How reasonable is Unearthed Arcana?

[Calemyr]

Okay, here's a quick background: Just got into my first 5e campaign, where I'll be playing a warlock. I like the playstyle of the class, but I don't much care for the patrons provided. (Though, I will admit, there's some attraction to playing a Great Old One Bladelock in the style of Bloodborne.) I was really looking for some secondary options when I came across Unearthed Arcana, which provided the Hexblade and Celestial patrons. Hexblade has a very appealing (and SAD) mage knight tone, while Celestial (despite not exactly being my thing) would fit the campaign surprisingly well (assuming a dragonborn can use Bahamut as their celestial patron).

The DM has stated no 3rd party content. What does UA count as, though? It is done by the same group, but it won't be "official" until the book comes out in November.

I will, of course, be asking the DM about this, but I don't have his contact info and I won't be able to ask him until about 5 minutes before the game starts. I was hoping to get a sense of the validity of the request before I do ask him, and to figure out if its worth the effort preparing potential re-specs for the character ahead of time.

[NecroDancer]

UA is pretty balanced however it was not made with multiclassing in mind. As long as you don't use UA with multiclassing you should be fine.

[Arcangel4774]

UA is pretty balanced. Especially if you refrain from multuclassing. That being said, some things are on the strong side. Undying light warlock, the original favored soul sorcerer, and lore wizard come to mind as being a bit too much.

That being said, you haven't focused on any of those, so you should be fine.

[nickl_2000]

I'm going to give a somewhat opposing opinion here. Whether UA is or is not balanced isn't really relevant.


You will only have 5 minutes from the time you talk to the DM and the time that you start playing. That is not enough time to re-do a character. So, it seems to me that you have two choices
1) Forget the UA completely and go with something that you know the DM will allow
2) Make two characters, one with the UA content in it and one without.

You are asking about reasonable UA (in my opinion) and I would allow it, but I'm not DMing. So, if you really want to play UA, I would suggest you go with option 2 and have a backup character just in case.

[Calemyr]

I'm going to give a somewhat opposing opinion here. Whether UA is or is not balanced isn't really relevant.


You will only have 5 minutes from the time you talk to the DM and the time that you start playing. That is not enough time to re-do a character. So, it seems to me that you have two choices
1) Forget the UA completely and go with something that you know the DM will allow
2) Make two characters, one with the UA content in it and one without.

You are asking about reasonable UA (in my opinion) and I would allow it, but I'm not DMing. So, if you really want to play UA, I would suggest you go with option 2 and have a backup character just in case.

I agree. The plan was, if UA is generally accepted as viable and not unbalanced splat, I would have three versions of the character prepared:
Great Old One Bladelock - Basically Bloodborne, complete with a shapeshifting weapon and a ranged attack in the off hand.
Hexblade Bladelock - A merchant with a magic sword that is convinced the it can make anyone a hero, even a merchant.
Celestial Chainlock - Champion of Bahamut and Backup Cleric (since I showed up just as Bahamut became a main factor of the plot, it kinda just works).
Then just let the DM decide whether he'd want pure core, a comedy-relief gish, or a team-friendly character with ties to the current plotline.

If UA was dismissed as too experimental to be used in a fairly serious campaign, I'll just go with Bloodborne. Not my favorite of the bunch, but I could certainly see some fun to be had from it.

[rbstr]

Most UA stuff isn't too bad. And even the overpowered stuff usually isn't actually that bad in play (see Lore Wizard. Outside of the whiteroom it's not the apocalypse some make it out to be)

If the DM looks at you options individually:
The celestial is fine...maybe even a bit under-powered. Some people don't like the idea of good patrons for...reasons? Bad reasons, mostly.
IMO the Hexblade is powercreep to allow a fullcaster to melee with their casting stat like that. Especially along with all the rest of the first level feature. It doesn't end up making a character that's way more strong. But it's enough to make it questionable as is.

[alchahest]

hexblade has some really nice melee juice but is capped by spell slots and reliance on feats for better armor. they feel certainly more potent than other types of bladelocks, but don't do as much damage as paladins, or tank as well, conventionally (in the revision - the first pass had the smites which were certainly more potent).

[Lombra]

Can't you just ask your DM? Personally I rate UA a step higher then homebrew and definately lower than published official material, but for sure it is not third party content in the literal sense.

