Is it just me, or are Poisons and Potions really bland and under-powered?

[shadowkat678]

I could see so much potential with alchemy, but really? You buy poison and it has a DC of...10? Not even with half damage on a save? Is the entire world filled with Rasputins? I mean. Yeah. There are more expensive ones. And then there's the Potion of Poison...but STILL!

Not to mention the lack of verity of the type. What about ingested poisons to use for assassination? Would those have a higher DC? What about knock out poisons, and...there's just so much you could do.

What about ingredients? How much would a Dragon Heart cost and what could it be used for? How would cost even work? Surely there's more to it than what it is in the handbook and DM guild. Common creature yet powerful? Is the ingredient from something fairly rare yet weak? How would the cost come up with it, and how would that affect the end product?

And why do these things take so long to make??? They really shouldn't take over a week once you have everything. And what about potions? What about things with more than one effect?

SOMEONE has come up with some home brew stuff, but I've searched and searched to come up with hardly anything.

I will say there's some pretty cool 3.5 stuff. Kinda mad they didn't carry it over. I would love to expand alchemy for any characters who love using poisons and potions and stuff. Or for a stealth campaign...but man. There's nothing out here. :(

[nickl_2000]

I don't have a lot, but i did do some homebrew poison stuff in a low resource campaign that I'm writing. I'll share in the morning when I have now time and am on a computer instead of my phone.

[King539]

There's the poison section in the DMG. Purple Worm poison is really expensive but deals something like 12d6 damage.

[Trask]

"poisons" in 5e tend to function more like getting your enemy drunk or doing some moderate amount of damage to them. Not a lot of poisons that make you bubble froth from purple lips. Id prefer if there were high end poisons that just straight up KILLED you if you fail the save. Animals in our mundane world do that. It would make poisons something to be actually feared again like they were in older editions, not to say that every single poison needs to just stop your hearts beating but giving something as lethal as poison a bit of its bite back would be nice.

I mean seriously, purple worm poison is as powerful as you get in terms of damage, and 12d6 is nowhere near enough to kill characters outright when they fight purple worms, meanwhile a venomous snakebite could kill the strongest man alive in our world.

[Foxhound438]

"poisons" in 5e tend to function more like getting your enemy drunk or doing some moderate amount of damage to them. Not a lot of poisons that make you bubble froth from purple lips. Id prefer if there were high end poisons that just straight up KILLED you if you fail the save. Animals in our mundane world do that. It would make poisons something to be actually feared again like they were in older editions, not to say that every single poison needs to just stop your hearts beating but giving something as lethal as poison a bit of its bite back would be nice.

I mean seriously, purple worm poison is as powerful as you get in terms of damage, and 12d6 is nowhere near enough to kill characters outright when they fight purple worms, meanwhile a venomous snakebite could kill the strongest man alive in our world.

that's just because humans IRL have less than 2d4 HP. Same reason a single dagger attack can kill you. Your character in DnD is supposed to be able to survive against massive damage, like how huge greatsword doesn't kill your character either, but IRL a big enough sword could cut clean through you and multiple other people.

[Eko]

that's just because humans IRL have less than 2d4 HP. Same reason a single dagger attack can kill you. Your character in DnD is supposed to be able to survive against massive damage, like how huge greatsword doesn't kill your character either, but IRL a big enough sword could cut clean through you and multiple other people.

This is true, to some extent. The lower-end poisons might not be meant to "outright kill" a person. Imagine getting food poisoning - you're probably not gonna die from that if you get enough rest and drink enough water. Or if you drink too much alcohol, follow a similar process and you'll be fine, generally. Not all poison is meant to outright kill, just disable for a while.

Like most aspects of D&D, what is promised to us is what's in the books, but it's really up to the DM to give us (the players) the rest. The DM can, at any moment, declare that some specific poison will kill ANYTHING. It's better if there's some kind of explanation as to why it does that, but there doesn't need to be. Can you still claim that this poison is "bland"? I wouldn't think so. I can imagine an entire campaign based on either getting a hold of this poison, or preventing someone else from doing so.

Keep in mind, also, that enemies are often equipped with poison. As a PC I would not like to be the target of the aforementioned poison!

W.R.T potions, I do agree to an extent. A lot of them are pretty lame, and 50 gold pieces for 1d4 + 4 health recovery is pretty insane considering the in-game economy. When I DM, I tend to distribute fewer potions, but more powerful/interesting ones. These range from weak-ish effects like: "You gain a flying speed of 30 feet" to effects that could turn the tide of a major boss fight, such as: "You recover one hit die + CON MOD per turn, for a minute".

I've also had lots of fun as a DM with random potion tables. PCs come across a strange potion, and fail to identify it (Probably an Arcana check). If they drink it, I just roll on one of 4 tables. Effects are usually re-worded spell effects, anything from Foresight to Fireball)

[strangebloke]

that's just because humans IRL have less than 2d4 HP. Same reason a single dagger attack can kill you. Your character in DnD is supposed to be able to survive against massive damage, like how huge greatsword doesn't kill your character either, but IRL a big enough sword could cut clean through you and multiple other people.

Only if HP is meat. (Let's not have that debate now though)

I agree with the sentiment. It's worth noting, too, that dnd poison isn't necessarily like real world poison.

There's tons of lists of poisons. Treat each one as a spell with expensive material components and a skill check to unlock... Make the DC based off of the brewer's intelligence. Done.

[nickl_2000]

Here is what I have for my homebrewed, most of it is adapted from a list I found for 3.5


Poison List
Blood Fire
A reddish-brown sticky paste, this poison has seen a fair amount of use. Once injured, the poison begins igniting the blood, causing a creature to quickly burn from within. Often the toxin burns through the victim so quickly and intensely that the remains are little more than charred bones.

There are several methods of creating Blood Fire poison, although the most common involves the fruit of a desert cactus soaked in the saliva of giant lizards mixed with distilled alcohols. After several days of soaking the fruit is removed from the mixture and ground into a paste.

Knowledge Check: DC 12
Category: Injury
Saving Throw: Constitution DC 12
Frequency: one Round
Effect: 5 (1d6+1) Fire damage

Concoction of the Pallid Serpent
Created from the paste made by grinding up leaves of the Cat’s Breath plant, and combined with the pungent juice made from King’s Pear seeds, this milky substance has a rather intoxicating aroma that often is mistaken for cooked meat. The poison has a slightly bitter taste, yet it often goes unnoticed. Upon ingestion, the victim begins experiencing terrible headaches and visual hallucinations. They often see things twisting and warping, with vile and hideous creatures seeking to cause them harm. Those in the throes of the poison often lash out at those around them, believing that they have suddenly been surrounded by monstrosities. A few unfortunate souls have survived the experience, and the mark of paranoia often follows them until the end of their days.

Knowledge Check: DC 14
Category: Injury
Saving Throw: DC 15 Constitution
Frequency: 1 Round
Primary Effect:2d6 psychic damage
Secondary Effect: 1 point of Wisdom damage



Ghost Blossom Extract
Created from the juice of a pale white flower that only blossoms at night, the poison elicits violent muscle contractions, often causing broken bones and shattered teeth.

Knowledge Check: DC 12
Category: Injury
Saving Throw: DC 12 Constitution
Frequency: one round
Primary Effect: 6 (2d4) poison damage


Sassone Leaf Residue
Knowledge Check: DC 16
Category: Contact
Saving Throw: DC 16 Constitution
Frequency: one round
Primary Effect: 2d12 poison damage
Secondary Effect: Poisoned for 1 hour


Hallucination Spores
Knowledge Check: DC 12
Category: Inhaled
Saving Throw: DC 12 Constitution
Frequency: one round
Primary Effect: Incapicated 1 minute
Secondary Effect: Poisoned 1 minute


Borland Berry Poison
Knowledge Check: DC 10
Category: Injury
Saving Throw: DC 10 Constitution
Frequency: one round
Primary Effect: 1d4 poison damage

Id Moss
Knowledge Check: DC 15
Category: Ingested
Saving Throw: DC 15 Constitution
Primary Effect: Causes confusion for 2 minutes rounds

Striped Toadstool
Knowledge Check: DC 11
Category: Ingested
Saving Throw: DC 11 Constitution
Primary Effect: Blinded for 1d4 hours



My ruling on the poisons is that the PC needs to make a knowledge nature check to gather the ingredients for the poisons safely. On a failure, they will will suffer some of the ill effects of the poison. Then, during a long rest, they can brew/make the poison. They get a single dosage with each brewing of the poison, and need to pass an intelligence check with the use of a poisoners kit. The DC for gathering and brewing the poison is the same and are listed in the Knowledge check.

[Beelzebubba]

In AD&D, whenever a party got a hold of poison, we used it excessively. It was *really* powerful.

That's why the rules came in about risking nicking yourself every time you use it with edged weapons.

I think it's limited for game play reasons.

[Unoriginal]

There is a whole list of diverse potions in the DMG, to dispell the "bland and under-powered" part about potions.



I will say there's some pretty cool 3.5 stuff. Kinda mad they didn't carry it over. I would love to expand alchemy for any characters who love using poisons and potions and stuff. Or for a stealth campaign...but man. There's nothing out here. :(

I'm admittedly pretty rusty on some of the 3.X rules, but I'm pretty sure alchemy wasn't developed that much in 3.X. They certainly didn't have lists of ingredients from different creatures you could combine to create new stuff. There was a list of poison, a list of minor alchemical stuff you could craft if you were a caster, and potions you needed a feat to craft.

Also those weird poisons-but-actually-not-poisons from the Book of Exhalted Guide.

[shadowkat678]

There is a whole list of diverse potions in the DMG, to dispell the "bland and under-powered" part about potions.




I'm admittedly pretty rusty on some of the 3.X rules, but I'm pretty sure alchemy wasn't developed that much in 3.X. They certainly didn't have lists of ingredients from different creatures you could combine to create new stuff. There was a list of poison, a list of minor alchemical stuff you could craft if you were a caster, and potions you needed a feat to craft.

Also those weird poisons-but-actually-not-poisons from the Book of Exhalted Guide.

I mean in expansions and stuff. Because there were so many books for that edition there were lots of possible varieties.

Also, does anyone know why I might not be receiving notifications? Because I subscribed for automatic emails. Did with all my threads, and they WERE working. For some reason though they haven't been for the past 24 hours. :/

[Tanarii]

I think it's limited for game play reasons.I think that too. Poison save or die was probably one of the most hated things by players. Which was awesome from a DM perspective, since it made them play carefully instead of carelessly. But also sucked as a player because it so often felt like a screwjob.

But I think it's also because they wanted to set default expectations.

I think they only included it as an option at all because they know not everyone wants to play goody-two-shoes heroes. But then made it kinda suck because it shouldn't be an appealing option, since the 'default' expectation is you won't play evil bastards who love poisoning things either.

That's why anything other than a basic poison is at the DMs discretion if it's available at all.

[Rogerdodger557]

For the most part, I allow the poisons from the DMG. They work, but I have the player roll to harvest, and then develop the poisons if/when he does it, and I have to be there to see the rolls. Because I don't like the suggested DC in the DMG, I plan on doing DC 10+CR. Poisonous creatures easy to kill have easy DCs. Purple Worms have a 23 DC to harvest poison from their corpse.

[shadowkat678]

Personally, I like the idea of different levels of it. Like, there's legal rat poison (as much as I hate it because it doesn't kill instantly, and then causes the death of owls and other birds. But that's another rant), which could be that DC 10 original. Then there's illegal poisons that are both more expensive and harder to get to. If found with it, could cause your character to be jailed. Yada yada.

There's injested. Contact. Gaseous. Etc. Many with just side effects like slower reflexes. Blurry vision. Sickness. Etc.

[Ixidor92]

I see a lot of people focusing on the raw poison damage available, but there's also the poisoned condition which I believe most poison does carry. Assuming you don't make your save, disadvantage on all attack rolls and ability rolls is not something you want to deal with.

[SaurOps]

The first step in making poisons more interesting would be to eliminate poison damage as a generic category and have poisons do other types of damage. You could even do this with real world poisons, like suffering acid and necrotic damage when you get tagged by a diamondback's hemotoxic venom. I know that D&D typically necrotic to mean something else, but the system can probably get through it. It's been through worse.

(While we're at it, acid damage might be better termed corrosive. Not everything that corrodes does so with hydronium ions.)


that's just because humans IRL have less than 2d4 HP. Same reason a single dagger attack can kill you. Your character in DnD is supposed to be able to survive against massive damage, like how huge greatsword doesn't kill your character either, but IRL a big enough sword could cut clean through you and multiple other people.

Potent neurotoxins wouldn't bother with trauma; they'd just lay you out and take out your ability to breathe, causing paralysis and suffocation in game terms. Fail enough saves, and you drop to 0 hit points no matter where you were before; fail even more, you die. Also, it's difficult to gauge system definitions IRL, because Ability scores, hit points and levels, they don't really have useful frames of reference in the real world.

[BurgerBeast]

How about keeping the damage as is, but making it Constitution damage instead of hit point damage. If it reduces Con to zero, the victim dies. If not, Con recovers slowly (1 point/day, or 1 point per week, or Con mod (min 1) per day or week).

I've been playing with the general idea that lethal effects be based on Constitution damage, which recovers slowly. Candidates other than poison might be falling damage, extreme weather effects, maybe even particularly lethal physical damage such as crushing walls, etc.

It more or less represents serious injury.

Some other things you might do are combine this with exhaustion, or just make poison deal exhaustion instead of damage.

[SaurOps]

How about keeping the damage as is, but making it Constitution damage instead of hit point damage. If it reduces Con to zero, the victim dies. If not, Con recovers slowly (1 point/day, or 1 point per week, or Con mod (min 1) per day or week).

I've been playing with the general idea that lethal effects be based on Constitution damage, which recovers slowly. Candidates other than poison might be falling damage, extreme weather effects, maybe even particularly lethal physical damage such as crushing walls, etc.

It more or less represents serious injury.

Some other things you might do are combine this with exhaustion, or just make poison deal exhaustion instead of damage.

Any and all of these could be used. The points where you can interfere with metabolism or structure are many and varied, and then you have magic to contend with. Creatures from the Plane of Fire could have poison or venom that sets you on fire, for example. An amusing image in the former case, as someone would have to eat it first...

[shadowkat678]

Okay, but what about antitoxins and antidotes???

[Tanarii]

I've been playing with the general idea that lethal effects be based on Constitution damage, which recovers slowly.
Why add another system for tracking lethal effects when HPs is already there for that?

[Ixidor92]

How about keeping the damage as is, but making it Constitution damage instead of hit point damage. If it reduces Con to zero, the victim dies. If not, Con recovers slowly (1 point/day, or 1 point per week, or Con mod (min 1) per day or week).

I've been playing with the general idea that lethal effects be based on Constitution damage, which recovers slowly. Candidates other than poison might be falling damage, extreme weather effects, maybe even particularly lethal physical damage such as crushing walls, etc.

From what I've seen in the monster manual, most abilities that used to deal con damage instead now reduce the hit point maximum of the character that they strike (wight's touch, vampire's bite, etc.) maybe you could do that with poison? For so many days it reduces the hit point maximum of the target by how much poison damage they took?

[Vogie]

I certainly like the idea of adding more poisons that give conditions... the DMG poisons seem to either be Damage-oriented or some sort of crowd control, be it paralyzed, unconscious and incapacitated. There is one there that is a truth serum, as well as one that gives a blinded condition (although it has to be inhaled).

I would love to see some that deafen, blind, frightened, exhausted, and have more ways to apply them. If these things applied as a normal poison is too strong, maybe limit it to things that are already UP, such as blowguns.

If I can temporarily blind you with a blow dart, every attack is a sneak attack!

I could also see an argument from a player that you could make a continuously poisonous weapon, such as the +1 enchantments from Pathfinder, that add a small amount poison damage (1d4, 1d6) on hit with no other effects, could be fine. Alternatively, maybe you use a typical MOBA mechanic of stacking, where the poison doesn't do much (other than give the poisoned condition), until the third hit, when something wonderful happens.

And, theoretically, if a herbalist has some of the poison, you could give them a chance of making an antidote.

[shadowkat678]

I certainly like the idea of adding more poisons that give conditions... the DMG poisons seem to either be Damage-oriented or some sort of crowd control, be it paralyzed, unconscious and incapacitated. There is one there that is a truth serum, as well as one that gives a blinded condition (although it has to be inhaled).

I would love to see some that deafen, blind, frightened, exhausted, and have more ways to apply them. If these things applied as a normal poison is too strong, maybe limit it to things that are already UP, such as blowguns.

If I can temporarily blind you with a blow dart, every attack is a sneak attack!

I could also see an argument from a player that you could make a continuously poisonous weapon, such as the +1 enchantments from Pathfinder, that add a small amount poison damage (1d4, 1d6) on hit with no other effects, could be fine. Alternatively, maybe you use a typical MOBA mechanic of stacking, where the poison doesn't do much (other than give the poisoned condition), until the third hit, when something wonderful happens.

And, theoretically, if a herbalist has some of the poison, you could give them a chance of making an antidote.

Yeah. Kinda what first made me start thinking about it is that I wanted some sleeping poison so I could use it with a blow dart. 3000 gold and it only had ten uses. With a DC of 15, giving a regular commoner a 1/4 chance of passing with no negative side effects whatsoever on a save. Seemed more than a little ridiculous.

[BurgerBeast]

Why add another system for tracking lethal effects when HPs is already there for that?

It's in response to the usual complaints about hp. If you're happy with hp, use them.

If you're not happy with some of the narrative consequences of hp: the level 20 Fighter jumps off a 100 foot tower, drinks purple worm poison or bottles of acid, ignores knives to the throat, and wades through (or walks over, if you prefer realism) a 20-foot wide river of lava; all because he knows he'll survive the hp damage, then this is one suggestion that you might like.

[shadowkat678]

Yeah. I agree that this is something really annoying. Especially how I consider HP to work:

IE: Knowing how to handle and survive instead of taking 15 sword thrusts to the gut. HP being how long you can last in a fight and how you can dodge and parry damage. Little hits and scraps and bruises would still bring down HP, but not because it's "damage" per se. The wading through lava and downing straight poison is really out there. I mean. There's dragons here, but I digress.

[jas61292]

Why add another system for tracking lethal effects when HPs is already there for that?

It's actually not really new. Shadows can already do this, just with Strength rather than Constitution. Obviously, the additional element of how Con affects HP makes it a bit more complex, but it's really not that much different, as strength drain can complicate things by messing with people's ability to carry their gear.

Not saying this is necessary an ideal method, but I would have no issue with it.

[Atalas]

I feel the pain on the potions. i'm playing an alchemist currently. Cleric of Mystra, primary duty is Church Alchemist, going to and fro to collect rare and often expensive alchemical ingredients. DM did change it so that depending on what specific inredients I have available I have to make a certain DC to make a specific potion. Gives me a list of possible potions each time I brew, I select one, and then see what happens. Ended up accidentally making a potion that causes bears to be sexually attracted to the drinker. Right now wondering if it would attract owlear's since we've ended up in the Feywild. And the party also has an Assassin Rogue, but they've been shying away from poisons lately since they are literally trying to make their character Batman in some fashion.

[shadowkat678]

I feel the pain on the potions. i'm playing an alchemist currently. Cleric of Mystra, primary duty is Church Alchemist, going to and fro to collect rare and often expensive alchemical ingredients. DM did change it so that depending on what specific inredients I have available I have to make a certain DC to make a specific potion. Gives me a list of possible potions each time I brew, I select one, and then see what happens. Ended up accidentally making a potion that causes bears to be sexually attracted to the drinker. Right now wondering if it would attract owlear's since we've ended up in the Feywild. And the party also has an Assassin Rogue, but they've been shying away from poisons lately since they are literally trying to make their character Batman in some fashion.

How did you deal with the individual ingredients?

I'm trying to come up for a price scale tables relying on rarity, CR, legality, potion vs poison, and plant vs animal ingredients, and also trying to figure out what kinds of things I should start out with on the list, the effects, where they'd be found, etc.

[Hypersmith]

I'm a little late, but my main wish about poisons is for them to have more varied effects. Damage, the poison condition are all well and good, but where are the poisons that make you appear dead, or ones that make you **** yourself to death, or make you sluggish (slow spell) or make you hyperactive till death (haste with worse consequences). Sure you can convey and flavor it, but it would be nice if they had something to back them besides some numbers and a rarely used condition.

[shadowkat678]

I'm a little late, but my main wish about poisons is for them to have more varied effects. Damage, the poison condition are all well and good, but where are the poisons that make you appear dead, or ones that make you **** yourself to death, or make you sluggish (slow spell) or make you hyperactive till death (haste with worse consequences). Sure you can convey and flavor it, but it would be nice if they had something to back them besides some numbers and a rarely used condition.

This. This is exactly what I meant when I said they seemed bland.

[Vogonjeltz]

Only if HP is meat. (Let's not have that debate now though)

I agree with the sentiment. It's worth noting, too, that dnd poison isn't necessarily like real world poison.

There's tons of lists of poisons. Treat each one as a spell with expensive material components and a skill check to unlock... Make the DC based off of the brewer's intelligence. Done.

Given that HP is an abstract, the poison damage just points to the fortitude of adventurers vis the regular population. Normal poisons typically aren't going to be enough to finish off a hero.

At any rate, the "better" poisons that would be used if you really really want to get your target are (DMG 257-258):

Purple Worm Poison (Injury)
Wyvern Poison (Injury)

Pale Tincture (Ingested)
Torpor (Ingested)
Midnight Tears (Ingested)

Essence of Ether (Inhaled)

Granted, they're all quite expensive, and may be prohibited by law in your setting. (DMG 258)