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Easy_Lee
2017-08-17, 09:14 AM
This post is about two common problems some people have with D&D 5e, and a possible method to resolve both at once. I expect to catch a lot of crap for this, but I'm prepared for that.

Versatile Weapons
Some classes have use of the versatile property of weapons in certain cases. A Hexblade Warlock or Monk might use the versatile property of a longsword or quarterstaff. But a fighter almost never would. In spite of longsword, spears, battleaxes, and warhammers being some of the most iconic weapons, a fighter has little reason to put two hands on any of them. There is no fighting style for this.

Strength and Dexterity
With strength representing brawn and dexterity coordination, one would expect a fighter to have decent scores in both. That seldom happens. A fighter who focuses strength has little reason to raise dexterity. A fighter who focuses dexterity has even less reason to raise strength.

But if it's uncommon to see a fighter with good scores in both, it's almost unheard of in rangers and paladins. This is particularly strange for rangers given that strength and dexterity are their proficient saving throws.

From a realism standpoint, this is peculiar. Ought a fighter not benefit from both power and coordination?

Past Recommendations
Some tables allow Dueling to apply to versatile weapons when used in two hands. The trouble here is that longswords will then do more average damage than greatswords, unless the greatsword crits or the player is using GWM. And this doesn't fix the strength and dexterity issue.

Proposed Solution
Fighting Style: Versatile - when wielding a versatile weapon in two hands, you may use STR + DEX - 1 (maximum 5) for attack and damage rolls instead of the attribute you would normally use.

Result
This fighting style is strictly inferior for damage when compared to the other styles. However, a user can hit their maximum modifier with a combined strength and dexterity mod of +6. 16/16, 18/14, or 12/20 would all work. This would enable the character to choose a wider variety of potential builds.

Bow + Longsword becomes possible without sacrificing effectiveness with one or the other.
Users can raise additional attributes sooner and take additional feats without losing progression.
Versatile weapons become a compelling option for Gish characters and anyone proficient with medium but not heavy armor, so long as they can gain access to this style.
Longsword becomes a very good option for a fighter who doesn't have maximum stats yet.

lunaticfringe
2017-08-17, 12:40 PM
I just allow versatile weapons wielded with 2 hands to work with the 2nd bullet point under GWM. I'm AFB but I believe they already work with the first.

Fighter/Ranger/Pal takes Dueling & GWM. High AC targets they swing 1 Hand and benefit from Dueling. On lower AC foes they use a 2 hand grip and mess stuff up with GWM.

Haven't come across any problems so far.

Easy_Lee
2017-08-17, 01:03 PM
I just allow versatile weapons wielded with 2 hands to work with the 2nd bullet point under GWM. I'm AFB but I believe they already work with the first.

Fighter/Ranger/Pal takes Dueling & GWM. High AC targets they swing 1 Hand and benefit from Dueling. On lower AC foes they use a 2 hand grip and mess stuff up with GWM.

Haven't come across any problems so far.

Well, like I said, that makes versatile useful but doesn't fix the whole strength - dexterity thing.

lunaticfringe
2017-08-17, 01:25 PM
Switch Hitters should probably grab Archery. It's basically +4 Dex to hit. + A 2hander and GWM (or a Versatile if your @ my table, but 2H is still better) for Melee Murder. SS is still a solid choice if you can get 16 Dex except for on tough monsters.

I get what your saying, I guess I just don't care for this particular piece o brew. No offence intended.

Easy_Lee
2017-08-17, 01:32 PM
I get what your saying, I guess I just don't care for this particular piece o brew. No offence intended.

None taken. It's one of those weird mechanical things that doesn't bother everyone.

Lombra
2017-08-17, 01:43 PM
I would hella love a system that uses both strength and dexterity to fight, but your FS has the potential to max out attack roll and damage bonus from level one. I like that it encourage a realistical but not common combination of scores, but I can see balance issues in the first and a half tier of play.

I was thinking of a rework of the system that always uses strength to damage roll and dexterity to the attack roll, but obvious MADness problems come to mind, especially when casters are mainly SAD, and already are the most "powerful and varied" option.

suplee215
2017-08-17, 02:03 PM
In my experience most people who go shield and broad do take the versatile weapons due partly due to the iconic nature of those weapons and the small possibility of having your shied taken for some reason but not your weapon. I think a small niche benefit is enough to justify it, not everything needs an option "equal" to others. Also, I feel like giving another benefit to the longsword, battleaxe and warhammer will only widen the gap between them and weapons like the flail, warpick, or morningstar. As for the dex and str being needed for fighting, I just think it is too hard to do that without making every class MAD. One of the benefits of the fighters is how SAD it is. Basically, it's one of those things that while it make sense when talking about it makes me go "but it'll make the game much more complicated". Overall I agree that the way ability scores work ignore large overlap in them (even in the mental skills) but anything too realistic is hard to do in a number based system. I think the minor benefits of going both (such as you can play a dex based character but can't jump and being on tall buildings might be problematic without good str for athletics if you want to be a ninja or something like that and not having dex hurts a lot due to saves, nonarmor ac, etc.) are enough to encourage it without making characters too MAD.

Theodoxus
2017-08-17, 03:37 PM
Couple things...

1st - I like the fighting style. To refute Lomba's problem with a max'd attack/damage bonus, it's at a cost of higher damage or higher AC. Unless your DM is particularly generous, it wouldn't work with dueling (and if adopted, would probably put to rest the two-handed versatile dueling style shenanigans (though an explicit "this does not work with versatile weapons used two-handed" on the dueling style would be great too).) It's the kind of balance initiative I like to see. Heck, I'd rather GWM as -5 AC and +10 Damage... basically a super reckless attack. Trading accuracy for power is kinda meh. Trading defense for offense though makes sense. But I digress...

2nd - I've found the best switchhitter to be a monk (usually a wood elf for the bennies) that uses a longbow for range, and staff/unarmed strikes for melee.

I'm AFB, is there a versatile piercing weapon that deals 1d8/1d10? Only thing I can think of is spear, but that's a die smaller...