[j_spencer93]

hexblade has some really nice melee juice but is capped by spell slots and reliance on feats for better armor. they feel certainly more potent than other types of bladelocks, but don't do as much damage as paladins, or tank as well, conventionally (in the revision - the first pass had the smites which were certainly more potent).

Its for these very reasons i thought the Hexblade was one of the best at being balanced. You get to attack with your casting state in melee, but don't really gain any better armor to protect you in that case lol

[alchahest]

yeah - they're not super powerful but they are also not underpowered. they offer a great arcane gish option to EKs and Valor bards.

[clash]

In general I follow the rule that ua is allowed, but only the most recent version of that particular ua. So only the most recent favored soul. Only the most recent Kensai or arcane archer. Even int he case of the monster slayer archetype only the ranger one as it is more recent than the fighter attempt.

[rbstr]

Its for these very reasons i thought the Hexblade was one of the best at being balanced. You get to attack with your casting state in melee, but don't really gain any better armor to protect you in that case lol

You do to get better armor - you get medium armor and shield proficiency. (plus martial weapons too)
And then you get a lot of extras: Casting-stat melee, and a spell-slot free curse for bonus damage and an expanded crit range.
That really gets beyond Valor Bard's or Bladesinger's early features buy a lot. The hexblade is the only SAD one among them and does far and away the most damage.
(And, seriously, compare this to any other 1st level patron feature. It's not even close)

Past that it's a big mistake to not consider the non-melee advantages of a Warlock archetype when comparing against a Paladin. The warlock gets 5th level spells when the Paladin is getting level 3 spells. The warlock gets all the way up to 9th-level spells when the paladin tops out at 5. The overall spellpoint value the warlock has is much, much greater than the Paladins in a properly balanced campaign.
The paladin damn well better be much better at hitting things with a sword regardless of Warlock archetype choice.

Like I was saying, it's not super powerful, but SAD melee/fullcasting is absolutely powercreep.

[j_spencer93]

You have a point (i didn't notice they got medium armor). A paladin does outclass them in hitting and damage, which i think is how it should be. Wizards and sorcerers beat them at versatility, so not overlap there. The warlock hexblade excels at the gish though, i think , even better then the Eldritch Knight. Bladesinger idk, only had great experience with them so can't say much (oddly had one in the same game as a hexblade).

[Easy_Lee]

Hexblade is the best gish as written due to being SAD. That opens up capabilities no one else has.

Using UA, you could make a SAD longsword-wielding blade warlock with UA Elven Accuracy and medium armor. Cast darkness, use devil's sight, make two attacks with advantage and roll 3D20 per attack.

UA is not always balanced.

[alchahest]

Certainly not always balanced. Specifically not balanced for multiclassing, even.

I don't agree that Hexblade is SAD. It doesn't gain anything defensively from charisma. medium armor is the weakest form of tanking, and if you don't have dex to pump up light armor, or str + a feat for heavy armor, you definitely will need con, to tank the hits you'll be taking. And if you plan on maintaining hex, you'll want con anyways, as you'll be up close if you're making use of your hexblade features, and when you're up close, and don't have a high AC, you're making concentration checks.

[Calemyr]

Hexblade is the best gish as written due to being SAD. That opens up capabilities no one else has.

Using UA, you could make a SAD longsword-wielding blade warlock with UA Elven Accuracy and medium armor. Cast darkness, use devil's sight, make two attacks with advantage and roll 3D20 per attack.

UA is not always balanced.

That's not a catch of the Hexblade kit, though. You can pull that off with Eldritch Blast regardless of pact or patron, still be SAD, and get twice as many attacks. 12d20 really ought to hit the target at least once. Besides, Rapier and Longsword are tied for the highest damage one-handed weapons, so a slightly MAD (who dumps DEX?) finesse blade is could use that trick almost as effectively as a Hexblade... blade.

Where Hexblade really shines is in harrying one tough enemy at a time. Curse grants better damage, better defense, and a little self healing against one target. Shadow Hound negates most cover bonuses and weaken's hiding against one target. The higher AC is effective against everyone. The weapon proficiency is useless for a blade, however, as you're always proficient with your pact weapon.


Certainly not always balanced. Specifically not balanced for multiclassing, even.

