3.5 Unarmed Strike Item Familiar Optimization Question

[Alent]

So, in fiddling around with a TO concept for Gooddragon1's Full BAB Singleton thread, I noticed something odd and realized I don't understand the Magic Weapon rules as well as I thought I did.

Adapting an idea from the Tippy's Terrifically Terrible Trial Thread, I wanted to make my Unarmed Strike my Item Familiar. My understanding of a way to get this trick to work is to make Unarmed Strike [count as/into] Masterwork somehow, and thus add enchantments to it directly. Once exceeding a certain GP value of enchant, it qualifies to be an Item Familiar. A little ridiculous, and maybe in need of more refinement to make it work properly, but effective enough as long as you're okay with your hand going Vampire Hunter D on you.

This goes all the way around the expected way to get enchantments on your unarmed strike, the Amulet of Mighty Fists, and (at least the SRD version) of the amulet, not expecting this combination, says it grants an enhancement bonus to your unarmed strike.

So here's where my odd scenario happens: We've got a +1 a/b/c/d Unarmed Strike with a weapon crystal, and the Amulet of Mighty Fists is a +1 e/f with a different weapon crystal, so what does my attack profile look like?

Is my unarmed strike:
+1 a/b/c/d/e/f Unarmed Strike with one or both crystals (no stacking, but each unique enhancement applying)
+2 a/b/c/d/e/f with both crystals (Full stacking)
+1 a/b/c/d with one crystal (no stacking what-so-ever.)

I can see good arguments for all three options, but I'm pretty inexperienced at this level of op-fu, so I could use some help.

[Darrin]

My understanding of a way to get this trick to work is to make Unarmed Strike [count as/into] Masterwork somehow, and thus add enchantments to it directly.


I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to do. As far as I'm aware, there's not a legal RAW way to make your unarmed strike count as masterwork. There are a few ways to add weapon properties to your unarmed strike, but the two most popular methods that I'm aware of are the Kensai PrC and the Necklace of Natural Weapons/Attacks. A Kensai does this by expending XP, but it's problematic because the designers insist on charging additional XP for unarmed strikes because they think the Kensai's "fists" have to be treated as separate weapons. There are a lot of confusing rulings on how unarmed strikes are supposed to work, but this is the only example in the rules where an unarmed strike is treated as two separate weapons instead of a single abstract striking surface.

The Necklace of Natural Weapons first appeared in Savage Species, which is a "3.25" book (it was released between 3.0/3.5 and has sort of a mix of rules between the two editions). It was "reprinted" later in an online article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) as the Necklace of Natural Attacks, and some people consider this a "3.5 update" even though the text is the same (other than the slight name change). In this case, your unarmed strike gains weapon properties, but for the purposes of making it an item familiar, it's the necklace that would become the item familiar rather than your unarmed strike.



Once exceeding a certain GP value of enchant, it qualifies to be an Item Familiar. A little ridiculous, and maybe in need of more refinement to make it work properly, but effective enough as long as you're okay with your hand going Vampire Hunter D on you.


In the case of the Kensai, the Kensai isn't spending GP, so the enchanted unarmed strike doesn't have a GP value per se. In the case of a Necklace of Natural Weapons/Attacks, it's the necklace becoming the item familiar rather than the unarmed strike.



This goes all the way around the expected way to get enchantments on your unarmed strike, the Amulet of Mighty Fists, and (at least the SRD version) of the amulet, not expecting this combination, says it grants an enhancement bonus to your unarmed strike.


Amulet of Mighty Fists grants an enhancement bonus, yes, but it does not grant weapon properties. That's what you need the Necklace for. The Amulet also doesn't change the GP value of your unarmed strike.



So here's where my odd scenario happens: We've got a +1 a/b/c/d Unarmed Strike with a weapon crystal, and the Amulet of Mighty Fists is a +1 e/f with a different weapon crystal, so what does my attack profile look like?


I... don't know... because I'm not sure how you've added +1 a/b/c/d to your unarmed strike? Some groups just handwave this and allow unarmed strikes to be enchanted directly, but that's getting into House Rule territory.

I also don't see a RAW way to add a weapon crystal to an unarmed strike. Actually, there's some wiggle-room there. Least crystals won't work because natural weapons are not masterwork, but the text for augment crystals say you can add a lesser crystal to any weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus, so you could dip Kensai to get your unarmed strike as a +1 weapon and then attach an augment crystal to it by RAW. However, there's nothing in the text that really allows you to attach weapon crystals to natural weapons, so you may run into some DMs calling ixnay on the RAI there.

Next issue is Amulet can do +1 but not the e/f or the augment crystal. Necklace can do the +1 e/f, but neither the Amulet or Necklace count as a "weapon" for the purposes of augment crystals. (However, I can easily see many DMs would handwave this and allow augment crystals to be attached to the Amulet/Necklace.) As far as stacking weapon properties from two different sources... assuming you did both Kensai + Necklace, the two different +1 enhancement bonuses would not stack (you'd use the highest enhancement bonus), but you'd get a/b/c/d/e/f properties on your unarmed strikes.

As far as making a natural weapon into an item familiar... I'd probably look into grafts. They have GP value, and while once they are attached they don't count as magic items, there's nothing in the rules that says they can't be enchanted as a magic weapon.

[Necroticplague]

As far as making a natural weapon into an item familiar... I'd probably look into grafts. They have GP value, and while once they are attached they don't count as magic items, there's nothing in the rules that says they can't be enchanted as a magic weapon.

