When (if ever) does tripping become no longer worth it?

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

I was helping a friend build a melee character and we were considering getting Improved Trip for all its bonuses. We also were curious when (if ever) tripping is expected to no longer be worth it if melee combat is worth it. What say you?

[Anxe]

I've got a trip master in my campaign. Trip stopped being useful around... 17th level? It stays relevant for a long time.

[Nifft]

Yeah agree ^^^^^^

Tripping is one of the few things that a muggle can do to remain relevant through the mid levels.

If your DM allows it to work on fliers, it never gets old.

[SangoProduction]

As soon as fliers become the least bit relevant. Then you are kinda pointless.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Mostly when the DM decides. If they spam massive opponents with obscene strength scores and huge BAB off their HD it will not take very long. If they prefer class leveled/advanced smaller opponents then you can be useful all the way up to 20.

[OldTrees1]

As soon as fliers become the least bit relevant. Then you are kinda pointless.

Have you forgotten to trip(stall) the fliers?

Warning: While Trip can be used against flying enemies by default, some exceptions exist.

[Hunter Noventa]

Mostly when the DM decides. If they spam massive opponents with obscene strength scores and huge BAB off their HD it will not take very long. If they prefer class leveled/advanced smaller opponents then you can be useful all the way up to 20.

Pretty much this. Once you stop fighting humanoid opponents of similar size, the success rate of trip begins to drop drastically.

[Kayblis]

Tripping is one of the best options for melee combat. Its falling point depends mostly on the campaign - a very humanoid-focused game where most enemies aren't bigger than Large will favor tripping builds because almost everything is prone(heh) to getting tripped and the enemy's numbers don't get crazy without optimization. By the same coin, campaigns that focus on magical beasts, otherworldly creatures and giant monsters will quickly turn tripping ineffective. Talk with your DM about what to expect in general, as a "frontier of discovery" kind of game is very different from a "kingdom/organization intrigue" kind of game even though they can happen on the same world.

Also, you can trip winged flying enemies. You pull their wings closed/locked the same way you would a human's legs. The untrippable kind is flying enemies with magical flying, which doesn't rely on appendages. In short, if it's a limb of some sort that's preventing the creature from kissing the ground, you can trip it.

Edit: If you want to focus a bit more on tripping, the Knockdown feat from Sword and Fist helps you a lot. This feat lets you make a trip attempt whenever you deal 10 or more damage to an enemy, so you can trip after attacking(and, if successful, get a second free attack thanks to Imp Trip). This is great if you're not sure you can make the check, as you don't just waste an attack if you fail the attempt - and if you do, it's still free damage.

[SangoProduction]

Have you forgotten to trip(stall) the fliers?

Warning: While Trip can be used against flying enemies by default, some exceptions exist.

OK. Cool. Didn't know you could do that in 3.5. Flyers in PF are granted full immunity though. In 3.5 those with perfect maneuverability and magical flight have immunity.

[DeTess]

If you can use ToB, maybe also check out the Swordsage class. It gets access to the setting sun discipline, which includes a number of maneuvers that are based around tripping, and that just might help keeping tripping relevant for longer.

[Goaty14]

When/If tripping no longer is worth it, what's the 2nd best mundane BFC?

[Anxe]

Edit: If you want to focus a bit more on tripping, the Knockdown feat from Sword and Fist helps you a lot. This feat lets you make a trip attempt whenever you deal 10 or more damage to an enemy, so you can trip after attacking(and, if successful, get a second free attack thanks to Imp Trip). This is great if you're not sure you can make the check, as you don't just waste an attack if you fail the attempt - and if you do, it's still free damage.

There was some errata on that. You can't combine Knockdown and Improved Trip anymore. You can trip and then attack or you can attack and then trip, but not attack, trip, and attack.

For the next best mundane BFC... Probably Dungeoncrasher Fighter Bull Rush build?

[SirNibbles]

As soon as enemies have the Prone Attack feat (Complete Warrior, page 103), which allows them to stand as a free action if they attack successfully and removes all penalties for being prone (attackers don't get a +4 in melee and your attacks don't take a -4; you still get the +4 AC against ranged attacks, so it's like a free +4 AC).

[Azoth]

OK. Cool. Didn't know you could do that in 3.5. Flyers in PF are granted full immunity though. In 3.5 those with perfect maneuverability and magical flight have immunity.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/dragoncatch-guisarme/

The Dragoncatch-guisarme says Hi! If it flies via wings, you can trip it. If your DM is cool with "custom" magic items, the ability to trip and entangle flying enemies is only 5K market value.

13,308 base price. -8K for +1 Dragon Bane. -308 MW Guisarme. 5000 remaining cost.