I don't agree that Hexblade is SAD. It doesn't gain anything defensively from charisma. medium armor is the weakest form of tanking, and if you don't have dex to pump up light armor, or str + a feat for heavy armor, you definitely will need con, to tank the hits you'll be taking. And if you plan on maintaining hex, you'll want con anyways, as you'll be up close if you're making use of your hexblade features, and when you're up close, and don't have a high AC, you're making concentration checks.

Well, yes and no. There's nothing that restricts the curse bonuses to melee. You can use all of it with your Eldritch Blast. The extra damage, the improved crit, the post-kill healing... even the armor upgrade defends against ranged attacks as well as melee. Sure, you've got to start at 30 feet to cast the curse, but from there you're free to back off and pelt the enemy with lasers for the next 10 rounds. Or use darkness and Devil's sight to have advantage for 9. And if you're a half-elf... Anyway, you can be a hexblade blaster and be quite effective that way as well, I think.

[Easy_Lee]

Certainly not always balanced. Specifically not balanced for multiclassing, even.

I don't agree that Hexblade is SAD. It doesn't gain anything defensively from charisma. medium armor is the weakest form of tanking, and if you don't have dex to pump up light armor, or str + a feat for heavy armor, you definitely will need con, to tank the hits you'll be taking. And if you plan on maintaining hex, you'll want con anyways, as you'll be up close if you're making use of your hexblade features, and when you're up close, and don't have a high AC, you're making concentration checks.

Medium armor with 14 dexterity has the same AC as studded leather with 20 dexterity. For additional defense, many blade warlocks use Armor of Agathys; let's not forget that this is a spellcasting class with comparable to full progression and many invocations to shore up weaknesses or add options.

[Falcon X]

UA counts as first-party content. It is made by the same company that makes the Player's Handbook.
However, it is considered in the testing phase. They release this to players so we can comment on it before they publish it.

Most DMs I know treat it as a non-core sourcebook that they judge on a case-by-case basis. For example, only about half would allow a Theurge Wizard, while all would allow the updated ranger.
In truth, it's not a whole lot better than homebrew sub-classes (that are intelligently designed). However, they get credibility because they are from the company.

[polymphus]

For the record, UA isn't third-party. It's produced and released by WotC, albeit informally.

It's probably good to check with your DM anyway, but it doesn't seem like it breaks his rule.

[alchahest]

I think UA, like everything, needs the DM's go ahead, if for no reason other than to know what to expect when planning enconuters. balance aside, if everyone plays a paladin, you probably aren't going to plan around a whole lot of low DC saving throws, and will likely aim for more high attack bonus high damage enemies. As an example. do your DM a courtesy (and help him or her build you a fun game) and pass by any optional rules / additional books by them first

[Calemyr]

I asked. The answer was a resounding "Yeah, sure.". So I get to play a character concept that really amuses me: a decidedly non-combat merchant "cursed" with a sentient sword that is convinced it can turn anyone into a hero and is using the (unwilling) merchant as a proof of concept. To make matters more amusing, I'm stepping onto the campaign at level 12 - meaning this guy has already endured more than his share of adventures and still doesn't like adventuring, he just does it because he knows events will drag him into it anyway and might as well step onto the cart while you can still steer. Just this cynically fatalistic guy who dreams of the days when an exciting day in his life was doing inventory and balancing the books on the same afternoon but, because of a sword he couldn't pay people to take from him, he's instead wandering through the most unpleasant corners of the world because that blasted sword won't shut up otherwise.

Yeah. I'm going to have such fun with this...

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't think I've seen anything in UA that would be severely disruptive. 5e's balance is tight enough and ingrained enough (and, possibly, I'm used to other games/editions enough) that even the builds people like to complain about seem fine. That said, UA is kind of all over the place in terms of power and polish. You're not going to stop all over the game/be stomped all over, but you might wind up looking stronger than your friends (coughHexbladecough) or feeling like your subclass isn't giving you anything useful (coughPhoenixSorcerercough)

[Ixidor92]

The only thing from UA that gives me pause out of everything wizards has released so far is the Mystic class. But otherwise I doubt there will be anything that is obviously overpowered or underpowered.

[Vaz]

IMO the Hexblade is powercreep to allow a fullcaster to melee with their casting stat like that. Especially along with all the rest of the first level feature. It doesn't end up making a character that's way more strong. But it's enough to make it questionable as is.
And yet it's still weaker than an Eldritch Blast user, which can deal more damage from further away.