That's not how rules work. Unless they say you can do something, you can't. There's nothing in the rules that says humans don't have an insta-death touch attack, either.

However, on a relevant note, there is the Weapon Graft graft, which is exactly what it sounds like (replacing a hand with a weapon). So you could make the weapon an item familiar, then graft it to yourself. However, you have to do it in that order, as Item Familiar has to be a 'permanent magic item', and grafts aren't magic items.

[Forrestfire]

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to do. As far as I'm aware, there's not a legal RAW way to make your unarmed strike count as masterwork.

As far as I can tell, there's a somewhat silly, but rules-legal way. Namely:

Unarmed strikes are listed as weapons in the "Weapon Descriptions" section of the Player's Handbook (p. 121), and they're also listed as weapons on Table 7–5: Weapons (p. 116). Specifically, they're listed with the same market price as a club or quarterstaff. In the unarmed strike's section, it also says "An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon."

https://i.gyazo.com/dd3d25d42155982ca407b06ff66eb1ea.png

Like any similar weapon, you could get it for a price of "—", or add 300gp to that market price for a masterwork version. Presumably, it may also be possible to get special materials, though I'm not sure which would apply to an unarmed strike, since most require metal or wood.

I rarely see this quirk of rules used, but it seems like it works here at the very least, if we're going for strict, silly RAW analysis.

[Alent]

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to do.

Forrestfire has the gist of it. I thought there was more to it than that, so I'm a little surprised it's that simple. I thought some other cost adding shenanigans had to happen, on top of it.

Having pondered it some, I'm not even sure the concept of buying a MW Unarmed strike is ridiculous. "I get my body alchemically treated to condition my body into a Masterwork Unarmed Strike." feels fluffy enough to work. It's certainly not the weirdest thing I've seen done with a body in D&D. (Grafts, spiderhand, Skinsend...)


The Necklace of Natural Weapons first appeared in Savage Species, which is a "3.25" book (it was released between 3.0/3.5 and has sort of a mix of rules between the two editions). It was "reprinted" later in an online article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) as the Necklace of Natural Attacks, and some people consider this a "3.5 update" even though the text is the same (other than the slight name change). In this case, your unarmed strike gains weapon properties, but for the purposes of making it an item familiar, it's the necklace that would become the item familiar rather than your unarmed strike.

Amulet of Mighty Fists grants an enhancement bonus, yes, but it does not grant weapon properties. That's what you need the Necklace for. The Amulet also doesn't change the GP value of your unarmed strike.

Ah! I misunderstood how the Amulet enhancement bonus worked. That is helpful, thank you.

Although... I notice the example one has Throwing and Returning on it... That's... thrown unarmed strike is RAI? :smallconfused:


Next issue is Amulet can do +1 but not the e/f or the augment crystal. Necklace can do the +1 e/f, but neither the Amulet or Necklace count as a "weapon" for the purposes of augment crystals. (However, I can easily see many DMs would handwave this and allow augment crystals to be attached to the Amulet/Necklace.) As far as stacking weapon properties from two different sources... assuming you did both Kensai + Necklace, the two different +1 enhancement bonuses would not stack (you'd use the highest enhancement bonus), but you'd get a/b/c/d/e/f properties on your unarmed strikes.

Ah, good point on the crystal. I was picturing the amulet as a "counts as weapon" item. It probably wouldn't be able to accept a wand chamber, either, then?

Anyway, thanks for clarifying stacking rules for me!

[Darrin]

I notice the example one has Throwing and Returning on it... That's... thrown unarmed strike is RAI? :smallconfused:


That's the exact text from Savage Species, so it's 100% RAW. On the forums, this is usually referred to as "Rocket Punch!" (particularly when it's on a Warforged Monk). I've also seen it referred to as "Hadouken!" (from Street Fighter fame). While it sounds silly, I've never run into a DM that has said "No!" to a monk that wants to add throwing/returning to his unarmed strikes. There's also the blood wind spell in the Spell Compendium that does something similar.

Then there's the "Morph Ball Trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?128988-The-Morph-Ball-A-potentially-humerous-trick)". You can also add the Sizing property, which doesn't have an official name, but I like to think of it as "Attack of the 50-Foot Monk".



Ah, good point on the crystal. I was picturing the amulet as a "counts as weapon" item. It probably wouldn't be able to accept a wand chamber, either, then?


If you asked most DMs if the amulet/necklace comes with a slot for augment crystals, the majority of them would probably say, "Yes."

Wand Chamber would be a harder sell as the text specifies the weapon must "have a solid hilt or handle at least 6 inches in length" (Dungeonscape p. 33).

[Necroticplague]

Then there's the "Morph Ball Trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?128988-The-Morph-Ball-A-potentially-humerous-trick)". You can also add the Sizing property, which doesn't have an official name, but I like to think of it as "Attack of the 50-Foot Monk".


I never got why people thought Sizing an Unarmed Strike would make the monk change size. Sizing changes the size of the weapon, not the wielder. So Battletoads-style limb enlargement while attacking seems more appropriate.

[Darrin]

I never got why people thought Sizing an Unarmed Strike would make the monk change size. Sizing changes the size of the weapon, not the wielder. So Battletoads-style limb enlargement while attacking seems more appropriate.

It's predicated on the idea that a monk's unarmed strike represents his entire body, or at the very least it's abstracted to include any available striking surface on his body. It's also:

1) Well-recognized as a genre trope.
2) Makes about as much sense as any of the other unarmed strike rules.
3) Monks are underpowered, so why not give them this?
4) It's funny.