[BassoonHero]

In 3.5 those with perfect maneuverability and magical flight have immunity.

Where is this rule?

[OldTrees1]

Where is this rule?

The Rules Article (Rules of the Game: All About Movement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a)) that mentioned that Trip attempts vs Fliers cause them to stall, had this section:


Trip

Most creature using wings or other appendages to fly can be tripped. Incorporeal creatures with perfect maneuverability, and creatures that don't rely on their limbs to fly cannot be tripped when in flight.

Resolving the Trip Attempt: The attacker makes a Strength check. The defender can oppose the attempt with a Strength check or a Dexterity check. Each creature gets a bonus based on its maneuverability rating, as follows: perfect +12, good maneuverability +8, average +4, poor +0, clumsy -4.

Stability bonuses do not apply in aerial overruns.

Trip Results: A successful trip forces the defender to stall (even if the tripped creature doesn't have a minimum forward speed) rather than knocking the defender prone.

[BassoonHero]

Oh, I remember that article. But there's nothing in the rules, is there? Those suggested rules were just invented for the article, right?

[OldTrees1]

Oh, I remember that article. But there's nothing in the rules, is there? Those suggested rules were just invented for the article, right?

A) That Article was intended to be Rules. If you don't include that source then see B.

B) There is the minimum forward speed requirement in the rules. Trip RAW (inflicts the Prone status and the penalties for the Prone status) applies in the absence of a ruling. Movement being interrupted by the penalties of the Prone condition would result in failing to reach the minimum forward speed. So Trip will still cause flying creatures to stall.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Magical / perfect maneuverability flight absolutely shuts it down, but there are other things that can. By mid levels or so (like 10+), any ground-based melee monsters will tend to be so large and strong that tripping is impossible or possible but tough to do.
Anything that can teleport at will (tons of outsiders) or as a swift (anklets of translocation for humanoids w/ gear) can simply port out of reach and stand up, and I've seen about a 50/50 split in DMs who'll keep them prone after teleporting vs. ones who'll let them teleport into standing position for free.

And it really depends how knowledgeable the DM is about tripping. I use it a lot as a player, so needless to say my players -- both melee people focused on tripping -- gripe often about how a lot of enemies trivialize their technique. They get plenty of things to trip, the exceptions just stand out to them...but yeah, I know pretty well how to counter it inexpensively. Like Boots of Agile Leaping in MIC. 600 gp (ie, 900 gp to add to other boots) and 5 balance ranks is all you need to stand up w/o provoking and have the option of doing it as a swift action. The two skill tricks help as well, and there's the Free Stand use of Tumble (DC 35), and so on... So even humanoids with class levels will eventually be less worthwhile to trip if the DM knows that stuff.


When/If tripping no longer is worth it, what's the 2nd best mundane BFC?

Probably the Stand Still feat. It means you do no damage and all it does is keep them in that spot, but sometimes that's worth it. And it works on anything you can hit and do heavy damage to (since damage that'd be dealt determines the save DC).
Grappling works as BFC against just one target you need to keep in place. If you can acquire extra limbs (are Aberrant Bloodline feats still "mundane"?) and a huge grapple modifier, you could take -20 to hold a foe in a limb w/o being treated as grappled yourself and just Katamari up as many enemies as you have limbs. Of course grapple gets shut down my magic and big brutes at higher levels even worse than tripping.

[Pex]

When the DM makes it so. No opponent exists without the DM's permission. The player has no control over who the enemies are. It is irrelevant how many large flying four legged creatures exist in the Monster Manual. The relevancy is how many appear in the game that is being played. Even a lich can be tripped.

[SangoProduction]

Aerial Trip (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oEH4xOaNLWYf4bW1tprKx-BIJVoiSLW2iWpwc-h7o8w/edit#heading=h.19sp45fgn3sr)from Spheres of Might would work to trip flyers in PF. Ranged Trip as well, kinda, if you really wanted to burn a bunch of feats.

[Âmesang]

There was some errata on that. You can't combine Knockdown and Improved Trip anymore. You can trip and then attack or you can attack and then trip, but not attack, trip, and attack.
Wasn't that un-errated with Deities and Demigods and the subsequent SRD?

[Anxe]

Wasn't that un-errated with Deities and Demigods and the subsequent SRD?

I think that's an oversight. Deities and Demigods wasn't errated and came into 3.5 with old errors from 3.0. They just forgot to include the errata on Knockdown when moving it over from Deities and Demigods instead of remembering errata when redoing the 3.0 "X and X" splat books as the Complete series.

[Âmesang]

Personally I'd keep the oversight as-is, 'cause otherwise (to me) it feels a lot like "non-spellcasters can't have nice things." :smalltongue: