Mystic Theurge

[tedcahill2]

So if I'm reading some old threads right the Mystic Theurge, and it's loss of high level spells in favor of multiple low level spells, isn't good.

Is there an alternative?

I plan to change up the requirements of the class for one of my players, allowing them entry with 3rd level spells arcane or divine spells, and 1st level spells from the other. So he'll be able to go cleric 5 / wizard 1 / MT 10. Seems to me like being able to keep pace, albeit 1 level behind a straight cleric, in spell level, is going to be an improvement.

[KillianHawkeye]

So if I'm reading some old threads right the Mystic Theurge, and it's loss of high level spells in favor of multiple low level spells, isn't good.

Is there an alternative?

It's a trade-off. I don't know what else to tell you. I mean, the prevailing opinion on the inter-webs is that it's not as good as just getting full spellcasting in a single class, but my response to that is that it's pretty obvious that not every choice in D&D is about having maximum power.

Sometimes you just want to have a different kind of character, and a Mystic Theurge has a different kind and a different level of contribution than a full Cleric or full Wizard would have, but there's honestly nothing wrong with that. I think it's good for people to go into it knowing they won't be as powerful, but that doesn't necessarily mean that nobody should do it.

[Anxe]

Your change takes it from an interesting tradeoff that reduces depth but increases width to something that nearly every full casting class should do if they want to be fully optimized. If I want to make a caster, why would I not do your proposed change? I lose 1 casting level of my main class, but gain 11 in another!

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think perhaps the larger problem with the Mystic Theurge is that it demands the price upfront: you lose several caster levels right off the bat, and slowly make the loss up as increased versatility and staying power come into play. (At least in theory). But those first few levels are painful.

I think losing two caster levels is about fair, putting you a full spell level behind. However, I think I'd spread the penalty out over time. Allow a Wizard 1/Cleric 1 entry, say, and drop another caster level from each side around 5th. Or maybe lose one side at 3rd and the other at 6th. Something like that. Make it a bit more gradual, something that hits harder at higher levels than low.

But your version doesn't look too bad. Getting a second set of spells at a 5-level delay is probably worth a lot less than you could otherwise do with a 9/10 PrC. (That's your answer, by the way, Anxe. You're giving up PrC abilities)

[ZamielVanWeber]

Given that most Mystic Theurge builds are designed to be sneaky and do the 3rd/1st entry a 5th/1st seems fine to me.

[Necroticplague]

I plan to change up the requirements of the class for one of my players, allowing them entry with 3rd level spells arcane or divine spells, and 1st level spells from the other. So he'll be able to go cleric 5 / wizard 1 / MT 10. Seems to me like being able to keep pace, albeit 1 level behind a straight cleric, in spell level, is going to be an improvement.

Frankly, whenever MT comes up, I've always seen early entry tricks used to that this may as well be the case. Eldritch Corruption, Southern Magician, Earth Spell+Precocious Apprentice.....not too hard to only lose one level from your main progression.

[Inevitability]

As others have said, you're basically just raising the optimization floor of MT, which is a good thing when a class is just a newbie trap if used wrong.

[Psyren]

3.5 or Pathfinder? Because all the early entry tricks discussed in here thus far only work in the former.

[King539]

3.5 or Pathfinder? Because all the early entry tricks discussed in here thus far only work in the former.

In Pathfinder, there's the racial SLA trick.

[Gusmo]

In Pathfinder, there's the racial SLA trick.

The FAQ actually kills the racial SLA trick. There are other Pathfinder options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533332-Mystic-Theurge-Questions), though.

[DeTess]

So if I'm reading some old threads right the Mystic Theurge, and it's loss of high level spells in favor of multiple low level spells, isn't good.

Is there an alternative?

I plan to change up the requirements of the class for one of my players, allowing them entry with 3rd level spells arcane or divine spells, and 1st level spells from the other. So he'll be able to go cleric 5 / wizard 1 / MT 10. Seems to me like being able to keep pace, albeit 1 level behind a straight cleric, in spell level, is going to be an improvement.

Mystic Theurge not being good is relative. In a super min-maxed game where everyone plays a tier 1 it's not good. In a non-tier-1 game, it's not bad once you're at higher levels, though getting in might hurt a bit. If you want to look at another way to build a theurge, maybe see if you can/want to adapt ultimate magus for arcane/divine instead of arcane/arcane. The interesting thing about ultimate magus is that it has actual class features, unlike mystic theurge.

[Rebel7284]

Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/X 4

- No early entry.
- 18/20 wizard casting.
- 10/10 Ur Priest casting.
- sucks at much fewer levels

optimally, X is Incantatrix due to shared Iron will prerequisite.