[Easy_Lee]

And yet it's still weaker than an Eldritch Blast user, which can deal more damage from further away.

Assuming the hexblade doesn't have a magic weapon with a special effect. And that's a big assumption. Especially considering there are invocations allowing hexblade to smite.

[Vaz]

Assuming the hexblade doesn't have a magic weapon with a special effect. And that's a big assumption. Especially considering there are invocations allowing hexblade to smite.

You're correct there are. IIRC the EB damage age still outweighs a melee user who otherwise has to rely on a Smite Crit to out damage it. Been a while since I've read it.

[90sMusic]

UA isn't third party. Even adventure league with it's stringent rules allow at least one supplement that isn't a core book to be used with it. As long as you're only taking stuff from one UA and nothing else, should be fine.

[Easy_Lee]

You're correct there are. IIRC the EB damage age still outweighs a melee user who otherwise has to rely on a Smite Crit to out damage it. Been a while since I've read it.

At high levels it does. At level 5, a fully invested blade pact hexblade with a longsword in two hands can do 2 * (2D10 + CHA), exactly equal to agonizing eldritch blast and with the same invocation cost. He'll have to keep investing to stay competitive at level 11 and beyond, but there are lots of invocations in UA to back him up.

[rbstr]

More damage, actually, since he can take improved pact weapon for the +1/+1.

I feel like it's hard to really make Hexblade comparisons until we see the changes the class has had in combination with the new invocations.

The other thing is, a blast-lock doing more damage damage than Hexblade is not evidence against the powercreepy nature of the Hexblades 1st level features. That's just a whataboutism - one misguided thing does not make another OK.

[Easy_Lee]

More damage, actually, since he can take improved pact weapon for the +1/+1.

Right, and that was my point. Magic weapons put the blade warlock ahead with the hexblade patron. And the hexblade is the only gish who gets to use his spellcasting stat for weapon attacks.

I don't think it's imbalanced for gish characters to be SAD like almost everyone else. But it's noteworthy that they're the only gish like this. It gives them a massive edge.

[alchahest]

It should probably be noted that they are significantly more fragile than EKs and Paladins, though. EKs have shield spell spam / heavy armor+shield, where Paladins have heavy armor+shield, healing, and much higher saves, and both are a step up on Hit Die sizes.

so yeah, Hexblades may be higher damage gishes, especially if they don't use their spells for things like armor of agathys, but can't stick around nearly as long as the other two

[Easy_Lee]

It should probably be noted that they are significantly more fragile than EKs and Paladins, though. EKs have shield spell spam / heavy armor+shield, where Paladins have heavy armor+shield, healing, and much higher saves, and both are a step up on Hit Die sizes.

so yeah, Hexblades may be higher damage gishes, especially if they don't use their spells for things like armor of agathys, but can't stick around nearly as long as the other two

I'm not so sure about that. Hexblades are full casters. One hypnotic pattern or hold person can turn an encounter firmly in their favor. If you're talking about AC, a pure Hexblade with 14 dexterity can come very close, not to mention that they can afford additional feats with their SAD.

[alchahest]

I'm not so sure about that. Hexblades are full casters. One hypnotic pattern or hold person can turn an encounter firmly in their favor. If you're talking about AC, a pure Hexblade with 14 dexterity can come very close, not to mention that they can afford additional feats with their SAD.

I love using hold person with my EK - smack three dudes, action surge, hold person on them, making their saves at disadvantage.

[Tanarii]

Its first party content, by definition. Since it comes from WotC directly.

But at absolute best, it's "playtesting" quality. Generally that means poorly balanced, clunky mechanics, or unexpected interactions with existing rules. I've yet to see a player option I'd allow to be used as-is in a game I was running. Unless it was a game session explicitly designated for playtesting stuff.

[ZorroGames]

Its first party content, by definition. Since it comes from WotC directly.

But at absolute best, it's "playtesting" quality. Generally that means poorly balanced, clunky mechanics, or unexpected interactions with existing rules. I've yet to see a player option I'd allow to be used as-is in a game I was running. Unless it was a game session explicitly designated for playtesting stuff.

This seems rational. Lots of aircraft have gone into testing but were not fielded.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This seems rational. Lots of aircraft have gone into testing but were not fielded.
Meh, the worst that can happen is that someone has a grumpy session. A thoughtful initial read and a willingness to tweak if necessary will take you a long ways.