares, but still not knowing who, where, how and with what (if they come at all) still leaves you at a huge disadvantage.

Make the Int check to notice, pull out your Detect Scrying scroll and read, and make your opposed check to find out who it is.
Which he counters by casting a non-detection of his own before scrying.
I'd still give you Direction&Distance at least in that case though, just not the visual image of the caster.

[Manyasone]

I haven't heard of it being used in actual play, but the Locate City Nuke is exceptionally powerful and easily used for something like this...

Hasn't this one been refuted on these very forums? Not applicable target of the metamagics or some such

[Telok]

Several crusaders, a wiz/sorc with several scrolls of fireball, and a summoned monkey with a necklace of fireballs.

[Crake]

Detect scrying lets you potentially get a vision of the person scrying you, which makes scrying suddenly VERY dangerous against an equal level opponent, because the moment you fail that opposed CL check, you can then immediately be counter scried. Not only that, once you see the sensor, you can dispel it. Plus sensors only last 1 minute/level and take an hour to cast, unless they're using the greater scrying version, at which point you're potentially trading a 6th level spell (greater dispel magic) for a 7th level spell (greater scrying), or you can simply teleport a short distance away and leave the scrying sensor lost. Meanwhile, detect scrying, a 4th level spell that lasts 24 hours, is up all day and really should be part of any PC's repertoire.

[The Viscount]

Hasn't this one been refuted on these very forums? Not applicable target of the metamagics or some such

Some have argued that the trick doesn't work, yes. The central point is that flash frost says it deals an "extra 2 points of cold damage per level" and that the "extra" means it could only be applied to a spell that deals damage in the first place. My viewpoint on the matter is that of the old classic.

Mad Hatter: Would you like a little more tea?
Alice: Well, I haven't had any yet, so I can't very well take more.
March Hare: Ah, you mean you can't very well take less.
Mad Hatter: Yes. You can always take more than nothing.
It's a subject of some debate, but there's nothing that will definitively sway either side.

[Zordran]

Some have argued that the trick doesn't work, yes. The central point is that flash frost says it deals an "extra 2 points of cold damage per level" and that the "extra" means it could only be applied to a spell that deals damage in the first place. My viewpoint on the matter is that of the old classic.

It's a subject of some debate, but there's nothing that will definitively sway either side.

The old Locate City Nuke involved the Explosive Spell feat, and that was eratta'd out.

[Arbane]

The wightocalypse in a heavily populated area of commoners is similarly simple and very effective.

As the great philosopher Daffy Duck once said, it's a good trick, but you can only do it once. Because it DESTROYS THE WORLD.

Or one of the more undead-hating gods smites you after cleaning up your mess.

[molten_dragon]

I, and my group, have pulled several over the years.

Death in the Dark is a good low-level one, although it works better in 3.5 than in PF. Blanket an area in magical darkness (or anything else of your choice that prevents vision) and then summon some critters with blindsight/blindsense/tremorsense/scent/etc and let them go to town.

A nastier, higher-level version of the same trick is to lock the battlefield down with spells that allow SR and then send some golems in to kill everything within the area of the spells.

Then there's the golem drop. You drop a greater stone golem on someone's head from as high up as you can. You can get up to 40d6 damage from the weight and the falling distance, and then they have a greater stone golem (and the rest of your party) to deal with.

[AvatarVecna]

Have this guy follow them around:

Necropolitan Dark Whisper Gnome Scout 9 (really, whatever level you feel is appropriate, but I'm doing 12 as an example)

Attributes (32 pb, lvl 9, w/ items): Str 13/Dex 24/Con -/Int 12/Wis 12/Cha 6

Skills:
Appraise 6 (+7)
Hide 12 (+52)
Listen 12 (+15)
Move Silently 12 (+49)
Search 12 (+13)
Sense Motive 12 (+13)
Sleight Of Hand 12 (+34)
Speak Language 12
Spot 12 (+15)


Feats:
HD 1: Darkstalker
Flaw (Pathetic Constitution): 3.0 Cosmopolitan (Sleight Of Hand)
Flaw (Pathetic Constitution): Skill Focus (Move Silently)
HD 3: Item Familiar (Hide/Move Silently/Sleight Of Hand)
Scout 4: Skill Focus (Sleight Of Hand)
HD 6: Run
Scout 8: Improved Initiative
HD 9: Quick Reconnoiter


Items:
Gloves Of Dexterity +2
Cloak Of Elvenkind
Boots Of Elvenkind
Handy Haversack
up to 1000 gp worth of useful mundane gear

Have this stealthy, unresting, undead ******* follow them during the day, sneak around right next to them in dark dungeons or at night, take notes on everything they can do and all the items they have, and report back. If this ECL 10 NPC has HiPS available to them due to lighting conditions, the PCs need to have a +30 Listen or a +33 Spot to even have a chance. This is partly fun as a good way to justify why the enemy forces seem to know what the PCs are capable of and what plans they use/items they have, partly fun to see how they react to the enemy forces having notes written by somebody who's clearly gotten to inspect them up close (maybe they'll assume another PC is the spy, who knows), and can be very fun if a random spell ends up revealing the spy's presence for even a moment. They'll spend the rest of the campaign paranoid.

[The Viscount]

The old Locate City Nuke involved the Explosive Spell feat, and that was eratta'd out.

I'm not sure I understand you. Could you explain what you mean?

[Zordran]

I'm not sure I understand you. Could you explain what you mean?

There were two versions of the Locate City nuke. The one of which I speak only added Explosive Spell to Locate City, and that was why Explosive Spell was errata'd to require that the spell do damage in the first place. At least, i think so. A little bit of looking around leaves me questioning my memory.

[Zaq]

No, no. The problem with the Explosive Spell version of the LCB is that Locate City is a circle rather than a sphere. So things don't get pushed for miles and miles to the far edges of the circle—they get pushed an infinitely small distance up (or otherwise perpendicular to the circle), because that's the shortest distance to the outside of the spell's area. (Or, if you don't want them pushed an infinitely small amount, they're pushed one square up, which still won't actually kill anything.)

The Wightpocalypse version mostly works as far as I can tell, assuming that the GM doesn't just hard-fiat it away. (Which they can and probably should do, much like they should whenever a kobold Paladin starts saying the word "Pazuzu.") Unless I'm forgetting some element of it, I think that it's slightly less deadly than advertised given that folks who are indoors will be protected from the initial negative level (since the caster doesn't have line of effect to them), but as long as there enough level 1 characters outside when the LCB goes off, those people who were indoors still have to put up with the wights, which is the real problem in a lot of ways.

[Elkad]

Since it's a circular flat plane, anyone more than a few (5-15) miles away is going to be missed anyway.
If the spell starts 5' above the ground, and the target is 5' tall, at a distance of 5 miles* it passes harmlessly over his head.

*Assumes whatever world you are on has the same curvature as Earth.

[Endarire]

Belts of Battle (Magic Item Compendium). That is all.